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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
Thurible
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Amazon has one for £6.13. I bought mine in Oxfam for £2.99 (the university demands use of the NRSV and I wasn't going to spend anymore than I can on it).

Thurible

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Dinghy Sailor

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So Amazon does. Good for Amazon. That would be useful if mine wasn't also a 2.99 Oxfam copy. [Smile]

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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Having a conservative as the person in charge of preaching makes that even stronger.

I would disagree with saying that a particular theological stance (conservative) makes you a good preacher it makes you conservative. Gifting or skill is independent of theological views.
Custard didn't say the conservative would be a better preacher, but a better teacher of preachers.

Presumably if you think that one of the aims of preaching is to communicate truth, and that to tell the truth you first have to know the truth, and if you believed that orthodox theology is in fact true, QED.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Leprechaun

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This is beginning to make sense to me now.

In my travels round evo-world I am coming across more and more conviction charismatics who also want meaty expositions.

They don't want to give up the Matt Redman or the prophecy times or the carpet time or the OoW, but they also want serious Bible teaching the like of which (they say themselves) you are far more likely to get in a conservative church, and a commitment to evangelical distinctives like PSA. It's very much, IME, like the spirituality of the Puritans, but without the separatist mentality.

It seems that Wycliffe aims to cater for such people. Fair play I say, as it seems to be an ever growing group within the Anglicans I meet.

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Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I think what Richard is aiming for eventually is a college where preaching and handling the Bible correctly is seen as central to what we do ...

I would really like to know what it means to handle the Bible "correctly".
Hold by the spine, allowing the pages to fall open naturally. No folding down page corners, no highlighter pens.
If I hold mine by the spine then the pages don't open. Something must be wrong. Perhaps I shall have to go to Wycliffe Hall.
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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Custard didn't say the conservative would be a better preacher, but a better teacher of preachers.

as I said before gifting is independent of theological views. A liberal teacher can obviously be equally as good. A liberal person is by their very nature going to open to new ideas and approaches which a conservative person is by their very nature going to suspicious about.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Johnny S
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
as I said before gifting is independent of theological views. A liberal teacher can obviously be equally as good. A liberal person is by their very nature going to open to new ideas and approaches which a conservative person is by their very nature going to suspicious about.

I quite agree with you, but is it so outlandish to suggest that those groups who theologically put a greater importance on preaching are then going to invest more heavily into the training of preachers?
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Tubbs

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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
as I said before gifting is independent of theological views. A liberal teacher can obviously be equally as good. A liberal person is by their very nature going to open to new ideas and approaches which a conservative person is by their very nature going to suspicious about.

I quite agree with you, but is it so outlandish to suggest that those groups who theologically put a greater importance on preaching are then going to invest more heavily into the training of preachers?
No. But that has nothing to do with either liberalism or conservatism but do their theology around the Ministry of the Word. [Razz]

I'd imagine that peaching would be something that was covered quite throughly in the training colleges for Baptist ministry. [Biased]

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Having a conservative as the person in charge of preaching makes that even stronger.

I would disagree with saying that a particular theological stance (conservative) makes you a good preacher it makes you conservative. Gifting or skill is independent of theological views.
Context, my friend, context.

quote:
Conservative enthusiasm is hence because Richard is aiming to improve the Bible teaching, which they see as essential. By and large, they think that if a college is good on that, it's worth going to. Having a conservative as the person in charge of preaching makes that even stronger.
I meant to say that it is conservative perception about the quality of Bible teaching that is strengthened by having a conservative teaching it, not necessarily the quality itself.

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blog
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daisymay

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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
Another mismatch which fascinates me is that idea that Wycliffe could be like Oak Hill in its excellent training (acc. to Custard anyway); but somehow not be like Oak Hill in its theology.
The issue is that Oak Hill's training, with an emphasis on expository preaching, is only really possible on the basis of a certain type of theology in which the proclamation of the Word is absolutely central. (It is an interesting theology in which the Proclamation Trust and Bultmann are on the same side against Calvin, but let's not got there now.)

I definitely prefer expository sermons, more interesting and more giving to both my brain and emotions, but I don't think they can only be "conservative". IMO, it has to be something that the preacher can do effectively, whatever their own position on the theological belief ladder/path.

I get bored and starved with sermons that give me nothing to eat, nothing worth thinking about, nothing that takes me on spiritually.

I don't need them to be 45 minutes, (unless they are so good that I don't notice the time passing
[Biased] ) and I also like sermons that are non-expository, but deeply spiritual food. And they can be examples of non-preachers, with visualisation or contemplation, in all sorts of religions...

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London
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pete173
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I'm told that returning students have now been told officially that Elaine Storkey and the Goddards are history as far as teaching at Wycliffe is concerned. (Which we all knew was coming sooner or later). Anyone at Wycliffe confirm this?

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Pete

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Thurible
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This dreadfully unbiased [sic] article would suggest that your understanding is the correct one, Bishop.

Thurible

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innocent(ish)
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quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
I'm told that returning students have now been told officially that Elaine Storkey and the Goddards are history as far as teaching at Wycliffe is concerned. (Which we all knew was coming sooner or later). Anyone at Wycliffe confirm this?

I was told the very same thing a while back at a wedding by another former tutor (do they now outnumber new staff members?). I presume the whole Elaine Storkey disciplinary issue must have been resolved - Custard?

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"Christianity has become part of the furniture ... like a grand piano nobody plays any longer.I want the dust to be taken off and people to play music." Archbishop John Sentamu

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innocent(ish)
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Although having said that, I see the Goddards are still listed on the website as being on the teaching staff.

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"Christianity has become part of the furniture ... like a grand piano nobody plays any longer.I want the dust to be taken off and people to play music." Archbishop John Sentamu

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Barnabas62
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[Confused] How long does it take to "negotiate severance terms"? Elaine and the Goddards going is hardly unexpected, as pete173 says, but that looks messy. Hope it doesn't get worse.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Custard
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Here's a quote from Richard's statement:

quote:
Three part-time members of staff are also moving on from Wycliffe. Students will be aware that not all members of staff have been happy with the direction and leadership of the Hall. The Council has therefore concluded that it is in the best interests of the Hall to reach amicable severance arrangements if at all possible with Elaine Storkey, Andrew and Lis Goddard... We continue to pray God's blessing upon them and their ministry.
I hear that the council was unanimous in their decision. Richard says what he means.

My analysis is roughly as follows:

Elaine: I hardly knew her at all. I'm not entirely sure what she did here. No-one really expected her to start this term; I doubt she'll be missed. She may be a very nice person, who is an excellent lecturer and an incisive social commentator, but we really didn't see that.

Lis and Andrew are a much bigger loss. Lis is excellent pastorally, but was known to disagree with Richard in private and be very unhappy about the changes. Andrew is excellent academically and hadn't been vocal about opposition to the changes at all (AFAIK), but has made it clear he and Lis stay together. Academically, Andrew and David Wenham have been the significant losses in all this. Are the new staff good enough to make up? They have the potential, but time will tell. From what I've seen of them thus far, they all seem very "nice" (so badman would approve).

We're getting a chap in from Staggers to teach ethics; the others' duties have been reassigned. What I think is a bigger loss to college is the loss of representation of open evangelicals on the staff team. We've still got several ordained women and plenty of pro-OoW staff, but there aren't now any staff who are active in Fulcrum, as far as I'm aware, so I'd expect people in that part of the church to be quite concerned about it. For what it's worth, I think Richard's past actions have shown that he isn't against open evangelicals, and that his statement says the people leaving are because of views on direction, but I appreciate that this looks decidedly bad on that front.

If Wycliffe was an open evangelical college five years ago, it isn't now. It is still a college where there are plenty of open evangelicals and where they are welcome though. As long as they don't disagree too much with the direction college is going in, apparently.

I've spoken to Richard about it and he's got every confidence in his current staff and is looking forwards to this year. His comments quoted from the above-linked article sound exactly like him:

quote:
“We’ve just started the new year and we’re fully staffed with tutors and teaching staff all who want to be here, and we’ve more than the maximum number of students.

“We’re in great heart and all looking forward to the year ahead.

“We have already filled a quarter of our places for next year and the number of women students has increased this year, both in actual number and overall proportion.”

It doesn't take a genius to observe that of the teaching staff, only Philip Johnston, Peter Southwell, Peter Walker and Claire Page have been working here for longer than Richard's two and a bit years (and Peter Southwell is due to retire from Wycliffe at the end of the year). That is sad, and I'm sure if Richard had his time again he'd have done more to keep some of the ones who left, but at heart it's still the same college I applied to two years ago and I hope and pray the new people will be at least as good as the old ones were.

These next few days will probably be tough for college, but I think (and hope and pray) the changes are over now. What we need is a decent bit of stability and the chance to get on with training and being trained for Christian ministry.

That's probably about all I have to say about that. I doubt there will be much more news, unless James Jones wants to say something about it.

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Stamp thine image in its place.


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Nightlamp
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It seems the exaggerated claims for the number leaving Wycliffe have come true. It looks like a whole sale cull of staff.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
This dreadfully unbiased [sic] article would suggest that your understanding is the correct one, Bishop.


Slightly different presentation of its existence, Nightlamp ( [Biased] ) but the same article!

Thurible

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Nightlamp
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Oh for the days when I had the time to read all threads. Sorry I should have noticed. I was wondering how many members of the academic staff that were around when Turnbull turned up are now still in place. If this college had not been in Oxford it would now be on the verge of closing but it will be saved by people's desire to train in Oxford and by the conservative evangelicals.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Nightlamp
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I learn the same lesson twice read all the posts.....

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Oh for the days when I had the time to read all threads. Sorry I should have noticed.

Want to swop jobs? I wish I didn't! Only a week to go, though.

Thurible

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Barnabas62
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Custard

Couldn't agree more with your plea for a period of stability. But I've been in this situation before (re the departures) in a different employment context. That pregnant phrase "if at all possible" tells me a lot. The context looks increasingly to be one of dismissal, rather than departure, after dispute, by mutual consent. If so, the issue may not go away just because the Hall Council want it to. I hope I am wrong, but my own experiences teaches me that negotiating amicable severance terms in these circumstances is very much more difficult after the decision than before it.

I repeat, I hope things don't get worse.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Scribehunter
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What a shambles. Typical College Council - unanimous support for the Principal.
I wouldn't expect this to end all the troubles, since the basic cause has not apparently yet been identified. I expect God's Judgement will follow. I predict some lean years for Wycliffe. And that is a problem for evangelicalism in the Church of England.

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Scribehunter
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Custard quoted Turnbull as saying:
"We’re in great heart and all looking forward to the year ahead."

Perhaps the man has relentless optimism, perhaps he really did want to clear out the old staff and now feels that is over, but to me he sounds a little deluded. Can he not acknowledge the damage that has been done to departing staff members? The sadness that many former students feel? How many of the new staff will last more than a year or two under his gracious leadership?
Lord have mercy.

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
Custard quoted Turnbull as saying:
"We’re in great heart and all looking forward to the year ahead."

Perhaps the man has relentless optimism, perhaps he really did want to clear out the old staff and now feels that is over, but to me he sounds a little deluded. Can he not acknowledge the damage that has been done to departing staff members? The sadness that many former students feel? How many of the new staff will last more than a year or two under his gracious leadership?
Lord have mercy.

On the other hand, as a beginning of term opener, what else could he say? [Confused] In those circumstances, although you want to acknowledge the difficulties, you don't want to dwell on them and you want to encourage people to look forward, not back, and get on with things. (And you don't want to frighten the hell out of the new students either).

The full text of the statement might provide more insight but I couldn't see a link.

Tubbs

PS [Tangent] A friend and I were chatting about people we used to know at [eta: our old] church. This thread has provided the answer about Andy Angel (if it's the same guy) and I just found out one of the others is getting married this Saturday. [Paranoid] [/Tangent]

[ 21. September 2007, 11:39: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
Custard quoted Turnbull as saying:
"We’re in great heart and all looking forward to the year ahead."

Perhaps the man has relentless optimism, perhaps he really did want to clear out the old staff and now feels that is over, but to me he sounds a little deluded. Can he not acknowledge the damage that has been done to departing staff members? The sadness that many former students feel? How many of the new staff will last more than a year or two under his gracious leadership?
Lord have mercy.

On the other hand, as a beginning of term opener, what else could he say?
"sorry"
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badman
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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
On the other hand, as a beginning of term opener, what else could he say?

quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
"sorry"

"I am in my third year here. I have lost the confidence of staff. I have lost the confidence of the public. I have lost the right to educate school leavers. I offer my resignation to the Council."
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J Whitgift

Pro ecclesia dei!
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
If Wycliffe was an open evangelical college five years ago, it isn't now. It is still a college where there are plenty of open evangelicals and where they are welcome though. As long as they don't disagree too much with the direction college is going in, apparently*.

[* Emphasis added - JW]

That sentence worries me a little. Academia requires a certain level of intellectual honesty and debate. Whilst Wycliffe Hall may have a particular ethos which would exclude some by default (and others, like myself, would exclude themselves). I am concerned, from the inference of what you've said Custard that this may not be the case in this instance. However, as I neither attend Wycliffe, or agree with Turnbull on his understanding of Anglican theology or heritage, I am speaking from a biased perspective.

On a wider perspective. Unfortunately parts of the Anglican Church have become battle grounds over issues of orthodoxy (I attend one myself). I feel sad to see the end of the age of generous orthodoxy which has thrived in the Church and the rise of parties. That Wycliffe is shifting its position, theologically, from an open to a more conservatice evangelicalism is not surprising, given the change to its senior leadership. However, my reading is that welcome of open evangelicals at Wycliffe may itself change in the future and that is deeply sad. [Frown]

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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
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quote:
Originally posted by badman:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
On the other hand, as a beginning of term opener, what else could he say?

quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
"sorry"

"I am in my third year here. I have lost the confidence of staff. I have lost the confidence of the public. I have lost the right to educate school leavers. I offer my resignation to the Council."

I can think of people who'd have been better placed to make that kind of speech. But enough about my feelings about Mr Blair. [Big Grin] [Biased]

And if Custard's posts are anything to go by, that isn't entirely true. He's lost the confidence of some people but not everyone. And new staff and students are still willing to come there. (Places that have really bad reputations have difficulty in recruiting as many people won't come for interview, let alone accept a job).

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
And if Custard's posts are anything to go by, that isn't entirely true. He's lost the confidence of some people but not everyone. And new staff and students are still willing to come there. (Places that have really bad reputations have difficulty in recruiting as many people won't come for interview, let alone accept a job).

Yes.

What's particularly interesting is how few students have lost confidence in Wycliffe. There are about 140 students here (70 something ordinands), and I reckon the total number who've lost confidence in Richard is in single figures.

Richard's also gained the confidence of large sections of the church which Wycliffe didn't have under McGrath. At the new student introductions, one fresher (who has been seen on the Ship from time to time) joked that one of the main reasons they had come was because of an excellent review they'd read in the Guardian! Actually, Richard Turnbull's March 2006 interview with Evangelicals Now was very influential in getting the support of conservatives in particular.

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Stamp thine image in its place.


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J Whitgift

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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Richard's also gained the confidence of large sections of the church which Wycliffe didn't have under McGrath.

I'm interested to know what you mean by 'large sections of the church' Custard? The Anglican Church is notoriously broad. Do you mean wide sections of the evangelical movement within the Church, or the Church of England in it's wider context?

That's not meant to sound like an attempt to start a fight, but a request for clarification.

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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.

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Pokrov
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Richard's also gained the confidence of large sections of the church which Wycliffe didn't have under McGrath

On the spectrum between Rome and Geneva it's clear that the pendulum has swung more towards Calvin. I know that this is the battle ground that the CofE has fought on since the start, but it does break my heart to see the Goddards et al depart, I really think they represented the true 'middle ground' of historic Anglicanism.

Cross posted with J Whitgift

[ 21. September 2007, 13:59: Message edited by: Richard Collins ]

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Cedd
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# 8436

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Very short statement from the Fulcrum website on the departures:

Linkage

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Cedd

Churchmanship: This week I am mostly an evangelical, catholic, orthodox with both liberal and illiberal tendancies. Terms and conditions apply.

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J Whitgift

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quote:
Originally posted by Cedd:
Very short statement from the Fulcrum website on the departures:

Linkage

This has probably been said before, but looking at the Fulcrum website I note that both Elaine Storkey and the Goddards' are on Fulcrum's leadership team. Whilst the first cukoo maketh spring not, its interesting that the three departing Wycliffe all come from the same stable. [Biased]

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Pokrov
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# 11515

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J Whitgift,

Yes Fulcrum is very much trying to be a living dialectic between 'Reformed' and 'Catholic' - which is, argubly, the very essence of the Anglican 'via media'.

Richard Turnbull may be many good things, but a 'middle way Anglican' he certainly is NOT.

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J Whitgift

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# 1981

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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
J Whitgift,

[...]

Richard Turnbull may be many good things, but a 'middle way Anglican' he certainly is NOT.

Cheers for the clarification RC. Having read his 'Anglican and Evangelical' that was the sense I got as well. (I also found very little in there I could agree with, or indeed what I'd understand as being orthodox Anglican. [Disappointed] )

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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.

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badman
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# 9634

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quote:
Originally posted by Cedd:
Very short statement from the Fulcrum website on the departures:

Linkage

Interesting that the Fulcrum press release makes it quite clear that Dr Storkey and both the Goddards "have now been required to leave Wycliffe Hall" . In other words, they were pushed.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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The statement on the Fulcrum website and its use of the phrase "required to leave" makes it almost certain this is dismissal for all three. That's horrid.

I hope the Hall Council, Elaine and the Goddards have all had access to good professional advice re what constitute good grounds for dismissal. Last time I looked, "the best interests of the Hall" would not in themselves constitute a good enough reason for severing a contract of employment in the UK. I suppose they know what they're doing.

Trouble is, I've seen far too many occasions when well-intentioned people, sure they are doing the right thing, have foundered on the rocks of current legislation and precedent covering security of employment. The days of loyalty oaths are long gone. As an ex-negotiator, I really wouldn't fancy negotiating this one.

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Custard
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# 5402

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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
J Whitgift,

Yes Fulcrum is very much trying to be a living dialectic between 'Reformed' and 'Catholic' - which is, argubly, the very essence of the Anglican 'via media'.

Richard Turnbull may be many good things, but a 'middle way Anglican' he certainly is NOT.

Except that, as Richard would no doubt tell you if you asked him, or Diarmaid MacCulloch, for that matter, the via media of Anglicanism was originally between Wittenberg and Zurich, and then later seen as being between Geneva and Rome, taking pretty much all the theology from the former and chunks of ecclesiology and ceremony from the latter.

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Custard
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# 5402

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Oh, and having actually read some of the recent posts, I now know why people often avoid my arguments.

If it looks as if you're replying to something, it is at least polite to read what people have written before.

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Pokrov
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# 11515

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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Except that, as Richard would no doubt tell you if you asked him, or Diarmaid MacCulloch, for that matter, the via media of Anglicanism was originally between Wittenberg and Zurich, and then later seen as being between Geneva and Rome, taking pretty much all the theology from the former and chunks of ecclesiology and ceremony from the latter.

I'm not disagreeing that the 'early years' of post-Reformation Anglicanism were turbulent - however ye ole 'Reformed AND Catholic' model is certainly how the church settled out. There were MANY forces tugging it this way and that, and it's a miracle it managed to end up with this slight irenic balance (although one could say the 'peace' has always been somewhat strained...).

With Simeon on one side, and the Oxford movement on the other this old 'ping pong' is fairly common CofE (but not necessarily 'anglican' as other provinces may not have this dialectic) territory.

That's why I'm bailing out....

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Scribehunter
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# 12750

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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Oh, and having actually read some of the recent posts, I now know why people often avoid my arguments.

If it looks as if you're replying to something, it is at least polite to read what people have written before.

Custard,
with respect,
your position on this subject has been pretty one-sided in support of your neighbour. You have repeatedly minimised the significance of the staff departures. You have had access to only one side of an ongoing dispute. Now that may be the side of the winner, but that does mean that I factor out a fair bit of what you say as pro-Turnbull spin. Warmly welcomed by the spinnable student body no doubt.

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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Well, I think Custard has done a good job in reporting facts, his own opinion and his reasons. He has been open about opinions and loyalties. And I think he has been scrupulous over what he has revealed.

As I've said before, he and I do not always agree, but I have always found him to be truthful and scrupulous. My sympathies are with him and other students. None of this is of their creating. The fact that a number of us are now bothered about the way this has come out (and the implications of that) doesn't change my personal regret and best wishes for them all.

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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I understood Turnbull was brought into Wycliffe to in part to improve the management of the college and well by any measure of the meaning improve he has failed. With a new staff he can in effect start afresh and no doubt he has learnt from his mistakes and he has vision which gives hope and it would seem to have three strands, train people to be preachers, make Wycliffe a conservative evangelical college that welcomes others and a focus on training people to lead in parishes.
The latter point is ironic because a good leader keeps as many people on board as possible and shows some humility.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38

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Nightlamp - I wouldn't disagree with any of that, but I think you are overlooking one rather important fact.

Sometimes organizations get stuck in a rut. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a good motto for when things work well, but nothing stays the same. Ruts are very difficult to get out of. I'm sure if you think about it you'll agree with that. There's a whole raft of human experience associated with the changing of cultures inside institutions. It needs a clear articulation of the vision, and as broad an attempt as possible to consult and reassure. But not at the expense of diverting the vision.

But when that is done, there are usually those who disagree. The decent and honest thing to do at that point is to part company. It saves much acrimony later.

I only mention this because as a manager I have been in the position of having to effect a whole culture change. It's pretty traumatic for all concerned, but that has to be set against the risk of spluttering on, finally to peter out in insignificance.

FWIW, as an AC I have been watching rather than contributing so far. My personal sympathies would most likely be with Elaine Storkey and the Goddards. And I have no idea whether it was perceived that Wycliffe Hall may be facing long-term strategic threats. That's not my point. What I am saying is that if Turnbull is trying to effect a change in the culture there, then such things are highly likely. Though if they continue then that becomes another matter entirely. The theory would also suggest that you should realistically expect it to take around 5 years for a culture change to be fully bedded in.

Ian

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:

Sometimes organizations get stuck in a rut. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a good motto for when things work well, but nothing stays the same. Ruts are very difficult to get out of. I'm sure if you think about it you'll agree with that.

Oh I agree with that. a good change manager keeps most people on board a really good one keeps even the real conservative people on board. An extremely good change manager adjusts the change if it seems that everyone is leaving since the idea of change may not be wrong but this change may be the wrong one.
As an outsider to Wycliffe two principle things come to mind either Turnbull is a crap manager or the part of ht echange is enacting is simply wrong.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38

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Well - I didn't want to comment on whether I thought the change right or wrong. Just that if the powers that be thought that things needed a different direction then that might be a cause of the symptoms.

To be honest, and with the best will in the world, you can't always persuade everyone. You should aim to, but it doesn't always work. And it's definitely no criticism of those who find themselves on the departing end of things.

I guess what I am saying is that several high profile departures does not infallibly signal crap management. It may do, but not necessarily, for the reasons given. What will give things away rather more is how it settles down.

Ian

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Thurible
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# 3206

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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
You have had access to only one side of an ongoing dispute.

How do you know that?

Also, presumably we'd all need to be in touch with Turnbull, Storkey, the Goddards, etc., as well as the whole of the student body, the college council, the University hierarchs, the ex-students, the prospective students and all the rest in order to have a picture that's almost vaguely balanced.

Thurible

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:

I guess what I am saying is that several high profile departures does not infallibly signal crap management.

It isn't 'several' it is now about 80% change over of academic staff be it part or full time. A college like wycliffe may expect to have one or two people move (at the most) and maybe three or four during a time of transition. If this is reflected in the support staff then it is extremely bad.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Nightlamp
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# 266

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I have just done my Math and worked out that it is nearer 60% of the academic staff.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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