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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I've just chased those references up from Scribehunter.

But this is all a tangent anyway...

I agree. The only point was that my credibility was being challenged, and I produced some public domain material relevant to each issue. If you don't think these are matters largely kept secret then perhaps you could try and see how many other references to Oak Hill's 'brutal' 'purge' of 1993 you can find (even in the 'official' history of the college).

Anyway Custard, I am interested that you don't seem to credit the possibility that this may be going on in Wycliffe Hall. I.e. that there may be a real and significant staff-level problem, focusing mostly on relationships with RT (but taking in the lack of action from the Council), that is being largely kept from the student body. Don't you think you may suffer from an over-confident epistemology on this issue?

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Custard
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If that's your point, I'm happy to agree with it. We as a student body didn't really know about the Wenham/Turnbull disagreement until the outcome was announced publically, for example - both sides behaved very well in that regard.

Since then, the staff have been much more open about what has been going on (e.g. in openly repenting of their failings in the past), and I'd be surprised if there's stuff going on that the students don't know about.

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Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
If that's your point, I'm happy to agree with it.

Of course it is my point! Can you not read man?

quote:
I'd be surprised if there's stuff going on that the students don't know about.
Well that is up to you.

quote:
We as a student body didn't really know about the Wenham/Turnbull disagreement until the outcome was announced publically ...
Yes, but as I see it, this disagreement, which led to the resignation and (imminent) departure of Wenham after twenty years of service to the Hall, has not yet been resolved. And its existence contradicts the notion that the whole dispute is some personality contest between Turnbull and Storkey.
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Cadfael
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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I've just chased those references up from Scribehunter.

But this is all a tangent anyway...

I agree. The only point was that my credibility was being challenged, and I produced some public domain material relevant to each issue. If you don't think these are matters largely kept secret then perhaps you could try and see how many other references to Oak Hill's 'brutal' 'purge' of 1993 you can find (even in the 'official' history of the college).

Anyway Custard, I am interested that you don't seem to credit the possibility that this may be going on in Wycliffe Hall. I.e. that there may be a real and significant staff-level problem, focusing mostly on relationships with RT (but taking in the lack of action from the Council), that is being largely kept from the student body. Don't you think you may suffer from an over-confident epistemology on this issue?

I hope you don't mind me joining in here - I just want to say, SH, that your experience entirely gels with mine.

I'm an academic too (not in theology though) and the students would be AMAZED at some of the spats, intrigues and long term hatreds that flourish both at my Uni and many others (the latter based upon the stories that I hear at conferences).

There is no way that we would willingly let the students know about it!

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
[QUOTE]Yes, but as I see it, this disagreement, which led to the resignation and (imminent) departure of Wenham after twenty years of service to the Hall, has not yet been resolved. And its existence contradicts the notion that the whole dispute is some personality contest between Turnbull and Storkey.

I knew the Aiken argument was at wrong but this makes his whole defence of Richard Turnbull quite suspicious.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Yerevan
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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
PS Given that the evangelical tradition hasn't been able to agree on baptism, communion, church government and salvation for starters, how can it definitively interpret scripture?

It can't definitively interpret scripture; the whole idea is to be constantly reforming. However, if you don't know your tradition you cannot reform it; you can only depart from it, or rediscover it. I'm not saying that the evangelical tradition offers a definitive interpretation of scripture; I'm saying that evangelicalism has interpreted scripture in a particular way and that to be wilfully ignorant of that way is tantamount to departing from evangelicalism and becoming, by default, something else.
Thanks. You did seem to be saying that evangelical tradition over-rides the individual's interpretation of scripture though. Would that be fair?
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Custard
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I read the situation with that dispute very much as settling down into the new status quo and seeing how the new management structure works.

With Elaine Storkey and Peter Southwell both coming up for retirement soon, as well as the new structures settling down, I expect there are some more structural changes still to come, but that the major ones are already done.

It's conceivable there is stuff going on in the background that I'm not aware of, but given the council's strong support for Richard, I don't see either what it could achieve or how it could try to achieve it.

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Spawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
I agree. The only point was that my credibility was being challenged, and I produced some public domain material relevant to each issue. If you don't think these are matters largely kept secret then perhaps you could try and see how many other references to Oak Hill's 'brutal' 'purge' of 1993 you can find (even in the 'official' history of the college).

Your credibility remains open to question only on the basis of your characterisation of the Oak Hill and Trinity situations as 'dirty little secrets'. That's nonsense those situations and others are common knowledge to those associated with those institutions (they're just not of interest to others). I can think of other problems at numerous theological colleges over the years. The fact is that these things erupt every now again in institutions of this kind. I know of situations where relationships have broken down on a grand scale, others where anyonymous emails and letters have been circulated. For example, I received one such unsigned letter from a disgruntled member of staff after a reorganisation at Cranmer when a new principal took over and the jobs of a couple of staff members disappeared. (It turned out that there was very little to the story beyond what happens under a new broom every now and then). I suppose what has been unusual at Wycliffe is the level of venom involved and the accusations of homophobia and mysognism. The situation is made more acute by the more general Anglican crisis and a great deal of acrimony between conservative and open evangelicals (nothing new in itself but particularly nasty at the moment). Elaine Storkey has a history of conflict with conservative evangelicals (it has to be said that she is generally more sinned against than sinning) and it doesn't surprise me that she is at the centre of this situation despite her peripheral role on the staff of Wycliffe. Why on earth it should concern her so much that Richard Turnbull signed the so-called 'covenant' last year is mystifying to me? Like so many other documents the Anglican Mainstream 'covenant' and the official one ultimately signify nothing and will probably be overtaken by events. It strikes me that she may have lost her sense of perspective as much as Richard Turnbull evidently has. In small institutions like Wycliffe these things happen. I just hope they can sort things out.
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Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Your credibility remains open to question only on the basis of your characterisation of the Oak Hill and Trinity situations as 'dirty little secrets'.

Which, of course, I never did. Don't play this bs with me.
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Spawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Your credibility remains open to question only on the basis of your characterisation of the Oak Hill and Trinity situations as 'dirty little secrets'.

Which, of course, I never did. Don't play this bs with me.
Apologies, you used the term 'dark secret'. I don't see much difference but sorry to misquote you. The point still stands.
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Cadfael
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I read the situation with that dispute very much as settling down into the new status quo and seeing how the new management structure works.

With Elaine Storkey and Peter Southwell both coming up for retirement soon, as well as the new structures settling down, I expect there are some more structural changes still to come, but that the major ones are already done.

It's conceivable there is stuff going on in the background that I'm not aware of, but given the council's strong support for Richard, I don't see either what it could achieve or how it could try to achieve it.

Ah - so you admit that it is possible that theremay be arguments and tensions, but it doesn't matter because the dissenters will lose. Now I have a better understanding of your position.
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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Apologies, you used the term 'dark secret'. I don't see much difference but sorry to misquote you. The point still stands.

Surely the word secret is inappropriate because it suggests no one knew about them whilst they were common knowledge.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Custard
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Large scale changes in management structures are rarely easy and there are often rumblings and tensions going on for a while afterwards while the new structures settle down.

I don't know if that is the case here - it may well be. But I'd be very surprised if there's anything more than that. There certainly seems to be no evidence for it, other than what Scribehunter has written.

And SH - while what you said about "dark secrets" may well have been factually correct, the tone implied by the way the words were used implied a more pejorative sense than the literal meaning which we are agreed on.

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Cadfael
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Large scale changes in management structures are rarely easy and there are often rumblings and tensions going on for a while afterwards while the new structures settle down.

I don't know if that is the case here - it may well be. But I'd be very surprised if there's anything more than that. There certainly seems to be no evidence for it, other than what Scribehunter has written.

And SH - while what you said about "dark secrets" may well have been factually correct, the tone implied by the way the words were used implied a more pejorative sense than the literal meaning which we are agreed on.

We're all aware that there have been staff changes, but I hadn't noticed that 'new management structures' have been introduced. Could you enlighten us as to what these are? This might add some helpful clarification...
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Amos

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My guess is that 'new management structures' really just means 'new management', or even 'new people at the top', and 'structures' merely better conforms the phrase to the language of plausible deniabilty.

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Spawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I don't know if that is the case here - it may well be. But I'd be very surprised if there's anything more than that. There certainly seems to be no evidence for it, other than what Scribehunter has written.

No, I think it's clear that there is something more going on than mere structural changes at Wycliffe. It seems to me that this is one of these occasions where warfare between open and conservative evangelicals has moved into the open. This has been going on for years. Some 'conservatives' think that 'open evangelicals' aren't really evangelical, and open evangelicals don't want such noisy conservatives to be seen as representative of them. This sort of tension in evangelicalism (especially of the Anglican variety) has been an underlying factor in a number of conflicts over the years - the Anvil/Churchman split springs to mind. It's especially acute at the moment because open evangelicals feel that the conservatives are taking over the main evangelical institutions (AEA, CEEC, certain theological colleges etc). This led to the formation of Fulcrum and latterly the battle at Wycliffe Hall.

A lot of people downplay these tensions among evangelicals (which is possibly why terms like 'dark secret' are used), but I think it's a mistake to do so. Fissiparousness will always be a hallmark of evangelicalism until evangelicals themselves face up to this dark side.

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Custard
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As I said above, I don't think the tensions are directly along the open / conservative axis. Maybe "doctrinal evangelical" and "cultural evangelical" would be better terms, with Wycliffe moving towards doctrinal evangelicalism, whether conservative, charismatic or open. The discussion above made it clear that ken, for example, is an open evangelical who is doctrinally evangelical.

Roughly, the changes in management structure are from a "collective"-type model, with the vocational aspects of the training overseen by someone outside the management structure to having three sections to college (preaching, ministry and academics), each with its own senior person overseeing it under the Principal. So Will Donaldson, for example (not a conservative evangelical), is in charge of the ministry section, and when other people are involved in delivery of ministry-related courses, he's in charge, even if they are, for example, in charge of the preaching.

Oh, and a new NT tutor has been appointed. Lets see how good Scribehunter's sources are.

[ 18. July 2007, 12:02: Message edited by: Custard. ]

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
As I said above, I don't think the tensions are directly along the open / conservative axis. Maybe "doctrinal evangelical" and "cultural evangelical" would be better terms, with Wycliffe moving towards doctrinal evangelicalism, whether conservative, charismatic or open. The discussion above made it clear that ken, for example, is an open evangelical who is doctrinally evangelical.

Hmmn. Not sure that this distinction is any more useful. I tend to see evangelicalism, theologically speaking, as a way of "doing things" rather than a corpus of received truth. That seems, to me, characteristic of open evos, maybe even their defining characteristic. I suspect it is not readily placeble on your doctinal/cultural axis.

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I don't know if that is the case here - it may well be. But I'd be very surprised if there's anything more than that. There certainly seems to be no evidence for it, other than what Scribehunter has written.

No, I think it's clear that there is something more going on than mere structural changes at Wycliffe. It seems to me that this is one of these occasions where warfare between open and conservative evangelicals has moved into the open. This has been going on for years. Some 'conservatives' think that 'open evangelicals' aren't really evangelical, and open evangelicals don't want such noisy conservatives to be seen as representative of them. This sort of tension in evangelicalism (especially of the Anglican variety) has been an underlying factor in a number of conflicts over the years - the Anvil/Churchman split springs to mind. It's especially acute at the moment because open evangelicals feel that the conservatives are taking over the main evangelical institutions (AEA, CEEC, certain theological colleges etc). This led to the formation of Fulcrum and latterly the battle at Wycliffe Hall.
I totally agree. And thanks for a great word! Fissipariousness. Wonderful.
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Custard
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It's worth explaining how I know the tensions are not simple open / conservative ones like they seem to have been in Word Alive.

Of Richard's four appointments in the last year, only one has been a conservative evangelical. All four have been doctrinally, even confessionally evangelical (as far as I can tell).

There are two bishops on the hall council. Neither is a conservative evangelical; both are open evangelicals, and both are standing by Richard.

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Spawn
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
It's worth explaining how I know the tensions are not simple open / conservative ones like they seem to have been in Word Alive.

Of Richard's four appointments in the last year, only one has been a conservative evangelical. All four have been doctrinally, even confessionally evangelical (as far as I can tell).

There are two bishops on the hall council. Neither is a conservative evangelical; both are open evangelicals, and both are standing by Richard.

Your account of events is undoubtedly true. But I remember a host of such conflicts where underlying tensions were also at play. People involved in the Anvil/Churchman split pointed to differences on management and editorial policy but we have no hesitation these days in regarding that conflict as representing a significant split between open and conservative evangelicals.

It is also clear that the terms 'open' and 'conservative' themselves have their problems which is why I often put them in speechmarks. In many circles John Stott is now regarded as a 'conservative evangelical' whereas he was at one time the leading 'open evangelical'. This is mainly because 'opens' and 'conservatives' are becoming bitterly divided along lines drawn up in the wider Anglican 'culture wars'.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Roughly, the changes in management structure are from a "collective"-type model, with the vocational aspects of the training overseen by someone outside the management structure to having three sections to college (preaching, ministry and academics), each with its own senior person overseeing it under the Principal. So Will Donaldson, for example (not a conservative evangelical), is in charge of the ministry section, and when other people are involved in delivery of ministry-related courses, he's in charge, even if they are, for example, in charge of the preaching.

Perhaps they should put Aidan Kavanagh on the reading list, and take note of his criticisms of the split between academe and pastoralia.

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Nightlamp
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If that is the vision for the future structure of the college then I think the college council are making a big mistake. It seems to be an over reaction to what was previously an academic college that that bolted on practical ministry. Integration would seem to be a better approach.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
Fissiparousness will always be a hallmark of evangelicalism until evangelicals themselves face up to this dark side.

I agree. Possibly by becoming more, rather than less, open? On issues like sola scriptura, PSA, etc ...(Hush my mouth ..)

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Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Oh, and a new NT tutor has been appointed. Lets see how good Scribehunter's sources are.

I've no idea. Do tell.
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Custard
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Fairly young, experience with Oxbridge system, knows a lot about second-temple Judaism and historical Jesus stuff, charismatic evangelical. Currently teaching ordinands at a (non conservative-evangelical) Anglican instutition.

As good and experienced as David Wenham is now? Very few people are - I can't think of any in the UK, certainly, and any who are won't be far off retirement... Does the new guy have the potential to become that good with experience? Quite possibly.

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Scribehunter
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Now you are teasing.
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Scribehunter
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How carefully chosen was the word "institution"? If it was, and it is who I think, then this could be a great appointment.
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BroJames
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This is a shameless bump 'cos I'm genuinely interested to know who the new appointment is - if anyone is willing to enlighten me.
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Custard
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I'd rather wait until it appears in papers or on the web somewhere.

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Nightlamp
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I have been looking around the Web and fond that 5 members of staff have left Wycliffe; Geoffrey Maughan (Director of Pastoral Studies), Philip Johnston (Director of Studies) Adrian Turnbull, (Tutor in Liturgy) Krish Kandiah (Tutor in Evangelism) and David Wenham (Vice-Principal and Tutor in New Testament). Is this correct?
Oh I can't find a whisper about who is hte new NT Lecturer.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Custard
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> Geoffrey Maughan (Director of Pastoral Studies)

yes. The bishops' report strongly advised a huge restructuring of his role. That's not knocking him personally at all - he's a lovely guy and I'm sure he'll do a great job back in parish ministry.

> Philip Johnston (Director of Studies)

Nope. He resigned his internal post of director of studies but is still very much on staff.

> Adrian Turnbull, (Tutor in Liturgy)

No such person, as can be told by a simple look at the website. That tells you how well-informed your sources are.

Adrian Chatfield (tutor in liturgy) has however left, to found the Charles Simeon centre for mission and spirituality in Cambridge. He was very clear he wasn't leaving because of the Richard Turnbull thing, but because it was his "dream job".

> Krish Kandiah (Tutor in Evangelism)

Was not a paid member of staff at Wycliffe. He was employed full-time by RZIM to run the Oxford Centre for Christian Apologetics (which is a collaboration between Wycliffe and RZIM and we share some facilities), and did a small amount of (AFAIK unpaid) tutoring at Wycliffe. But he is leaving.

> David Wenham (Vice-Principal and Tutor in New Testament). Is this correct?

Yes. He resigned his internal post, but intended to stay at Wycliffe AFAICT until he was tempted away by a very good offer from Trinity.

It's worth adding that the following people have thus far been appointed:
Simon Vibert (preaching and vice-principal)
Will Donaldson (ministerial training OWTTE)
Liz Hoare (prayer, spirituality, mission)
NT Tutor (I was surprised it wasn't in the church press at the weekend; maybe it'll be in this coming weekend)
Cathy Ross (missiology, jointly with CMS and Regents Park, to do a small amount of stuff in college)

So we've lost 3 full-time and one very part time unpaid staff, and gained 4 full-time and one very part time staff.

[ 23. July 2007, 18:25: Message edited by: Custard. ]

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Adrian Turnbull, (Tutor in Liturgy)

No such person, as can be told by a simple look at the website. That tells you how well-informed your sources are.

Adrian Chatfield (tutor in liturgy)

It was a random crawl around the Net (which ended up at Wiki). I should say Ooops because Adrian and I briefly attended the same church not that he would remember me because it was a long time ago.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Raineyseason
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# 12854

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In my opinion Storkey is not the sort of person who should be in charge of Wycliff.

Whenever she or Anne Atkins are on Radio Four, I find myself cringing because they claim to represent Christ..and then mis-represent Him by their words. It's awful and it lacks integrity.

Christ was not cruel.
Christ was not slanderous
Christ was not sheltered or accusatory.

Christ was not a "career Christian."

I don't know what has happened at Wycliffe, but if somebody has put a stop to "career Christianity" then that has got to be a good thing.

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"Has your soul lost shape?is it too torn to heal?let my whole world be draped over its foreignness of feeling" Roddy Frame lyrics "high class music"

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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I suspect you have totally missed the point of this thread.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Scribehunter
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# 12750

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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I'd rather wait until it appears in papers or on the web somewhere.

But if it has been announced in the Hall then it is public knowledge. Or did you hear the news in a secret briefing from Dr Turnbull?

[ 24. July 2007, 11:52: Message edited by: Scribehunter ]

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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"He that hath a secret to keep must keep it secret that he hath a secret". Surprised they don't teach that at Wycliffe ....

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:

yes. The bishops' report strongly advised a huge restructuring of his role.

You are talking about the confidential report then?

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Custard
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# 5402

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That's the one. Bits of it come up occasionally when asking questions about how and why the structures are changing...

I want to be clear that I attach little blame either to the staff who have left or to Richard and the council. Yes, both sides could probably have handled stuff better, but we're all fallen human beings and hindsight is a wonderful thing.

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badman
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# 9634

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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Did Elaine actually compare Richard to "one of the Nazi defendants at Nuremberg" in a public meeting? If she did, I wasn't there, but if she did equally it is pretty unacceptable.

Turns out she didn't.

From today's Guardian:

quote:
In a Comment article, This isn't the Anglican split, page 28, July 5, it was stated that Dr Elaine Storkey, in a meeting of staff and students, compared the principal of Wycliffe Hall, Dr Richard Turnbull, to "one of the Nazi defendants at Nuremberg". This was incorrect. She did not compare Dr Turnbull to the Nazi defendants or use the words quoted. We apologise for this error.

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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And I am pretty sure from the date that this was the Comment article by Jonathan Aitken, which was the subject of a fair bit of discussion a few pages back. (You can no longer access it on the Guardian website). I wonder if he will apologise as well ....

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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It does rather kill Aitken's key point about all being simply a personality clash between two people.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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And, I suppose, increase the puzzlement over her suspension. But no doubt the Hall Council will put her (and all onlookers) out of our misery ere long? Is due process looking a bit overdue?

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Scribehunter
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# 12750

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
And I am pretty sure from the date that this was the Comment article by Jonathan Aitken, which was the subject of a fair bit of discussion a few pages back. (You can no longer access it on the Guardian website). I wonder if he will apologise as well ....

There is a copy here: AM copy of Aitken's article
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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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It reads even nastier now. I wonder if Anglican Mainstream will also print a disclaimer/apology? Or withdraw it. Think I'll ask them.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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The Guardian retraction and apology are there.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Scribehunter
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# 12750

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What on earth does Aitken lecture on at Wycliffe Hall?
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Robert Armin

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Ethics?

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Raineyseason:
In my opinion Storkey is not the sort of person who should be in charge of Wycliff.

Whenever she or Anne Atkins are on Radio Four, I find myself cringing because they claim to represent Christ..and then mis-represent Him by their words. It's awful and it lacks integrity.

Christ was not cruel.
Christ was not slanderous
Christ was not sheltered or accusatory.

Christ was not a "career Christian."

I don't know what has happened at Wycliffe, but if somebody has put a stop to "career Christianity" then that has got to be a good thing.

It strikes me as a strange viewpoint which finds Atkins and Storkey in the same place.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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It is surprising that the new appointments for the autumn term haven't been announced.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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