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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
Barnabas62
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daisymay

I think Elaine Storkey's position is not likely to be endangered by approving comments from you and me on this thread! Elaine is great - if she really is cross about what has been happening under the new regime at Wycliffe then I'd take her seriously. She does not have a track record of either getting out of her pram or being nonconstructive in her approach to differences.

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. But I was disappointed by the Jonathan Aitken article - under the circumstances I thought it went beyond free speech and into the "low blow" territory.

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Callan
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Originally posted by Nightlamp:

quote:
Well a former student speaks out who argues that it is all about personalities. This may be a reasonable interpretation but the evidence from the reform conference and the appointment of Simon vibert would seem to contradict this.
I am left to deduce that there is a local tactical disagreement that is mostly about people but there is a strategic issue between the differing strands of the evangelical spectrum.

It's not necessarily either/ or. When I worked for HMG we had a new broom whose job was to change the way we worked for the better, but he was also keen to make us more in thinking with New Labour. The personnel and structural changes were made to make us more efficient but it wasn't accidental that the people who were appointed tended to be in sympathy with the government. You could tell the people who were going to get on because they all started talking about UK plc and the like.

So it seems to me that Aitken's account of events is not incompossible with Turnbull wanting to make Wycliffe less 'open' and more 'conservative' in its evangelicalism. A period of administrative change is an excellent opportunity for ideological change if one plays ones cards right.

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Custard
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Since this thread has been dragged back up from the depths, I might as well add some stuff to it.

Ruth Gledhill, having spoken to various people who know what is going on, shares Mr Aitken's analysis of the situation. I notice three Wycliffe students being supportive of the article in the comments, as well as some argumentation from one "Nightlamp".

Richard Turnbull has also recently (last couple of weeks) appointed another woman to the staff, who is a) ordained b) currently teaches at one of the "+4" colleges. I've not seen this announced publically, so I'm not giving names, but it's certainly been announced inside college.

What if the two situations Nightlamp alludes to (the personality clashes and Simon Vibert) are linked? What if some of the clash is actually over toleration of people who hold different views on the OoW, with Turnbull arguing for toleration of both integrities and Storkey not? (I am speculating, but that is a scenario that makes sense of the data and what I know of the personalities involved).

Did Elaine actually compare Richard to "one of the Nazi defendants at Nuremberg" in a public meeting? If she did, I wasn't there, but if she did equally it is pretty unacceptable.

I'm not going to criticise Elaine beyond this paragraph, as I don't really know her. She seems to play far less part in the life of the college than any of the other staff, and both the lectures of hers I've been to have been facile and poorly delivered.

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Mystery of Faith
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:

Ruth Gledhill, having spoken to various people who know what is going on, shares Mr Aitken's analysis of the situation.

Surely this is about as surprising as Tony Blair coming out and saying he still doesn't regret sending our troops to Iraq?

Just as Stephen Bates wears his liberal colours firmly on his sleeve in his Guardian columns, I think we know where Ruth Gledhill sits. Or at least her rather worshipful "interview" with ++Akinola from yesterday's Times seems to indicate where she sits:

For God's sake

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I_am_not_Job
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Jonathan Aitkin talks about new brooms, but his article seems designed to sweep it all under the carpet. The summary is, new, very establishment head of college comes in to shake things up about it, don't worry about that woman going slightly crazy in the corner.

I'm sure it is no where near as big as the press have made it, but his side-stepping and maligning of genuine concerns of former staff, who presumably he knew and respected when he was there, seems just a bit too easy. It's a bit like the policeman saying, move along please, nothing to look at here, when there's clearly a major kerfuffle going on.

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J Whitgift

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<Tangent to express my outrage [Mad] , ON>

quote:
Originally posted by Mystery of Faith:

Just as Stephen Bates wears his liberal colours firmly on his sleeve in his Guardian columns, I think we know where Ruth Gledhill sits. Or at least her rather worshipful "interview" with ++Akinola from yesterday's Times seems to indicate where she sits:

For God's sake

This is the biggest pile of journalistic sh*t I have ever read! (The Gledhill article, not Mystery of Faith's post!) How anyone can mention Gledhill in the same sentence as Stephen Bates, I have no idea. Two quotes to give you a sense of the article:

quote:
Archbishop Akinola of Nigeria, the world’s most powerful Anglican leader ...
I severly doubt that Akinola is 'the world’s most powerful Anglican leader'. He is an Anglican Primate, but one among many. He may well be the leader of the one the largest (numerical) Provinces of Communion, but I have doubts about the way the statistics were prepared.

quote:
I met this enigmatic Archbishop, who in his 63 years has never given an interview to a British national newspaper, in his office in the Abuja diocese. In the small room up a narrow stairway, the most ornate structure was a set of beautifully crafted wooden shelves that this former carpenter designed himself. “God has used my upbringing in carpentry to bear in my work as a bishop,” he says. He wouldn’t be the first to say so. He wore a clerical shirt with no collar, a cross around his neck. His feet were bare. The contrast between this and the Archbishop of Canterbury’s splendid palaces in Lambeth and Canterbury could not have been greater.
Again this is b*llocks. Anyone who has met (or even encountered) ++Rowan will know that the outward pomp which is used with regards to the AB of C does not mark the inner man. A black, scruffy, sweat stained clerical shirt seems to be his usual atire.

I appreciate that good, eclesiastical reporting is a, sadly dying art. Stephen Bates may be liberal in his outlook, but at least he avoids adulatory nonsense which seems to mark this article.

To repeat the oft repeated quip regarding Ruth Gledhill, by the former Archbishop of York, David Hope:

quote:
'I should have know with a girl like Ruth, than to tell the complete and utter truth!'
[Razz]

<Outraged tangent, ENDS>

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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.

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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Did Elaine actually compare Richard to "one of the Nazi defendants at Nuremberg" in a public meeting? If she did, I wasn't there, but if she did equally it is pretty unacceptable.

This is one of the reasons why I find Aitken's intervention so objectionable.

IF Elaine Storkey made this comment, then this would indeed be cause for disciplinary proceedings. But this should have been kept confidential until the matter has been resolved (and there were a lot of people allegedly present at the time, so that shouldn't take too long).

It seems to me that Aitken (having talked with Turnbull) has been used by Turnbull in a rather distasteful way to smear Elaine Storkey, knowing that she is in no position to be able to respond whilst this disciplinary matter is still in hand.

Elsewhere, I came across this:

quote:
"The version I heard is that, after having signed the Covenant for the Church of England, RT claimed he had been pressured into putting his name to the document. Storkey replied something like 'the Nuremberg trials taught us that we are responsible for what we sign'."
Now that is a very different account. But the problem is that it is the Turnbull spin that Aitken has released to the media. No matter what the truth, Elaine Storkey will now always have this hanging over her.

So I now have some more questions about this matter:

a) Who told Aitken about what Storkey allegedly said? Why were they disclosing a matter which, by any account, should have remained confidential whilst disciplinary matter are proceeding?

b) Why has the matter taken so long to be resolved? It shouldn't be hard to conclude what Storkey did or did not say, if it was in a staff meeting. If it was in a private conversation, then we come back to point a) - who told Aitken?

c) Did Turnbull know that Aitken was going to go to the media? Did he encourage him to go to the media? Did he in anyway try to prevent Aitken talking to the media about this? If not, why not?

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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Callan
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Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

quote:
It seems to me that Aitken (having talked with Turnbull) has been used by Turnbull in a rather distasteful way to smear Elaine Storkey, knowing that she is in no position to be able to respond whilst this disciplinary matter is still in hand.
I must say that getting Jonathan Aitken, of all people, to do it in the Grauniad was an elegant touch.

quote:
"The version I heard is that, after having signed the Covenant for the Church of England, RT claimed he had been pressured into putting his name to the document. Storkey replied something like 'the Nuremberg trials taught us that we are responsible for what we sign'."
I must say that sounds much more plausible than the other version which sounds as if there was a heated exchange, finishing with "you're just like a defendant in the Nuremburg trials!" which, as insults go, is a little lacking.

Interesting that the contretemps took place over the Covenant. Which is a open vs. con bone of contention, not about teaching methods or changing the focus of the coursework.

Incidentally, how on earth was Turnbull pressured. Did David Banting pop into his office and say "the eyes, the eyes, don't look around the eyes, look into the eyes. Now sign this"?

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

It seems to me that Aitken (having talked with Turnbull) has been used by Turnbull in a rather distasteful way to smear Elaine Storkey, knowing that she is in no position to be able to respond whilst this disciplinary matter is still in hand.


Exactly so. Well done, Oscar.

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Barnabas62
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Apologies for the double post. If Elaine Storkey has gained a reputation as a member of the "awkward squad", its the first I've heard of it. I really thought the reverse was true.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

It seems to me that Aitken (having talked with Turnbull) has been used by Turnbull in a rather distasteful way to smear Elaine Storkey, knowing that she is in no position to be able to respond whilst this disciplinary matter is still in hand.

This would seem to make sense to me since the other information that Aiken has access to is a quote from a 'confidential Church of England report' which could have only have come from a few people. According to Custard the Nuremberg quote did not occur at a meeting with students so we are left with Aiken getting information from one senior source in Wycliffe.
I guess the no comment from Wycliffe is now being replaced by a spun character assassination in the best New Labour tradition.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Oscar the Grouch

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Another (minor) point from the Aitken article....

To call Richard Turnbull a church historian is like calling Johnny Rotten a classical composer.

Diarmid MacCulloch is a church historian. Owen Chadwick is a church historian. What the **** has Richard Turnbull ever achieved in the way of writing or lecturing about church history?

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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I_am_not_Job
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er, Oscar, your questions in your previous post were very perceptive, but Turnbull's PhD was in church history and he's currently got a book out on evangelicalism and anglicanism, so giving him the benefit of the doubt...

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Oscar the Grouch

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That still doesn't really make him a "church historian".

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Dinghy Sailor

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quote:
Originally posted by Mystery of Faith:
Just as Stephen Bates wears his liberal colours firmly on his sleeve in his Guardian columns, I think we know where Ruth Gledhill sits.

I must admit, that article didn't incline me greatly to think of her as the liberal anglocatholic as which she self-identifies. How about you?

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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
Turnbull's PhD was in church history

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
That still doesn't really make him a "church historian".

This does not compute, Captain.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Oscar the Grouch

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To call someone a "church historian" implies that they have a certain amount of credibility and track record. In my mind, that needs more than a PhD. Having seen what Richard Turnbull has to say, I'm not sure I'd go to him for reliable information and balanced opinion about church history. But hey - that's just my opinion!

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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Nightlamp
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I would also tend to think calling him a church historian is over egging his reputation . I would say he is on his way to becoming a church historian a few years lecturing in a college plus a number of books on church history and it may well be true. His only book he has written so far (that I can find) though isn't about church history.

[ 07. July 2007, 13:15: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
To call someone a "church historian" implies that they have a certain amount of credibility and track record. In my mind, that needs more than a PhD. Having seen what Richard Turnbull has to say, I'm not sure I'd go to him for reliable information and balanced opinion about church history. But hey - that's just my opinion!

In other words you disagree with his opinions on church history. Gosh.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Yerevan
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by I_am_not_Job:
Turnbull's PhD was in church history

quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
That still doesn't really make him a "church historian".

This does not compute, Captain.

Being at the end of a history PhD myself I'm inclined to agree with Oscar (and not just because I don't warm to Turnbull's theology!). A history PhD doesn't equal a historian by any means.

[ 07. July 2007, 14:26: Message edited by: Yerevan ]

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Zwingli
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quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Being at the end of a history PhD myself I'm inclined to agree with Oscar (and not just because I don't warm to Turnbull's theology!). A history PhD doesn't equal a historian by any means.

The article said that he was a church historian. Given that he has a PhD in church history that seems to be an entirely reasonable statement of fact. Oscar may think that Turnbull's views on church history are misguided, or that his research has added nothing of consequence to our understanding of church history, or that as he has spent much of his career as a vicar rather than as an academic he isn't a full time historian by profession; those are fair enough opinions, but they don't make the reference to a fact in the article incorrect, and there was no good reason for Oscar to comment it beyond a cheap shot at Turnbull.
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Callan
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Diane Purkiss describes Mr Purkiss as a "historian who escaped into consultancy". As Diane Purkiss emphatically is a historian and is happy to use the term in the looser sense we can forgive Mr Aitken his usage.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Yerevan
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The reason I made that comment is that I've come across some piss poor PhDs and books in my own area of research (and at the rate things are going will possibly soon be adding to the number [Razz] ). I have no idea if Turnbull falls into that category. Quite possibly he doesn't. I've just learnt not to assume that book + PhD = historian with a clue.
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Nightlamp
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I would also agree that a Phd on it's own is not really a sign that someone could be classed as an historian. Indeed I am sure there are people without Phds who could be classed as historians.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Oscar the Grouch

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My gut instinct is that Aitken described Turnbull as a church historian in order to try and make him out to be more of an academic than he really is. If the general public think this is just an intra-academic spat, they won't give it much thought.

If Turnbull had spent some time lecturing on church history or even writing articles for reputable journals, he might have a better claim for the title. Since his PhD, he's shown remarkably little interest in pursuing academic work as far as I can see.

Oh - and it's not about whether I disagree with his historical analysis or not - I just genuinely can't see what he has done (other than a PhD) to deserve the title "church historian".

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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu

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Zwingli
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I can't, in all honesty, see the problem with Aitken describing him as a church historian. Aitken is not an academic, and clearly was using the term as a general description of the man, not trying to say that he he had attained a particular level of eminence in the field.

He has the right to describe Turnbull as an historian, just as much as you have the right to describe Aitken as a perjurer; both are statements of fact, and neither necessarily implies that the subject currently makes their full time living through church history or perjury, or that either was ever a very competent historian or perjurer. You might infer that describing them thus would be unfairly prejudicial, positively or negatively, but I think it is fairly mild - it is not as though you were describing someone as a member of Reform/ Tory cabinet minister.

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Nightlamp
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It seems we think that Aiken 'spun' a certain image of Richard Turnbull as he spun a certain image of Elaine Stokey. One was positive and academic and the other spiteful and mean.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Ethne Alba
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Is it too late in the day for the entire staff to be cleaned and and for Sept to start with a new bunch?
Because there's something not too right somewhere and all this digging around is doing no one any good at all.

It seems to be like evangelicals-with-interest-in-such-matters are having to declare sides.
Unless something happens and happens soon to cease the speculation this will ramble on and the sides will be entrenched for ever and ever Amen.

Those of us who are older and ready to use saga insurance remember what happens when this sort of nonsense rolls out of control.
Strands and schism, in crowd and out crowd, meetings one can't attend if such and such is speaking, or on the board, or had lunch with the speaker last week.

Is this really how the evangelical wing wants to project itself?

Good God above ( and yes I do actually mean this and it's not a blasphemy)....must be thrilled do we think?

And no, this isn't a trite post.
It's a serious question.
Because it's a very serious state this wing of Christendom has found itself in in the UK.

I am acutely ashamed.

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daronmedway
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Turnbull: Male Conservative Evangelical and therefore not very intelligent or academically gifted.

Storkey: Female Liberal (i.e. Open) Evangelical and therefore highly intelligent and academically gifted.

Hurrah for a priori affiliations! [Disappointed]

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:

Storkey: Female Liberal (i.e. Open) Evangelical and therefore highly intelligent and academically gifted.

Well this can be objectively supported.

I have to say it must a significant coup for Wycliffe to get a woman New Testament Lecturer from another college if Custard is telling the truth.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Nightlamp
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Wycliffe got a mention at General synod according to Thinking Anglicans.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Wycliffe got a mention at General synod according to Thinking Anglicans.

I saw that. Perhaps that answers the question "why did Aitken choose now to talk to the media about this?" I mean - the story was dying a death until his article appeared and I couldn't see what Turnbull et al could gain from Aitken's "helpful" intervention. But if he and Turnbull knew that GS was going to raise the matter, it makes sense to get your retaliation in first, doesn't it? And neatly timed so that all those liberal Anglicans who read the Guardian will see it just as they are about to discuss this matter in GS.

The whole thing stinks IMHO.

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Turnbull: Male Conservative Evangelical and therefore not very intelligent or academically gifted.

Storkey: Female Liberal (i.e. Open) Evangelical and therefore highly intelligent and academically gifted.

Hurrah for a priori affiliations! [Disappointed]

Everyone has a priori affiliations and opinions, Numpty. I won't comment on Turnbull's academic gifts - on the issue which made me join this thread they are irrelevant. But, regardless of a priori affiliations, don't you think Jonathan Aitken's comments about Elaine Storkey were uncalled for, given the matter was sub-judice, prejudicial, and showed (as Oscar indicated) at least the possibility of some insider knowledge?

The details of the disciplinary action against Elaine Storkey are not in the public domain and as pete173 said earlier, the lack of comment about them by those directly involved is normal and prudent. So it is fair comment to both question and criticise both the timing and manner of Jonathan Aitken's intervention on that issue at least. So far as the rest of what he said goes, it looks like free speech to me, as were the generally critical comments on the online Guardian. I do not know that he is any sort of stalking horse here. But his behaviour and its timing do give rise to reasonable suspicion, regardless of a priori affiliations.

I've admired Elaine Storkey for a long time and heard her give many fine talks at conferences and, recently, at my local church, on a wide range of subjects. I sail pretty much with the Open Evangelicals on most issues, but that is a matter of conviction, not personal loyalties. I'm a nonco, Numpty. Personal loyalties are one thing, unethical behaviour another.

[ 08. July 2007, 07:16: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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daronmedway
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The seeds of schism are germiniated in the ground of partiality, Barnabas. I haven't commented either positively or negatively concerning Aitken's comments. Your suggestion that I'm defendimg him is precisely the sort the a priori assumption that I'm talking about.
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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Your suggestion that I'm defendimg him is precisely the sort the a priori assumption that I'm talking about.

Certainly your previous sarcastic post would seem to be defending Aiken.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
The seeds of schism are germiniated in the ground of partiality, Barnabas. I haven't commented either positively or negatively concerning Aitken's comments. Your suggestion that I'm defendimg him is precisely the sort the a priori assumption that I'm talking about.

I don't think I was doing that, Numpty. I was asking for your opinion about Aitken's comments; admittedly in a leading way, but then I do think it is very hard to defend his comments. Actually I was thinking, "Setting all loyalties aside, surely we can agree on that?". I believe you to be fair-minded.

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Your suggestion that I'm defendimg him is precisely the sort the a priori assumption that I'm talking about.

Certainly your previous sarcastic post would seem to be defending Aiken.
Nightlamp, my sarcasm was designed to be a criticism of your opinion; not a defence a Aiken. Would you please try to take things more personally in future? Thank you. [Biased]
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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Your suggestion that I'm defendimg him is precisely the sort the a priori assumption that I'm talking about.

Certainly your previous sarcastic post would seem to be defending Aiken.
Nightlamp, my sarcasm was designed to be a criticism of your opinion; not a defence a Aiken. Would you please try to take things more personally in future? Thank you. [Biased]
I was attacking Aiken's opinion and you came to his defence. I think it is perfectly fair to say you were defending his opinion.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:

It seems to me that Aitken (having talked with Turnbull) has been used by Turnbull in a rather distasteful way to smear Elaine Storkey, knowing that she is in no position to be able to respond whilst this disciplinary matter is still in hand.

This would seem to make sense to me since the other information that Aiken has access to is a quote from a 'confidential Church of England report' which could have only have come from a few people. According to Custard the Nuremberg quote did not occur at a meeting with students so we are left with Aiken getting information from one senior source in Wycliffe.
I guess the no comment from Wycliffe is now being replaced by a spun character assassination in the best New Labour tradition.

1) So Jonathan Aitken, former cabinet minister, is being used as a pawn by a college principal who never taught him? That seems slightly incredible to my mind.
2) I've got a pretty good idea of much of what that report says, so it hardly means that Aitken is being briefed by the SMT. It's confidential in that it is only published to the House of Bishops and college council (AFAIK), but it's widely referred to by the council and SMT when talking about changes in college structures.
3) The Nuremberg quote, if it happened, might well have been at a meeting with students. There have been plenty of lectures and a fair few meetings I haven't been to!
4) Is Richard a church historian? Well, he's got a PhD in it (Evangelical social reformers, IIRC) and he lectures it at Wycliffe (and FWIW, he's thought of as one of the best lecturers here).

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Callan
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Originally posted by Custard:

quote:
So Jonathan Aitken, former cabinet minister, is being used as a pawn by a college principal who never taught him? That seems slightly incredible to my mind.
Who said pawn? You can co-operate with someone without being a pawn, you know.

FWIW, I would be surprised if Aitken had rushed into press without consulting Turnbull. I could be wrong of course. But it seems to me likely. If I were going to rush into print to defend someone I'd make damn sure that I wasn't going to make things worse and consult with them beforehand. As you point out, Aitken is a former member of the cabinet.

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Leprechaun

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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:


The whole thing stinks IMHO.

I said this several pages back about the issue of different sides using the media as a way to play out this debate.

When it was only the other side leaking letters, details of meetings and verging on character assasination it didn't seem to bother you that much.

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Your suggestion that I'm defendimg him is precisely the sort the a priori assumption that I'm talking about.

Certainly your previous sarcastic post would seem to be defending Aiken.
Nightlamp, my sarcasm was designed to be a criticism of your opinion; not a defence a Aiken. Would you please try to take things more personally in future? Thank you. [Biased]
I was attacking Aiken's opinion and you came to his defence. I think it is perfectly fair to say you were defending his opinion.
Are you really saying that critiquing a person's a priori partiality necessarily constitutes support for the view that they oppose? Surely, that's just positing a false dichotomy?
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Nightlamp
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Call me Numpty I posted this
quote:
It seems we think that Aiken 'spun' a certain image of Richard Turnbull as he spun a certain image of Elaine Stokey. One was positive and academic and the other spiteful and mean.
To which you responded

quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Turnbull: Male Conservative Evangelical and therefore not very intelligent or academically gifted.

Storkey: Female Liberal (i.e. Open) Evangelical and therefore highly intelligent and academically gifted.

Hurrah for a priori affiliations!

I know that I have never made such assumptions so that aspect of your post is complete and utter crap. As a response to my actual post, as opposed to the imaginary one in your brain, you can only be saying that Aitkin’s pen portraits are accurate.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Who said pawn? You can co-operate with someone without being a pawn, you know.

FWIW, I would be surprised if Aitken had rushed into press without consulting Turnbull. I could be wrong of course. But it seems to me likely. If I were going to rush into print to defend someone I'd make damn sure that I wasn't going to make things worse and consult with them beforehand. As you point out, Aitken is a former member of the cabinet. [/QB]

OK - lets rephrase that as I wasn't especially clear.

Even if Jonathan Aitken is doing this at someone else's behest (and I really don't know about that one way or the other), he is not being manipulated to say something he disagrees with. He is saying what he genuinely thinks to be the case.

And Mr Aitken (I don't know him) is allegedly very bright, almost certainly has the skills to see through spin fairly well, trained here under Alister McGrath rather than under Richard Turnbull, and despite his political allegiance is not generally considered to be a conservative evangelical.

We've already had more than enough character assassinations. The more the truth comes out, the more it clears the name of Richard and of the college, but I don't want that to involve any more besmirching of anyone else than is absolutely necessary. I really hope they don't end up stooping to the same level as whoever wrote that vicious rubbish in the first place.

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:


We've already had more than enough character assassinations. The more the truth comes out, the more it clears the name of Richard and of the college, but I don't want that to involve any more besmirching of anyone else than is absolutely necessary. I really hope they don't end up stooping to the same level as whoever wrote that vicious rubbish in the first place.

Why should it be "absolutely necessary" to "besmirch" anyone? The way you put it suggests that under the circumstances a certain amount of reciprocal besmirching is OK. Besmirching is never OK, even if you feel you've been besmirched.

Perhaps you didn't mean that - you don't normally write like that?

Presumably the "vicious rubbish" is either the original Guardian article (OP) or the document reported in that article to be circulating amongst staff?

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Gordon Cheng

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The Bible writers thought it 'absolutely necessary' to besmirch the reputations of Jezebel and Herod's mother in law, unfair though it must seem to us.

I think you do learn something about the character of those being criticized by turning the spotlight back on those doing the criticizing. As a result of the Bible's smear campaign, I have a greater respect for Elijah and John the Baptist than I otherwise might have.

similarly with Richard Turnbull. I don't know him from a London bus, but the more I've read of this thread the more I'm starting to really like him.

[ 08. July 2007, 23:00: Message edited by: Gordon Cheng ]

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Barnabas62
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Hi Gordon

Nice try, but I don't think it works. From your POV the Bible writers are providing history without error after the event. If that shows up various folks in a pretty unfavourable light, it is a consequence of truth telling. Mr Aitken, by his own admission, is publicising hearsay re an event subject to disciplinary review and not decided. For all I know, Dr Storkey's job is at stake. Given that those directly involved have refrained from direct comment, which is good practice in these cases, Mr Aitken's besmirching is hardly in the same category as the OT examples you give.

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Gordon Cheng

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Unless it turns out to be true!

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Barnabas62
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That's where we disagree. I wish we had not lost the social value of respect for sub judice silence. It is a voluntary (or in some places legally enforceable) restraint of free speech for a greater good.

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Barnabas62
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Should have added this. On the issue of using leaks etc to further causes, basically I'm in agreement with Lep. There is a due process for complaining about the behaviour of principals and lecturers which is not helped by the gossip. Going public may be justifiable if the due process is itself flawed or corrupted - but it is a late or last resort, and a double-edged sword. What I am saying is right for Dr Storkey would also apply to any investigation of complaints brought properly against Richard Turnbull. Publicity and sub-judice are both swords which cut both ways.

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