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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
Scribehunter
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Also can I apologise for using the word "bullshit" earlier.
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Barnabas62
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Not dogpile, Lep. A good deal of concerned comment over what is now looking increasingly like a dog's breakfast. The writers of the letter to CEN need to have considered the implications of libel, as do the CEN and the Church Times. The writers have been much nearer to the action and the people than we have been.

I've been a consistent supporter of due process over disciplinary issues on this thread and up to quite recently was confident the Hall Council would supply it. There are grounds for doubt now. I've also stuck up for Custard on more than one occasion - and still do.

pete173 is big enough to stick up for himself if he wants to. I simply point out the following

a) His summary of points coheres accurately with the letter to the CEN, which at the time of his posting was not easily available online.

b) He follows it with this comment.

quote:
You can be as nice as you like to the students, but the acid test is how you treat the people who work for you. Christianity doesn't just begin and end with theological positions and missiological emphases. It has to permeate through the life and behaviour of the people who have power and how they use that power. Same goes for bishops and vicars, so I'm preaching to myself in the here and now, as well as to you, Custard, in your future ministry.



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Yerevan
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quote:
At least the law courts are a properly regulated environment with an accepted procedure for both sides of the story. Much better than "trial by internet" with the unedifying sight of a bishop joining in the dogpile.
Oxford has always come under media scrutiny and the position of evangelicals within Anglicanism has been the big religious news story (leaving aside Islam) for yonks. Its hardly surprising that massive in-fighting in an evangelical institution affilitated to the university has made it into the public domain. It was always going to be a dog pile. The alternative to discussing the whole thing is sweeping it under the carpet, especially given that people on both sides have spoken out publicly.

Its occurred me that RT's actions so far are still consistent with a desire to move Wycliffe rightwards. If I wanted to shift a broadly evangelical college decisively to the right I would wait till the current furore died down and then move very slowly, making a few 'open' appointments along the way. I would also expect the shift to take at least a decade and possibly continue under a like-minded successor. This is all consistent with what RT has done so far. Given that Wycliffe is now in the public eye he would have been an idiot to appoint a bunch of ideological think-alikes. RT might be a lovely inclusive kinda guy who really values the full breadth of evangelicalism in spite of thinking that he's Right and they're Wrong, but the scenario I've outlined above fits well with the events to date and his Reform talk.

[ 29. September 2007, 10:03: Message edited by: Yerevan ]

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
In fact he failed to communicate that valuing so badly that David resigned. Which really just confirms the idea that people management is not RT's strongpoint.

Which is ironic considering he was appointed because he was meant to be a good manager.

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BroJames
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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:


pete173 has posted elsewhere - on another thread IIRC - about the hard work which was necessary to get good procedures in place <snip>

To be honest, I'm really not that sure on Pete's "We've got better procedures than Wycliffe ner ner ner ner ner" posturing when a fellow bishop is the chair of the hall council, is at all appropriate. Listing all the things that Wycliffe could get into legal trouble for on a discussion board doesn't really seem to display that much solidarity to me.

At least the law courts are a properly regulated environment with an accepted procedure for both sides of the story. Much better than "trial by internet" with the unedifying sight of a bishop joining in the dogpile.

TBH Leprechaun, I didn't read in Pete's postings the tone that you seem to be suggesting that they had, and I think the use of "posturing" is particularly unfair. Solidarity is a good thing, but if you expect people to exercise it then you must act with openness and responsibility. The stonewall solidarity of 'we support the Principal' response from the Council might be all right if there was also adequate action to address the situation. From the most recent letter it appears that the response was far from adequate.

I don't know how this feels to others, but as someone who happily identifies as evangelical I am feeling the backwash with my Anglican colleagues about what is going on in an avowedly evangelical theological college. To some extent I feel the same as an Anglican within the wider christian community. Part of me feels really sad at the whole turmoil at Wycliffe - especially where it involves people I know and respect. Part of me feels angry that the way the whole thing seems to have been handled.

quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
<snip>Maybe I'm being unduly cynical, but Turnbull's famous speech on the subject just looked like an attempt to suck cash out of Reform.

If he didn't really mean what he said then he's caught in a cleft stick - he either has to stick to the line now or admit that he was just playing to the Reform gallery.

ISTM that RT's style is blunt and unapologetic and 'in the face of conflict speak louder' and I am sure that style can come across as bullying - emphasised by the fact that he is a fairly large person. In some contexts that kind of style may work quite well, but perhaps not as a leader of change in an academic institution.

Early in his ministry, while still a curate, he came to the attention of the news media for his principled refusal to baptize the child of (IIRC) an unmarried couple. I'm sure this would have been difficult for them to accept at the best of times but it seemed to me at the time that his personal style had exacerbated the situation. ISTM now that in that respect he hasn't changed much.

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Arrietty

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This really highlights for me the fact that the way ordination training is currently delivered through independent colleges and foundations is untenable. Presumably there is meant to be a system of checks and balances in representation on councils, boards of governors etc but if this is done through Bishops, since Bishops are not in practice accountable to anyone for what they do and most boards of governors etc support their headteacher/principal then in practice there's nothing to make a college accountable to the people who are paying for them.

It also strikes me that the power college principles have to say 'not suitable' at the end of training is pretty enormous. Up to that point the evidence for your vocation has been considered by a wide range of people and your suitability to be sent for training affirmed at national level, but at the end of training it is quite possible for all that to be countered by the college saying they don't think you're suitable on the basis of what they've see of you - which will of course have been affected by the sort of experience that has been provided.

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BroJames
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
This really highlights for me the fact that the way ordination training is currently delivered through independent colleges and foundations is untenable. Presumably there is meant to be a system of checks and balances in representation on councils, boards of governors etc...<snip>

There is also an independent inspection regime, though I'm not sure how strong its teeth are.

quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
It also strikes me that the power college principles have to say 'not suitable' at the end of training is pretty enormous. Up to that point the evidence for your vocation has been considered by a wide range of people and your suitability to be sent for training affirmed at national level, but at the end of training it is quite possible for all that to be countered by the college saying they don't think you're suitable on the basis of what they've see of you - which will of course have been affected by the sort of experience that has been provided.

It is surprisingly rare IME for Principals to take this line - and in the end they don't decide they make a recommendation to the sponsoring bishop. It would be extremely rare, I think, for problems not to have been drawn to the attention of the sponsoring diocese before that point. OTOH from the point of view of an ordinand in training the Prinicpal's power seems huge, so I would not be at all surprised if, having been encouraged to 'be wise', any students who might be unhappy with what is going on at Wycliffe simply kept their heads below the parapet - especially because any student who made any negative comment would immediately find themselves very much in the media spotlight.

If all really is hunky-dory at Wycliffe then this latter point plays against the college since everyone would expect that current students have too much at stake to be critical of the institution in which they are currently training.

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Nightlamp
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I think this quote from the letter says how bad things are.
quote:
Three were staff who had been appointed by the current Principal and had been in post only two years. They could hardly be described as dead wood
I wonder how long the new staff will last?

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
There is also an independent inspection regime, though I'm not sure how strong its teeth are.

Its' teeth seem to be strong enough to have brought about (by their last report) the wholesale changes which led in turn to the current and past difficulties.

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
ISTM that RT's style is blunt and unapologetic and 'in the face of conflict speak louder' and I am sure that style can come across as bullying - emphasised by the fact that he is a fairly large person. In some contexts that kind of style may work quite well, but perhaps not as a leader of change in an academic institution.

A friend not connected with Wycliffe, who has heard Richard speak a few times said this. "The amazing thing about Richard is that he says what he thinks. All the time."

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BroJames
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Since AFAIK the reports are not made public that is rather hard to gauge. If the diagnosis was infected toenail, amputating the limb may seem drastic. Even if drastic change was needed there are good ways and bad ways of managing change.
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Arrietty

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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
A friend not connected with Wycliffe, who has heard Richard speak a few times said this. "The amazing thing about Richard is that he says what he thinks. All the time."

Isn't that pretty much impossible to tell - unless your friend is telepathic of course?

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i-church

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Arrietty

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quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
It is surprisingly rare IME for Principals to take this line - and in the end they don't decide they make a recommendation to the sponsoring bishop.

I don't think it's surprisingly rare for it to be hinted at as a way of keeping people in line.

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Amos

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My experience is similar to Arrietty's. Though at a different factory.

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
It also strikes me that the power college principles have to say 'not suitable' at the end of training is pretty enormous.

It is surprisingly rare IME for Principals to take this line
And on the few occasions when students aren't recommended (which hasn't happened here for quite some time), it's not entirely unknown for bishops to get to know the candidates and decide that the principal isn't up to much.

It works on a less formal level too.

I know of a case in the last few years where one student not getting recommended for ordination at a college well-known to several on this thread led to students of a similar background tradition avoiding that college for several years.

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BroJames
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Yes, it's quite likely the student will want to offer their particular tradition (or lack of approved tradition) as the reason for the college's advice to the bishop - even where others of the same tradition have not faced the same problems. It is easy enough to hint that others may have been more willing to compromise. Colleges don't lightly go down the road of not recommending someone.
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Charles Read
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This non-recommendation thing is a bit more slippery than you'd think.

If a student gives evidence of being in need of considerable help etc. before they can be recommended for ordination, the institution may ask the sponsoring bishop to withdraw that student from training for a year or so (maybe less). This is not technically non-recommendation and the candidate may or may not re-enter training in that or another institution later on. A bishop may also decline to accede to the institution's request.

In such cases and in cases of 'true' non-recommendation, the candidate should have been given plenty of warning that the staff feel there's an issue to be addressed that might necessitate non-recommendation and be given help in addressing it. Note it is a staff decision, not that of the principal alone. All this is clearly set out in the House of Bishops Reporting report which [puts on Vice Principal hat] all staff should read carefully (and abide by!)

Do staff use non-recommendation as a threat to keep awkward ordinands in line? I hope not, but I perceive that students often get unnecessarily wound up by the reporting process. Mea culpa if I have ever been party to such things - but my sig quote from the blessed George Bebawi (my college tutor in my first year abnd therefore one who once wrote a report on me!) makes a significant point.

And the bishop decides - the institution only recommends.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
A friend not connected with Wycliffe, who has heard Richard speak a few times said this. "The amazing thing about Richard is that he says what he thinks. All the time."

This way lies madness. Has the man no self-control?

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
This non-recommendation thing is a bit more slippery than you'd think.

Quite. If however the chap involved is friends with a reasonable number of well-connected people in bits of the Christian world, who don't observe those problems in him, hear some of the details and interpret it as the fault of the college, then it can have quite an impact.

It's important to manage things like that very carefully. As with the situation with transitions of management styles in theological colleges.

[ 29. September 2007, 20:46: Message edited by: Custard. ]

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
Do staff use non-recommendation as a threat to keep awkward ordinands in line?

'Fraid so - there was a TV documentary Queens, Birmingham, a few years ago where there was a heavily controlling influence.
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Arrietty

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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
Do staff use non-recommendation as a threat to keep awkward ordinands in line?

Yes, they do.

And I don't think it is getting 'unnecessarily wound up' to become anxious when you are the subject of an unclear process consisting of discussions to which you have no input and which may judge you unfit.

And let's not forget that a Bishop would have to know an ordinand to overrule such a conclusion. Since not all ordinands are able to serve title in their sending Diocese, someone in that position who was not recommended to be deaconed would be facing an uphill struggle to find a title parish.

If it's really the Bishop's decision as people are saying here, with an implication that a non-recommendation isn't serious as it would be ignored by a Bishop who knew the candidate, then why have a recommendation at all? Why not just give a factual report about what's been studied/achieved/learnt?

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badman
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From Custard's blog :-

quote:
An idea that some people in Oxford have been batting around recently is the idea of stopping teaching theology at the university...

...I think there's a very good argument for dropping theology. The way that subjects are studied now is via investigation, via the power of the mind. On a fundamental level, theology should not be like that because we cannot put ourselves over God to investigate him, though that doesn't stop a lot of people trying.

On yet another level, I think it would be enormously beneficial. If funding for academics studying theology was cut, theology would be done mainly by the Church, and I think that's right...

... I don't suppose I'd cry much if people who have devoted their lives to trying to argue that Jesus never existed suddenly lost their funding. But Jesus loves them anyway, so I suppose I should.

Is this what Wycliffe has taught you? If so, is it any wonder that Wycliffe Hall is "on probation" with the University at the moment?

In fact, what are you doing at a university at all?

It suggests a rather amazing lack of confidence in God that you don't think he should be put under academic scrutiny, doesn't it?

Or have I misunderstood? (Happens all the time!) [Smile]

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by badman:
Is this what Wycliffe has taught you?

Nope.

quote:
It suggests a rather amazing lack of confidence in God that you don't think he should be put under academic scrutiny, doesn't it?
Yawn. It's the whole issue of authority.

We have, in some sense, authority over the universe. We can look at it, put bits of it in a box and poke them or cut them open to see how they work.

In no sense do we have authority over God. He is to be understood (inasmuch as that is possible) on his own terms, not on ours. It's the whole credo ut intellegam and fides querens intellectum and precedit fides, sequitur intellectus which is so fundamental, but is so often totally ignored in academic theology departments, especially when it comes to Biblical studies.

You try expressing Augustine's or Aquinas's idea that you need to believe (and hence to obey and to love) as a precondition of being able to understand in a secular academic theology faculty, and see how far it gets you.

ETA - and I did get the fancy Latin quotes from studying here, but at the secular academic theology faculty, by reading around the reading list a bit.

[ 30. September 2007, 07:04: Message edited by: Custard. ]

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Barnabas62
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While the stuff about folks' character is all very interesting, it might be worth remembering that at the heart of this there are some central issues of conduct.

1. The specific conduct, over time, of Elaine Storkey and the Goddards in honouring their contracts of employment.

2. The specific conduct of Elaine Storkey which led to a disciplinary report by Richard Turnbull.

3. The specific conduct of Richard Turnbull which led to a grievance complaint by Elaine Storkey.

4. The specific conduct of Richard Turnbull which provoked complaints by staff members to the Hall Council.

5. The specific conduct of the Hall Council in investigating and assessing these various matters, and reaching the judgments they did.

ISTM that, in the end, it is these issues of conduct which should determine, ultimately, whether people have behaved fairly. Character has got nothing to do with that. Nor has theology, missiology, or the need for change. Clearly, within Wycliffe, the Hall Council has the the ultimate responsibility for assessing points 1-4 above. But who has ultimate responsibility for assessing point 5.?

Man and women of proven good character make mistakes. The effects of particular conduct here have been bad for individuals who have left, bad for the reputation of the college, bad for the students, bad for the current staff and bad for the Hall Council.

These things are in the public domain now. Are they resolved? From the POV of the Hall Council, I should think the answer is "yes". From the POV of the ex employees the answer definitely seems to be "no". From the point of view of observers, if justice has been done it has manifestly not been seen to have been done. And the conduct of the Hall Council (point 5) is now being questioned in public.

It seems best for everyone now if these matters could be resolved finally, on the basis of conduct. So far as I can see, the only options are the law, or recourse to agreed arbitration by an independent third party. The second option at least contains the possibility of avoiding further cost. And I don't just mean money.

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Yerevan
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quote:
Originally posted by badman:
From Custard's blog :-

quote:
An idea that some people in Oxford have been batting around recently is the idea of stopping teaching theology at the university...

...I think there's a very good argument for dropping theology. The way that subjects are studied now is via investigation, via the power of the mind. On a fundamental level, theology should not be like that because we cannot put ourselves over God to investigate him, though that doesn't stop a lot of people trying.

On yet another level, I think it would be enormously beneficial. If funding for academics studying theology was cut, theology would be done mainly by the Church, and I think that's right...

... I don't suppose I'd cry much if people who have devoted their lives to trying to argue that Jesus never existed suddenly lost their funding. But Jesus loves them anyway, so I suppose I should.

Is this what Wycliffe has taught you? If so, is it any wonder that Wycliffe Hall is "on probation" with the University at the moment?

In fact, what are you doing at a university at all?

It suggests a rather amazing lack of confidence in God that you don't think he should be put under academic scrutiny, doesn't it?

Or have I misunderstood? (Happens all the time!) [Smile]

This seems to boil down to the idea that the study of Christianity should be the preserve of Christians. Insert the words "Islam" and "Muslims" or "atheism" and "atheists" here and you might see the problem more clearly. Atheists/agnostics/Jews/Muslims whatevers are going to continue using the tools of intellectual enquiry to investigate on your faith whether its taught academically or not, just as I'm going to continue using the tools of intellectual enquiry to understand theirs. Its great. Get used to it.

Whats your opinion on church history btw, given that the 'secularising' of that subject was probably the best thing that ever happened to it?

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Anselmina
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
A friend not connected with Wycliffe, who has heard Richard speak a few times said this. "The amazing thing about Richard is that he says what he thinks. All the time."

This way lies madness. Has the man no self-control?
Just wanting to comment more abstractly on the idea of 'saying what one thinks' as being either a good or a bad thing.

If by 'saying what one thinks' is meant as always giving a truthful response in accord with one's feelings, there is something to admire in this. However, often what one thinks is wrong, and sometimes the response which is truthful to what we feel about a thing is not the most accurate reflection of a complex situation, or the most fruitful way of progressing it.

While any situation may call for people to say what they think, sometimes it is only in order to further clarification of thought so that a deeper understanding of all sides of a conflict can be reached. And this often calls for a knowledge-informed modification of our own ideas, or an alteration in our perception of the position of the others.

Saying what one thinks is a good thing, but only if it's part of a process in achieving something, not the whole of it.

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Custard
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# 5402

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quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
This seems to boil down to the idea that the study of Christianity should be the preserve of Christians. Insert the words "Islam" and "Muslims" or "atheism" and "atheists" here and you might see the problem more clearly. Atheists/agnostics/Jews/Muslims whatevers are going to continue using the tools of intellectual enquiry to investigate on your faith whether its taught academically or not, just as I'm going to continue using the tools of intellectual enquiry to understand theirs. Its great. Get used to it.

Whats your opinion on church history btw, given that the 'secularising' of that subject was probably the best thing that ever happened to it?

It's a really interesting question and topic, but it's a complete tangent to this discussion and I don't have time to go there at the moment (maybe in a couple of days). How about starting a new thread?

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
A friend not connected with Wycliffe, who has heard Richard speak a few times said this. "The amazing thing about Richard is that he says what he thinks. All the time."

This way lies madness. Has the man no self-control?
<snip>

Saying what one thinks is a good thing, but only if it's part of a process in achieving something, not the whole of it.

I concur. I work in a school - if I said what I thought, I'd last about five minutes. Four minutes of which would be getting my coat. My wife's a lawyer - she'd be in contempt of court in under five minutes. Customer service? Let's not even go there.

There are so few - vanishingly few - areas of life whether they be employment, relationships, church or whatever - where "always saying what you think" is ever going to be a good thing. I look forward to RT's next sermon, where hopefully will someone will repeatedly disagree with him out loud. After all, they're just saying what they think.

Sorry - that's a character flaw, not an admirable trait.

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badman
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
"The amazing thing about Richard is that he says what he thinks. All the time."

Quick check on the fruits of the spirit:

quote:
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control." (Galatians 5:22)
None of these qualities suggest that saying what you think, all the time, regardless of the impact on others, is high up on the list of Christian virtues.

Honesty is good, but kindness is essential, and you can be tactful without being dishonest.

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Custard
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# 5402

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quote:
Originally posted by badman:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
"The amazing thing about Richard is that he says what he thinks. All the time."

Quick check on the fruits of the spirit:

quote:
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control." (Galatians 5:22)

[complete tangent] As your quote from Galatians 5 suggests, it's fruit not fruits.[/tangent]

quote:

Honesty is good, but kindness is essential, and you can be tactful without being dishonest.

I agree.

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Arrietty

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# 45

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I look forward to RT's next sermon, where hopefully will someone will repeatedly disagree with him out loud. After all, they're just saying what they think.

Presumably you're only allowed to say what you think if you think the right things though. Otherwise, members of staff who have said what they thought wouldn't have been subjected to disciplnary measures.

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i-church

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Pokrov
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# 11515

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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
[complete tangent] As your quote from Galatians 5 suggests, it's fruit not fruits.[/tangent]

Yes, because 'fruit' is a plural noun. Like Men/Women. Easy misteka ta meka...

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Custard
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# 5402

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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
Yes, because 'fruit' is a plural noun. Like Men/Women. Easy misteka ta meka...

This got me scurrying for my Greek, to find it is

ο δε καρπος... εστιν

Definitely singular.

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Arrietty

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Grammatically singular but in this sense collective, surely?

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Jolly Jape
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# 3296

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Re: fruit/fruits

Custard, is this digression significant as to how we understand Galatians 5:22, or just a contribution towards your Pedantry 101 coursework? [Big Grin]

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Yerevan
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
This seems to boil down to the idea that the study of Christianity should be the preserve of Christians. Insert the words "Islam" and "Muslims" or "atheism" and "atheists" here and you might see the problem more clearly. Atheists/agnostics/Jews/Muslims whatevers are going to continue using the tools of intellectual enquiry to investigate on your faith whether its taught academically or not, just as I'm going to continue using the tools of intellectual enquiry to understand theirs. Its great. Get used to it.

Whats your opinion on church history btw, given that the 'secularising' of that subject was probably the best thing that ever happened to it?

It's a really interesting question and topic, but it's a complete tangent to this discussion and I don't have time to go there at the moment (maybe in a couple of days). How about starting a new thread?
I think it is interesting and I'll start another thread for it. Its relevant here in that if your attitude was representative of Wycliffe it would be hard to see what advantage maintaining the university link would have for either institution.
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The Weeder
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# 11321

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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
quote:
Originally posted by badman:
Is this what Wycliffe has taught you?

Nope.

quote:
It suggests a rather amazing lack of confidence in God that you don't think he should be put under academic scrutiny, doesn't it?
Yawn. It's the whole issue of authority.

We have, in some sense, authority over the universe. We can look at it, put bits of it in a box and poke them or cut them open to see how they work.

In no sense do we have authority over God. He is to be understood (inasmuch as that is possible) on his own terms, not on ours. It's the whole credo ut intellegam and fides querens intellectum and precedit fides, sequitur intellectus which is so fundamental, but is so often totally ignored in academic theology departments, especially when it comes to Biblical studies.

You try expressing Augustine's or Aquinas's idea that you need to believe (and hence to obey and to love) as a precondition of being able to understand in a secular academic theology faculty, and see how far it gets you.

ETA - and I did get the fancy Latin quotes from studying here, but at the secular academic theology faculty, by reading around the reading list a bit.

If we can not engage with studying Theology at an academic level, what are you doing at a University, Custard? As a Reader in Training, I am relishing engaging with the academic discipline of Theology, and particularly value your ex principals (Mc Grath) work on the subject.

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LucyP
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# 10476

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--continues the tangent--

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
Yes, because 'fruit' is a plural noun. Like Men/Women. Easy misteka ta meka...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Custard

This got me scurrying for my Greek, to find it is

ο δε καρπος... εστιν

Definitely singular.

Sorry, I just have to say something here, because Custard's view was (unnecessarily IMO) emphasised in a sermon I heard last week, & it's been bugging me ever since!

"Fruit" is a collective noun. You can say "a basket of fruit" in a way that you can't say " a basket of vegetable" or "a basket of egg" (assuming the eggs are unbroken). When referring to the fruit, you can say "the fruit in the basket was ripe" -ie, singular verb for potentially several fruits.

Other references to fruit in the new testament also refer to the fruit in a way that can express plurality - "you did not choose me, but I chose you, to go & bear fruit". Since we are often likened to vines, the analogy suggests many grapes, not just one measly little grape.

--- end tangent ----

[ 01. October 2007, 11:05: Message edited by: LucyP ]

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Custard
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# 5402

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quote:
Originally posted by Tumphouse:
If we can not engage with studying Theology at an academic level

That is quite clearly not what I said, but I'll save discussion of it for the other thread and an occasion when I have more time.

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Charles Read
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# 3963

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Re reporting:
quote:
And I don't think it is getting 'unnecessarily wound up' to become anxious when you are the subject of an unclear process consisting of discussions to which you have no input and which may judge you unfit.



... as Arietty said.

The process should be clear - that depends on the institution making it clear to the student, I grant you. if it isn't - ask awkward questions!

The process we followed in Cranmer and which we follow in Norwich (similar to other colleges and course I am familiar with, but I use the example of places I know best)was that reports from e.g. placement supervisors were discussed with the student by the supervisor and the tutor (and the student had opportunity to say they were inaccurate). Reports by the tutor / staff member were / are discussed in draft with the student who can ask for rewrites, amendments etc.. I have always found that this process can produce a report which both tutor and student are happy with, even if it contains a few home truths the student finds painful - the key thing is it is the instutution's report which the student has seen and discussed.

I often find myself writing such things as:
"Fred's vicar says he is tactless and blunt, but the college staff have seen no evidence of this and Fred himself struggles to see how his vicar has got this impression of him."

True that the institution will usually know the candidate better than the bishop - my experience is that bishops interview candidates who are or might be not recommended very carefully and do sometimes overturn the recommendation.

The reference to 'unnecessarily wound up' was actuually to students who presented no 'issues' but were generaly worried anyway! I did not intend to belittle those who have been worried by the process and have always tried to be as open as possible about it with students to allay fears.

Abd a final aside on this to Custard: you know this I am sure, but just to make it clear to all here - I do not intend to discuss individual cases of non-recommendation here or elsewhere, whether or not I know or knew the candidate.

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Pokrov
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# 11515

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quote:
Originally posted by LucyP:
--continues the tangent--

quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
Yes, because 'fruit' is a plural noun. Like Men/Women. Easy misteka ta meka...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Custard

This got me scurrying for my Greek, to find it is

ο δε καρπος... εστιν

Definitely singular.

..."Fruit" is a collective noun.

--- end tangent ----

Sorry, yes...'collective'. That's what I meant. Not 'plural' in the pure grammatical sense.

In German one has 'die Frucht' (Fruit) a collective singular AND die Fruechte (Fruits) a plural.

I don't know whether Greek as a 'plural' form or just the collective singular.

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Scribehunter
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# 12750

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More from Eeva John here.

There is an interesting joint statement from James Jones and Richard Turnbull read out at the end. They are sticking to their story.

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pete173
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# 4622

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There's also now, I understand, a resignation of one of the members of Council.

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Pete

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badman
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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
More from Eeva John here.

There is an interesting joint statement from James Jones and Richard Turnbull read out at the end. They are sticking to their story.

They talk of "differentiating governance from management".

That's OK as far as it goes, but the purpose of good governance is to ensure good management. When top managers fail, the governors have either to reform or replace them. They cannot disassociate themselves from the failure.

The joint statement does not acknowledge any failure, or any bad news of any description at all.

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Custard
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# 5402

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Richard has consistently said that he's made mistakes and is fallible and sinful. We all are.

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pete173
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# 4622

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Here is the link to the latest stuff. It's not fallibility that's at issue. It's governance, competence, and justice.

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Pete

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GreyFace
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# 4682

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I don't have an axe to grind here Custard but I'd be interested to know if he's then gone on to apologise to specific people for specific mistakes.

I've noticed this tendency in my own life to acknowledge my sins in the abstract. Or perhaps even in the concrete, and then do nothing.

Once again, I'm not saying Richard's like this. I've never met him and know nothing about him beyond what's been on this thread. It just seems important to know, if you're going to use the kind of statement you just made in defence of his character.

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Custard
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Greyface - I honestly don't know. If he has done, it's been in private.

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GreyFace
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Fair enough Custard, thanks.
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Gracie
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Richard has consistently said that he's made mistakes and is fallible and sinful. We all are.

I don't have any axe to grind either here, Custard, but when I read this my reaction, having followed most of this thread, was identical to GreyFace's. It's all to easy to say in general "of course I've made mistakes, we all do" than to admit to someone we have wronged that we have wronged them.

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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine

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