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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Who kisses the Gospel?
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
During the celebration of the Eucharist, the Deacon is ordinarily charged with reading the Gospel. During a service with a Deacon, the Deacon would return the Gospel to the celebrating Priest who would kiss it before closing it.
In a service without a Deacon, in which a priest other than the Presider, reads the Gospel, is it alright if that priest kisses the Gospel? Or is it the Celebrant who must kiss the Gospel?
Please answer this liturgical inquiry.
[ 29. August 2009, 11:14: Message edited by: dj_ordinaire ]
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
The deacon/priest reading it would always kiss it apart from when the Bishop is celebrating.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Swick
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# 8773
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Posted
I've observed that deacons don't usually kiss the gospel book, while about half of the priests doing the reading do so; as far as which priest does the kissing, it's whoever does the reading.
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Laurie17
Shipmate
# 14889
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Posted
I'd say," You go ahead, kiss it as much as you feel like !"
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when thee touched my heart
I were undone like dropped blossom
Daw'r ffordd yn glir yn araf deg.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Point 175:
quote:
When the reading is concluded, [the deacon] says the acclamation Verbum Domini (The gospel of the Lord), and all respond, Laus tibi, Christe (Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ). He then venerates the book with a kiss, saying privately, Per evangelica dicta (May the words of the gospel), and returns to the priest's side.
When the deacon is assisting the Bishop, he carries the book to him to be kissed, or else kisses it himself, saying quietly, Per evangelica dicta dicta (May the words of the gospel). In more solemn celebrations, as the occasion suggests, a Bishop may impart a blessing to the people with the Book of the Gospels.
Thurible
[ 01. July 2009, 15:15: Message edited by: Thurible ]
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Surely a priest reading the Gospel is functioning in his or her diaconal orders at that time?
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
What?
The GIRM does not operate according to that kind of logic. You do liturgically that which is proper to your order. When a deacon is ordained priest, he doesn't sometimes do diaconal things, just for the sake of showing he was ordained a deacon.
And a priest never fulfills the role of a deacon when following the GIRM. It may well happen in the old rite, but not in the new.
I know many Anglicans hold on to these notions, but the Roman Rite does not.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Patrick the less saintly
Shipmate
# 14355
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Posted
How very odd. The liturgical deacon at my shack is always a priest. All priests have diaconal orders, why shouldn't they act diaconally when there is a need? It makes infinitely more sense than having a small battalion of assisting priests. How it boils down at ASMS:
1 priest (this used to happen frequently but hasn't since a second curate was added: the celebrant reads the gospel and kisses it.
2 priests: the priest acting as deacon reads the gospel and kisses it.
3 priests: no change from the above, the third priest sits in the quire and performs not liturgical function, as the subdeacon is always a layperson.
I'm pretty sure Fortescue calls for the gospel book to be open when kissed, but it's invariably closed. We're a very modern parish, even if we don't buy into the bizarrely convoluted rules of GIRM. Actually, the Gospel procession has always struck me as the most farcical part of the modern Roman rite: the Gospel is invariably read from an ambo within or directly in front of the chancel, meaning that the procession is seldom more than a few meters long. For Anglicans, accustomed to having the Gospel read or chanted in the midst of the people (and, thus, in the middle of the nave), this doesn't look like much of a procession at all, more like that funny little dance the Lord Chancellor used to do when he wanted to speak in the Lords.
I can just imagine this dialogue:
Deacon: It's time for the gospel procession!
Naïve altar boy: Wither shall we proceed?
Deacon: thither! points to ambo
All shuffle three steps to the side.
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'[Your religion consists of] antiquarian culturally refined pseudo-Anglicanism'— Triple Tiara
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Forthview
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# 12376
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Posted
What about Cardinal deacons and in particular those who assist the pope at solemn ceremonies ?
Aren't those deacons usually also bishops ?
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
In our Anglo-Catholic parish, I made a point of watching for this one Sunday at Solemn Mass, as for some reason I had this same question on my mind. The deacon of the Mass is always a priest unless we've got a seminarian who has been ordained to the diaconate. Typically the priest serving as deacon finishes the Gospel, and during the "Praise to you, Lord Christ" response, he steps to his right and faces the center of the aisle, clearing the way for the subdeacon to take the book to the celebrant; the subdeacon points to the beginning of the Gospel of the day and holds the book up for the celebrant to kiss. Then the subdeacon closes the book and latches it, and the MC comes to take it away to the credence table.
So our deacon-of-the-Mass doesn't kiss it, but the celebrant does.
At sung Mass, the celebrant reads the Gospel at the ambo and kisses the book afterward.
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Swick
Shipmate
# 8773
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Posted
As I understand it, a priest does the work of a deacon if there is no deacon serving at the altar. He (or she) however is not somehow functioning in their diaconal order, he is no longer a deacon, he's a priest. There is confusion over this, with some priests wearing their stoles diagonally when functioning as a deacon for another priest--just ask a vocational deacon what she or he thinks of this. There have been proposals for direct ordination to the priesthood (skipping the diaconal period), but the current practice seems pretty well entrenched.
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Oblatus
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# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Swick:
There is confusion over this, with some priests wearing their stoles diagonally when functioning as a deacon for another priest--just ask a vocational deacon what she or he thinks of this.
Some priests do this in places where an older ceremonial is followed (Tridentine or Anglo-Catholic) and are doing it because that's what the customary says to do (wear the stole diagonally, and wear a dalmatic) when serving as deacon of the Mass. No offense to vocational deacons is meant.
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Swick
Shipmate
# 8773
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Posted
Oh I'm certain that priests wearing stoles diagonally mean no offense, this pratice has a certain logic: since the priest is functioning as a deacon, wearing the stole as a deacon makes sense; this was the practice in my church for years until we had a vocational deacon who beat us with his maniple until we stopped!
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
What about Cardinal deacons and in particular those who assist the pope at solemn ceremonies ?
Aren't those deacons usually also bishops ?
They don't do the liturgical function of deacons, though. In the sense that they are acting as deacons, they are deacons at the throne. In other words, assistants to the pope. Since Cardinal deacons are always heads of Roman dicasteries, this is rather apt. For the liturgy, however, you will always find actual deacons doing the liturgical diaconal functions.
It always strikes me as rather odd how some Anglo-Catholics, whose ceremonial is derived not from the Book of Common Prayer but from former editions of the Roman Missal, now canonise those Roman Missals and then carp from their trenches at how shocking the Roman Rite has become. Very odd indeed.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Unless the celebrant is a bishop.
But then again, it's definitely NOT pre-Vatican II for a layman not to read the Gospel. So I guess you could make up the other rules as well, if you wished.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
The Gospel Book is venerated at a number of points in the Byzatine Rite. The people all venerate it after the Resurrection Gospel at Matins.
During the Divine Liturgy, the Gospel book is venerated by the deacon just before they set off for the Lesser Entrance, while the priest venerates the Holy Table; (in the absence of a deacon, the priest venerates both). Then, immediately prior to the Lesser Entrance itself, if there is a deacon, he takes it to the priest at this point to venerate it. If the bishop is serving, he also kisses it at this point and then bows down before it at the "O Come, let us worship and fall down before Christ", before he blesses the people in the four directions, as may be seen here.
I don't recall there being any veneration of the Gospel Book at the reading of the Gospel itself, although I may be misremembering.
I agree with Triple Tiara about liturgical functions. The order to which somebody is ordained is manifest most of all in the Eucharistic assembly of the people of God. For him to lay that aside in order to do pretend to be something else is an overturning of his order within the life of the Body of Christ. It doesn't make sense.
The diaconate is one degree of priesthood, as are the presbyterate, the subdiaconate, and so forth, and the fullness thereof lies in the episcopate, but the orders are complementary and disctinct. When a priest reads the Gospel, he does it from the Royal Doors, (with all that this signifies), and faces the people, blessing them with the Book afterwards. The deacon, by contrast, does so facing within the altar, often from the midst of the people, and does not bless. These differences have meaning that stems from the order of the one proclaiming. A priest proclaims the Gospel as a priest and is not pretending to be anything else.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Taking it back to the celebrant is pre-Vatican 2.
Not realizing that, I kissed my prayer book when I read the Gospel from the front pew at a Low Mass.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Taking it back to the celebrant is pre-Vatican 2.
Not realizing that, I kissed my prayer book when I read the Gospel from the front pew at a Low Mass.
You prayer book society folks have an unhealthy obsession with the 1662...
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Not here! We're a mostly Anglo-Catholic bunch who lobby for the continued use of the Canadian 1962 prayer book.
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Patrick the less saintly
Shipmate
# 14355
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Posted
The difference, Cyprian, is that you are talking about a different tradition, whilst our Papist friend with the jeweled hat is talking about vain things fondly invented and, furthermore, adopting his characteristically superior tone to question why others do not join him in doing things his vain way.
The answer, of course, is that others, not coming from his own tradition, do not feel bound by GIRM, which is has all the aesthetic appeal of a interoffice memo. For those of us not bound by the rulings of the Roman Pontiff, there is no reason to adopt the whims of that document, which is uninspired even in prose style and which advances no arguments, historical, theological or aesthetic in favour of its own existence but commands all to follow it unquestioningly. It is, thus, a document of stupefying boredom and recourse to it makes for equally dull discussions. It is only ever pulled out by the sort of pharisaical Roman Catholic who is convinced that members of other 'ecclesial communities' are damned and reprobate. Why such Roman Catholics, secure in their own sanctimony, should endanger their souls by engaging in intercourse with the faithless remains a great mystery.
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'[Your religion consists of] antiquarian culturally refined pseudo-Anglicanism'— Triple Tiara
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
The difference, Cyprian, is that you are talking about a different tradition, whilst our Papist friend with the jeweled hat is talking about vain things fondly invented and, furthermore, adopting his characteristically superior tone to question why others do not join him in doing things his vain way.
No - Triple Tiara is a Catholic, he isn't talking about vain things fondly invented, he's talking about Catholic Ritual.
I think you'll find that you are talking about vain things fondly invented!
If you want to call Vatican II styles of worship vain and fondly invented then you my friend are in a another league. Percy Dearmer sat down one day with a nice spliff and imagined what it could be like to worship in pre-reformation times and then scrawled all over a handkerchief what he imagined medieval worship would look like, implemented it in his own parish, became some Monsignor (or whatever the Protestant equivalent is) and passed it off as medieval worship. Want to see what medieval worship really looked like? Go to Corpus Christi Maiden Lane for a Low Mass one evening.
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Hell hath no fury like a teenager scorned.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
That was crossposted with Max
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Hell hath no fury like a teenager scorned.
Triple Tiara is also greatly advanced in age (he's at least twice as old as me) than both of us.
He knows more than you Patrick.
Max.
This was crossposted with Triple-the-age-of-Max Tiara ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 01. July 2009, 23:22: Message edited by: Max. ]
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
You never listen to me though.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
You never listen to me though.
Or do I?
Just because I argue with you in real life doesn't mean I don't blurt your arguments out in later conversations in other places simply to make myself sound cleverer than I actually am!
I was "middle ground" in my Liturgy class, there were people crazier than me on both sides.
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
I refuse to take credit for anything you say in Heythrop liturgy classes. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
I refuse to take credit for anything you say in Heythrop liturgy classes.
And that's why it's not plagiarism
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
The difference, Cyprian, is that you are talking about a different tradition, whilst our Papist friend with the jeweled hat is talking about vain things fondly invented and, furthermore, adopting his characteristically superior tone to question why others do not join him in doing things his vain way.
No - Triple Tiara is a Catholic, he isn't talking about vain things fondly invented, he's talking about Catholic Ritual.
I think you'll find that you are talking about vain things fondly invented!
If you want to call Vatican II styles of worship vain and fondly invented then you my friend are in a another league. Percy Dearmer sat down one day with a nice spliff and imagined what it could be like to worship in pre-reformation times and then scrawled all over a handkerchief what he imagined medieval worship would look like, implemented it in his own parish, became some Monsignor (or whatever the Protestant equivalent is) and passed it off as medieval worship.
You've just made that up.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
Go away.
It's just as much bollocks as "Blessed" Percy's descriptions of medieval worship.
There is not historical evidence for any of them.
All Saint's York Street does not portray what the average pre-reformation worship would've looked like.
The Tridentine Mass does.
And modern Catholic Worship is the closest we have to early Christian Worship.
Max.
[ 02. July 2009, 00:17: Message edited by: Max. ]
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Go away.
It's just as much bollocks as "Blessed" Percy's descriptions of medieval worship.
There is not historical evidence for any of them.
All Saint's York Street does not portray what the average pre-reformation worship would've looked like.
The Tridentine Mass does.
And modern Catholic Worship is the closest we have to early Christian Worship.
Max.
You've missed the point. Restoring mediaeval worship was never what he was about. Your protrayal of his intention as such is misrepresentation, hence my earlier post.
ETA that I don't know what ASNS has to do with anything. They also don't claim mkediaeval worship. Perhaps you're confused because it's a mediaeval building. Their services are English Missal text with local ceremonial. Nothing Dearmerite about it.
[ 02. July 2009, 00:35: Message edited by: Cyprian ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
And modern Catholic Worship is the closest we have to early Christian Worship.
You say that as though it's a good thing. Perhaps you think it is, and that's fine.
my personal view is that it is important for Christians to worship in a form that carries elements of the life of the Church from earliest times up until the present day, and not something that is representative of a snapshot of any one particular moment in time. The church is not stagnant and its worship should not be stagnant. There should certainly not be an attempt to throw away what we have learnt over the past 2000 years so that we can return to a time in the past. That doesn't sit well with me.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Want to see what medieval worship really looked like? Go to Corpus Christi Maiden Lane for a Low Mass one evening.
Point of Order? For those of us in the Colonies what is Corpus Christi Maiden Lane and what is their Low Mass in an evening like?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Patrick the less saintly
Shipmate
# 14355
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Posted
Firstly, of course, Dr Dearmer did not make up the contents of the Parson's Handbook. He built it upon the research of the finest English liturgists of the era. If anything was made up (a possibility of which he was acutely aware), it was by them, not him.
Secondly, there is a world of difference between having liturgical opinions based on liturgy, theology and aesthetics and having liturgical opinions based on authority and getting indignant when other people don't submit to that authority. I would have more respect, infinitely more respect, for the acolytes of GIRM if they defended their sacred text for its merits, rather than merely saying that it what they have been ordered to use. The former is a thinking man's response, the latter is not.
And, incidentally, there is no Protestant, or, indeed, Anglican, equivalent of a monsignor. Dr Dearmer was a canon of Westminster Abbey.
[ 02. July 2009, 03:07: Message edited by: Patrick the less saintly ]
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'[Your religion consists of] antiquarian culturally refined pseudo-Anglicanism'— Triple Tiara
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Dubious Thomas
Shipmate
# 10144
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
And modern Catholic Worship is the closest we have to early Christian Worship.
Max.
And you know this, how?
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שפך חמתך אל־הגוים אשר לא־ידעוך
Psalm 79:6
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CuppaT
Shipmate
# 10523
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Posted
Who kisses the Gospel?
I do. Nearly every Matins service.
And at home every time I pick up or put down my Bible, nearly.
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Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see that you cannot bear it any longer, draw back a little and have a cup of tea.
~Elder Sophrony
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
It seems to me a bit odd to describe the GIRM more or less as 'vain imaginings'.The worship style of ASMS owes much to the earlier rubrics of the Roman Missal and many anglo catholics would say that their worship most approximates to that of the Universal church when it mirrors that of the Roman Missal.
The present GIRM is just as much as the Missal of Pius V the work of the Catholic church as a whole.Whilst one may disagree with certain of its conclusions and even hope to change them,the GIRM has to be recognized as a work of many people who are not only of but also in the Catholic church and represents a sincere attempt at 'aggiornamento' of the 16th Century rite.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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Foaming Draught
The Low in Low Church
# 9134
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
places where an older ceremonial is followed (Tridentine or Anglo-Catholic)
There's no such thing as older Anglo-Catholic ceremonial, since it's all a late 19thC innovation dreamed up by a bunch of the sort of chaps about whom we're supposed to limit our comments to Dead Horses.
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Australians all let us ring Joyce
For she is young and free
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
It is only ever pulled out by the sort of pharisaical Roman Catholic who is convinced that members of other 'ecclesial communities' are damned and reprobate.
I'm not a Catholic and I don't think you're necessarily damned.
quote:
Originally posted by Foaming Draught:
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
places where an older ceremonial is followed (Tridentine or Anglo-Catholic)
There's no such thing as older Anglo-Catholic ceremonial, since it's all a late 19thC innovation dreamed up by a bunch of the sort of chaps about whom we're supposed to limit our comments to Dead Horses.
Abortionists?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Do you not sleep?
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Foaming Draught
The Low in Low Church
# 9134
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
And modern Catholic Worship is the closest we have to early Christian Worship.
The Open Brethren, of blessèd (to me) memory, claimed much the same thing, but with more convincing NT testimony.
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Australians all let us ring Joyce
For she is young and free
Posts: 8661 | From: Et in Australia Ego | Registered: Feb 2005
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
Secondly, there is a world of difference between having liturgical opinions based on liturgy, theology and aesthetics and having liturgical opinions based on authority and getting indignant when other people don't submit to that authority. I would have more respect, infinitely more respect, for the acolytes of GIRM if they defended their sacred text for its merits, rather than merely saying that it what they have been ordered to use. The former is a thinking man's response, the latter is not.
And there in one (wordy) paragraph is the difference between protestant and Catholic understanding of liturgy. Far from being blind followers of liturgical fascism, or fashion, those who are Catholic want to do as the Church does. Protestants want to make it up for themselves, so they can do whatever they wish, and then describe it as theological, aesthetical and liturgical. And award themselves the acolade of being thinking men.
Ah! The perdition in the Scriptures reserved for those who think themselves wise and learned (otherwise known as "thinking men").
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
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Pommie Mick
Shipmate
# 12794
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Posted
Yeah, and who gets to say what the church does.
Posts: 185 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2007
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Foaming Draught
The Low in Low Church
# 9134
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Posted
Don't be ridiculous, it's what a handful of Italians sprinkled with the (very) odd German or African do, it has nothing in common with anything resembling an apostolic faith or way of worship. There is no reliable early church handbook for liturgy, so everything on which apparatchiks rely is post big-headed Ignatius or later.
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Australians all let us ring Joyce
For she is young and free
Posts: 8661 | From: Et in Australia Ego | Registered: Feb 2005
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
FD, sometimes you make me laugh (I assume this is your intention). Sometimes you're just boring. Today falls into the latter category, I'm afraid.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Foaming Draught:
Don't be ridiculous, it's what a handful of Italians sprinkled with the (very) odd German or African do, it has nothing in common with anything resembling an apostolic faith or way of worship. There is no reliable early church handbook for liturgy, so everything on which apparatchiks rely is post big-headed Ignatius or later.
Well there is actually. It's called "Worship" and it's by Keith Pecklers.
Jungmann shouldn't be ignored either.
Oh yes, the Bible is quite a good resource for tracing back what early Church worship was like, it's a good read when you read it along side Pecklers and Jungmann. Everything kind of just "fits" into place.
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
it's by Keith Pecklers.
I hadn't realised people were called Keith in the first and second centuries...
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Max.
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# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Want to see what medieval worship really looked like? Go to Corpus Christi Maiden Lane for a Low Mass one evening.
Point of Order? For those of us in the Colonies what is Corpus Christi Maiden Lane and what is their Low Mass in an evening like?
Corpus Christi Maiden lane is what EWTN should be. It's a church which represents the entire spectrum of Catholicism, not a tiny minority of it.
They do a wonderful Ordinary Form mass in English, with good old fashioned hymn singing and intelligent preaching (often drawing from sources such as Eastenders and Doctor who) and they also do a very friendly Tridentine Mass in which all feel welcome (unlike the oratory where one is likely to get shouted at by a crazy person for not standing/sitting/kneeling/making the sign of the cross in the correct place).
Their low mass is extraordinary form but often with some hymns out of Hymns Old and New.
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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