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Originally posted by Custard.:

I think pretty much everyone here is hurting as a result of the articles.

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Originally posted by Arrietty:
If members of staff are really being chosen in order to maintain some kind of balance between different para-church organisations I find that an extraordinary state of affairs, and if it could be proved it would almost certainly breach Equal Opportunities legislation.

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Originally posted by Amos:

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Originally posted by Archimandrite:
The University's task force on Permanent Private Halls (the PPH Review Panel), headed by Sir Colin Lucas, the previous Vice-Chancellor, may well have things to say about these developents, and these in turn might affect such institutions as S Stephen's House..

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The Staggers staff seemed vigorous and reasonably happy last time I looked. I'm not sure I see how trouble at one PPH would affect the institution of PPHs in general.

ETA: Nor can I see Bishops who were planning to send ordinands to Wycliffe sending them to Staggers instead!

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Originally posted by Custard.:

Richard Turnbull is:

• a minister with a lot more experience of leading churches than any other theological college prinicipal in the C of E

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Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
PPHs also gave early non-conformity i.e. late 19th century, an entry into Oxford (and Cambridge) and I guess Catholicism to from the list.

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Originally posted by Custard.:
Richard Turnbull is:

• a minister with a lot more experience of leading churches than any other theological college prinicipal in the C of E

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Originally posted by Edward::Green:

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Originally posted by Custard.:

Richard Turnbull is:

• a minister with a lot more experience of leading churches than any other theological college prinicipal in the C of E

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Quite a statement!

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Originally posted by Custard.:
When Richard arrived, Wycliffe was:

• doing well as a place of academic theology, but with a poor reputation among many evangelicals because of the lack of emphasis on the more practical side of ministry, particularly in terms of preaching (and remember that preaching Christ is seen in evangelical circles as the heart of what ministry is about)

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Originally posted by BIg Carp:
I am sorry....but despite what some people say...the mass exodus of some of the most compassionate people in theological education is a sad reflection of a diasterous appointment. You can be brilliant at preaching but if you cannot 'put on love' to your own collegues then there is something seriously wrong. This is another reflection of the conservative 'right' who constantly push for their perception of 'soundness' or 'rightness' at the expense of the Love of Christ. It reminds me of so many other instances, Word Alives departure from Spring Harvest. UCCF's treatment of Fusion, Reforms attitude to Alpha, to name but a few. They are hardly great examples of Christian Love.

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Yer, right. 'Cos in all those examples the problems were 100% one sided weren't they?

The wonderful thing about being right all the time is that you never have to say sorry.

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Originally posted by Sean D:

Someone asked who appointed Richard Turnbull. I don't know the ins and outs of the procedure, but presumably it was the Hall Council, whose names are I think on the Wycliffe website. They're hardly all bombastic conservatives e.g. James Jones (hairy left wing eco-bishop), Fran Beckett (chief exec of the Church Urban Fund), David Urquhart (bishop of birmingham, not well known as a bastion of conservative evangelicalism). Hardly a Southern Baptist takeover!

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Originally posted by BIg Carp:
It reminds me of so many other instances, Word Alives departure from Spring Harvest. UCCF's treatment of Fusion, Reforms attitude to Alpha, to name but a few. They are hardly great examples of Christian Love.

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Originally posted by Nightlamp:

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Originally posted by Edward::Green:

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Originally posted by Custard.:

Richard Turnbull is:

• a minister with a lot more experience of leading churches than any other theological college prinicipal in the C of E

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Quite a statement!

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Well he has been 8 years a vicar and never had a role in a theological college before Wycliffe. George Kovooer was 10 years a priest in India and 4 years a priest in England. A Tutor at one college and now a Principal. Who is the better qualified?

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It's a relic, of course, of the old days when anyone with an MA and premises within a certain distance of Carfax could own and operate a Hall which would send students to sit the exams and vivas necessary for a degree, but which wouldn't have had as many facilities as the colleges.

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PPHs also gave early non-conformity i.e. late 19th century, an entry into Oxford (and Cambridge) and I guess Catholicism to from the list. However these PPH have over recent years converted into full Colleges (Mansfield and Manchester).

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... gave them a chance, as in, you had to be an Anglican to go to university!

Poor Wycliffe , I hope it doesn't go the way of Oak Hill, though I hasten to add , because it had an important role as being I'd say both open and trad evo without being purely conservative, and kept a lot of people happy, at home, yet also with some challenge.

Hi Emma, btw! (am I cool, I know her too )

another ex-RPC

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Hope for everything; expect nothing

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Originally posted by ken:

This "my College Principal's bigger than your College Principal" argument is one of the weirder willy-waving contests I've seen in years.

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Originally posted by Superslug:
Where I am studying, I am greatful that there is no percieved pressure to think a certain way, but encouraged just to work through issues honestly and seeing the whole learning process as an open ended journey of discovery.

I wonder if this seemingly polarisation of views on certain issues, hampers the student's freedom of thought and reflection.

If there is a sense that staff are under pressure to conform what hope is there for students?

SS

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It reminds me of so many other instances, Word Alives departure from Spring Harvest. UCCF's treatment of Fusion, Reforms attitude to Alpha, to name but a few. They are hardly great examples of Christian Love.

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This reminds me weirdly of the Labour Party in the 1980s. The Labour Party is a tribal organisation. We are the organised working class of Britain. They are the rich and powerful. Whatever a Labour government does is socialism. The Tories are bad and wrong. Then suddenly things changed. The hard left emerged. Suddenly it wasn't enough to be part of the tribe any more. You had to have sound doctrine. (In this case Marxist rather than evangelical.)

Now it strikes me that evangelicalism is tribal in much the same way. We are the ordinary bible believing church goers. They are decadent crypto-papist Dagon worshippers, or worse, liberals. Evangelicals stand for Biblical Christianity. They stand for Something Else. Now if your alliances are drawn on tribal grounds you can encompass a big tent and evangelicalism is a big tent. It's a bit like those insects which have evolved to get into bee hives. If you try and enter a bee hive you'll get stung to death but once you've got past the first line of defence everyone just assumes you've been cleared by management and ignores you. This has obscured the fact that a lot of open evangelicals are basically just a aging hippies. OoW wouldn't have happened without open evangelicals. Steve Chalke thinks PSA is cosmic child abuse. George Carey has just provided the imprimatur for a book by Hans Kung, describing him as "our greatest living theologian". Yes, that Hans Kung, the Swiss liberal protestant in Roman orders. The con evos aren't hippies. They're pissed as hell that the good guys won at the Restoration and they want a re-match. Now increasingly the con evos aren't tribal, they're doctrinal. In order to be one of the tribe you have to have read Kapital, er, Pierced For Our Transgressions and be Sound On Doctrine.

Hence the whole UCCF/ Spring Harvest bust up. Hence Tom Wright complaining about being "stabbed in the side" over that whole petition thing last year. The con evos are revolting!* They're coming out of the kitchen because there's something they forgot to say to you! Con evos are doing it for themselves! The next few years are going to be very interesting indeed as instead of three big fractions in the C of E you get a kaleidescope of disparate fractions within fractions. Interesting times as the Chinese like to say.

*Pun? Moi?

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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This has obscured the fact that a lot of open evangelicals are basically just aging hippies.

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Hey Callan, I resemble that remark!!

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Originally posted by Callan:
The con evos aren't hippies. They're pissed as hell that the good guys won at the Restoration and they want a re-match.

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Nice touch ... a la 'history is written by the winners'. The good guys always win don't they ... except when they don't

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Originally posted by Callan:
Now increasingly the con evos aren't tribal, they're doctrinal.

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Would you explain this a bit more Callan? Are you saying that the other tribes aren't bothered about doctrine? You appear to be saying that it is okay to reject people due to their 'tribe' just not according to what they believe?

I'm sure that's not what you meant ... so please expand.

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Originally posted by Callan:
Now increasingly the con evos aren't tribal, they're doctrinal.

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Would you explain this a bit more Callan? Are you saying that the other tribes aren't bothered about doctrine? You appear to be saying that it is okay to reject people due to their 'tribe' just not according to what they believe?

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
That's how I understand what Callan's saying. He's not passing any judgement on what sort of rejection or acceptance is, well, acceptable.

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I assumed the rest, it is your last statement that intrigues me. Once you talk about tribes, aren't you talking about who's in and out? Isn't that the point? (I'm a Crystal Palace fan ... which means that I'm very lonely and no one else wants to know me ... by joining a tribe, you are NOT joining all the others.) If that's the case then all that has changed is the criteria.

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Originally posted by pete173:
As someone who spent the 80s trying to purge Trots from the Labour Party in Islington, this feels like familiar territory.

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Maybe you were so busy doing that you forgot to look out for the Blairites infiltrating on your right.

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Originally posted by Sean D Someone asked who appointed Richard Turnbull. I don't know the ins and outs of the procedure, but presumably it was the Hall Council, whose names are I think on the Wycliffe website. They're hardly all bombastic conservatives e.g. James Jones (hairy left wing eco-bishop)...

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James Jones is bearded, but very much a 'smooth man' otherwise. Certainly not a lefty, despite his undoubtedly genuine concern for the environment. Custard described him as an 'open evangelical': that might describe his theology (though I would tend to describe him as a conservative who is not averse to tat), but not his pastoral approach.

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I assumed the rest, it is your last statement that intrigues me. Once you talk about tribes, aren't you talking about who's in and out? Isn't that the point? (I'm a Crystal Palace fan ... which means that I'm very lonely and no one else wants to know me [Waterworks] ... by joining a tribe, you are NOT joining all the others.) If that's the case then all that has changed is the criteria.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The thing about the evangelical tribe is that you're in if you say you're in.

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Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I saw this at university during the 80s and 90s...I failed on three points - inerrancy of Scripture, creationism and worship songs. I didn't believe in the first two and didn't like the last one.

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I failed on 2 out of 3 then.


Seriously - I see a polarisation of evangelicalism in the UK and don't like it. I'm not sure what the answer is. I can't make my mind up if 'Open Evangelicals' are helping or hindering the process.