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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
Johnny S
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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
The point is that being a Crystal Palace fan is tribal because it admits all sorts of people whose unifying quality is they support Crystal Palace. Now suppose a dodgy Serbian billionaire who made his loot by nefarious means during the Balkan war buys up Crystal Palace. At which point Crystal Palace fans divvy up between the ones who like him because he's promised to bung huge wodges of cash at the club and those who don't because of his background. At which point the tribe fissures doctrinally. Now you are either a Crystal Palace Fan For Scumovic or you are a Crystal Palace Fan Against Scumovic. Time was you could disagree about whether Trevor Francis (he did manage your lot for a bit, didn't he?) was any good as a manager and still rub along amicably. Now you have to hold the Right Views.

Good analogy... although I think, sadly, that the church is too much like a football supporters club.

I pray every day for Scumovic to come ... now you have given me his name [Votive]

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Custard
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A few things...

As far as I can tell, evangelicalism started in the 1500s (well, MacCulloch says it did anyway and he knows lots more about the 1500s than I do), when it very clearly was defined doctrinally.

And certainly all through my experience of evangelicalism, most evangelicals I have known would have defined it doctrinally, on largely the same lines as in the 1500s.

I think what we might be seeing now is a fracturing of the main bit of the old "low church" into factions, with at least one of them being evangelical.

Wycliffe genuinely does represent the breadth of contemporary evangelicalism (and then some; we've got a couple of RC students for example), and there's plenty of (mostly very friendly) debate on live issues within evangelicalism - ordination of women and use of ecstatic gifts are probably the two biggest at the moment, and the college does try very hard to affirm multiple integrities.

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Leprechaun

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This is all very interesting, but is this actually what is going on at Wycliffe?
Fact is, when principals of colleges (and ministers of large churches, and chairs of para-church organisations) change there is usually a turnover of staff - and ISTM the Guardian is enjoying muckraking something out of what is just a perfectly normal process that often leaves a few people with noses out of joint.
Could, for example, Turnbull's appointment of a VP opposed to OoW (which seems to be the beef of the Church Times) when he is himself in favour of it, not actually be construed as a move towards greater inclusivity?

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BIg Carp
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[/QUOTE]I have to wonder at the mystery of someone pointing the finger at people for not being loving, and then using that same post as a means of condemning a huge swathe of organisations involved in complex decisions about ministry situations. Can you explain, Big Carp, how that models "putting on love" exactly?

This is a classic response and one i have seen so many times before in these instances. Whilst initial behavious or attitudes might be wrong or unloving any critique of them is challeneged as being outrageous, "how can you possibly be so unloving as to critque my lack of love, what hypocracy!" This is a brilliant way of silencing anyone who has a point and a way in which no one can be held to account over their initial actions. I have every sympathy with the people of wycliffe including their principal but i don't think we should suffer censorship on this site!

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Superslug
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quote:
Originally posted by Hermeneut:

BTW, where are you studying (for comparative purposes) - it sounds like a nice place...

Not at college but on the NEOC regional course, just coming upto the end of my first year.

SS

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
As far as I can tell, evangelicalism started in the 1500s (well, MacCulloch says it did anyway and he knows lots more about the 1500s than I do), when it very clearly was defined doctrinally.

I thought evangelicals claimed that evangelicalism is the True Faith of the Bible. Which dates it considerably before 1500 on my reckoning. [Confused]

Perhaps Custard has just conceded a point.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
I'm a Crystal Palace fan ... which means that I'm very lonely and no one else wants to know me [Waterworks]

Palace? Palace? Who the...

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Ken

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Johnny S
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Palace? Palace? Who the...

Champions of Europe... or at least a very small part of South London.

As in ... "They will soar on wings like Eagles!" [Overused] [Overused] [Overused]

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Oscar the Grouch

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On Thinking Anglicans, Stephen Bates has made some more comments about this matter:

a) He's received an email from a "senior evangelical bishop" thanking him for his article.

b) He spoke to members of the staff at WH before printing the article, who all endorsed "the general sense of the anonymous document". They all spoke off the record because of fear of what would happen to them if they were identified.

He finishes by saying:
"They - and we - know that Dr Storkey was threatened with disciplinary action by the principal just for raising the criticisms at a closed staff meeting at the college. And the principal has confirmed that unspecified disciplinary proceedings are ongoing. All of which might create some incentive for anonymity, don't you think?"

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Angloid
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The controversial Vice-principal (see Church Times article) has transformed an open-evangelical parish in South London into a Reform stronghold. I, as a more-or-less-liberal catholic, was welcomed to preside at the eucharist and preach there on numerous occasions during and between the previous incumbencies. Ecumenical co-operation (including with fellow-anglicans) collapsed when he arrived.

[ 18. May 2007, 16:26: Message edited by: Angloid ]

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The controversial Vice-principal (see Church Times article)

which also says:

quote:

Dr Turnbull said on Wednesday that women were welcome to train as priests at Wycliffe Hall, and that their numbers had increased “significantly”. He said that, balancing Mr Vibert’s appointment, he also appointed the Revd Will Donaldson, a Charismatic, who was in favour of women’s ministry “at every level”. Mr Donaldson, from the Willesden area in London diocese, has been appointed as director of Christian leadership. Both men start work on 1 August.

Which doesn't quite fit with the Evil Baby-Eating-Reform-Tendency-Coup attitudes of some of tthe posts here.

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Ken

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pete173
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Will is certainly an excellent acquisition for Wycliffe, and I shall be sorry to lose him.

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Pete

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
The controversial Vice-principal (see Church Times article)

which also says:

quote:

Dr Turnbull said on Wednesday that women were welcome to train as priests at Wycliffe Hall, and that their numbers had increased “significantly”. He said that, balancing Mr Vibert’s appointment, he also appointed the Revd Will Donaldson, a Charismatic, who was in favour of women’s ministry “at every level”. Mr Donaldson, from the Willesden area in London diocese, has been appointed as director of Christian leadership. Both men start work on 1 August.

Which doesn't quite fit with the Evil Baby-Eating-Reform-Tendency-Coup attitudes of some of tthe posts here.

No - but maybe with the dysfunctional-how-can-these-guys-possibly-work-together thoughts.

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rajm
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quote:
Originally posted by Sean D:
(BTW David Urquhart was on the council since before his translation to Birmingham).

Thanks for this clarification!
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FreeJack
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
No - but maybe with the dysfunctional-how-can-these-guys-possibly-work-together thoughts.

I get those thoughts about the Church of England every Petertide!
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
No - but maybe with the dysfunctional-how-can-these-guys-possibly-work-together thoughts.

I get those thoughts about the Church of England every Petertide!
Don't we all! But at least if we can't, we can just ignore one another. Not quite as easy in a college (or a parish).

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quantpole
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Can I get this straight Angloid - you criticise the guy for turning a parish into a reform stronghold, but then object to one of his appointments on the basis that the person is not conservative enough?

[ 18. May 2007, 20:15: Message edited by: quantpole ]

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
Can I get this straight Angloid - you criticise the guy for turning a parish into a reform stronghold, but then object to one of his appointments on the basis that the person is not conservative enough?

I'm sorry quantpole: either I totally misunderstand you or you totally misunderstand me. But I haven't a clue what you mean.

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Mavis
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You are so right Big Carp. It's a Conservative Conspiracy, and is it really any surprise to anyone that it's gone so wrong, so fast. Elaine for president. [Razz]
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quantpole
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
Can I get this straight Angloid - you criticise the guy for turning a parish into a reform stronghold, but then object to one of his appointments on the basis that the person is not conservative enough?

I'm sorry quantpole: either I totally misunderstand you or you totally misunderstand me. But I haven't a clue what you mean.
Ah sorry - I confused the principal with the vice-principal.

I'm still not sure why you're concerned that he's appointed people who disagree on some issues. One of the objections being raised on this thread is that the principal is appointing people who agree with him. These appointments seem to show that he is willing to have some differences of opinion around the place, which is surely a good thing?

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by quantpole:
Ah sorry - I confused the principal with the vice-principal.

I think if you read carefully you will see angloid made the correct observation that both principal and vice principal were very conservative. What I find very weird is that neither of them had any experience of teaching at a theological college (even part time) before becoming principal and vice principal which seems very weird. Who appoints a head teacher who has never taught before? It is a recipe for trouble before you start.

Vibert writes
quote:
I believe that the Bible is perspicuous (clear), infallible (it can not err) and non-contradictory.
To support his arguement he creates a straw man. This kind of simplistic doctrine of scripture in my opinion is going cause issues in any college.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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quantpole
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What you say may well be significant concerns. However, appointing someone who has different opinions surely indicates the principal is not trying to create a con-evo ghetto as some have been suggesting on this thread.
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Nightlamp
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I think he is trying to create a ghetto of mostly conservative lecturers but he needs the non-conservative students to keep the numbers up so the college doesn't have financial problems.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Emma Louise

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:

Vibert writes
quote:
I believe that the Bible is perspicuous (clear), infallible (it can not err) and non-contradictory.
To support his arguement he creates a straw man. This kind of simplistic doctrine of scripture in my opinion is going cause issues in any college.
I don't know the guys background - but it would seem to me to be a very stragnet hing to do to ahve a non accademic overseeing accademics when the non-accademic is going to want to claim authority in terms of doctrin and belief. Your quote really surprises (and worries) me.

I can understand a non-accademic leading a school/uni - but only just. I do think it is hard to do/ not aware of the same issue etc. However if the top bod wants to trump the scholars in terms of Biblical interpretation or doctrine etc thats a bit of a disaster in the making. [Frown]

I hope Wycliffe doesnt turn into a conservative enclave, where you have to believe the correct doctrine etc. I was reasonably evangelical when I went to uni - but i really appreciated seeing the breadth of scholarship at oxford, and after i "got over" the "Is x/y/z "sound" question" (the arrogance of it - 18 year olds asking 19 year olds if their lectureres were "sound" or not" - gah who was I?!?!) I really learnt a lot, and my faith isnt as simplistic as it once was. Im aware of a lot mroe shades of grey - but my view of God has grown because of it! God workign through tons of people over thousands of years and the bible being a recrd of that is more exciting to me than something that was dictated in infalliable manner.

ANyway... .Im going to jump out cos Im ranting! Sorry! (And huge thankyous to wycliffe and Oxford - they were hugely responsible for my formative years!)

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Callan
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Originally posted by Nightlamp:

quote:
What I find very weird is that neither of them had any experience of teaching at a theological college (even part time) before becoming principal and vice principal which seems very weird. Who appoints a head teacher who has never taught before? It is a recipe for trouble before you start.
I suppose there might be grounds for appointing a non-academic to one of those posts but you'd think they'd balance it out with someone with quite a lot of teaching experience as the VP to provide some balance. Given that the rest of the world is moving to a position where teachers in Further/ Higher education have to have a PGCHE and be registered with the professional body appointing random clergymen with no teaching experience appears a little, er, random.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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BIg Carp
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Excellent post Emma,
We cannot allow real biblical scholarship to be overruled by biblical fundamentaism. Biblical interpretation is one of the most sensitive and important skills for modern clergy, if they are not allowed to explore the fabric of scripture and engage with its socio-political contexts for fear of upsetting the literal apple cart, we are going to be lost to a generation of bible bashers not bible lovers. You can still be evangelical and academic.

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Custard
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As I recall, Simon Vibert was appointed as a preacher with experience of training preachers to be in charge of the preaching training programme, rather than as an academic.

The thing about theological colleges is that they are academic, of course they are and should be academic (and there are some good evangelical academics here), but they also are and should be vocational and about training people to do ministry.

For the last 500 years of evangelicalism, and in St Paul too, the key job of church leaders is preaching and teaching to equip the church to use their gifts and stuff. So if you are going to have a college to train people to lead churches, of course you need good preachers who can teach people to preach as well as academics who can train people to academe and people who know about leading churches to train people to lead churches.

Saying a priori that one group of teachers should or shouldn't be above another within a setting like a theological college is dumb.

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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.


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ken
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How long has this taken and how many have actually left?

The OP gave the impression that about half the staff left in one go. The Church Times article was quite a few over a couple of years

To lose half the staff in a few weeks is either a disaster or delberate destruction. To lose a third of the staff in a year is a high rate of turnover that ought to be looked into. To lose a quarter in eighteen months is actually about average - most people stay in one job for less than seven years.

Which is it?

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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BroJames
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It is always a challenge for theological colleges to get the right mix of the theoretical and the practical. They are not just training the parish clergy of the future, but also (it is hoped) some of the key theological thinkers too, and some who in time will be able to operate at a suitable level in the future to be the trainers of other clergy from within the academic setting. Those which have good links with high quality theology faculties/departments are key in this process. It is helpful then if some of those in leading positions within theological colleges carry credibility within the institution to which they are linked.

Sometimes this is dealt with by sharing the requirements between the posts of principal and vice-principal to get the right balance of leadership qualities, academic ability and ability to see to the running of the college (in a broad sense). So long as prinicpal and/or vice-prinicpal carry adequate respect within the university and are not perceived to be undermining the enterprise of theological education in the university then they don't have to be high-profile heavyweight.

The challenging thing for Wycliffe is to move on from the present crisis in such a way that people can see that the institution is adequately staffed by those who have the experience of teaching at this level as well as those who have relevant practical experience. At the time of Richard Turnbull's appointment it looked as though the appointing body felt it was time to have a principal who (though academically competent) would mainly focus on the needs of the institution. Alistair McGrath will have been good for the hall in a different way.

[ 19. May 2007, 11:58: Message edited by: BroJames ]

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Custard
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This could all be worked out with Crockfords and a publically available staff list.

I've only been here a year, Richard for two. At the start of this year, as I recall, there were 10 full-time teaching staff. Since then, one has left to go back into parish work, and two more are moving on over the summer, one moving to a more senior role at another college.

There have currently been two appointments for next year, and I think we're seeking to appoint two more, because the college is growing.

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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.


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Mike T
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3 out of 10. Perhaps slightly on the high side - but only just. And the two new appointments seem well balanced - Will Donaldson is an excellent open evangelical, as well as being New Wine & pro women, which suggests that Richard Turnbull is seeking to maintain a breadth in his appointments.
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FreeJack
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I recall an ordinand seeing Will in the training selection process, so I think he is one of the DDO's Examining Chaplains here. So he will be familiar with how that part of the process works.

If Oak Hill is at its limit, and there is an excess number of conservative evangelicals, then it is likely they will congregate somewhere, and Wycliffe was the most likely place.

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BroJames
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
How long has this taken and how many have actually left?

The OP gave the impression that about half the staff left in one go. The Church Times article was quite a few over a couple of years

To lose half the staff in a few weeks is either a disaster or delberate destruction. To lose a third of the staff in a year is a high rate of turnover that ought to be looked into. To lose a quarter in eighteen months is actually about average - most people stay in one job for less than seven years.

Which is it?

This is quite hard to work out. The WH website lists 14 Academic Staff:
  • Revd Dr Richard Turnbull Principal
  • Revd Dr David Wenham Tutor in New Testament
  • Dr Philip Johnston Tutor in Old Testament and Hebrew
  • Dr Krish Kandiah Director of the OCCA and Tutor in Mission and Evangelism
  • Revd Dr Peter Walker Director of Development and Tutor in New Testament
  • Revd Peter Southwell Senior Tutor; Tutor in Old Testament & Hebrew
  • Revd Dr Adrian Chatfield Tutor in Worship and Spiritual Formation
  • Revd Dr Benno van den Toren Tutor in Doctrine
  • Revd Jenni Williams Tutor in Biblical Studies
  • Revd Dr Andrew Goddard Tutor in Christian Ethics
  • Revd Elisabeth Goddard Tutor for Ministerial Formation
  • Ven Dr Gordon Kuhrt Tutor in Preaching
  • Dr Elaine Storkey Senior Research Fellow
  • Mrs Claire Page Trainer in Communications & Voice Training
and 10 Associate Staff:
  • Revd Canon Dr Michael Green
  • The Very Revd Dr Chris Hancock
  • Dr John Lennox
  • Mrs Jenny Maughan
  • Dr Michael Ramsden
  • Dr Stan Rosenberg
  • Revd Dr Graham Tomlin
  • Revd Simon Walker
  • Revd John Wesson
  • Dr Ravi Zacharias
The Guardian reports the paper it has been shown as saying that
quote:
More than half the teaching staff have resigned this year.
and then the Guardian goes on to say
quote:
Those who have resigned include:
  • the director of pastoral studies
  • the director of studies
  • tutors in liturgy and evangelism
  • vice-principal and tutor in New Testament studies.
[my formatting]
which looks like a minimum of four people, probably five, possibly more. It is difficult to be sure, however, because it is not clear how the category of teaching staff in the circulated paper relates to the categories of Academic and Associate staff, and most of the job titles the Guardian uses do not map directly onto those used by Wycliffe Hall
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Custard
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quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
This is quite hard to work out.

Might I suggest that the 50% figure is one of the many details of the story which seem to be incorrect (along with the conservative takeover, the homophobia, the misogyny, ...)?

To the best of my knowledge, only three full time teaching staff have left or are going to leave at the end of the year.

A couple of part-time teaching staff are also leaving (I can think of one and one retirement, but that's all), but there are always (and rightly so) a large number of part-time teaching staff and it's a much more fluid role.

[And yes, technically I know they'd claim that the story was that that information was in a piece of paper that had been sent to members of staff rather than that that information was true.]

[ 19. May 2007, 15:50: Message edited by: Custard. ]

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BroJames
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Yes, Custard, I agree with you about not taking either the Guardian's story or the anonymous paper at face value. The Church Times is much more measured:
quote:
Since Dr Turnbull was appointed in 2005, six full-time or part-time academic staff have resigned posts.
Six out of a total of twenty four looks about par for t he course by Ken's account - and in the absence of any other factors is obviously nothing to worry about.
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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
As I recall, Simon Vibert was appointed as a preacher with experience of training preachers to be in charge of the preaching training programme, rather than as an academic.

He seems to have been appointed vice-principal.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Six out of a total of twenty four looks about par for t he course by Ken's account.

In an ordinary school with that number of staff it would be a sign of bad news, particularly as it seems 4 out of them are full time staff.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Leprechaun

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Six out of a total of twenty four looks about par for t he course by Ken's account.

In an ordinary school with that number of staff it would be a sign of bad news, particularly as it seems 4 out of them are full time staff.
Maybe, I'm not sure, but I have worked for years in para-church agencies (another "like" situation) and in the first 2 years of a new leader that is not an unusual turnover of staff at all; in fact, I'd almost expect more.
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Johnny S
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quote:
Originally posted by Custard.:
The thing about theological colleges is that they are academic, of course they are and should be academic (and there are some good evangelical academics here), but they also are and should be vocational and about training people to do ministry.

Isn't the problem here that we've set up all sorts of false dichotomies in theological education:

Academic vs. Applied
Confessional vs. Engaging
Principled vs. Open minded
Doing vs. Being
Doctrine vs. Character


I could go on. It's not either / or , it's both / and.

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Emma Louise

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
To lose a quarter in eighteen months is actually about average - most people stay in one job for less than seven years.

Which is it?

I dont know if theological colleges/oxford colleges fit that mould. DAvid Wenham had been there about 20 odd years. Its 7 years since i left uni and a lot of my lecturers are still there.

I now teach in the school I went to as a kid. Its a good school with a good sense of community and great working atmosphere. Its been through 2 changes of headteacher since I left. About 1/3 staff are still the same at least I think.

Not to say turnover with a change of principal isnt normal - it probably is. But for people like David Wenham to go, and for Elaine Storkey etc and other real cores of the community, well respected etc - it sounds odd. (particularly if they are quoted as having an issue with leadership).

I guess it will become a second oak hill. I think thats sad as I think what it had was excellent, but things do change.

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daronmedway
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Hello, haven't posted here for a while but thought I might add my ha'penny's worth seeing that I'm an ex- Wycliffe student (2004).

During my time at Wycliffe (2001-4) there was a degree of tension between what can be described as two (perhaps three) main camps.

The main tension was between a marginal majority of Charismatic Evangelicals and a more Conservative 'remnant' who were known affectionately as 'the Geneva Boys' amongst some of us.

On a day to day basis, amongst the student body, this tension tended to be about the nature of chapel worship (i.e. Jesus is my boyfriend songs vs. Stuart Townend ) and the use of spiritual gifts (particularly prophecy). At the time I think it is fair to say that the Charismatic contingent were carrying the day on that front.

Theologically speaking there was a tension between the Calvinistic conservatives and the somewhat more Arminian charismatics. And these tensions also carried over into the amount of emphasis that the two camps put on preaching over other forms of communication (i.e. multi-media and Art).

However, I was aware of the beginnings of a politicisation of these tensions when the candidacy for the Common Room presidency started to polarise along factional lines. This was not between Conservative and Charismatic, but between Conservative and Open.

My reading of the situation was that some Open (I'd say Liberal) Evangelical ordinands attempted to make vote for the Common Room Presidency about the personal stance of the candidates concerning the OoW. This put the two candidates in an awkward position because, at the time, one candidate was most definitely more conservative than the other and was forced to admit that he was undecided on the issue whilst the other side-stepped the issue as best he could.

This is all pretty trivial on the face of things but I think it does show that a clash between the Open and Conservative camps was on the horizon even then. In fact, I can remember saying as much at the time.

Wycliffe was a highly pressured place: the workload was enormous, the facilities inadequate, and (in my opinion) the student body overly weighted towards privately funded students who weren't Anglican ordinands.

Consequently, and contrary to what Custard said earlier, the college was consistently over-subscribed for the whole time that I was there. It's just that the powers-that-be in the C-of-E imposed financial sancations on the college for every ordinand over it's maximum quota of 70 that it accepted.

Therefore, in order to recoup the financial loss caused by this artificial constraint, the college found it necessary to take on more independently funded and often non-Anglican students. This in turn had a somewhat negative impact upon Wycliffe's identity as a distinctly Anglican theological college.

So, on that score the church has only got itself to blame. If it hadn't been concerned with artificially limiting the number of evangelical ordinands Wycliffe would never have embarked on a massive plan of expansion and development that in my opinion was always in danger of taking it beyond it's original purpose as an Anglican Theological College for the training of Anglican ministers.

At the time many of the students, and particularly the Anglican Ordinands, felt that their needs, both pastorally and in terms of training for ministry, were being neglected in favour of this ambitious plan for archtectural expansion and international recognition and prestige.

Consequently, I must say that the departure of Graham Tomlin to HTBs new enterprise in theological training closely followed by Alister McGrath's departure struck me as most odd considering that together has been the driving force of that project.

Now, if I was an incoming principle I would have mothballed the expansion plans and got back to training Anglican ministers within a distinctly evangelical tradition. Could this be what Turnbull has done?

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
and in the first 2 years of a new leader that is not an unusual turnover of staff at all; in fact, I'd almost expect more.

It seems to show that church organisations are bad at handling a change over of leadership. In this case the appointment of an non academic principal and now vice principal is at least very odd. In this situation you may well be correct it is quite normal for people to leave when the new leadership is inappropriate.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Leprechaun

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quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:


I guess it will become a second oak hill. I think thats sad as I think what it had was excellent, but things do change.

Emma, you know the situation better than me, but I have to say from even the highly pejorative Guardian news coverage and the discussion on this thread, that seems like a distinctly unlikely outcome to me. Turbull's appointments, as I have said already, hardly seem unbalanced. I mean, seriously, even from what I have read about the Donaldson bloke on this thread I can hardly see Oak Hill appointing him!
And this is from someone who, as a conservative non-Anglican, would not see more colleges like Oak Hill as a particularly bad thing.

ETA:Nightlamp, I guess you are entitled to read the situation that way. But IME of working for Christian organisations, a change at the helm tends to make many staff realise that their loyalty was actually to the previous individual and their way of doing things, rather than the institution. I don't think that's particularly unusual or a reason for the whole C of E to throw its hands up in horror at Wycliffe. But YMMV.

[ 19. May 2007, 21:43: Message edited by: Leprechaun ]

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Emma Louise

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I really dont know the situation any better - My involvement left 7 years ago!!! Im really only going on posts on the ship and the article in the church times - which I do realise could be way off.

I think my beef with it becoming "oak hill" like is that that is one narrow band of evangelical - which Im sure oak hill does rather well. I rather liked that Wycliffe was a mix of different types - exposing people to differing styles of church rather than just one way of doing things, yet still remaining evangelical. I wonder if the HTB having its own theological school meant less going to wycliffe from HTB/HTB style churches? ALthough that would only really affect the student balance if anything.

Anyway - just wanted to say I really dont know - Im very much "thinking aloud" on the thread.

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Johnny S
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quote:
Originally posted by Emma.:
I wonder if the HTB having its own theological school meant less going to wycliffe from HTB/HTB style churches? ALthough that would only really affect the student balance if anything.

Now that IS a very interesting observation. Has The Guardian run a story on an Anglican church setting up its own training? What is the difference between trying to turn an Anglican theological college down your own 'narrow stream' and setting one up yourself from scratch? I'm not necessarily against HTB doing this but at least Wycliffe is paying lip service to the Anglican communion.

I'm not an Anglican so I may have got this totally wrong. I'd be interested in how other Anglicans view this.

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Arrietty

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As far as I can see, the St Paul's Theological Centre (the HTB place) is working within the system - I think they are helping to set up training for 'pioneer' ministry, which is a new label that the C of E has just created for ministry which does not take place in the conventional church setting, and they have some pretty mainstream staff and associate staff - including Jane Williams (wife of Rowan).

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FreeJack
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St Paul's also have Alister McGrath's wife on board as well!

What Holy Trinity Brompton have done has been approved by the Bishop of London, Ministry Division at Church House, and in collaboration with Ridley Hall, Cambridge.

Ridley may become the new Wycliffe.

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Emma Louise

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looking at their mix of staff and the rather intersting MA in pastoral theology ... if I ever got a chance I think it would be my first choice...


(gah I cant believe it - another Oxford grad thinking of punting from The Wrong End...)

(eta refering to ridley there!)

[ 20. May 2007, 00:40: Message edited by: Emma. ]

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Nightlamp
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I found this blog interesting.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
and in the first 2 years of a new leader that is not an unusual turnover of staff at all; in fact, I'd almost expect more.

It seems to show that church organisations are bad at handling a change over of leadership. *snip*
I second Nightlamp on this. I have considerable experience of NGOs, Anglican church stuff, and the bureaucracy, and a 25% turnover of a staff that size is a clear sign of mismanagement and an inability to bring staff on to a change of direction. In NGOs, I have seen similar situations cause the board to become very involved with examining the situation and the behaviour of the new head (unless, of course, the board brought the new head in with the intent of doing just that- "renewing the organization" "building a new team to make the Vision real" etc); and in the bureaucracy, Directors General (equivalent of archdeacons!) and Assistant Deputy Ministers (=suffragan or area bishop) pull the new chief in for a Chat, or have them Assisted by a Designated Mentor. Indeed, I know of bureaucratic situations where such rates of staff change resulted in the removal of the new chief responsible for the turnover.
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