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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Corpus Christi
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by J Whitgift:
Fthr
Typo or new-and-inclusive-usage-to-avoid 'Mr'?
Thurible
Neither, just shorthand for 'Father' - hardly an attempt at Inclusivity. For the record I can confirm that Paul Butler, is:
a. Male, and
b. Ordained
and therefore entitled to call himself/be called Father.
(No attempt at inclusivity in any of those statements as far as I can tell, though both he and I hold an inclusive theolory.)
[ 02. June 2009, 09:07: Message edited by: J Whitgift ]
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
Posts: 2838 | From: Gone shoreside | Registered: Dec 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J Whitgift:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by J Whitgift:
Fthr
Typo or new-and-inclusive-usage-to-avoid 'Mr'?
Thurible
Neither, just shorthand for 'Father' - hardly an attempt at Inclusivity.
Fair enough. Surely 'Fr' is standard? (By 'Mr' I was highlighting the awkwardness of abbreviating 'Mother' in such a way - hence, I assume, why it's often abbreviated as Mthr.)
Thurible
[ 02. June 2009, 09:51: Message edited by: Thurible ]
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by Cyprian:
I just call it a canopy.
Don't believe you. I think you call it a habec.
That doesn't go anywhere. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
How irritating - it's Russian for canopy.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by J Whitgift:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by J Whitgift:
Fthr
Typo or new-and-inclusive-usage-to-avoid 'Mr'?
Thurible
Neither, just shorthand for 'Father' - hardly an attempt at Inclusivity.
Fair enough. Surely 'Fr' is standard? (By 'Mr' I was highlighting the awkwardness of abbreviating 'Mother' in such a way - hence, I assume, why it's often abbreviated as Mthr.)
Thurible
True enough ... my mistake, therefore, for over egging the pie with the 'TH'.
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
Posts: 2838 | From: Gone shoreside | Registered: Dec 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Next week has ended up being a bit complex thanks to the date on which Corpus Christi falls and the fact my shack is MOTR-High.
Sunday and Wednesday morning are "SOP" but then it gets a bit off.
Wednesday
9.35am MP
10.00am HC - St Margaret
7pm 1st EP for Corpus Christi and Summer School
Thursday
9.35am MP
10.00am Sung Mass
7.00pm Vestry Meeting (c***!)
Saturday
11.15am HC - St Barnabas - which I know should be Friday, but there's more chance of a congregation on a Saturday. Also the Mass is later than usual as we are having a "weed-whacker party" to tidy-up the church grounds.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Saint Hedrin the Lesser-Known
Shipmate
# 11399
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J Whitgift:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by J Whitgift:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by J Whitgift:
Fthr
Typo or new-and-inclusive-usage-to-avoid 'Mr'?
Thurible
Neither, just shorthand for 'Father' - hardly an attempt at Inclusivity.
Fair enough. Surely 'Fr' is standard? (By 'Mr' I was highlighting the awkwardness of abbreviating 'Mother' in such a way - hence, I assume, why it's often abbreviated as Mthr.)
Thurible
True enough ... my mistake, therefore, for over egging the pie with the 'TH'.
I thought "Mo." was a more common abbreviation for "Mother," as used among nuns.
[/tangent]
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
I think some places use a kind of yellow unbrella to cover the Blessed Sacrament. I'm not mening the old fashioned one with fringes, but like the yellow ones you see in use at the Vatican sometimes.
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Foaming Draught
The Low in Low Church
# 9134
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Posted
If your name was Maureen, and people called you Mo, would you be Mo Mo?
Posts: 8661 | From: Et in Australia Ego | Registered: Feb 2005
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TheMightyMartyr
Shipmate
# 11162
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by Ashworth:
If only I could find a poncey Anglo-Catholic Church that doesn't have women priests but has the sort of music that Max would choose!
I know how you feel. I've been looking all over for a parish where I can find High Mass offered by a female priest in a biretta and maniple.
Move to Vancouver and come to St James then! Mo. Jessica is often seen in her maniple, no biretta sightings yet, though hope springs eternal... and as I'm a little bit FiF, i'll trade you for St Thomas, Huron Street!
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You cannot claim to worship Jesus in the Tabernacle if you do not pity Jesus in the slum.
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
I think some places use a kind of yellow unbrella to cover the Blessed Sacrament. I'm not mening the old fashioned one with fringes, but like the yellow ones you see in use at the Vatican sometimes.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif) There wasn't a Question!
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Correct it wasnt a question. Can we move on from getting at me now? (A question, whoops).
Please - life is a bit bigger than that.
Back to topic - we've been using a simple leaflet about benediction - written by a UK Prof. called John Macquarry but now we are looking for a simple guide to give to folk to help them get into benediction and what it means. These things - guides to good A / C practice are hard to find.
Our nearby parish calls this feast 'Corpus et Sanguis Christi' and I met a guy from their who said its the proper name.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
Our nearby parish calls this feast 'Corpus et Sanguis Christi' and I met a guy from their who said its the proper name.
It is, but he needs to clean up his Latin a bit.
quote:
Canon Law saith:
Ubi de iudicio Episcopi dioecesani fieri potest, in publicum erga sanctissimam Eucharistiam venerationis testimonium, habeatur, praesertim in sollemnitate Corporis et Sanguinis Christi, processio per vias publicas ducta.
or, in English:
quote:
When it can be done in the judgment of the diocesan bishop, a procession through the public streets is to be held as a public witness of veneration toward the Most Holy Eucharist, especially on the solemnity of the Body and Blood of Christ.
[ 05. June 2009, 21:27: Message edited by: Martin L ]
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
The name of the festival was indeed changed to indicate the Solemnity of the Body and Blood of Christ,uniting thse two elements which appear also in the Bread and Wine of the Eucharist.
Corpus et Sanguis Christi - would that not be the name of the festival in the nominative case ?
Solemnitas corporis et sanguinis Christi being the same in the genitive case ?
or even In solemnitate Corporis et Sanguinis Christi.
In German the feast has the haunting title 'Fronleichnam 'which is actually' des Herrn Leichnam' or 'the Lord's body'.
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
... we've been using a simple leaflet about benediction - written by a UK Prof. called John Macquarry but now we are looking for a simple guide to give to folk to help them get into benediction and what it means.
What is it about the 'simple leaflet' that you want improved? Doesn't it tell about Benediction and what it means? If you invite a person to come to see Benediction and be part of it, with others, they will then know what it means.
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
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Leetle Masha
Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209
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Posted
That would be John Macquarrie, I think, Pearls.
New York Times Obituary
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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
That is a good point Pearlb4. Thank you for making it. I've given it some thought and would like to share some thoughts on what you say.
Firstly, the leaflet I mentioned that is used in our parish has been felt by our Church Council to be a bit complicated and heavy for the average reader, many of them don't read much you see.
Secondly, the leaflet doesn't explain or guide as to how to get the most from Benediction in a devoitional way. Like what is happening and how to enter into it.
Thirdly, our copies have been around a bit and are getting a bit faded and so we thought a new one in a fresh style would be good.
Yes, we know its best to come and experience. But actually people don't. Some want to knowe more what its about and what to do when they come. Others when theyve been want to now what it wass about.
We see no prob in a new laeflet.
Sorry - aware this a a tangent so back to topic:
Here is a photo of a five* CC procession ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Go have a look!
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
That is a good point Pearlb4. Thank you for making it. I've given it some thought and would like to share some thoughts on what you say.
Firstly, the leaflet I mentioned that is used in our parish has been felt by our Church Council to be a bit complicated and heavy for the average reader, many of them don't read much you see.
Secondly, the leaflet doesn't explain or guide as to how to get the most from Benediction in a devoitional way. Like what is happening and how to enter into it.
Thirdly, our copies have been around a bit and are getting a bit faded and so we thought a new one in a fresh style would be good.
Yes, we know its best to come and experience. But actually people don't. Some want to knowe more what its about and what to do when they come. Others when theyve been want to now what it wass about.
We see no prob in a new laeflet.
Sorry - aware this a a tangent so back to topic:
Here is a photo of a five* CC procession
Go have a look!
I can't pick out five* anythings in particular; what do you mean?
Make up a little folder yourself, on your computer; it's easy enough to do. Only, use small words, spelled correctly, for your poor readers, or they will be hopelessly confused. I'm curious- has your priest put you in charge of things like this, or are you an enthusiastic volunteer who just helps a lot?
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Thanks for help and interest on this Pearl B4.
Maybe that link doesnt work for you. It is a pic of Corpus Christi Procession which I think is fab - five star, five*.
Everyone is welcome to give ideas at our church about things like Mass books etc. if they are being altered and Father has asked on the notice sheet for ideas and comments on our Benediction book - but, hey, this is really meant for the Benediction thred so I put something on that.
Again thanks for your interest and look forward to your help on it.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Corpus et Sanguis Christi - would that not be the name of the festival in the nominative case ?
Yes, but if one is going to be so fancy that one uses the Latin title, one must [in Martin's not-so-humble opinion] use the full title in all of its Latin splendor. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
I wonder why the Latin name Corpus Christi is still used, maybe because its so old.
But we dont now use latin names for the other feasts like Easter or Assumption and they are old. I'd not know what the latin name for Sacred Heart is.
[ 06. June 2009, 15:18: Message edited by: Laetare ]
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Names like Ascension and Assumption are even older and have been given a Latinized name in English.
Corpus Christi appears in Latin in a number of European languages i.e. Corpus Domini in both Italian and Spanish. French ,however, prefers la Fete-Dieu,(God's festival might be a rough and ready translation.) I have mentioned the German name and its origins before,but in Dutch and Flemish it is simply called 'heilige Sacramentsdag'(Holy sacrament Day).
I don't know why a Latin name is still used,although in the rc church it is now called -in the english speaking world 'The solemnity of the Body and Blood of Christ'.
What you are looking for as regards the Sacred Heart is :
Feria Sexta post Octavam sanctissimi corporis Christi - in festo sacratissimi cordis Jesu.
That's a bit of a mouthful !!
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Thanks again Forthview for expalnations on that. The Sacred Heart in Latin is a big mouthful so maybe we should keep to english.
This Church of England church has three masses on Corpus Christi, including two evening masses followed by processions. Wow!
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
I would be remiss not to link to this. (English Missal alert!)
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
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Max.
Shipmate
# 5846
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
Thanks again Forthview for expalnations on that. The Sacred Heart in Latin is a big mouthful so maybe we should keep to english.
This Church of England church has three masses on Corpus Christi, including two evening masses followed by processions. Wow!
What's Chorpus Christi?
Max.
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For the sake of His sorrowful Passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:
Corpus Christi appears in Latin in a number of European languages i.e. Corpus Domini in both Italian and Spanish....
Forthview, could this be a Hispanic pond-difference? I'm use to calling it Corpus Christi in Spanish and there's a city in Texas with that name. Maybe it's different in Spain. It's also not unusual (at least in Mexico) to hear people refer to 'el jueves de Corpus' or 'Corpus Thursday'.
The Latin name Corpus Christi is still used because, well, we're Latin Catholics!
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
The article on the Spanish-language Wikipedia is located at "Corpus Christi" but gives "Corpus Domini" as an alternative. (The Italian Wikipedia uses "Corpus Domini").
Thank you for reminding us that pond differences exist in other languages. Since I started attending a bilingual college with actual French Canadian students, I've learned to discard a great deal of the public school French I was brought up with as European and irrelevant.
My best friend is quite enamoured of Latin America (even going so far as to get an outline thereof tattooed on his back) and likes to make fun of the "Castilian lisp."
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
My best friend is quite enamoured of Latin America (even going so far as to get an outline thereof tattooed on his back) and likes to make fun of the "Castilian lisp."
I once heard comedian Paul Rodriguez say that they lisp becuase they don't eat enough chile .
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
Of course it is not surprising that there are 'pond differences' in other languages as well as English.
Pronunciation,as well as vocabulary ,can be radically different between the European and American versions of both French and Spanish.
Another big 'pond difference' in English between English english and North american English is the use of the word 'public' school. Correct me if I am wrong,but I understand that in North America,as indeed in Scotland,the term 'public' school refers to schools maintained by the state.
In England the term has come to mean a 'private' school.Earlier educational establishments were generally for clerics and the schools which were created to serve members of the public,not wishing to enter the clerical state ,were called 'public' schools.
In the discussion about Corpus Christi, it should be remembered that Corpus Domini was removed from the list of public holidays in both Italy and Spain about 30 years ago and transferred to the following Sunday. (In France it was removed from list of obligatory feasts as early as 1802 with its Solemnity moved to the following Sunday).It remains a public holiday in Austria,some parts of Germany and ....Poland.
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
I was chatting today about the order of the procession for Corpus Christi and wasn't quite sure of it. One view was that clergy walk in front of the Blessed Sacrament another that they must walk behind. One view was two thuribles should be used another that only one is needed and more is showy.
To be honest I can't remember the procession order but I have certainly seen two thuribles in use in the procession.
[ 07. June 2009, 19:02: Message edited by: Laetare ]
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max.:
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
Thanks again Forthview for expalnations on that. The Sacred Heart in Latin is a big mouthful so maybe we should keep to english.
This Church of England church has three masses on Corpus Christi, including two evening masses followed by processions. Wow!
What's Chorpus Christi?
Max.
Don't you think "the Feast of the Body and Blood of Christ" is a little ponderous for common usage? There are any number of feasts and solemnities that have shortened titles in popular use.
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I think Max's point is about the spelling rather than the abbreviation.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Oh I've just connected on Max.'s comment. I thought someone was slagging me off yet again for making a spelling mistake. Now I see that the place I linked to made that spelling mistake. (So apology to Max. too)
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
This Church of England church
<tangent>
I very much like their Philosophy page, although I might choose a different title.
</tangent>
[ 07. June 2009, 19:49: Message edited by: Qoheleth. ]
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The Benedictine Community at Alton Abbey offers a friendly, personal service for the exclusive supply of Rosa Mystica incense.
Posts: 2532 | From: the radiator of life | Registered: Apr 2005
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
On this tangent as well - yea I liked that too, but I agree Philosophy Page is a bit strange, mind you I couldnt think of a word - its like our position.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
On this tangent as well - yea I liked that too, but I agree Philosophy Page is a bit strange, mind you I couldnt think of a word - its like our position.
How disappointing. I thought we'd met Father.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
I am sure I disappoint you in many ways, Thurible, but I am pleased you regularly follow and comment on my postings.
Leaving the tangent and returning to the Corpus Christi procession. I heard that only certain types of banner were suggested in the procession, but I can't find the suggestions on this.
In this photo the Holy Father seems to be on a vehicle in the Corpus Christi procession.
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
Where does one purchase the canopy that is used in the procession? My parish does not have one. I suspect that they are too expensive for me to purchase one alone, but it never hurts to ask.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
This would look lovely.
Scroll down to 'Canopy Beds'.
Or, go to Home Depot and get 4 wooden dowels, and a likely curtain panel from The Dollar Store. Assemble.
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
Posts: 3622 | From: The Keystone State | Registered: May 2006
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lily pad
Shipmate
# 11456
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Posted
Or, over to the Canadian Tire store here. A green one would do for almost all of the year. Very practical.
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Sloppiness is not caring. Fussiness is caring about the wrong things. With thanks to Adeodatus!
Posts: 2468 | From: Truly Canadian | Registered: May 2006
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
I bet those canopies are dead expensive from church shops and could be made local. (Maybe though a bit difficult to make the Holy Father's style like in that photo!).
I don't think they change colour, lily pad, I think they are always gold or white, but I may be wrong.
What I dont understand is those processions that use them but dont go outside, after all they seem to be an outdoor thing to protect, like big umbrella. The sacrament isnt normally carried under canopies or umbrellas inside from what I've seen.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
The use of the canopy was ,of course,originally to protect the VIP from the sunshine.Nevertheless it became a sign of honour over the centuries. English monarchs when they processed were often covered by a canopy and the canopy is still used at the coronation of the English monarch during the anointing.
Jewish couples are married under a canopy and in the Catholic liturgy the Blessed Sacrament was carried in solemn processions under a canopy.AFAIK the canopy is no longer obligatory.In most Catholic churches it is no longer seen,at least up here in Scotland, at the solemn procession of the Host on Holy thursday,going by the 'rule' that if anything is not obligatory it will simply be discarded.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
Thanks again Forthview for expalnations on that. The Sacred Heart in Latin is a big mouthful so maybe we should keep to english.
This Church of England church has three masses on Corpus Christi, including two evening masses followed by processions. Wow!
Yes - it is a mile up the road from where I live. And it's an LGBT inclusive pace yet also full of families. It takes five communion hymns to communicate everybody. Their vicar was my incumbent some years ago.I went to a very moving Quiet Evening and Benediction there last Wednesday - an Affirming Cathlicm event.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
Looks very good: cross now that I didn't realise it existed when I lived in that part of the world!
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
It wasn't always like that. It is one of the first Oxford Movement churches in Bristol and was solidly 'sensible' catholic. There is a Forward in Faith parish to the north of it (St. Gregory's Horfield) and a very extreme (St. Edmund's) to the East that closed many years back and Trinity absorbed what was left of their congregation.
Soon after Fr. John Hadley arrived, he appointed a woman curate (an ordinand my parish had produced) and the old-stagers left. It was become more progressive since, now that their aren't old souls continually stamping their feet and threatening to leave.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Patrick the less saintly
Shipmate
# 14355
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Posted
Their website has a section on 9 Lessons and Carols which is quite dispiriting. They bill it as a 'traditional' service with the strong implication that their other services are more contemporary, yet even for this their 'traditional' service, they admit to fiddling around with the language to leave out 'most of the less comprehensible facets of 17th century English'. By 'less comprehensible facets of 17th century English' they apparently mean every aspect of 17th century English that deviates from 21st century English, including every single second person singular pronoun. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Unfortunately, as long as places like this continue their misguided embrace of modern aesthetics, they will find that a substantial portion of even liberal Anglo-Catholics will be put off and find that the lack of women priests at places like ASMS or St Mary the Less, Cambridge is less offensive than the continual assault on their eyes and, particularly, ears at trendy parishes.
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'[Your religion consists of] antiquarian culturally refined pseudo-Anglicanism'— Triple Tiara
Posts: 1802 | From: London | Registered: Dec 2008
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Angloid
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# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patrick the less saintly:
Unfortunately, as long as places like this continue their misguided embrace of modern aesthetics, they will find that a substantial portion of even liberal Anglo-Catholics will be put off and find that the lack of women priests at places like ASMS or St Mary the Less, Cambridge is less offensive than the continual assault on their eyes and, particularly, ears at trendy parishes.
![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
That works both ways - there are many AffCathers who are put of by gender exclusive language.
It's not all 'trendy.' The last time I was at a Sunday mass there was Mothering Sunday (I'd gone to hear the chaplain of Helen House - another one of our former ordinands - preach). The giving of posies to mothers was NON politically correct.
The ceremonial is also rather old-fashioned, certainly when it comes to the way they do incense.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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highchurc
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# 11491
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The ceremonial is also rather old-fashioned, certainly when it comes to the way they do incense.
This is problematic because....?
Posts: 234 | From: USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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