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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
"Never let your values prevent you from doing what is right".
Close.
"Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right!" - Salvor Hardin (Asimov, Foundation)
Your friendly neighborhood sci-fi geek.
Thanks. The exact quote is better, I think.
B62 (Elderly sci-fi geek)
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ethne Alba:
But ISTM either Wycliffe is determind to blast this one through and emerge with their Principle.
Or with their principles.
For that pun to work it needs to be 'Principal'. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
It seems to me that there is some truth in what Custard is saying: there are some 'cradle UK evangelicals' (who are historically Arminian) that do seem to be caught in a self-critical and overly revistionistic malaise concerning their ecclesiatical identity. This involves, among other things, dabbling with open theism, challenging the intrinsic authority of scripture, flirting with universalism, and playing around with the atonement. I'm thinking Brian McClaren, Eugene Petersen, and Clarke Pinnock devotees.
Whereas, on the the other hand, you have other UK evangelicals (Calvinistic) who are busy re-discovering the Puritans and aligning themselves with much of the Refomed FUNdamentalism coming out of Seattle, New York, Minneapolis, Southern California etc.. I'm thinking of John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Tim Keller et al fans.
These two camps are most definately moving in different directions... fast! One is moving towards a very robust re-expression of historically rooted Reformed evangelicalism; some might say 'real' or true evangelicalism. The other is moving into an much more ecclesiologically and theologically eclectic nominal evangelicalism: some might say 'post'-evangelicalism or even neo-liberalism.
Are you really arguing that the entire evangelical movement can be made to fit into those two neat little pigeon holes? People are usually a bit more independent-minded than that...
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Wanderer:
Numpty, you've got me really confused. It seems to me that you are saying that an evangelical is defined by their allegiance to History (the evangelical tradition) rather than to Scripture, but I suspect I'm misunderstanding you here. Could you clarify things for me, please, as I'm even denser than normal this morning?
Many contemporary Evangelicals think that an allegience to scripture is nothing more than an allegience to the words on the pages of their bibles. This a terribly inadequate and naive understanding of what it is to be an evangelical in relation to scripture. What I'm saying is that evangelicalism has a doctrinal and hermeneutic heritage that many contemporary evangelicals know virtually nothing about.
This gives rise to a terribly dangerous 'me and my bible' approach to doctine and biblical interpretation. IMO, it is necessary, if one is going to claim to be evangelical, to have at least some working knowledge of the cardinal doctrines of historical evangelicalism. And this, indeed is where tradition comes in. Admittedly, the evangelical 'tradition' is primarily a textual tradition: it is enshrined in seminal works of theology rather than in ecclesiastical practices, but it is tradition nonetheless and it is necessary.
The point is this: it is more likely that contemporary evangelicals will engage with scripture evangelically if they understand how evangelicals have historically engaged with scripture. In short, we should read old books, not just new ones!
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
It seems to me that there is some truth in what Custard is saying: there are some 'cradle UK evangelicals' (who are historically Arminian) that do seem to be caught in a self-critical and overly revistionistic malaise concerning their ecclesiatical identity. This involves, among other things, dabbling with open theism, challenging the intrinsic authority of scripture, flirting with universalism, and playing around with the atonement. I'm thinking Brian McClaren, Eugene Petersen, and Clarke Pinnock devotees.
Whereas, on the the other hand, you have other UK evangelicals (Calvinistic) who are busy re-discovering the Puritans and aligning themselves with much of the Refomed FUNdamentalism coming out of Seattle, New York, Minneapolis, Southern California etc.. I'm thinking of John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Tim Keller et al fans.
These two camps are most definately moving in different directions... fast! One is moving towards a very robust re-expression of historically rooted Reformed evangelicalism; some might say 'real' or true evangelicalism. The other is moving into an much more ecclesiologically and theologically eclectic nominal evangelicalism: some might say 'post'-evangelicalism or even neo-liberalism.
Are you really arguing that the entire evangelical movement can be made to fit into those two neat little pigeon holes? People are usually a bit more independent-minded than that...
I'm not particularly precious about it. It's just a personal observation. However, I think that Reformed evangelicalism is undergoing a bit of a renaissance at the moment. Of course there are different flavours and shades out there but I think the general trend is toward a polarisation of historically rooted (conservative) and postmodern (open) expressions of evangelicalism.
[ 11. July 2007, 20:40: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
This gives rise to a terribly dangerous 'me and my bible' approach to doctine and biblical interpretation.
Sola Scripture is such a dangerous idea. I wonder how Luther survived without all the evangelical tradition?
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
This gives rise to a terribly dangerous 'me and my bible' approach to doctine and biblical interpretation.
Sola Scripture is such a dangerous idea. I wonder how Luther survived without all the evangelical tradition?
Sola scriptura doesn't mean anyone can pull doctirne out of their hat through private and solitary bible study; whatismore, Luther never claimed to have done that! Luther drew on the Church Fathers a great deal, was meticulous in his research, and had a very discursive approach to issues of doctrine.
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Sola Scriptura is so often misunderstood!
As used by Luther at al, it was saying that if something isn't in the Bible (e.g. indulgences), you don't need it for salvation, but using reason and tradition to help understand it.
As used by some later Reformed types (who theologically were a lot closer to some of the Radicals than to Luther, Calvin, etc), it was used to mean "just me and my Bible".
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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Sola scriptura doesn't mean anyone can pull doctirne out of their hat through private and solitary bible study; whatismore, Luther never claimed to have done that! Luther drew on the Church Fathers a great deal, was meticulous in his research, and had a very discursive approach to issues of doctrine.
As I said; how did Luther survive without those Evangelical writers?
[ 12. July 2007, 13:36: Message edited by: Nightlamp ]
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Sola scriptura doesn't mean anyone can pull doctirne out of their hat through private and solitary bible study; whatismore, Luther never claimed to have done that! Luther drew on the Church Fathers a great deal, was meticulous in his research, and had a very discursive approach to issues of doctrine.
As I said; how did Luther survive without those Evangelical writers?
Some of them were evangelical.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
Well another article about Wycliffe found here. It seems to over played the number of lecturers leaving the college.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
And the PPH review. People I've spoken to who have seen it say it is generally positive towards Wycliffe.
And the attitude of college to students discussing the issue. Richard's comment on it to students was something along the lines of "feel free to say whatever you think is wise".
Do you see the Wycliffe inquisition clamping down on me for discussing it on a widely read internet forum or on my blog?
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
Numpty, I'm a little confused.
You say that
quote:
Many contemporary Evangelicals think that an allegience to scripture is nothing more than an allegience to the words on the pages of their bibles
quote:
This gives rise to a terribly dangerous 'me and my bible' approach to doctine and biblical interpretation
And further on you say that tradition is "necessary".
What you basically seem to be arguing is that evangelicals must interpret scripture within the bounds of established evangelical orthodoxy . If an individual's informed study of scripture leads them to depart from that 'orthodoxy', they cease to be evangelicals. I'm not quite sure how this differs from a catholic understanding of scripture interpreted within tradition. And if we're going to bring tradition into it, why privilege the opinions of 16th century stiffs over 12th century ones? Why limit our embracing of tradition to evangelicals? Surely we just end up going round in circles..."the evangelical tradition derives its validity from sola scriptura, but simultaneously over rides it". And the refomation still started with an individual challenging established orthodoxy through a personal interpretation of the Bible, however much Luther might have taken fright and tried to establish a new orthodoxy of his own. It then diversified as lots of other individuals departed from him in turn through their own personal interpretations.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
PS Given that the evangelical tradition hasn't been able to agree on baptism, communion, church government and salvation for starters, how can it definitively interpret scripture?
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
And the attitude of college to students discussing the issue. Richard's comment on it to students was something along the lines of "feel free to say whatever you think is wise".
Do you see the Wycliffe inquisition clamping down on me for discussing it on a widely read internet forum or on my blog?
Well, there would be no reason for RT to clamp down on you because you generally appear as an apologist for Turnbull. It seems to me that the students must have relatively little idea of the distress felt by many of the staff.
Posts: 143 | Registered: Jun 2007
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
And the attitude of college to students discussing the issue. Richard's comment on it to students was something along the lines of "feel free to say whatever you think is wise".
Do you see the Wycliffe inquisition clamping down on me for discussing it on a widely read internet forum or on my blog?
Well, there would be no reason for RT to clamp down on you because you generally appear as an apologist for Turnbull. It seems to me that the students must have relatively little idea of the distress felt by many of the staff.
Welcome to the Ship, Scribehunter, and I hope you enjoy it.
I think there's a bit of a non sequitur in your post. Richard Turnbull has released the students to say what they think is wise, regardless of their prior opinions and loyalties. The use of login names and the freedom to reveal or conceal membership of Wycliffe seem to me to be sufficient to prevent any control by Richard Turnbull, even if he wanted that.
I've been reading Custard's posts for two and half years on this board. We both agree and disagree. Custard is a truthful Shipmate IME. So Richard Turnbull is not gagging comment by students. But I reckon that it is fair to say that anyone who might be called on for info as part of ongoing or undecided disciplinary proceedings, or who is directly involved in them, is probably wise to refrain from public comment. As indeed Richard Turnbull and Elaine Storkey have done. That is sensible in any case. Others may take the view that there has been too much talk already and it hasn't done the college a lot of good. That is also a very reasonable view.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
...I reckon that it is fair to say that anyone who might be called on for info as part of ongoing or undecided disciplinary proceedings, or who is directly involved in them, is probably wise to refrain from public comment. As indeed Richard Turnbull and Elaine Storkey have done.
I would agree 100% with that. Which is why I found Aitken's article very disturbing. He was clearly speaking "for" Turnbull. Not only was it a very biased account, it also threw into the public domain matters which had previously been undisclosed and which Elaine Storkey (and those members of staff in her side in this dispute) have no way of refuting without either breaking their silence (and incurring more disciplinary action) or by resorting to the same tactics of getting a third party to do the talking for you (which is frankly dishonest).
The questions I raised before (about who gave Aitken confidential information and how much Turnbull knew about Aitken's intentions to go to print on the matter) are still unanswered.
I came across this comment (about the staff at WH) on another forum: "Privately, there is tremendous outrage about his (Aitken's) claims which are clearly ventriloquized Turnbull spin, and I have no doubt that this indignation will come out into the open before long." Clearly, only a real staff insider would know how accurate this is, but it is sadly all too plausible.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750
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Posted
I wasn't meaning to imply that Custard was not speaking truthfully according to his understanding of the situation at WH. [One doesn't expect apologists to tell lies, but one does expect them to be a bit one-sided!] Indeed, the letter from three common room presidents also confirmed a basically positive view of things. But the fact is that there is a staff level problem at Wycliffe (personal knowledge), which the students don't seem to be fully aware of. Hence the contradictions between the letter from three common room presidents and the letter from three former principals. My take on this contradiction is that the three former principals were obviously in contact with members of staff (as I think was the original Grauniad article).
Posts: 143 | Registered: Jun 2007
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
But the fact is that there is a staff level problem at Wycliffe (personal knowledge), which the students don't seem to be fully aware of. Hence the contradictions between the letter from three common room presidents and the letter from three former principals. My take on this contradiction is that the three former principals were obviously in contact with members of staff (as I think was the original Grauniad article).
I have a similar POV. But I don't think it has done any good to have some of those differences aired (probably confusingly) in public before all attempts to resolve them by quiet diplomacy or due process had been exhausted. I wasn't "on the inside" so I don't know what it was like, of course. I've no doubt those who went to the press had reasons which were good and sufficient for them. But in my view, they crossed a line that one should cross very reluctantly. "Washing dirty linen in public" is never edifying and often counter-productive.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
But the fact is that there is a staff level problem at Wycliffe (personal knowledge), which the students don't seem to be fully aware of.
So Scribehunter, are you a member of staff at Wycliffe and haven't told us yet, or else does Custard know more about the situation than you do?
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
But the fact is that there is a staff level problem at Wycliffe (personal knowledge), which the students don't seem to be fully aware of.
So Scribehunter, are you a member of staff at Wycliffe and haven't told us yet, or else does Custard know more about the situation than you do?
TBH if I were Scribehunter I wouldn't answer that. We all know that anonymity on these boards is not leakproof, but such as it is we are entitled to use it.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Numpty, many thnaks for your answer back here. It makes a lot of sense to me, and gives me a clear idea of where you are coming from. Thank you.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
BroJames
Seconded, despite Scribehunter's statement of knowledge, given the present circs.
[ 13. July 2007, 10:11: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
But the fact is that there is a staff level problem at Wycliffe (personal knowledge), which the students don't seem to be fully aware of.
So Scribehunter, are you a member of staff at Wycliffe and haven't told us yet, or else does Custard know more about the situation than you do?
TBH if I were Scribehunter I wouldn't answer that. We all know that anonymity on these boards is not leakproof, but such as it is we are entitled to use it.
S/He's certainly entitled to use it. Then again, s/he'll have to self-identify for the 'personal knowledge' statement to hold any worth. There are too many people who lay claim to that sort of thing on the internet (with their 'knowledge' coming through their husband's grandma's dog). Personally, I reckon Wycliffe's staff have more worthwhile ways of concluding this situation than trying to swing opinion on random internet bulletin boards by means of anonymous posts.
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Then again, s/he'll have to self-identify for the 'personal knowledge' statement to hold any worth.
Oh, I don't know. I've been quite happy to accept Custard's postings without expecting him (her?) to self-identify more specifically. In principle I'm willing to do the same for Scribehunter unless reason emerges to doubt him/her.
[ETA a number of obvious ways come to mind in which Scribehunter might have knowledge of the state of affairs among WH staff without actually being a member of the staff. And Scribehunter is only saying that he/she is aware of a situation amongst staff which Custard does not appear to be aware of.]
[ 13. July 2007, 11:19: Message edited by: BroJames ]
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
The CEN today reports the appointment of Rev'd Dr Liz Hoare as a new lecturer (in Spirituality - which appears to include liturgy / worship) at WH.
Liz was a colleague of mine and is currently part time on the staff at Cranmer Hall. She has a lot of parish experience and is a good addition to WH.
She also writes (under her maiden name of Culling) - including for the CEN...
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
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I_am_not_Job
Shipmate
# 3634
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Posted
quote:
The CEN today reports the appointment of Rev'd Dr Liz Hoare as a new lecturer (in Spirituality - which appears to include liturgy / worship) at WH.
Liz was a colleague of mine and is currently part time on the staff at Cranmer Hall. She has a lot of parish experience and is a good addition to WH.
She also writes (under her maiden name of Culling) - including for the CEN...
An, 'the Spiritual Director' of CEN. Good stuff. Always comes across as very wise and sensible. Hopefully will do some good at Wycliffe.
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
So no new NT Lecturer then?
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
Mind you two of them are new which suggests either it is a growing college or some jobs have been re-jigged so are new in someways.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
PS Given that the evangelical tradition hasn't been able to agree on baptism, communion, church government and salvation for starters, how can it definitively interpret scripture?
It can't definitively interpret scripture; the whole idea is to be constantly reforming. However, if you don't know your tradition you cannot reform it; you can only depart from it, or rediscover it. I'm not saying that the evangelical tradition offers a definitive interpretation of scripture; I'm saying that evangelicalism has interpreted scripture in a particular way and that to be wilfully ignorant of that way is tantamount to departing from evangelicalism and becoming, by default, something else.
[ 13. July 2007, 16:18: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
But the fact is that there is a staff level problem at Wycliffe (personal knowledge), which the students don't seem to be fully aware of.
So Scribehunter, are you a member of staff at Wycliffe and haven't told us yet, or else does Custard know more about the situation than you do?
If I wanted to use my real name Mr Dinghy Sailor then I would have used it! I'm sure that Custard knows the student scene at Wycliffe intimately.
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Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
So no new NT Lecturer then?
Interviews were on Wednesday (11th July). No public news yet.
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
But the fact is that there is a staff level problem at Wycliffe (personal knowledge), which the students don't seem to be fully aware of.
So Scribehunter, are you a member of staff at Wycliffe and haven't told us yet, or else does Custard know more about the situation than you do?
If I wanted to use my real name Mr Dinghy Sailor then I would have used it! I'm sure that Custard knows the student scene at Wycliffe intimately.
I understand, and please don't be upset. However, at the moment I don't know you from Adam, so good practice dictates that I can't accept any claim to personal/priveliged knowledge. I'm interested that you call me "Mr DS" by the way. Are you assuming I'm male, or have you done the (vanishingly small amount of) digging required to work out my real name? ![[Biased]](wink.gif) (Please don't post it if you have)
BroJames I feel Custard's a bit of a different case. Save to say, a not-overly-strenuous amount of digging reveals that there's a student at Wycliffe who has been known to use a similar name (I shan't venture further for fear of getting Host-bashed) and the poster Custard has a few thousand posts to his name which make me believe he knows what he's talking about.
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750
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Posted
Hey DS,
I am not upset. [Insert stupid happy face symbol here] I don't see any reason to doubt Custard either. He agrees that there is a staff problem at Wycliffe, so what is the issue? I was just mapping out a coherent way to understand the issue bearing in mind both of the three-authored letters (former principals and student presidents).
Maybe we won't know for years. Trinity Bristol kept its dark secrets well hidden for decades. So has Oak Hill.
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
quote:
Trinity Bristol kept its dark secrets well hidden for decades. So has Oak Hill.
This sounds like the introduction to a series of fantasy thrillers. "The Kabalistic Colleges Conundrum" or "Espionage among the Evos".
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Tyler Durden
Shipmate
# 2996
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
Trinity Bristol kept its dark secrets well hidden for decades.
It must have done: I was at Trinity (in the noughties) and don't know what you're talking about! Can anyone enlighten me...?
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Have you ever noticed that anyone driving slower than you is a moron, while anyone driving faster is a maniac? Jerry Seinfeld
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
And I was there a decade or so earlier and I'm as mystified. Unless the "dark secret" referred to is author and noted biblical archaeologist, Son of Bim....
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
I'd be very surprised if Oak Hill has any "dark secrets" - that last post of SH's sounded too much like "let's smear a couple of other evangelical colleges too without even needing to mention specific accusations".
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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
John Bimsom is still there - nice bloke - what did he do wrong?
Absolutely nothing! Great guy! I just wish he'd write a sequel to "The Prophet Motive" - a very funny book.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I'd be very surprised if Oak Hill has any "dark secrets" - that last post of SH's sounded too much like "let's smear a couple of other evangelical colleges too without even needing to mention specific accusations".
Congratulations Custard! Over 3,000 posts and still not cynical about Christian institutions. Anyway, I am sorry to sidetrack people - the point is that a dispute among staff can be very serious and not really communicated to students. Indeed in this case I think the Wycliffe staff ought to be congratulated and thanked for not letting the troublesome dispute interfere too much with their teaching. Well done everyone! But we all know it is not really sustainable over the long haul.
Posts: 143 | Registered: Jun 2007
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
You could elaborate a little on those 'dark secrets'. Are they in the public domain? No one is going to believe vague insinuations.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750
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Posted
This is pretty much tangential to the issue I was attempting to spell out. As for material in the public domain there is (in the nature of the case) not very much.
Re Oak Hill: Read Gerald Bray's editorial in Churchman vol. 107; year 1993; p.292 which refers to 'a particularly nasty and brutal' purge.
Posts: 143 | Registered: Jun 2007
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Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750
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Posted
Re Trinity Bristol: see Alister McGrath, J. I. Packer: A Biography (Grand Rapids: Baker, 1997), pp. 170-179.
Posts: 143 | Registered: Jun 2007
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
In that case, they're hardly secrets.
Oak Hill's reputation in particular is still recovering from that stuff - even their last Bishops' inspection report, which is somewhat glowing hasn't seemed to change the popular perceptions much.
Wycliffe's last report, of course, was heavily critical of the vocational training bit - hence many of the subsequent events.
And I was advised not to go to Trinity, but Mr Kovoor seems to have turned it around rather spectacularly. Again, hardly secret.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
And for some reason you seem to associate "dark secrets" with "conservative evangelicals being in leadership positions"...
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
I've just chased those references up from Scribehunter.
The Trinity Bristol one is the section of McGrath's book referring to the negotiations over the formation of Trinity by merging three other theological colleges - negotiations which had misunderstandings at various stages (as do most of these things, I'd imagine), but ended with everyone happy. Not exactly dark or secret.
The Oak Hill one is in this context:
quote:
Of the six Evangelical training colleges, it was the one which was perceived to be the least "open" which was slated for closure, and the response of the college authorities was both quick and revealing. Elements suspected of being resistant to "openness" were purged in a particularly nasty and brutal manner, and when the Church authorities took a second look they gratefully announced that the teaching of the college was not in fact as "narrow" as they had been led to believe.
I doubt Oak Hill would want that bit to be kept darkly secret either. Certainly given the amount the college has changed and improved since then, and the fact that they are still seen as being too narrow by many, it seems unlikely.
But this is all a tangent anyway...
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
And for some reason you seem to associate "dark secrets" with "conservative evangelicals being in leadership positions"...
I am not sure who you are quoting here. Not me, that is for sure. My point is/was that staff in theological colleges often keep their struggles/difficulties secret from the students (let along the rest of the world).
Posts: 143 | Registered: Jun 2007
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