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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Papal Audience
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
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Originally posted by NatDogg:
Indeed! Elizabeth II cut a wonderful figure as well. Ah, those were the days. . .
Every inch a queen.
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Them's the breaks.
Never mind,most of us Romans don't either.
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Dowager Queen Fabiola of Belgium at a Papal Mass....
Is it just me, or does it seem like Her Majesty is a tad unfamiliar with her missalette?
It looks to me like she's got a bodice-ripper type book hidden in its cover. She's just too interested for it to be a missalette.
![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
Not that particular lady; she and her late husband Baudouin were THE pious royal couple. She's getting on a bit and might need to peer through the specs.
The rest of the congo don't appear to be terribly interested...
Yeah. I'll take aside the dude standing behind her in the 11:00 position and teach him how to present himself in church.
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
[ 13. July 2009, 13:32: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Irrespective of the respect with which one may view the Holy See and the Successor of Peter, the idea of court dress for zee laydeez and the pope granting "audiences" is laughably and appallingly archaic. The pope can't at once hold himself out as a head of state and as a bishop who is servant of the servants of God, and then grant "audiences" like some monarch with a court that includes Ladies appearing in fancy dress.
At the end of the day, the whole pretence is just a little, well...
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif) -making.
I don't think it's a pretence at all. It's quite legitimate. The Holy See is the inheritor of centuries of continuous history and tradition. In that respect it's less open to accusations of pretense than non-RC churches that adopt early 20th c. RC worship and practices.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
You're comparing apples to oranges, Pancho. I'm not talking about liturgical practice, but rather the pretences surrounding the monarchial aspects of the papacy and papal court. They're past their sell-by date. The pope would do well to behave as a modern head of state rather than a theocratic monarch of the type that have otherwise long since passed from the scene.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
Who says they're past their sell date? It's fine it it makes you feel uncomfortable but I don't feel uncomfortable with it nor do I sense a widespread discomfort among the hoi polloi either (writing as one of the hoi polloi ). He is a head of state. He the head of a hierarchy. He does hold a unique office. In the past 40 years none of the remaining ceremonial seems to have gotten in the way of the Pope's job as far as I can tell.
I don't think the ceremonial surrounding the Queen of England is past it's sell date either, or around the King of Spain. I doubt the ceremony and protocol arround the Dalai Lama is that "up-to-date" either.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
At St Peter' s Basilica such eminent ladies would be expected to observe the below-knee length skirt/sleeves to the elbow/head covering rule that is still enforced for any female who puts her nose around the door there, whether for mass or not.
m
How long since you've been to St. Peter's? This is the dress code I remember -- no mention of hats.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
dress code
Is it possible to get a mantilla in those colours?
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Chad:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
dress code
Is it possible to get a mantilla in those colours?
Not sure. No doubt it is possible to get a leotard in that... erm... hue... but I'm not sure I'd want to try to gain entry to the Vatican whilst wearing it (says he, fondly remembering the shenanigans that he last visit to the Holy See entailed ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) )
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
1975, Hart and another 34 years would be too soon.
You arenot wrong re hats, but a head covering does give some cachet to the would-be pious femme-unless it happens to be a hijab or a gypsy scarf-the Italians don't care for either!
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Of course, burkha & hijab would completely fit the dress code for a private audience.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
I suspect that a burkha would be considered impolite, since it is outdoor dress for pious ladies whose husbands would not be allowing them to doff it once inside.
The hijab is quite another matter as it can be combined with anything from a full overcoat to jeans and long-sleeved T shirt (One sees all manner of variations in Sinny)
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
# 2055
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
You're comparing apples to oranges, Pancho. I'm not talking about liturgical practice, but rather the pretences surrounding the monarchial aspects of the papacy and papal court. They're past their sell-by date. The pope would do well to behave as a modern head of state rather than a theocratic monarch of the type that have otherwise long since passed from the scene.
But is this simply an American and (I assume) a republican speaking? The Pope is a head of state, and the Vatican City is a monarchy, albeit an elective one, so I would expect to see some monarchical practices that visitors are expected to observe. In the same way people attending a state banquet at Buckingham Palace are expected to wear white tie, even it it's not their practice at home.
[ 14. July 2009, 16:00: Message edited by: Pre-cambrian ]
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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."
Posts: 2314 | From: Croydon | Registered: Dec 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
But is this simply an American and (I assume) a republican speaking? The Pope is a head of state, and the Vatican City is a monarchy, albeit an elective one, so I would expect to see some monarchical practices that visitors are expected to observe. In the same way people attending a state banquet at Buckingham Palace are expected to wear white tie, even it it's not their practice at home.
A pope is not going to be treated as a monarch by many republicans until he starts wearing once again the symbols of the monarchy.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Chad:
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
dress code
Is it possible to get a mantilla in those colours?
Not sure. No doubt it is possible to get a leotard in that... erm... hue... but I'm not sure I'd want to try to gain entry to the Vatican whilst wearing it (says he, fondly remembering the shenanigans that he last visit to the Holy See entailed )
I don't know, the whole thing makes me hope one day I'll be invited to a private audience with whomever is warming the Chair of St. Peter so I can wear a purple sateen pantsuit.
Notice that it's rarely the Pope getting cranky, it's usually some bureaucrat or publicity hound.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
You're comparing apples to oranges, Pancho. I'm not talking about liturgical practice, but rather the pretences surrounding the monarchial aspects of the papacy and papal court. They're past their sell-by date. The pope would do well to behave as a modern head of state rather than a theocratic monarch of the type that have otherwise long since passed from the scene.
But is this simply an American and (I assume) a republican speaking? The Pope is a head of state, and the Vatican City is a monarchy, albeit an elective one, so I would expect to see some monarchical practices that visitors are expected to observe. In the same way people attending a state banquet at Buckingham Palace are expected to wear white tie, even it it's not their practice at home.
The POTUS gives white tie dinners as well, but the laydeez don't show up as though dressed either for first communion or like Spanish widows in mourning! Really, though, I'm just being petulant. However, the female dress for these papal audiences and other gala events does impress me as just a wee bit sexist in A.D. 2009.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
You're comparing apples to oranges, Pancho. I'm not talking about liturgical practice, but rather the pretences surrounding the monarchial aspects of the papacy and papal court. They're past their sell-by date. The pope would do well to behave as a modern head of state rather than a theocratic monarch of the type that have otherwise long since passed from the scene.
But is this simply an American and (I assume) a republican speaking? The Pope is a head of state, and the Vatican City is a monarchy, albeit an elective one, so I would expect to see some monarchical practices that visitors are expected to observe. In the same way people attending a state banquet at Buckingham Palace are expected to wear white tie, even it it's not their practice at home.
But since the Pope is presented as being, not only a successor of the apostles, but as the exclusive "Vicar of Christ on earth", should perhaps he not call to mind that the one of whom he is considered to be the vicar clearly told Pilate, "My kingdom is not of this world."
Combining the ecclesial role with the earthly political role is horrible, I think, and has led to a lot of grief and manifestly un-Christian behaviour.
PS: The post isnt a reply to pre-cambrian. I just quoted it to help establish context.
[ 14. July 2009, 17:47: Message edited by: malik3000 ]
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God = love.
Otherwise, things are not just black or white.
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
The pope can't at once hold himself out as a head of state and as a bishop who is servant of the servants of God
But, like it or not, he is both of those things.
The last prince-bishop? Where have they all gone?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
The POTUS gives white tie dinners as well, but the laydeez don't show up as though dressed either for first communion or like Spanish widows in mourning!
Don't forget Mexican grandmothers. Is wearing a mantilla for the Pope all that different than dressing like an English gentleman of a certain era for the President of the United States? Maybe you're just used to white tie and not mantillas. Sort of like Americans who believe they speak English without an accent.
quote:
However, the female dress for these papal audiences and other gala events does impress me as just a wee bit sexist in A.D. 2009.
What's a wee bit sexist about a mantilla?
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
However, the female dress for these papal audiences and other gala events does impress me as just a wee bit sexist in A.D. 2009.
What's a wee bit sexist about a mantilla? [/QB]
That the President can meet the Pope bareheaded but his lady wife has to cover up her head 'cause she has girly parts.
Purple sateen pantsuit. And I'd dye my hair to match, it would cascade in lavendar curls down my back...
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
What's a wee bit sexist about a mantilla?
That the President can meet the Pope bareheaded but his lady wife has to cover up her head 'cause she has girly parts.
And the President is probably expected to wear a strip of silk around his neck that women aren't expected to wear. I'm not trying to pick a fight over this but Papal Visits are a kind of ritual act so ritual dress doesn't surprise or bother me. It seems like people are hinting that asking lady to wear the mantilla is like asking her to wear the burqa and I think that's a little extreme.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Use of the sedia is not confined to the Pope. Remeber the Hogarth Chairing the Candidate , surely very similar to chairing the newly elected Pope to the fire?
As a joke, I've just shown the photos of royal ladies en blanc to the solicitor instructing me today, as he's from one of the RC firms (and gay). He likes Fabiola and Sofia; as far as La Luxembourg is concerned, he said the photo makes her look rather dumpy and dowdy, dressed in Berlin rather than Paris or Rome. He's a very good lawyer........
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Note that even woman members of the Christian and Missionary Alliance wear the appropriate burqah. I suspect that, given Mrs Harper's ailurophilia, she and His Holiness were able to exchange cat maintenance tips.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
It's an old-fashioned social custom that women wear hats, but it's rude for a man to remain covered: men doff their hats as a sign of respect.
A mantilla is just a lacy version of a hat.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Spiff, the purple pantsuit should do fine as long as the jacket covers your butt. In fact the shalwar kameez would be prefect, since pants suits are just a bit too redolent of office attire.
Just to gild the lily, a purple fascinator would be just the trick, complete with nose veil.
However, remember that purple is not only the feminist colour but also that of penitents, so HH might get the impression that you've come to be shriven;get the laundry list ready!
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
TT: mantilla is most definitely not alacy version of a hat.
Hats can be useful : to keep one's head warm, keep off the sun, hide contraband or assist in a disguise. The mantilla does none of the above.
It was one of the happier days of my convent girl life back in 1967 when the metre-square white veils (which were sewn onto an elastic band to keep them on our heads) and which we wore on sundays and feast days to mass where finally canned. The black net triangles we wore on ordinary days and the replacement white mantillas got the chop a couple of years later-the year I finished school.
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
Whatever you say.
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
TT: mantilla is most definitely not alacy version of a hat.
Hats can be useful : to keep one's head warm, keep off the sun, hide contraband or assist in a disguise. The mantilla does none of the above.
m
But according to that definition neither is a kippah/yarmulke a hat, which seems at least counter-intuitive. Plus such a definition ignores the ceremonial function - a crown isn't really very useful for any of the thing listed above but I would argue that it is still a hat.
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
I'd argue that not only is a crown not a hat, but that even a kippah has its uses. Orthodox Jewish men often keep their crowns very closely shorn (as opposed to the luxuriant earlocks sported by the beardless boys and the beards of those old enough to grow them). A kippah would keep the crown warm in the frightful Eastern European winters. I would not mind betting that those Askenazim took the idea from the Gentile clergy of the time (not that any would admit to doing as much), who often wore such things to keep their tonsured heads warm.
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
So are the non-Catholic women dressing in that way just to demonstrate respect to their host?
I mean, the Pope knows that Camilla and the Queen et al aren't Roman Catholics so presumably he's no expectation that they dress as if they are Roman Catholic women? And therefore, isn't he a bit surprized that they appear, looking as if they are? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Wouldn't he much rather they dress as they would at a similar religious 'do' in their own Church and country? I can't imagine any sensible person espec. her maj, looking anything less than respectable in whatever she chose to wear in the company of a religious leader? So why does she need to look Roman Catholic when meeting someone who knows she's not?
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
So are the non-Catholic women dressing in that way just to demonstrate respect to their host?
I mean, the Pope knows that Camilla and the Queen et al aren't Roman Catholics so presumably he's no expectation that they dress as if they are Roman Catholic women? And therefore, isn't he a bit surprized that they appear, looking as if they are?
Wouldn't he much rather they dress as they would at a similar religious 'do' in their own Church and country? I can't imagine any sensible person espec. her maj, looking anything less than respectable in whatever she chose to wear in the company of a religious leader? So why does she need to look Roman Catholic when meeting someone who knows she's not?
It's not as if she doesn't have plenty of other hats she could wear. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
So are the non-Catholic women dressing in that way just to demonstrate respect to their host?
I mean, the Pope knows that Camilla and the Queen et al aren't Roman Catholics so presumably he's no expectation that they dress as if they are Roman Catholic women? And therefore, isn't he a bit surprized that they appear, looking as if they are?
I think it's not a 'Catholic' thing but a 'Vatican Court' thing. There's an interesting article in the Boston Globe which nevertheless doesn't quite get down to the reason for it.
However, I am inclined to agree with TT that the mantilla is just a hat, after seeing the picture of HMQ in the linked article.
ETA: don't miss the comments in the linked BG piece. A few of them are corkers.
[ 15. July 2009, 16:51: Message edited by: Hooker's Trick ]
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Triple Tiara
Ship's Papabile
# 9556
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Posted
I think you've got it in one HT. There is all variety of arcane ceremonial attached to all diplomatic and state affairs. There is as much ceremonial and rules of behaviour surrounding the Head of State as there is surrounding the papacy.
When HMQ or POTUS visit the Pope, they are not engaging in a religious act but in a diplomatic one (albeit with the head of a religious body). Court rules, not religious custom, are in play.
(I haven't read the article to which you linked, but look forward to doing so later).
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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.
Posts: 5905 | From: London, England | Registered: May 2005
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
I'm going to respectfully disagree a bit with multipara on the usefulness of the mantilla. It kept dust and smoke out of grandmother's hair as she did her housework and it does give a bit of shade when out in the sun while being lighter than the rebozo or other kinds of shawls. Folded or twisted a certain way it becomes what my mother calls a yagual which is what people in the ancestral village called a type of cushion for carrying loads on the head like baskets of laundry.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
[...] Court rules, not religious custom, are in play.
I agree with TT. From a secular perspective this is a diplomatic rather than a religious act - the Pope is, after all, a Head of State. As such, Court Rules apply, in this case, those relating to the Vatican - if this were the UK, then the conventions surrounding the Court of St. James would apply. (Diplomacy is about convention and the observation of conventions*, to the outsiders some Diplomatic conventions can seem quite obscure.)
* It may be said in flowery, but it does help prevent unintentional insult. (When von Ribbentrop was German Ambassador to the Court of St. James's, he issued an invite to a reception at the Embassy. This he did in German (rather than in French, as convention demanded). Given the insult and as convention had been broken, each mission RSVP'd in their own language.
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
Posts: 2838 | From: Gone shoreside | Registered: Dec 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
I'm going to respectfully disagree a bit with multipara on the usefulness of the mantilla. It kept dust and smoke out of grandmother's hair as she did her housework and it does give a bit of shade when out in the sun while being lighter than the rebozo or other kinds of shawls. Folded or twisted a certain way it becomes what my mother calls a yagual which is what people in the ancestral village called a type of cushion for carrying loads on the head like baskets of laundry.
The matilla, like the hijab and the kaffiah has practical use in the climate/circumstances in which it originated.
However requiring women to cover their heads, wear long sleeves, wear only black or white etc are basically the requirement to wear 'modest' dress.
Now when was the last time you heard of a man being required to dress modestly - as opposed to smartly ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
I think it's not a 'Catholic' thing but a 'Vatican Court' thing. There's an interesting article in the Boston Globe which nevertheless doesn't quite get down to the reason for it.
It's quite clear from the photos in that article who's wearing the most lace - from the Papal pecs down!
quote:
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kavimieras
The POTUS gives white tie dinners as well, but the laydeez don't show up as though dressed either for first communion or like Spanish widows in mourning!
Of course not. You can't insist on Court Dress where there is no Court, can you?
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Chad:
quote:
Posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kavimieras
The POTUS gives white tie dinners as well, but the laydeez don't show up as though dressed either for first communion or like Spanish widows in mourning!
Of course not. You can't insist on Court Dress where there is no Court, can you?
Just this type of Court.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Hooker's Trick
Admin Emeritus and Guardian of the Gin
# 89
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Now when was the last time you heard of a man being required to dress modestly - as opposed to smartly ?
St Peter's. Hart linked to it above, but the Vatican has rules for what one may wear -- no shorts or sleeveless tops for men.
Posts: 6735 | From: Gin Lane | Registered: May 2001
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
The matilla, like the hijab and the kaffiah has practical use in the climate/circumstances in which it originated.
However requiring women to cover their heads, wear long sleeves, wear only black or white etc are basically the requirement to wear 'modest' dress.
Now when was the last time you heard of a man being required to dress modestly - as opposed to smartly ?
Hooker's Trick beat me to it but the Vatican has that requirement. I've heard of other places in Italy that have similar dress codes for entering churches.There are frequent arguments on Catholic messageboards over dressing for church, much of it over modesty applying to men (tanktops, shorts, sandals, etc.). Lot's of business in California, especially near the beach, have signs that say "No Shirt, No Shoes, No Service". The "no shirt" is part pretty much aimed at men.
My parish priest will ask men to remove their hats during mass. I had a female teacher in elementary school who would not allow boys to wear hats indoors. If she saw someone wearing a basball hat in class she would walk over and remove it herself.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pancho:
I had a female teacher in elementary school who would not allow boys to wear hats indoors. If she saw someone wearing a basball hat in class she would walk over and remove it herself.
Around here, they all did that. It was quite annoying to not be able to wear my hat to my locker in the morning. Never in my 13 years of government schooling was I allowed to wear a hat in the building.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Autenrieth Road
Shipmate
# 10509
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Posted
No hint of an answer to why all black for women, yet. Surely, surely, someone somewhere has an idea?
Also, does anyone know when white tie for men changed to business suit and tie?
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Truth
Posts: 9559 | From: starlight | Registered: Oct 2005
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
I don't know why black for women but maybe for reasons similar to why men wear dark suits to important meetings, or why men's formalwear is black ( and white). Maybe dark colors imply the occasion is a serious one.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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+Chad
Staffordshire Lad
# 5645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
It would be interesting to see what ++KJSchori would wear to visit the pope.
Not body armour as I thought.
She's disguised herself as one of the Swiss Guard!
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Chad (The + is silent)
Where there is tea there is hope.
Posts: 2698 | From: The Backbone of England | Registered: Mar 2004
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Chad:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
It would be interesting to see what ++KJSchori would wear to visit the pope.
Not body armour as I thought.
She's disguised herself as one of the Swiss Guard!
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known
Shipmate
# 11399
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
quote:
Originally posted by Saint Chad:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin L:
It would be interesting to see what ++KJSchori would wear to visit the pope.
Not body armour as I thought.
She's disguised herself as one of the Swiss Guard!
LORD HGAVE MERCY!!!
Posts: 1833 | From: Manila, Philippines | Registered: May 2006
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Autenrieth Road:
No hint of an answer to why all black for women, yet. Surely, surely, someone somewhere has an idea?
Also, does anyone know when white tie for men changed to business suit and tie?
I believe that Paul VI accepted business suit for informal meetings & briefings. Under J2P2, most of the photographs I saw of him and laymen had them in suit & tie, white tie & decorations coming out only for more official events.
Diplomatic dress is much less formal these days-- most of my diplo/state ceremonial acquaintances in Ottawa do not even have white tie. The only people I have seen in Ottawa in morning dress are the GG's spouse, M. Lafond, the UK High Commissioner and the Spanish Ambassador.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
So are the non-Catholic women dressing in that way just to demonstrate respect to their host?
I mean, the Pope knows that Camilla and the Queen et al aren't Roman Catholics so presumably he's no expectation that they dress as if they are Roman Catholic women? And therefore, isn't he a bit surprized that they appear, looking as if they are?
Wouldn't he much rather they dress as they would at a similar religious 'do' in their own Church and country? I can't imagine any sensible person espec. her maj, looking anything less than respectable in whatever she chose to wear in the company of a religious leader? So why does she need to look Roman Catholic when meeting someone who knows she's not?
It's not as if she doesn't have plenty of other hats she could wear.
Well. Yes. That was partly my point. She does have plenty of hats that are perfectly respectable for visiting world and religious leaders in. So I'm not sure what the are for.
For the other repliers: I can understand the diplomatic court thing. I've no problem with the idea itself, anyway. It just seemed to me to be unnecessary to dress in that way if it was only about Catholic religious tradition - and I don't mean that derogatively. But it's clearly more than that.
So it makes sense to follow the 'rules'; you know when in Rome...!
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Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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