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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
If we're going to talk about how many liberal catholic bishops there are, can we please for once remember that "liberal catholic" is not the same as "dresses up and talks crap"?
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Could someone tell the Crown Nominations Commission that please?
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
then, as an outsider, that a lot of this stuff about conservative evangelicals taking over the Church of England bears as much resemblance to reality as Patricia Hewitt's understanding of the NHS.
Your reading of this thread seems to be even more disconnected since if you had been reading this carefully you would have noticed we were talking about conservatives trying to take over a theological college called Wycliffe and that is slightly different from the Church of England. I guess, though as an outsider, such nuances are hard to pick up.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
A somewhat over the top article in the Guardian which seems to be as confused a Leprechaun between one college and the entire Church of England. Yet sadly one college in Oxford with leadship from the lunatic fringe of the church of England is not going to be good.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
So good, you posted it twice.
You seem to have missed the hysteria about "the rise of conservative evangelicalism, both on this thread and in the "Thinking Anglicans" community generally.
Never mind.
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
Ah, I see you are confused between this thread and another forum which I don't read.
[ 29. May 2007, 09:19: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
A somewhat over the top article in the Guardian which seems to be as confused a Leprechaun between one college and the entire Church of England. Yet sadly one college in Oxford with leadship from the lunatic fringe of the church of England is not going to be good.
Both he and you seem confused about the nature of evangelicalism in the Church of England. It's hardly a lunatic fringe...
Richard Turnbull's PhD was on the evangelical social reformers (IIRC). It is quite probable that he knows significantly more about the history of evangelicalism in the C of E than anyone posting on this thread, or than Giles Fraser.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Tyler Durden
Shipmate
# 2996
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
At Wycliffe, with Richard Turnbull as principal, I have been taught in small group situations by a Jesuit, an Orthodox monk, and a pro-women bishops Anglo-Catholic. I'm happy to recognise all of them as fellow Christians and college is happy for them to teach me as part of my theological education. I'd be fine with being in the same church as any of them.
Well, that's good to hear and I hope that situation continues. As I said, what you are saying here is entirely consistent with the most recent Wycliffe ordinands I have met. So perhaps the situation is being exaggerated? I do still feel uncomfortable with that video and its tone though...
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Have you ever noticed that anyone driving slower than you is a moron, while anyone driving faster is a maniac? Jerry Seinfeld
Posts: 509 | From: Kent | Registered: Jul 2002
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
I hope Giles Fraser doesn't teach ethics in the Oxford Philosophy department; his article seemed both dishonest and malicious to me.
Although I'd call myself evangelical, up to now I would have said I'd attend a liberal catholic church ahead of a Reform one if I had to pick between the two. But Giles Fraser's church has just gone straight in at the bottom of my list; if he represents liberal catholicism I've misunderstood the meaning of those words completely.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tyler Durden:
what you are saying here is entirely consistent with the most recent Wycliffe ordinands I have met. So perhaps the situation is being exaggerated?
In the headlines today:
Newspapers always exaggerate stories.
Pope a Catholic.
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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The Weeder
Shipmate
# 11321
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I hope Giles Fraser doesn't teach ethics in the Oxford Philosophy department; his article seemed both dishonest and malicious to me.
I did not read it in that way. I thought it was an interesting further comment on the situation.
G
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Still missing the gator
Posts: 2542 | From: LaLa Land | Registered: Apr 2006
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Burbling Psalmist
Shipmate
# 9514
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Posted
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Adeodatus:
If we're going to talk about how many liberal catholic bishops there are, can we please for once remember that "liberal catholic" is not the same as "dresses up and talks crap"?
Alleluia! Amen.
And how liberal is liberal? Which Bishop is pushing for marriage of same sex couples using the Common Worship marriage rite, for instance. Now that would be liberal, properly so called. And welcome. But that's a Dead Horse...
BP
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"And the greatness of the great Christian saints lies in their readiness to be questioned, judged, stripped naked and left speechless by what lies at the centre of their faith" - Rowan Williams
Posts: 183 | From: Cambridge | Registered: May 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Ken instead of using rhetoric why don't you deal with the actual statement.
I was dealing with it,. You or Oscar were using partisan rhetoric and it seems to me misreading what was said on the video.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I hope Giles Fraser doesn't teach ethics in the Oxford Philosophy department; his article seemed both dishonest and malicious to me.
If he really did write that he's just gone way down my list. Much more of a smoking gun than what Richard Turnbull said in that video. I think I used to rather like his opinions on most things, but this seems over the top.
Of course, I don't know what's really going on at Wycliffe apart from what's on this thread and the stuff linked to from it. Maybe it really has suffered from a misogynist putsch. Maybe Fraser is right. But so far there is no evidence for it and what he wrote there is more than an over-reaction to what has been said in public. It looks like an attempt at the ecclesiological cleansing, sweeping away the nasty evangelicals (and he actually calls us "nasty").
Put it this way - if what Giles Fraser wrote in that piece really is the view of a significant part of the CofE establishment then what Richard Turnbull said about the Liberals trying to capture the colleges is true. They really are. Or at any rate Giles Fraser is - and he wants Oxford University to help him do it.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Tyler Durden
Shipmate
# 2996
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Newspapers always exaggerate stories.
Pope a Catholic.
But AIUI, in this situation, it's not just newspapers, is it? Aren't people who are sort of involved talking about it on their blogs? If so (and I might have got that wrong) isn't that different to a commercial newspaper looking for a scandal? Is it not a fact that a lot of staff have left?
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Have you ever noticed that anyone driving slower than you is a moron, while anyone driving faster is a maniac? Jerry Seinfeld
Posts: 509 | From: Kent | Registered: Jul 2002
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tyler Durden:
But AIUI, in this situation, it's not just newspapers, is it? Aren't people who are sort of involved talking about it on their blogs? If so (and I might have got that wrong) isn't that different to a commercial newspaper looking for a scandal? Is it not a fact that a lot of staff have left?
Blogs: I'm one of the blogging students at Wycliffe. I've just checked through half a dozen other blogs of students here, and can't find a single mention of it. If you find anything, I'd be interested. And no, we haven't been told to refrain from blogging on it.
A lot of staff left? Yes, the turnover this year is slightly higher than average (but this is Richard's second year here and it's only 3 of 10 full-time members of staff). And yes, one factor among many in them leaving might well be the shifts of emphasis in college. It certainly isn't the main factor in all three cases.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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The Weeder
Shipmate
# 11321
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
quote:
Originally posted by Tyler Durden:
But AIUI, in this situation, it's not just newspapers, is it? Aren't people who are sort of involved talking about it on their blogs? If so (and I might have got that wrong) isn't that different to a commercial newspaper looking for a scandal? Is it not a fact that a lot of staff have left?
Blogs: I'm one of the blogging students at Wycliffe. I've just checked through half a dozen other blogs of students here, and can't find a single mention of it. If you find anything, I'd be interested. And no, we haven't been told to refrain from blogging on it.
Why are Wycliffe students not blogging, Custard? That seems odd to me. If my place of work, or my Church or place of study when I begin Reader Training in September, was attracting so much attention, in the national press as well as on line, I would be blogging like mad.
G
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Still missing the gator
Posts: 2542 | From: LaLa Land | Registered: Apr 2006
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tumphouse:
Why are Wycliffe students not blogging, Custard? That seems odd to me. If my place of work, or my Church or place of study when I begin Reader Training in September, was attracting so much attention, in the national press as well as on line, I would be blogging like mad.
G
I'm discussing it on here rather than on my blog. Quite a few of the bloggers are sporadic and some haven't posted anything since this blew up.
But otherwise I really don't know. Hmmm - I might do a blog post...
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
On the Fulcrum forum, (hardly anti-evo!) this question was asked:
"Is it true that WH does not send its students (or is it just the ordinands?) to any of the theological faculty's lectures on biblical studies, but keeps them at home with their own (conservative) reading lists?"
Custard (or anyone else who may know the answer to this question) - can you comment on whether this is true or incorrect?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
Isn't Fulcrum the 'open evangelical' grouping who are hardly going to support Fr Turnbull and his kind?
I understand that the Wycliffe ordinands who were at St Stephen's House last week had a lovely time. The woman ordinand to whom I chatted most had nothing but good things to say about her principal.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
Fulcrum are an open evo grouping, who have been described by a friend as, "Fulcrum, who believe that it's important to be nasty to anyone involved with Reform, whatever they do", which seems like a fair assessment to me.
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
But that doesn't answer the question. Is the "allegation" correct or not?
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
I can't answer about the ordinands but the students certainly go to faculty lectures - well, the only one I know does.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
On the Fulcrum forum, (hardly anti-evo!) this question was asked:
"Is it true that WH does not send its students (or is it just the ordinands?) to any of the theological faculty's lectures on biblical studies, but keeps them at home with their own (conservative) reading lists?"
Custard (or anyone else who may know the answer to this question) - can you comment on whether this is true or incorrect?
It's complete tosh.
Wycliffe has quite a few courses leading to ordination (10 or so, depending on previous experience, age, etc). Some of them are taught centrally by the university, some aren't.
I'm on one of the ones that's taught centrally, though with tutors provided by Wycliffe (as is normal in the Oxford tutorial system). In some cases, those tutors were from inside Wycliffe, when they always told us to go to lectures by more liberal folk too. In some cases, the tutors were from outside Wycliffe (hence the Jesuit, the orthodox monk, etc).
What the person on the forum was probably referring to was the courses which the university doesn't provide central lectures for, such as the BTh, ODM, etc. On those courses, Wycliffe tends to provide the lectures and seminars. Sometimes they are sent to university lectures on topics where there's a big overlap (e.g. science and religion, doctrine). Sometimes the Wycliffe BTh lectures, where there is overlap and it isn't covered in depth by the university (e.g. a series on Romans) are advertised to the university and there are often a good number of non-Wycliffe people at them.
University courses do the same exams at the same times as normal university students. Some courses (e.g. the BTh) are examined jointly by the Oxford theological colleges (Anglican and non-Anglican). Some courses (e.g. the ODM) aren't assessed by examination at all.
As regards reading lists on courses that are taught internally, friends I've spoken to certainly seem to have to be aware of liberal scholarship and to discuss the opinions and arguments involved.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
Also, just to add that the Fulcrum forum is, itself, quite open and there are a variety of positions and views (not just 'Open evangelical') - so it helps to know who is what (just as on the Ship, really).
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
Posts: 1469 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
On the Fulcrum forum, (hardly anti-evo!) this question was asked:
"Is it true that WH does not send its students (or is it just the ordinands?) to any of the theological faculty's lectures on biblical studies, but keeps them at home with their own (conservative) reading lists?"
Custard (or anyone else who may know the answer to this question) - can you comment on whether this is true or incorrect?
It's complete tosh.
Thank you. I had hoped that it was but I felt it needed clarification. It is all too easy for an unsubstantiated claim to be made which then magically becomes "Complete Fact".
I should know - I deliberately did something similar recently (but not on the Ship, I hasten to add.) My football team was without a manager and (for a giggle) I created a totally fictitious (and to me, clearly preposterous) rumour about who the new manager would be on the club's unofficial messageboard. Even though it should have been clear to a 3 year old that it was a joke posting (not least because I claimed to be an eye witness to something when I was over 250 miles away), I was astonished at the way that some people took it very seriously and even started quoting it as "Fact" - even after I had pointed out that it was 100% utter tosh. It certainly taught me a lesson.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
It is all too easy for an unsubstantiated claim
It wasn't a claim or allegation it was question on a forum based on Giles Fraser's dubious article.
[ 30. May 2007, 21:29: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Audrey Ely
Shipmate
# 12665
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Posted
I have to say I rather enjoyed reading Giles Fraser's recent article about Wycliffe Hall in the Guardian newspaper. It raises important questions about the relationship of the University of Oxford to rather strict Christian colleges.
Posts: 1432 | From: Cambridgeshire, England | Registered: May 2007
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
That article was hilarious, in a kind of sad way.
I particularly liked the bit where, after claiming that Wycliffe was trading off Oxford's good name, he claimed to be a lecturer at Oxford. AFAIK, he was a college chaplain some time ago, but left and doesn't have anything to do with the university.
Needless to say, we're not anti-intellectual. Maybe there are a few people here who are. Personally, I'm trying to do the proper Oxford theology degree in two years, so don't have time to notice them if they do exist.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
According to his church website Giles Fraser lectures in philosophy at Wadham College.
Although he is involved with something called Inclusive Church, his article is very exclusive, and Custard comes across as the inclusive one of the two. I am having to rethink my preconceptions.
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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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Emma Louise
Storm in a teapot
# 3571
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Posted
I was under the impression Giles Fraser was part of the philosophy department at Oxford and a reasonably well respected scholar.When I was in Oxford he was involved in a church there and was very well respected by fellow students.
I usually quite like his articles in the church times, and was quite surprised at his Wycliffe one. It did seem rather unsubstantiated. Perhaps he hit a blind spot or a sore point for him somewhere and lost his usualy journalistic competency.
Posts: 12719 | From: Enid Blyton territory. | Registered: Nov 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Letter in the Guardian this week which I can't quote, both because of copyright and because I can't find it, but said something like, the difference between Wycliffe and Giles Fraser is that the former is obsessed by the wages of Sodom, while Fraser was taught by the sages of Wadham. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Richard Turnbull is said to be writing a reply to Mr Fraser to be published in the Guardian.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Giles Fraser's name does not appear on the current list of staff at Wadham College (where I understand he used to be the chaplain). It's quite possible that he may give the occasional invited lecture, but that's not at all the same thing - on that basis I could describe myself as a lecturer at several UK universities, and the Uni. of Brno in the Czech Republic.
To be honest I like some of his stuff - the problem arises when he opines on culture-wars type subjects. Then it tends to become a one-sided rant. Any sense of objectivity, limitations, applicability etc. etc. flies out of the window.
I only mention that because I would level the same accusation at Stephen Bates. Its not that when he does that he is wrong - on the contrary he may well be right. But in being so uncompromisingly one-sided, it has me starting to sympathise for the other side who must surely have something to say for themselves.
Oh well. He's hardly the only one I would level that accusation at, and he does come across as almost a different person when he speaks on the BBC. Does he get heavily subedited? Does he write his newspaper pieces that way because he thinks that will play to the specific prejudices of Grauniad readers?
Ian
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I suspect my views on a lot of things are rather closer to those of Fr. Fraser than Fr. Turnbull (surely not! I hear you cry), but I do think that an Anglican priest calling for the plug to be pulled on an Anglican theological college by the University of Oxford is really a bit much.
My impression is that Fraser lectures once a week at Wadham, (or at least he did until a few years ago when my spies were active). I've no idea whether this 'counts' or not.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
According to his church website Giles Fraser lectures in philosophy at Wadham College.
That is intriguing. I didn't think normal Oxford colleges had lecturers in subjects - lectureships are part of the university system rather than the college one if I understand it.
Searches of the Wadham college website turn up no mentions for him, nor is he on the philosophy faculty list though searches of the university website show him as an occasional preacher at various chapels, listed as vicar of Putney and former chaplain at Wadham.
I suppose it's possible that he does a few tutorials for them, but it's odd that he isn't listed as such.
Anyway, that hardly matters. I know he's wrong on this one, whether or not he teaches philosophy at Wadham.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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badman
Shipmate
# 9634
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
According to his church website Giles Fraser lectures in philosophy at Wadham College.
That is intriguing. I didn't think normal Oxford colleges had lecturers in subjects - lectureships are part of the university system rather than the college one if I understand it.
Searches of the Wadham college website turn up no mentions for him, nor is he on the philosophy faculty list though searches of the university website show him as an occasional preacher at various chapels, listed as vicar of Putney and former chaplain at Wadham.
I suppose it's possible that he does a few tutorials for them, but it's odd that he isn't listed as such.
Anyway, that hardly matters.
Since you are effectively accusing him of lying, I would have thought it did matter.
For what it's worth, in my Oxford college we did indeed have regular lectures within the college, especially on philosophy, from people who were not on the full-time staff, and so I am inclined to believe that what Fraser says is true unless the contrary is demonstrated. The absence of his name from the college website, or a practice differing from the one you are familiar with at a Permanent Private Hall, doesn't seem to me to decide the question, if there is a question.
Posts: 429 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Jun 2005
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Cadfael
Shipmate
# 11066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Giles Fraser's name does not appear on the current list of staff at Wadham College (where I understand he used to be the chaplain). It's quite possible that he may give the occasional invited lecture, but that's not at all the same thing - on that basis I could describe myself as a lecturer at several UK universities, and the Uni. of Brno in the Czech Republic.
[snip]
..good point - he does appear in course listings from a few years back though, so perhaps it should say 'former lecturer...'
I do like the idea of the very loose application of academic associations though... that way I could claim to have completed my PhD at Oxford (...well, I did finish typing it whilst staying, on a tourist basis, in a room at Merton!)
Hermeneut, Alumnus of the University of NotVeryGrand...
Posts: 576 | From: North by North West | Registered: Feb 2006
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Burbling Psalmist
Shipmate
# 9514
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Posted
Part of the confusion may stem from the fact that,in Oxford, lectureship is used in two different senses.
The first is what are often formally called "CUF lecturers". Thus, If I were appointed Fellow and Tutor in Theology at an Oxford College, that would usually be tenable with an accompanying CUF (i.e. University) lectureship, in which role I would give lectures in the Faculty of which I would be a member.
The second sense is "College lecturers". Here, different colleges do slightly different things. Most commonly, the title "College Lecturer",often abbreviated to "Lecturer" is given to academics who give tutorials and classes in a given subject at a given college.
These people are junior-rank academic staff of the college, i.e. they are not fellows (or in Christ Church, which uses confusing terminology "Students") of the College.
Ironically, college lecturers rarely lecture. They tend to spend their teaching time giving tutorials and small classes.
Very often they are part time.
I suspect that Fr. Fraser's post is a college lectureship at Wadham, and that in practice it means that he gives some tutorials to the undergraduates there reading for particular philosophy papers in which he has the requisite expertise.
BP
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"And the greatness of the great Christian saints lies in their readiness to be questioned, judged, stripped naked and left speechless by what lies at the centre of their faith" - Rowan Williams
Posts: 183 | From: Cambridge | Registered: May 2005
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
I found Giles Fraser in the Wadham Gazette for 2007 as lecturer not on foundation in Philosophy.
NL
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I particularly liked the bit where, after claiming that Wycliffe was trading off Oxford's good name, he claimed to be a lecturer at Oxford. AFAIK, he was a college chaplain some time ago, but left and doesn't have anything to do with the university.
So it appears it's Fraser 1: Custard 0 ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
I found Giles Fraser in the Wadham Gazette for 2007 as lecturer not on foundation in Philosophy.
Oh, ok, fine. I'm far more used to another collegiate system than the Oxford one, where such things didn't seem to exist. Hence the "AFAIK".
As I said, it doesn't matter - I was merely pointing out that some of us thought it ironic that he'd try doing what he accused us of.
[ 31. May 2007, 10:27: Message edited by: Custard. ]
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Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Of course, at the Other Place, such roles do exist but are called something like "external supervisor". But there, titles always reflect precisely what the job involves. "Senior Wrangler", for example.
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badman
Shipmate
# 9634
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
I found Giles Fraser in the Wadham Gazette for 2007 as lecturer not on foundation in Philosophy.
Oh, ok, fine. I'm far more used to another collegiate system than the Oxford one, where such things didn't seem to exist. Hence the "AFAIK".
As I said, it doesn't matter - I was merely pointing out that some of us thought it ironic that he'd try doing what he accused us of.
So, we'll take that as a gracious withdrawal and apology, shall we? "Oh, OK, fine." ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Posts: 429 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Jun 2005
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
I am fond of Giles Fraser's writing, but here I think he is playing to 'the crowd' in much the same way Richard was at Reform.
[ 31. May 2007, 11:13: Message edited by: Edward::Green ]
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
Edward, you're right.
Turnbull and Fraser represent two extreme ends of the spectrum with many of us filling in the space inbetween.
Custard clearly feels closer to RT's position and so would reject GF's analysis, some on the Ship would be closer to GF's position and, thus, detest RT's Reform 'spiel'.
I, like you, found GF's article somewhat 'extreme' and playing to 'party politics' (just as RT did) and, thus, reject both attempts to seize the moral highground.
I think it's the 'muddled middle' where much of the work within the CofE goes on and I'm increasingly getting fed up with all this political posturing and rhetoric. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
This seems to be a well balanced BBC Report.
I agree, mostly.
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
Giles used to be Wadham college chaplain and an NSM curate at the University church. He also was a college lecturer and I guess that's the bit he kept up since going to Putney. Here's his Crockfords entry:
quote:
FRASER, Giles Anthony. b 64. Newc Univ BA84 Ox Univ BA92 MA97 Lanc Univ PhD99. Ripon Coll Cuddesdon. d 93 p 94. C Streetly Lich 93-97; C Ox St Mary V w St Cross and St Pet 97-00; Chapl Wadh Coll Ox 97-00; V Putney St Mary S'wark 00-04; TR from 04.
Giles is always known for his sermons to be somewhat political manifestos and drafts of his columns in Grauniad and Church Times. But he always speaks with passion and conviction and you have to accept the rhetoric which goes with that. 1-to-1 you'll get more subtlety. It doesn't surprise me he's plotting his current course though. He's got himself onto General Synod too so I reckon he feels in recent times the battle lines have been drawn. Much as I worry about the likes of Turnbull too (and find myself bristlinh at what he said about open evos), I still find I bump into (surprisingly?) open-minded con evos from time to time so I haven't given up hope.
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moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
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Posted
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job
quote:
But he always speaks with passion and conviction and you have to accept the rhetoric which goes with that.
As a philosophy lecturer he ought to be able to give an honest argument at least. He asserted that Wycliffe's leadership were anti intellectual, the only evidence for which seemed to be that they disagree with him. And the subjects of disagreement that he referred to, homosexuality and ordination of women, are not ones on which either side of the debates reach their conclusions for particularly intellectual reasons.
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Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I was merely pointing out that some of us thought it ironic that he'd try doing what he accused us of.
As it turned out misplaced irony. You should do better research.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
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