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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
Does anybody know how many woman ordinands there are at Wycliffe? Are these sort of figures published officially anywhere?

I don't have them offhand, they might be somewhere but I don't have time to look them up at the moment.

I'd guess 30% of ordinands, but that's in line with figures across the residential colleges (women are more likely than men, for whatever reason, to train on regional courses).

quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
I gather that SEITE has withdrawn its position in biblical studies 'due to unforseen circumstances'. This vacancy arose through the planned departure of Rev. Dr. Andy Angel to Wycliffe (scheduled for December). I'm wondering whether Andy Angel has changed his mind about going to Wycliffe.

No idea whatsoever.


quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
Custard. I'm not seeing a dogpile here...

I hope the issue is resolved soon. Everyone keeping quiet isn't going to make that happen any quicker.

What I am seeing is people concluding that they know the truth before hearing both sides of the case.

I agree with your hope; people keeping quiet would however make it happen less painfully for many of those involved and in a way that is less damaging to the reputation of the Church.

[ 04. October 2007, 09:17: Message edited by: Custard. ]

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Arrietty

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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
quote:
Originally posted by Duo Seraphim:
I have some concerns about this post.

It is an inappropriate use of Purgatory to spread insider information or to discuss tactics or who is acting as whose spokesperson. The last sentence is also getting too personal.

Stick to discussion of what is in the public domain.

Duo Seraphim, Purgatory Host

I apologise if I have stepped over the boundaries of what is appropriate in Purgatory.

(I would point out, however, that it is not me who is spreading "insider information")

I hope that it can be seen that my comments were not intended maliciously, but out of genuine concern.

Sorry.

Apologies from me as well, I genuinely did not understand 'no more along this line' from your host post but do now. Should I wish to comment further I will do so in the Styx.

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pete173
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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
Does anybody know how many woman ordinands there are at Wycliffe? Are these sort of figures published officially anywhere?

I don't think that there has thus far been any problem for women training at Wycliffe - I've sent several of my women ordinands there over the past few years, and they have thoroughly enjoyed the experience and come back very well trained. They were also pretty feisty with some of the more unreconstructed public schoolboys among the students who tried to play the "headship" card. In terms of numbers, Wycliffe is up to its agreed maximum, and that will include a good number of women in training.

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
I don't think that there has thus far been any problem for women training at Wycliffe - I've sent several of my women ordinands there over the past few years, and they have thoroughly enjoyed the experience and come back very well trained.

Thanks for this.

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Yerevan
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quote:
I agree with your hope; people keeping quiet would however make it happen less painfully for many of those involved and in a way that is less damaging to the reputation of the Church.
I've seen the consequences of Christians following your logic and keeping quiet about serious internal issues. It generally leads to those issues being swept under the carpet while incompetence thrives and anyone who speaks out is squashed. IF there are serious problems at Wycliffe and IF the current leadership has created those problems or is completely unable to resolve them (as seems to be the case) then its not in the church's interests to let them go on their merry way. Nor is ignoring the many concerns raised by people inside that institution.
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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
people keeping quiet would however make it happen less painfully for many of those involved and in a way that is less damaging to the reputation of the Church.

No. No it wouldn't.

What is damaging the reputation of the Church is the continued lock-step silence of the Council and Principle of Wycliffe College. People - Christians, non-Christians, ordinary decent pagans - expect honesty and openness from a Christian institution that purports to value these virtues.

There are several - well, they're not even allegations anymore - pieces of prima facia evidence that show the leaders of Wycliffe have acted very poorly indeed.

We can - like judges and juries do - make inferences from 'no reply'. RT and the Council are not keeping their counsel. They are not waiting for internal procedures to run their course. They are hiding. And it's this - not your beloved dogpile, not the leaks and the open letters, not Stephen Bates - which is wrong.

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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
IF there are serious problems at Wycliffe and IF the current leadership has created those problems or is completely unable to resolve them (as seems to be the case) then its not in the church's interests to let them go on their merry way. Nor is ignoring the many concerns raised by people inside that institution.

I agree with that. I was talking about the secondary comment, and things like the initial letter to the Guardian.

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Nightlamp
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Another article in the Guardian found here. It would seem that Mr Turnbull is very well paid.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Nightlamp
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It seems a certain bishop has up set some people (See here).

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Charles Read
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All Wycliffe staff are paid well above what other college / course staff are paid.

How do I know? (Since someone is bound to ask...) I applied for a post at Wycliffe Hall a while ago and was amazed at reading what the salary was when I got the further particulars plus one of the new staff told me a few weeks ago what their new salary was.

College / course staff are usually paid on the Lichfield Scale - i.e. tutors paid as if incumbents and Principals as if residentiary canons. Housing also provided, or a housing allownce paid.

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Custard
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Because Wycliffe is also part of Oxford University, the pay scale is (I believe) an average of the University one and the C of E one. Hence they are underpaid by the standards of Oxford academics but overpaid by the standards of C of E theological college tutors.

I think that was what was said at one of the interviews anyway...

[ 04. October 2007, 13:39: Message edited by: Custard. ]

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Archimandrite
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Because Wycliffe is also part of Oxford University, the pay scale is (I believe) an average of the University one and the C of E one. Hence they are underpaid by the standards of Oxford academics but overpaid by the standards of C of E theological college tutors.

I think that was what was said at one of the interviews anyway...

The PPH review says that Wycliffe's salary scales

quote:
approximately follow those for Church of England incumbents (together with some provision for housing)
It also says that Regent's Park have the best paid fellows, although they're paid
quote:
considerably less than College Fellows


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Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
Another article in the Guardian found here. It would seem that Mr Turnbull is very well paid.

Not to mention performance bonuses.
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Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
All Wycliffe staff are paid well above what other college / course staff are paid.

College / course staff are usually paid on the Lichfield Scale - i.e. tutors paid as if incumbents and Principals as if residentiary canons. Housing also provided, or a housing allownce paid.

It turns out from the Church Times that the issue was not the normal higher salary that Wycliffe offers (reasonably it seems in view of the high cost of property in Oxford); but a further increase over and above the advertised rate:
quote:
When it had recruited the new Principal, Dr Richard Turnbull, two years ago, it was told to increase his pay from that advertised to that of a cathedral dean in order to secure his services. “There was no supporting paperwork with reasoned argument, but the Treasurer simply told us that we might lose the candidate if we did not agree.”
The salary of a cathedral dean on the Lichfield scale is the same as that of a suffragan bishop (1.59 x stipend plus housing); the salary of a canon is 1.3 x stipend.

I don't see any of this as particularly scandalous regarding Richard Turnbull. After all he is an accountant. He negotiated a higher salary. Big deal. It shows that the Council thought that he was a good catch for the position (for which he no doubt looked fairly well qualified - leaving aside his lack of experience in theological education); and it shows the lack of decent procedures within the Council. But it is hardly scandalous.

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Nightlamp
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It does show if true poor management on behalf of the college.

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Scribehunter
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On this basis Turnbull's salary is probably around £33,358 (plus housing, which is right next door to Custard's place at Wycliffe). That is not excessively high in comparison with academic salaries in Oxford, nor bearing in mind the level of responsibility that such a post bears. But it is not bad from where I sit (the stated housing allowance level at Wycliffe is £15,000 per annum, so it is actually better to live outside of college).
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Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
It does show if true poor management on behalf of the college.

Yeah, well that would hardly be surprising would it? Poor management seems to characterise the institution from top down. But to me the scandalous part is the treatment of the staff not the payment of the salaries.
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Custard
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I'd like to apologise publicly.

Far too much of what I have been posting on here has simply served to fuel gossip. I know there are too many people tempted in that direction - I'm one of them sometimes, and I don't think reading or contributing to this thread had helped any of us.

I might be back if there's more developments or if there's serious factual inaccuracies which I can correct without people immediately accusing me of being a mouthpiece for someone else.

But without that, I don't see that my continued presence on this thread serves any useful purpose. Same probably goes for the rest of you, but that's between you and God. I'm done here for now.

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Pyx_e

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quote:
I don't see that my continued presence on this thread serves any useful purpose. Same probably goes for the rest of you
Yeah, shush everyone so it can go away.

P

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I don't think reading or contributing to this thread had helped any of us.

I disagree.

It's helped keep a serious matter in the public eye when those responsible would like it to just go away.

It's added - to a greater or lesser extent - to the calls for the truth to be known.

It's part of the role of us footsoldiers to make sure our leaders are accountable for what they do.

It's expressed solidarity with those who believe they've been forced out of Wycliffe Hall.

Not bad at all for a single thread. Almost prophetic in its way. Good work everyone.

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Pokrov
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Custard (if you're still reading this...),

I wonder whether there has been a misunderstanding from your perspective about the nature of the critique that others have been making? I mean, most of the posts that have been anti-RT have not been ad hominem attacks on his value/worth as a human being (I'm sure he is a very loving husband/father/son/brother whatever) but criticism of his professional abilities, 'vision' and leadership style.

As one who works in the public 'eye' I'm all too aware of the vulnerability of critiques against the practice of my profession, however this is par for the course and those who take on public and leadership roles must realise that they will be open to criticism and debate.

If he's a friend of yours then I admire your commitment to defend a friend, but I wonder whether your support for a friend has led you to defend his professional reputation, something which I don't think you can actually 'do', since you are not a council member, staff member (or professional academic theologian) or in any position to actually 'know' what's been going on.

Certainly you may be able to vouch for his probity or kindness, but this debate as - from the beginning - been about his performance as the Principle of WH.

As you say, much of this thread has revolved around conjecture, but this conjecture has not been without 'primary sources' (various staff letters, RT's Reform appearance etc..) and not irrationally applied (we're not a thick bunch here...)

If I felt that this matter was being referred to an external agency then I would be more inclined to 'sit tight', but I can't help thinking that RT et al would all too much like this to just 'blow over', which would be a sticking of heads in the sand.

If a simple SoF Purg thread can help keep the debate (and accountability) alive, in the face of an attempt to 'bury bad news', then all the more kudos to it's presence.

[ 06. October 2007, 12:00: Message edited by: Richard Collins ]

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Zwingli
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Because Wycliffe is also part of Oxford University, the pay scale is (I believe) an average of the University one and the C of E one. Hence they are underpaid by the standards of Oxford academics but overpaid by the standards of C of E theological college tutors.

I think that was what was said at one of the interviews anyway...

How can Wycliffe be an Oxford college and claim to be the academic equal of other colleges when its pay scales are lower? Pay isn't everything but it is fairly hard to claim to have the same prestige but lower pay.
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Arrietty

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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Far too much of what I have been posting on here has simply served to fuel gossip. I know there are too many people tempted in that direction - I'm one of them sometimes, and I don't think reading or contributing to this thread had helped any of us.

Thanks for the apology, but you certainly didn't provoke me into gossiping. The Wycliffe Hall saga and attendant bad publicity is as far as I can see the inevitable outcome of a system which lacks the necessary checks and balances. I hope any review this provokes will go far beyond Wycliffe Hall and examine the lines of accountability between all those responsible for the training C of E ordinands and those who are paying for it.

I make absolutely no judgment on Richard Turnbull as a human being and accept that many people who know him speak warmly of him because they genuinely admire him. I feel sorry for everyone involved, including, believe it or not, Richard Turnbull who I suspect (though of course don't know) has been made very vulnerable to public criticism by poor support/advice from those who appointed him.

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Tubbs

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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
...
If he's a friend of yours then I admire your commitment to defend a friend, but I wonder whether your support for a friend has led you to defend his professional reputation ...
Certainly you may be able to vouch for his probity or kindness, but this debate as - from the beginning - been about his performance as the Principle of WH.

Actually I think this is a key distinction. I know James Jones through my previous church. And, based on that, I would say that he is a good bloke. My opinion of his performance as a Bishop is based purely on what I've seen reported. And that's a good deal less positive.

Based on what's in the public domain, Turnbull and the council have been involved in a situation where the working relationship between them and their staff has become so bad, that some have chosen to resign. (And in some cases have chosen to resign without another job to go to). Others appear to have been sacked without the proper, legal procedures having been followed.

Whether or Turnbull and the other council members are "good people" is actually completely irrelevant to the circumstances being discussed. There is a big mess at Wycliffe Hall. As it happened on their watch, the buck really does stop with them.

Tubbs

[ 06. October 2007, 14:46: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Zwingli:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Because Wycliffe is also part of Oxford University, the pay scale is (I believe) an average of the University one and the C of E one. Hence they are underpaid by the standards of Oxford academics but overpaid by the standards of C of E theological college tutors.

I think that was what was said at one of the interviews anyway...

How can Wycliffe be an Oxford college and claim to be the academic equal of other colleges when its pay scales are lower? Pay isn't everything but it is fairly hard to claim to have the same prestige but lower pay.
I'm surprised by this. I thought that the theory, in the C of E, was that all clergy are paid more or less the same. I know bishops, deans, canons etc. are paid rather more, but much less relatively than they would have been 100 years or so ago. Theological college staff (at least the ordained ones) have always been seen as the equivalent of parish priests. Different skills and qualifications from the average vicar, surely, but then the vicar of St Asbo in the Backstreets needs to be equally if differently skilled. If clergy see theological teaching as a 'prestige' job then no wonder the C of E's in such a mess.

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Yerevan
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What Richard Collins said. I'm not sure where the reference to "gossip" comes from, as the discussion has been based on information in the public domain and what can plausibly be infered from it. Personally I've avoided posting the few bits of "gossip" (all negative) picked up from living in Oxford and knowing a few theology types, because I've no clue how accurate it is.
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innocent(ish)
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I'm with Yerevan on this one. I spent some time with a recently departed (left their job, not died - best to be clear) lecturer from Wycliffe, as well as three days last week with very recent graduates from there. Everything they talked about with reference to the current situation bore out the gist of information currently available.

It's the lack of comment from the college and council I find somewhat disturbing.

Custard, I hope you don't stop posting on this topic. I realise that it's paddling up stream, but your voice is acting as a much needed check and balance without any word from the college or council itself.

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Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
I'd like to apologise publicly.

What for exactly? Tempting other people into gossip? Is that it?
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Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Zwingli:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Because Wycliffe is also part of Oxford University, the pay scale is (I believe) an average of the University one and the C of E one. Hence they are underpaid by the standards of Oxford academics but overpaid by the standards of C of E theological college tutors.

I think that was what was said at one of the interviews anyway...

How can Wycliffe be an Oxford college and claim to be the academic equal of other colleges when its pay scales are lower? Pay isn't everything but it is fairly hard to claim to have the same prestige but lower pay.
I'm surprised by this. I thought that the theory, in the C of E, was that all clergy are paid more or less the same. I know bishops, deans, canons etc. are paid rather more, but much less relatively than they would have been 100 years or so ago. Theological college staff (at least the ordained ones) have always been seen as the equivalent of parish priests. Different skills and qualifications from the average vicar, surely, but then the vicar of St Asbo in the Backstreets needs to be equally if differently skilled. If clergy see theological teaching as a 'prestige' job then no wonder the C of E's in such a mess.
Differentials in stipend are defended in the fascinating publication by the Clergy Stipends Review Group called "Generosity and Sacrifice" (2001). This defends (well, asserts would be a better word) the idea that differentials in renumeration are "theologically reasonable". This would be an almost complete tangent except for the interesting fact that the Review Group was chaired by Rev. Dr. Richard Turnbull.

[ 06. October 2007, 22:01: Message edited by: Scribehunter ]

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pete173
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What is unacceptable is that other colleges and courses hold to the Lichfield scale to pay their staff, which means that there is no parity between staff at Wycliffe and those elsewhere. This is a nationally agreed scale.
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Scribehunter
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So all the staff leaving Wycliffe for other jobs are probably taking a pay cut.
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Charles Read
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I think the pay issue is not at the heart of the Wycliffe difficulties, but I do think it is best to be open about all this. I agree with Pete 173 who has said what I cannot say without appearing to be jealous of better paid Wycliffe colleagues!

College and course tutors are paid incumbent stipend + house or housing allowance. The allowance is negotiated between te staff and their institution as housing vosts vary regionally. There is a national allowance figure, but institutions may set their own.

Senior staff are paid more - the Principal /Warden / course director will be paid as a residebtiary canon, which I think is £24K (at least it was when I was interviewed for a Principal post last year!) As a Vice-Principal, I am paid stipend + 10% (which is about £22K). All this plus house etc..

I did not go into theological teaching for the pay and I think it is right to be paid on the clergy scale - I regard what I do as ministry more than academia, though I do see myself as an academic serving the church. (I should probably go for counselling over my schizophrenia but I'm in two minds about it.)

In fact, when I stated work at Cranmer Hall, my take home pay fell because I no longer had the tax breaks which parish clergy rightly get - this, I should stress, was not Cranmer's fault! They paid me exactly what they should, but no-one had warned me about the changed tax situation (and I had not spotted it) - no great problem in the end, but a shock when I opened my first pay packet!

Where this does come back to REAWH is that when you are sacked or leave without another job to go to, you lose your home as well as your job (if you live in a house provided by college). You also will probably have to uproot children from schools and social networks - if you were in an 'ordinary' job this may not happen. Some of the WH staff are certainly in the position of seeing the effect of what is happening on their children and housing.

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Pokrov
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
Some of the WH staff are certainly in the position of seeing the effect of what is happening on their children and housing.

I guess no sane person does this to themselves (or their family) without considering the consequences - which makes the 'dismissal' issue even more of a millstone around the necks of the Council and Hall leadership.

Lord have mercy [Votive] [Votive] [Votive]

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Scribehunter
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Thanks Charles for this. Presumably the housing allowance could legitimately vary from place to place - it would have to be enough to rent an incumbent-standard house, which would presumably be different in Norwich compared to Oxford.
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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by Zwingli:
quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
Because Wycliffe is also part of Oxford University, the pay scale is (I believe) an average of the University one and the C of E one. Hence they are underpaid by the standards of Oxford academics but overpaid by the standards of C of E theological college tutors.

I think that was what was said at one of the interviews anyway...

How can Wycliffe be an Oxford college and claim to be the academic equal of other colleges when its pay scales are lower? Pay isn't everything but it is fairly hard to claim to have the same prestige but lower pay.
It isn't an Oxford college; it's a permanent private hall of the University. This means that it's part of the same prestigious university but isn't as 'prestigious' as even Teddy Hall.

Thurible

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Scribehunter
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Judging by the Lecture List for Michaelmas (pdf here), Wycliffe Hall is not making much of a contribution to the Faculty this year.
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innocent(ish)
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The Timesonline reports that 'Bishops in the Church of England are to bring their inspection of Wycliffe Hall forward in the wake of concerns about management at the college.' Although only by about three months.

Read it here.

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"Christianity has become part of the furniture ... like a grand piano nobody plays any longer.I want the dust to be taken off and people to play music." Archbishop John Sentamu

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pete173
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I suspect that this is a smoke screen. Questions at General Synod in July elicited a response that there would be an enquiry. Now we have an announcement that there has been a slight bringing forward of the routine inspection, which isn't at all the same thing.

Clare MacInnes' resignation letter to the Bishop of Liverpool makes it clear that she thinks this was a tactic on the part of the Council:

"In addition, I was very disturbed by your update to Council on the findings of this Committee last week. In particular, by the manner in which you talked about seeing off a further inspection of the Hall until Michaelmas 2008. I understood they wanted to come in to inspect either this term or next. It suggested to me that we had something to hide, whereas I would have preferred to demonstrate some immediate transparency over the affairs of the Hall."

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Pete

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innocent(ish)
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Isn't it about now that the government step in, and change it to a city academy?

[ 09. October 2007, 07:35: Message edited by: innocent(ish) ]

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"Christianity has become part of the furniture ... like a grand piano nobody plays any longer.I want the dust to be taken off and people to play music." Archbishop John Sentamu

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Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by innocent(ish):
The Timesonline reports that 'Bishops in the Church of England are to bring their inspection of Wycliffe Hall forward in the wake of concerns about management at the college.' Although only by about three months.

Read it here.

This report is also notable for the statements attributed to the Simon Vibert:
quote:
Wycliffe vice-principal, the Rev Simon Vibert, defended his college’s record. He told The Times that the controversies surrounding the college represented a lack of understanding about how the hall operates. The inspection had been brought forward by just three months, he said. “In terms of where Wycliffe is at the moment, we are full,” he said. “We are quarter full already for ordinands next year. It does seem as though there are a few people who would rather that Wycliffe was not succeeding.” He acknowledged that part of the controversy concerned the style of theological education delivered by Wycliffe.

“There are those who think Wycliffe should be broader in its evangelical outlook. But a look at the trust deed of the college makes it clear it is an evangelical college.” The trust deed dates from 1875 and senior staff claim that many of the changes taking place in the college’s management are to do with trying to fulfil the demands of the deed while adapting to the institution’s growth. Dr Vibert said: “Many of the structures were designed to deal with a smaller college.”

This obviously bypasses a lot of issues (injustice, bullying, lying, behaving in non-Christian ways etc., etc., etc.), but does raise with some clarity the issue of evangelical "narrowness":
quote:
“There are those who think Wycliffe should be broader in its evangelical outlook. But a look at the trust deed of the college makes it clear it is an evangelical college.”
I can't be sure that this is quoted accurately, since surely an evangelical college can have a breadth of evangelical outlook. But the more important issue is that the Trust Deeds make no reference to Wycliffe being "an evangelical college", except in the general sense of producing "faithful and able Ministers of the Gospel." It simply points out that the principles of the Hall (Ridley Hall has the same deed) are based on the thirty-nine articles:
quote:
2. THE PRINCIPLES on which the Halls are founded are those expressed in the Thirty-nine Articles of the Church of England and with reference to matters in controversy at the present day special stress is laid upon the following particulars [basically emphasising the importance of Articles 2, 6, 11 and 31 in their plain sense]
I don't see any basis in the thirty-nine articles for taking Wycliffe Hall away from mainstream evangelical Anglicanism.
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Charles Read
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I fear Dr Vibert has just shot Dr Turnbull in the foot.

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badman
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quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
I suspect that this is a smoke screen. Questions at General Synod in July elicited a response that there would be an enquiry. Now we have an announcement that there has been a slight bringing forward of the routine inspection, which isn't at all the same thing.

Clare MacInnes' resignation letter to the Bishop of Liverpool makes it clear that she thinks this was a tactic on the part of the Council...

The question put at General Synod was:

quote:
Q. Given the reports in the media that staff relationships have broken down at Wycliffe Hall theological college, what steps is the Ministry Division taking to resolve the matter?
The answer, given by the Bishop of Derby as Vice Chairman of the Theological Education and Training Committee, was:

quote:
The Bishop of Norwich, the Chair of Ministry Division has been in regular contact with the Bishop of Liverpool, the Chair of the Wycliffe Council. Further, the Bishops’ Committee for Ministry has set in place a process to inform itself regarding the situation at Wycliffe. A small team of independent advisors, drawn from current Senior Inspectors, will report to the Bishops’ Committee for Ministry, which can then take any further action, if required.
pete173 makes an excellent point in reminding us of this. What has come of it, if anything?
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BroJames
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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
,snip> the more important issue is that the Trust Deeds make no reference to Wycliffe being "an evangelical college", except in the general sense of producing "faithful and able Ministers of the Gospel." It simply points out that the principles of the Hall (Ridley Hall has the same deed) are based on the thirty-nine articles<snip>

Are the Trust Deeds viewable online?
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Pyx_e

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Bishops inspections are not without teeth. Ask about the report on (the very soon after closed) Aston Training Scheme. Though does 08 seems a bit far away.

P

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moonlitdoor
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Can I ask what being an evangelical college means ? Does it refer to the sort of teaching given and the sort of worship used ?

Or does such a college deliberately select evangelical candidates ? I realise that some candidates will want to go to colleges that reflect their own thinking, but I had assumed that catholics can go to Wycliffe if they want to.

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We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai

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innocent(ish)
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Being an evangelical college will mean the underlying ethos of its teaching and corporate life is evangelical. It does not mean that they will only accept ordinands from an evangelical background, that certainly was not my experience at Ridley

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"Christianity has become part of the furniture ... like a grand piano nobody plays any longer.I want the dust to be taken off and people to play music." Archbishop John Sentamu

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Scribehunter
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
I fear Dr Vibert has just shot Dr Turnbull in the foot.

Charles,
Can you spell it out for me?

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welsh dragon

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quote:
Originally posted by moonlitdoor:
I realise that some candidates will want to go to colleges that reflect their own thinking, but I had assumed that catholics can go to Wycliffe if they want to.

A friend of mine who used to work at Wycliffe said that there were a few ordinands who did not fit the evangelical type. They tended to be the sort of person who liked an argument and were a bit of a character. Apparently, you could spot the mavericks fairly easily at the start of the academic year.

This was about 7 or 8 years ago. It sounds from the above as though Wycliffe is moving towards a more uniform evangelical make-up.

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Charles Read
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quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Charles Read:
I fear Dr Vibert has just shot Dr Turnbull in the foot.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Charles,
Can you spell it out for me?

I think it looks like this: Dr T has been careful to say he is not narrowing the evangelical ethos of Wycliffe but Dr V appears to say that is exactly what is happening or needs to.

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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi

"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh

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FreeJack
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Do I get the feeling that the Bishop of Liverpool is not very popular in the House of Bishops at the moment?

Oh, and is Clare MacInnes the wife of David, formerly Rector of St Aldate's?

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