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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Who kisses the Gospel?
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
it's by Keith Pecklers.
I hadn't realised people were called Keith in the first and second centuries...
Thurible
If one of Jesus's best friends was called Rufus then I'm sure there were guys called "Keith" in those days too!
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pommie Mick:
Yeah, and who gets to say what the church does.
Why, the Church of course.
If you want to argue about what that means, it's an ecclesiological and theological point not a liturgical one.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Pommie Mick
Shipmate
# 12794
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Posted
I though it was about why we do particular things in the liturgy!
Posts: 185 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2007
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Foaming Draught
The Low in Low Church
# 9134
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Posted
It might be ecclesiological, but there's nary a sliver of theology in the nonsense.
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Australians all let us ring Joyce
For she is young and free
Posts: 8661 | From: Et in Australia Ego | Registered: Feb 2005
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
When I actually hear some theology from you, instead of trite shite, I will take your word about what is or is not theological.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Pommie Mick
Shipmate
# 12794
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Posted
ahhh... theology rather than circular arguments?
Posts: 185 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Jul 2007
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
I see what you are saying to me. I should have been clearer - my post above is condescending and sidestepping as it stands. Indeed, circular.
I was intending to indicate the place the argument belongs (Purgatory rather than Eccles), so as to avoid some huge derailment here by the time-honoured spat about what the Church is.
I knew in my head what I was saying, honest!
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Indeed TT - please keep personal accusations about people only ever posting 'trite shite' to where they belong. And, I know I've been on me hols, but please resist the temptation to Junior Host... thanks!
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Fifi
Shipmate
# 8151
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Corpus Christi Maiden lane is what EWTN should be. It's a church which represents the entire spectrum of Catholicism, not a tiny minority of it.
They do a wonderful Ordinary Form mass in English, with good old fashioned hymn singing and intelligent preaching . . . .
The Parish Priest is an ex Anglican, so it's only to be expected . . .
Posts: 591 | From: Here | Registered: Aug 2004
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fifi:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Corpus Christi Maiden lane is what EWTN should be. It's a church which represents the entire spectrum of Catholicism, not a tiny minority of it.
They do a wonderful Ordinary Form mass in English, with good old fashioned hymn singing and intelligent preaching . . . .
The Parish Priest is an ex Anglican, so it's only to be expected . . .
Indeed he is. The best ones always are ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
Am I the only one who can't get this site to do anything?
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
What are you trying to make it do?
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cyprian:
Am I the only one who can't get this site to do anything?
Damnit. I have the same problem.
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
What are you trying to make it do?
Work.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
Yum
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
Want to see what medieval worship really looked like? Go to Corpus Christi Maiden Lane for a Low Mass one evening.
Point of Order? For those of us in the Colonies what is Corpus Christi Maiden Lane and what is their Low Mass in an evening like?
Corpus Christi Maiden lane is what EWTN should be. It's a church which represents the entire spectrum of Catholicism, not a tiny minority of it.
They do a wonderful Ordinary Form mass in English, with good old fashioned hymn singing and intelligent preaching (often drawing from sources such as Eastenders and Doctor who) and they also do a very friendly Tridentine Mass in which all feel welcome (unlike the oratory where one is likely to get shouted at by a crazy person for not standing/sitting/kneeling/making the sign of the cross in the correct place).
Their low mass is extraordinary form but often with some hymns out of Hymns Old and New.
Max.
Sorry to continue the tangent, but how does this differ from EWTN? I suppose I would have to assist with Mass there for awhile before seeing the differences?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
OP - I agree with Triple Tiara's comments way back.
Furthermore, there is something missing when there is no deacon at the mass and this should be apparent. The seat to the president's immediate left should be vacant although an assisting priest, of course, does the deacon's jobs. A presbyter is no longer a deacon, except in the general sense of service, because order is order.
A further point about opening hands at the apostolic greeting ("The Lord be with you"). This is a presidential gesture not a priestly gesture. Only the president should do this. This means that whenever he presides at a liturgy, the deacon should do this.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
sorry above - "seat to the right " as we know - I always have trouble with that.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
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Patrick the less saintly
Shipmate
# 14355
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
Secondly, there is a world of difference between having liturgical opinions based on liturgy, theology and aesthetics and having liturgical opinions based on authority and getting indignant when other people don't submit to that authority. I would have more respect, infinitely more respect, for the acolytes of GIRM if they defended their sacred text for its merits, rather than merely saying that it what they have been ordered to use. The former is a thinking man's response, the latter is not.
And there in one (wordy) paragraph is the difference between protestant and Catholic understanding of liturgy. Far from being blind followers of liturgical fascism, or fashion, those who are Catholic want to do as the Church does. Protestants want to make it up for themselves, so they can do whatever they wish, and then describe it as theological, aesthetical and liturgical.
Damn. I had hoped Max was going to make this point, as he purports to be an admired of Hans Küng, who argues that authority is not enough, whether it is the authority ascribed to the Bible by Protestants, the authority ascribed to tradition by the Eastern Orthodox or the authority ascribed to the Magisterium by Roman Catholics, with the last, unsurprisingly, being his particular bugbear. He doesn't mention the peculiarly Anglican tripos of scripture, tradition and reason.
That point is a little less effective now, as I suppose you probably sided with the Vatican thought police against Fr Küng.
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'[Your religion consists of] antiquarian culturally refined pseudo-Anglicanism'— Triple Tiara
Posts: 1802 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2008
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cyprian:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
What are you trying to make it do?
Work.
Right. It's working fine for me in IE.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by Cyprian:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
What are you trying to make it do?
Work.
Right. It's working fine for me in IE.
I've tried in IE and Firefox and can only get the home page. They must have an Orthodox filter on their site.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
A presbyter is no longer a deacon, except in the general sense of service, because order is order.
So has the theology, along with the practice, of a bishop wearing dalmatic under his chasuble been abrogated? Tatty as it looks, it does make that point of 'once a deacon, always a deacon'. And I thought the Pope was 'servant of the servants of God'.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dubious Thomas:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
And modern Catholic Worship is the closest we have to early Christian Worship.
Max.
And you know this, how?
He sat down one day with a nice spliff (or was it a large gin and bitter lemon) and imagined what it could be like to worship in early Christian times and then scrawled all over a handkerchief what he imagined early Christian worship would look like, got a post as a worship leader, and passed it off as early Christian worship.
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Yes, but a bishop always wears a chasuble over the dalmatic. The point is the next order supercedes and subsumes the lower order. The bishop does not appear wearing just a dalmatic.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cyprian:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by Cyprian:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
What are you trying to make it do?
Work.
Right. It's working fine for me in IE.
I've tried in IE and Firefox and can only get the home page. They must have an Orthodox filter on their site.
I think it's more likely it's a Mac filter*, stop the guys at the seminary and at Heythrop being able to see what's on their website
*It's a well known fact that academics use Apple Macs, whilst the great unwashed use PeeCees
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
quote:
Originally posted by Cyprian:
Am I the only one who can't get this site to do anything?
Damnit. I have the same problem.
Max.
Works for my PC in Chrome and Firefox...
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
A presbyter is no longer a deacon, except in the general sense of service, because order is order.
So has the theology, along with the practice, of a bishop wearing dalmatic under his chasuble been abrogated? Tatty as it looks, it does make that point of 'once a deacon, always a deacon'. And I thought the Pope was 'servant of the servants of God'.
Thanks, Triple T replies for me above.
Anglicans get very confused about the nature of the nature of order because we are obsessed with the "threefold character" to the detriment of other ways of understanding. Order and ministry are different things. Of course a bishop is servant but he no longer of the order of deacons nor of presbyters. Looking at it the other way, he now holds the fullness of priesthood, which he shares in part with his presbyterate.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
A presbyter is no longer a deacon, except in the general sense of service, because order is order.
So has the theology, along with the practice, of a bishop wearing dalmatic under his chasuble been abrogated? Tatty as it looks, it does make that point of 'once a deacon, always a deacon'. And I thought the Pope was 'servant of the servants of God'.
Thanks, Triple T replies for me above.
Anglicans get very confused about the nature of the nature of order because we are obsessed with the "threefold character" to the detriment of other ways of understanding. Order and ministry are different things. Of course a bishop is servant but he no longer of the order of deacons nor of presbyters. Looking at it the other way, he now holds the fullness of priesthood, which he shares in part with his presbyterate.
That makes sense. In that case, your earlier comment is misleading. A presbyter might be no longer 'only' a deacon; but the presbyterate includes the diaconate. It's not as if the priest hands back his/her deacon's letters of orders a year later.
But this is off-topic and purgatorial.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Unless the celebrant is a bishop.
But then again, it's definitely NOT pre-Vatican II for a layman not to read the Gospel. So I guess you could make up the other rules as well, if you wished.
I don't make up the rules - my bishop does and my license allows me to read/sing the Gospel, as does Common Worship.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
But then what you are doing is playing Common Worship for one thing and "Vatican II" for another. I think it is a much greater infringement of liturgical order and principle for a layman to read the Gospel than it is for the celebrant to kiss the Gospel.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Unless the celebrant is a bishop.
But then again, it's definitely NOT pre-Vatican II for a layman not to read the Gospel. So I guess you could make up the other rules as well, if you wished.
I don't make up the rules - my bishop does and my license allows me to read/sing the Gospel, as does Common Worship.
I guess "what is a Reader?" belongs elsewhere - and Leo might not be a Reader - but Leo's bishop is effectively ordering deacons without laying on hands, is he not? What's the difference?
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
quote:
Originally posted by Cyprian:
Am I the only one who can't get this site to do anything?
Damnit. I have the same problem.
Max.
Works for my PC in Chrome and Firefox...
Are you able to click on icons?
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Magic Wand
Shipmate
# 4227
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
The bishop does not appear wearing just a dalmatic.
Indeed. And so you will never see a bishop wearing just the dalmatic. Oh wait...
Posts: 371 | From: Princeton, NJ | Registered: Mar 2003
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Magic Wand
Shipmate
# 4227
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Posted
One very rarely sees the Cardinal Deacons wearing the chasuble, at least in my experience.
Of course one could say that the issue of the Cardinal Deacons is an exception to a more general rule, and it is. But it nicely illustrates that the theological principles that we are told undergird modern liturgical thinking are not sacrosanct, as some seem to imply.
Posts: 371 | From: Princeton, NJ | Registered: Mar 2003
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Well, this is attempting to use a particular, specific and peculiar occurrence within the papal liturgy to a general use. It doesn't work. The issue of Cardinal Deacons is a specific. It occurs nowhere else. No other bishop ever has episcopal deacons, be he Patriarch, Archbishop or Papal Legate.
As to things being sacrosanct - what could ever be said to be sacrosanct? Some used to think the maniple was sacrosanct. But as the principles develop, there should at least be an attempt to carry them through logically.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
In Eastern rites, if I am correct (and if not, please correct me), it has to be the priest who proclaims the gospel at the liturgy.
I appreciate the highly appropriate (IMHO) custom in both East and West that the gospel reading gets special hono(u)rs.
At the same time these are customs and I don't think what particular readings an ordained minister may or may not read is absolutely essential to the character of the ordained ministry, be it the diaconate or the presbyterate. So if the CoE wants to let licensed Readers read the Gospel, i don't see where that signifies a crumbling of the integrity of said ordained ministries. (Leaving aside for the moment the arguments of those who say that the CoE has no ordained ministries.)
85 posts on the topic "Who kisses the Gospel"! Only in Ecclesiantics!!
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
Posts: 3149 | From: North America | Registered: May 2006
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Patrick the less saintly
Shipmate
# 14355
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Unless the celebrant is a bishop.
But then again, it's definitely NOT pre-Vatican II for a layman not to read the Gospel. So I guess you could make up the other rules as well, if you wished.
I don't make up the rules - my bishop does and my license allows me to read/sing the Gospel, as does Common Worship.
I guess "what is a Reader?" belongs elsewhere - and Leo might not be a Reader - but Leo's bishop is effectively ordering deacons without laying on hands, is he not? What's the difference?
The Anglican Church has proper deacons, readers are not some for of quasi-deacon. If anything, they represent an attempt to revive all the minor orders into one job. As much as it astonishes me to say this, I agree with Triple Tiara. The practice of having a layperson read the gospel is very much a vain thing fondly invented. It's unheard of in the ECUSA and, I suspect, in most other provinces. It's also not something seen in those parishes of the CofE that have a reputation for doing thinks properly, at least liturgically.
The more appropriate role for a reader would be for Morning and Evening Prayer, where he or she could most certainly read any or all of the lessons, lead the prayers and also preach (I am inclined to agree with the Roman Catholic instruction that, whilst anyone may be called to preach, the homily, as part of the Mass, should be reserved for a cleric).
Posts: 1802 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2008
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vaticanchic:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Unless the celebrant is a bishop.
But then again, it's definitely NOT pre-Vatican II for a layman not to read the Gospel. So I guess you could make up the other rules as well, if you wished.
I don't make up the rules - my bishop does and my license allows me to read/sing the Gospel, as does Common Worship.
I guess "what is a Reader?" belongs elsewhere - and Leo might not be a Reader - but Leo's bishop is effectively ordering deacons without laying on hands, is he not? What's the difference?
It's got nothing to do with Leo's bishop - it's there in the Readers' licence along with all the other duties that Readers are entitled to carry out.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by malik3000:
In Eastern rites, if I am correct (and if not, please correct me), it has to be the priest who proclaims the gospel at the liturgy.
It depends.
In the Antiochene family of rites, the Liturgy of St James does stipulate that it is the priest who reads the Gospel at the Liturgy.
The Byzantine Rite is more complicated. At the Liturgy, it is the deacon who reads the Gospel; or the priest, if there is no deacon; or the bishop if he is present and so chooses, regardless of whether there is a deacon serving. At other services, it varies. Some specify the priest while others the deacon. However, the default seems to be that the deacon reads the Gospel. In the services where the priest reads the Gospel, such as at stations at outdoor processions, an examination of the rubrics usually shows that the deacon is fairly busy at this point, so it may just be a practical thing to have the priest do it.
quote:
I appreciate the highly appropriate (IMHO) custom in both East and West that the gospel reading gets special hono(u)rs.
So do I, and if anybody wnats to donate a pair of fans to my parish for the purpose, you are more than welcome to do so. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
quote:
85 posts on the topic "Who kisses the Gospel"! Only in Ecclesiantics!!
We've done ourselves proud.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Patrick the less saintly
Shipmate
# 14355
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Posted
Presumably another example of the evangelicals highjacking the CofE and attempting to pull it further from it historically Anglican identity, in this case by devaluing the threefold ministry which is at the core of Anglican ecclesiology. Why evangelical Anglicans don't leave the CofE and join with evangelical Protestants in a happy little fellowship of naff praise choruses and (under the leadership of the newly appointed Chief Executive Pastor Michael Nazir-Ali) Islamaphobia.
God, I'm in a bitter mood today.
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'[Your religion consists of] antiquarian culturally refined pseudo-Anglicanism'— Triple Tiara
Posts: 1802 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2008
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Magic Wand
Shipmate
# 4227
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
It doesn't work.
In terms of refuting the assertion that it is A VERY BAD THING for anyone who is not a deacon to wear the dalmatic as an outer vestment, I should think that it works very well indeed.
This, of course, says nothing about whether the practice is permitted in the context of the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite. I think that most rubricists would say that it isn't. My point, however, is that it's not permitted because it's not permitted, and not because it violates some important and inviolable principle of liturgical theology.
Posts: 371 | From: Princeton, NJ | Registered: Mar 2003
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
Presumably another example of the evangelicals highjacking the CofE and attempting to pull it further from it historically Anglican identity, in this case by devaluing the threefold ministry which is at the core of Anglican ecclesiology. Why evangelical Anglicans don't leave the CofE and join with evangelical Protestants in a happy little fellowship of naff praise choruses and (under the leadership of the newly appointed Chief Executive Pastor Michael Nazir-Ali) Islamaphobia.
God, I'm in a bitter mood today.
Like it or not, but Evangelical Protestants make up a very large majority of the Anglican Communion. I'm sure they would ask you why don't you just leave the CofE and join with the continuing Anglicans in a happy little fellowship of boring hymn singing, Merbecke and (under the leadership of newly appointed Sovereign Grand Inspector General and Bishop Gene Robinson) Liberalism.
God, I'm an irritable little shit today.
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
Posts: 9716 | From: North Yorkshire | Registered: May 2004
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Well, who has asserted it's a bad thing for anyone other than a deacon to wear a dalmatic? That's not the issue (tat's not the issue).
The issue is people performing roles not proper to their order. Cardinal deacons are acting as deacons of a very specific type - assistants to the pope. That's why the use of the dalmatic as symbolic vesture works. But they do not then go on to act as deacons of the liturgy - they are there purely as attendants on the Pontiff.
For a layman to dress up in a stole and dalmatic and act as a deacon is a very grievous mistake. For a priest to dress down in a dalmatic is equally wrong.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Magic Wand
Shipmate
# 4227
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Well, who has asserted it's a bad thing for anyone other than a deacon to wear a dalmatic?
For a layman to dress up in a stole and dalmatic and act as a deacon is a very grievous mistake. For a priest to dress down in a dalmatic is equally wrong.
Has the principle of non-contradiction been repealed?
Posts: 371 | From: Princeton, NJ | Registered: Mar 2003
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
You miss the point again - the dressing up or down signifies the role they are to play, and it is that role which is important. So let me just take the tat out of it, so you can see the issue clearly.
For a layman to perform the role of a deacon is a grievous mistake. For a priest to do so is equally a mistake.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
God, I'm in a bitter mood today.
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
God, I'm an irritable little shit today.
It's the weather! Who in their right mind would want to wear a dalmatic in this heat? ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
Post Vatican II - all Cardinals must be bishops. The majority are Cardinal Priests, a small number are Cardinal Deacons or Bishops, but these are honorary grades of the office, nothing more.
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
God, I'm in a bitter mood today.
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
God, I'm an irritable little shit today.
It's the weather! Who in their right mind would want to wear a dalmatic in this heat?
Or indeed clothes at all!
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
Posts: 14741 | From: Greater Manchester, UK | Registered: Mar 2004
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Vaticanchic
Shipmate
# 13869
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
[/Qb]It's got nothing to do with Leo's bishop - it's there in the Readers' licence along with all the other duties that Readers are entitled to carry out. [/QB]
Yeah, my point is the same - it's a licence to be a deacon without the laying on of hands, so what's going on with it?
[Edit: quote code]
[ 02. July 2009, 22:01: Message edited by: Hart ]
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"Sink, Burn or Take Her a Prize"
Posts: 697 | From: UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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