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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
I think that contribution and input from the Wider Church™ (here meaning Anglicanism) is invaluable and quite possibly the only thing in this particular instance that stands between Wycliffe and its resiling into an evangelical "Bless me" and "Lord, I thank thee that I am not like those pernicious liberals/Anglo-Catholics/MotR-churchmen with whom I have the misfortune of being denominationally associated" ghetto.
[Where did Pyx_e's intersposed post go? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) ]
[ 18. October 2007, 11:34: Message edited by: Matt Black ]
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
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Scribehunter
Shipmate
# 12750
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
I gather than Andy Angel has withdrawn and that Wycliffe are advertising again for a New Testament Lecturer.
Are you able to give a source for this? He was not due to take up his post until the beginning of December - so if he did feel he wanted to withdraw it would be logical to do it at this point, especially if his SEITE post is still open to him.
No obvious source no. Two NT scholars told me about Wyliffe advertising the NT vacancy again (but I haven't seen the ad yet). SEITE had earlier withdrawn their plan to replace Andy Angel. I admit to adding two and two together. Perhaps I made five. Perhaps I made four. You be the judge.
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Richard C, please expand that line of thinking. I am unsure how to respond as I am unsure of what you are trying to say.
However I would want to point out that the use of reason and tradition are valued in the general Anglican view. While we value Our Lord's input into all these areas it is I think fair to say that He also expects us to use Common Sense and to learn from previous mistakes.
It is also disingenuous to suggest there is no political agenda at work. The trick seems to be one in which we are open to the Spirit of God while working in community.
P
Sorry Pyx_e, I wasn't responding to your goodself rather to the 'mindset' that inspires people to justify political action (which usually rides roughshod over others) all in the name of promoting Christianity or 'protecting the church'.
Of course Christ works incarnationally through his people, but I feel all too often some start with a 'vision of the Kingdom' and then seek to shape the church to fit that vision, rather than allowing the church itself to shape our vision of the Kingdom.
I'll shut up now.
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
...
Of course Christ works incarnationally through his people, but I feel all too often some start with a 'vision of the Kingdom' and then seek to shape the church to fit that vision, rather than allowing the church itself to shape our vision of the Kingdom.
I'll shut up now.
Take out the word "church" and substitute the word "God" ... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
I'm constantly amazed at the 'everyone will have to fit in with me' worldview that seems to be held by some ordinands, all I can say is they're in for a terrible shock when they become curates.
I agree completely.
But pity more the parishes that have such curates (and eventually vicars) thrust upon them. You can't be involved in the world of the C of E for very long before coming across countless examples of priests (from all traditions) who have caused endless disruption in parishes because of this kind of mentality.
Some curates - the lucky ones - have this knocked out of them in their training parish. But far too few.
And here is where it comes back again to WH. If the ordinands there are being shown by the principal and vice-principal a model of ministry that basically says "my way or the high way", they are likely to perpetuate such thinking in their own ministries. Those with a 'everyone will have to fit in with me' worldview will happily continue in such thinking because they see it in the senior staff at the college.
Residential colleges are - we are told - about "ministerial formation". In other words, it isn't just about "being trained" in the practicalities of ordained ministry, but about having your life formed and shaped to become a minister in Christ's church. And - as any parent knows only too well - such formation happens mainly through what the child/student sees in the lives of their parents/mentors, rather than through what they are formally taught.
(Tangent alert! Am I the only one to have been somewhat troubled by people like Custard with their rather limited views on what ordination training is all about? Is it really just about "training people to evangelise and preach the Bible"?)
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
(Tangent alert! Am I the only one to have been somewhat troubled by people like Custard with their rather limited views on what ordination training is all about? Is it really just about "training people to evangelise and preach the Bible"?)
Oi! I was quoting someone else when I said that, and it's not my view, though I do of course think that preaching the Bible is central to the task of church leadership (evangelism often being done better by the person in the pew than the preacher in the pulpit).
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Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
Well spotted - no ordination training is about more than that. See the published works of M Div.
The view of the ordained minister as primarily / exclisively a Bible teacher is essentially Puritan - and the C of E historically has declined to become Puritan.
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
No, it's not just about training people to evangelise and preach the bible but I will say this: there shouldn't be any parish presbyters in the Church of England for whom these are not top ministerial priorities.
Wycliffe, even before Turnbull's time, definitely placed the emphasis on these as key to the ministerial role; as would any evangelical college worth it's name would do.
As does the ordinal incidentally. Presidency at the eucharist is the 15th imperative of the episcopal declaration at ordination; proclaming the word of the Lord is first, evangelism is fifth. Even Anglican liturgy favours the evangelical understanding of Holy Orders.
[Cross Post! Reply to Oscar the Grouch]
[ 18. October 2007, 12:48: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Magistra
Apprentice
# 13066
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Posted
What bothers me is the emphasis on evangelism as church planting at the new Wycliffe. I've seen the HTB model of church plant, which, rather than seeking to serve and renew existing communities or build up a community from scratch in virgin territory, involves transplanting a section of the mother church to exactly replicate its culture and liturgical practices - often in places where there is already a modest but long-standing Anglican presence. I haven't seen a conservative church plant in action, can anyone reassure me that they are done more sensitively?
Posts: 37 | From: Oxford | Registered: Oct 2007
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Birdseye
I can see my house from here!
# 5280
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Posted
(aside) When I hear the phrase 'church planting' why do I so often think of seed scattered on thin soil, springing up and then shrivelling. I think there are quite a lot of jolly good churches that just need a bit of thoughtful pruning and a hefty dose of BabyBio, rather than simply a cluster of jolly green seedlings scattered round their gnarled old roots.(aside over- back to the muck-raking ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) )
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Life is what happens whilst you're busy making other plans.
a birdseye view
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Birdseye:
(aside) When I hear the phrase 'church planting' why do I so often think of seed scattered on thin soil, springing up and then shrivelling. I think there are quite a lot of jolly good churches that just need a bit of thoughtful pruning and a hefty dose of BabyBio, rather than simply a cluster of jolly green seedlings scattered round their gnarled old roots.(aside over- back to the muck-raking )
Amen. ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
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Low Treason
Shipmate
# 11924
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magistra:
What bothers me is the emphasis on evangelism as church planting at the new Wycliffe. I've seen the HTB model of church plant, which, rather than seeking to serve and renew existing communities or build up a community from scratch in virgin territory, involves transplanting a section of the mother church to exactly replicate its culture and liturgical practices - often in places where there is already a modest but long-standing Anglican presence. I haven't seen a conservative church plant in action, can anyone reassure me that they are done more sensitively?
I would have to agree with you, Magistra. To be fair, the few plants I have encountered have been into places that were moribund or/and highly disfunctional and so the alternative was being put them quietly out of their misery. Nontheless, the effect has been as you suggest.
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He brought me to the banqueting house, and His banner over me was love.
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magistra:
What bothers me is the emphasis on evangelism as church planting at the new Wycliffe. I've seen the HTB model of church plant, which, rather than seeking to serve and renew existing communities or build up a community from scratch in virgin territory, involves transplanting a section of the mother church to exactly replicate its culture and liturgical practices - often in places where there is already a modest but long-standing Anglican presence. I haven't seen a conservative church plant in action, can anyone reassure me that they are done more sensitively?
The problem is that neo-conservative ex-emergents in the States are eating whole cities (e.g. Seattle) with church planting strategies on a mammoth scale. I imagine that this model of Genevan hegemony will appeal to certain people who identify with what is being dubbed as Resurgent New Calvinism. I have to admit to a slight penchant for it myself, but that's probably the Puritanical control freak in me.
[ 18. October 2007, 14:40: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magistra:
What bothers me is the emphasis on evangelism as church planting at the new Wycliffe. I've seen the HTB model of church plant, which, rather than seeking to serve and renew existing communities or build up a community from scratch in virgin territory, involves transplanting a section of the mother church to exactly replicate its culture and liturgical practices - often in places where there is already a modest but long-standing Anglican presence. I haven't seen a conservative church plant in action, can anyone reassure me that they are done more sensitively?
I have good knowledge and information about a couple of churches revived/revised by HTB. They have definitely become part of the local community, haven't grown enormous, and have good reports from locals, who aren't necessarily of the same culture or education or wealth as some associate with HTB.
Maybe people only criticise the ones they have problems with, or just don't like, instead of taking note of others which may be obviously positive.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
I was... responding to ... the 'mindset' that inspires people to justify political action (which usually rides roughshod over others) all in the name of promoting Christianity or 'protecting the church'.
Of course Christ works incarnationally through his people, but I feel all too often some start with a 'vision of the Kingdom' and then seek to shape the church to fit that vision, rather than allowing the church itself to shape our vision of the Kingdom.
Indeed, except what this kind of people usually fail to notice is that if they are harming people, they are also harming the church.
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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine
Posts: 1090 | From: En lieu sûr | Registered: Dec 2002
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gracie:
Indeed, except what this kind of people usually fail to notice is that if they are harming people, they are also harming the church.
Yes, and more than just the church....
'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me '.
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
No, it's not just about training people to evangelise and preach the bible but I will say this: there shouldn't be any parish presbyters in the Church of England for whom these are not top ministerial priorities.
Wycliffe, even before Turnbull's time, definitely placed the emphasis on these as key to the ministerial role; as would any evangelical college worth it's name would do.
As does the ordinal incidentally. Presidency at the eucharist is the 15th imperative of the episcopal declaration at ordination; proclaming the word of the Lord is first, evangelism is fifth. Even Anglican liturgy favours the evangelical understanding of Holy Orders.
[Cross Post! Reply to Oscar the Grouch]
Just to say that I've started a new thread for this tangent. I disagree with Numpty's counting at the very least!
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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The Bede's American Successor
Curmudgeon-in-Training
# 5042
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
The problem is that neo-conservative ex-emergents in the States are eating whole cities (e.g. Seattle) with church planting strategies on a mammoth scale. I imagine that this model of Genevan hegemony will appeal to certain people who identify with what is being dubbed as Resurgent New Calvinism. I have to admit to a slight penchant for it myself, but that's probably the Puritanical control freak in me.
Speaking up from the Pacific Northwest:
How many of you saw the movie Tommy (the Who rock opera)? What you see in Seattle is a certain population running off for the latest pinball game, but then getting bored and saying "We aren't going to take it."
For example, 10-15 years ago the "example of success" around here was Overlake Christian Church in Redmond. At their peak they had 4,000+ people at services on a Sunday. Today they have about 3,000.
While 3,000 still makes Overlake the largest congregation in the area and a major force around here, they have lost over 25% of their congregants. There has been some reorganization around there to stop the decline.
The latest "success story" is Mars Hill in Seattle. Property prices and availability in Seattle has forced them to go with a satellite model (create other locations around the place). Even so, Driscoll may have already had his zenith. Church of the Apostles (joint ELCA/TEC mission) in Freemont has a growing number of Mars Hills defectors. Even where I go, St. Dunstan's Church of the Highlands Parish (joking referred to by me as Church of the Pink Poodle™ for a Christmas nativity play prop) has picked up 3 twenty-something folk this fall.
The "neo-conservative ex-emergents" have a limited shelf life around here. They last until people want a new thrill—or until congregants decide the "thrill a Sunday" way isn't sustainable and start seeking established models. The good thing for us in the Diocese of Olympia is that we have a new bishop that wants to be there to provide a home for those who are looking for something more than a "thrill a Sunday" approach.
If you think I am missing something, check out the church attendance rates for the Seattle area. In spite of Overlake Christian, Washington Cathedral, Casey Treat (Christian Faith Center), and Mark Driscoll (Mars Hill), the percentages still aren't changing. Their strategies aren't working over the long haul.
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This was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride of wealth and food in plenty, comfort and ease, and yet she never helped the poor and the wretched.
—Ezekiel 16.49
Posts: 6079 | From: The banks of Possession Sound | Registered: Oct 2003
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magistra:
I've seen the HTB model of church plant, which, rather than seeking to serve and renew existing communities or build up a community from scratch in virgin territory, involves transplanting a section of the mother church to exactly replicate its culture and liturgical practices - often in places where there is already a modest but long-standing Anglican presence.
Could you like to substantiate that claim with evidence please?
As someone who has been involved in something similar, I would say that the planting church made every effort to serve, renew and build, and to get the maximum possible level of support from parish, deanery and diocese. In general the existing level of long-standing Anglicans is too 'modest'. In some cases (but not all) there is clearly a significant change in churchmanship, or the addition of a new, but not all.
It doesn't always work, and it isn't always done right, but I would say that is a minority experience.
I would say it the conservative evangelical churches not HTB/charismatics who are more likely to 'break the rules'.
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
The Bede's AS,
Very, very interesting.
A while ago I was part of Newfrontiers, a UK originated 'restorationist' charismatic evangelical group of churches, whose leader (Terry Virgo) is rather impressed with Mr. Driscoll, and whose bloggers (there are quite a few of them) like the Mars Hill approach.
What you've said confirms my suspicion that:
a) The UK independant (as opposed to our Anglican) evangelical scene takes a lot of it's impetus from the States
b) This approach is essentially 'fruitless' in terms of quantitative and qualitative growth
In fact I was part of my NFI church for 3 years, and it's been 3 years since I left them, and the number they get on a Sunday hasn't really changed much in that time, despite endless preaching/teaching/indoctrination of evangelism, church growth and 'outreach'. In fact the composition has changed such that they actually LOST more of the 'thinkers' and 'tithers' and gained more of the transient 'youth' population.
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
Re the impact of different kinds of church. The data is a number of years old and Canadian, so may not translate across the board...but: thorough polling by a reputable firm which does this kind of thing on a cyclical basis discovered that practically no-one starts coming to church as an adult without having attended church or a religious school as a child. The church they start attending as an adult is not necessarily connected at all to the one they attended as a child. But all the fireworks and all the signs and miracles -- and all the Latin Tridentine masses and everything in between -- by and large only result in a stirring of the pot.
Seems to me the task should be to add to what's in the pot, and by themselves none of these things do.
What Wycliffe wants to produce is certainly intended to bring in the unchurched -- and in Engalnd, there are a lot of unchurched who may have some vague folk memory (most of the people who come in through Alpha I'd bet are like that) -- which is very different from here. But I doubt that in and of itself it will be any more successful in bringing in real converts than it has been anywhere else.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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innocent(ish)
Shipmate
# 12691
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Posted
I have (limited) experience of both, an HTB plant which was moved into a (nearly) redundant church and was made welcome with open arms, and a plant out of StAG in Cambridge which on the whole was similarly appreciated. The Cambridge plant has gone on to plant again, and has gone out of its way to ensure it doesn't tread on any toes.
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"Christianity has become part of the furniture ... like a grand piano nobody plays any longer.I want the dust to be taken off and people to play music." Archbishop John Sentamu
Posts: 109 | From: Rochester | Registered: Jun 2007
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
I have to say that the HTB 'planting into existing churches' model does appear to pay quite a lot of attention to the existing congregation.
With care taken at the beginning, I don't see why a small congregation with a run down church shouldn't get quite excited about HTB investing people and resources in the mission of the church in their area.
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
Wycliffe has also over the last year entered into a partnership with CMS and Regents' Park to employ Cathy Ross as tutor in Mission. Both of those organisations are to the liberal side of Wycliffe, and I don't hear any objections about that.
To go back a bit, Regents' and CMS aren't comparable to the Latimer Trust. CMS tries to represent the full range of Anglicanism. Regents is a non-Anglican institution that has always co-operated with evangelicals (they're baptist after all). Neither has an burning ambition to liberalise the C of E. The Latimer Trust on the other hand have a specific agenda to shift the C of E to the right (anti-ordination of women etc). They wouldn't be giving money to Wycliffe if they didn't think that the college had a part to play in the agenda.
PS I actually agree with Numpty on preaching
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
I've started a thread on the important of preaching in Purg as it seems to keep coming up here
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Magistra
Apprentice
# 13066
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Posted
quote:
Could you like to substantiate that claim with evidence please?
I don't think it's any secret that HTB's policy is to export a hundred or so members of its own congregation to struggling parishes for a year. It also puts in place its own clergy to run HTB-model pastorates and Alpha courses, and worship leaders who introduce a very particular musical style which is specific to charismatic youth culture. These are extremely idiosyncratic practices within global Anglicanism.
I'm glad to hear that some such plants have been well-received in their communities, and I admit that my understanding of how these projects work is limited. I'd be interested to know, for example, what proportion of the 'new' congregation one year on is drawn from the original transplant of bodies, then from other local churches, and finally from the unchurched community itself. I also confess to being allergic to a middle-class cultural imperialism, and this undoubtedly colours my response to the HTB phenomenon. So I hold my hands up and apologise for the real prejudice I bring to this discussion.
You say that "In some cases (but not all) there is clearly a significant change in churchmanship, or the addition of a new, but not all." What are the exceptions?
quote:
I would say it the conservative evangelical churches not HTB/charismatics who are more likely to 'break the rules'.
" Would you, in the same way, like to offer any evidence for this assertion?
[code]
[ 19. October 2007, 18:23: Message edited by: John Holding ]
Posts: 37 | From: Oxford | Registered: Oct 2007
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Raspberry Rabbit
Will preach for food
# 3080
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Posted
quote:
CMS tries to represent the full range of Anglicanism
There's something I didn't know and would hesitate to take for granted.
RR
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...naked pirates not respecting boundaries...
(((BLOG)))
Posts: 2215 | From: In the middle of France | Registered: Jul 2002
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Low Treason
Shipmate
# 11924
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
I have to say that the HTB 'planting into existing churches' model does appear to pay quite a lot of attention to the existing congregation.
With care taken at the beginning, I don't see why a small congregation with a run down church shouldn't get quite excited about HTB investing people and resources in the mission of the church in their area.
I have no information about plants outside London, but the evidence available does show that rather than being a welcome infusion of new life into an existing parish, an HTB plant really means taking over the church building lock stock and barrel.
One such parish (mentioned on another thread) was a small MOTR congregation with a large Grade I listed building needing a vast amount of repair which they could not finance. The plant financed the necessary repairs but AFAIK all the original congregation have long since departed and it is in every respect an HTB clone.
Another more recent one I have been told about by a friend whose daughter is a member of the plant. She attended the 'planting ceremony' and was told by members of the original congregation that they were deeply unhappy about the situation. I have heard suggestions that this is the case with other plants, however, anecdotal evidence only.
What does seem plain, is that all the plants are now of HTB-type evo churchmanship whatever the earlier tradition. (Evidenced by the info available on the websites)
I have to say, that in a place like London I don't have a problem with this - after all there are plenty of churches of all traditions available to anyone dispossessed, but I do think there that to suggest a plant is going to 'help' an existing, ailing congregation is rather ingenuous.
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He brought me to the banqueting house, and His banner over me was love.
Posts: 1914 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
I have to say that the HTB 'planting into existing churches' model does appear to pay quite a lot of attention to the existing congregation.
With care taken at the beginning, I don't see why a small congregation with a run down church shouldn't get quite excited about HTB investing people and resources in the mission of the church in their area.
We have a small congregation, and financial struggles, but I'd be very sad if a bunch of people from the nearby charismatic evangelical parish came in and started 'helping' us by replacing our liberal Anglo-Catholic worship with guitars and 30 minute sermons. If we wanted that, we'd go to them.
Myduck's evidence appears to be that that is what eventually happens.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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badman
Shipmate
# 9634
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Posted
I have experience of one local plant by HTB and of another local church which may have been a plant but which, at any rate, used identical methods: a ready made mini congregation imported wholesale from elsewhere, with informal worship styles, evangelical theology, and lots of money to spend on repairing a crumbling church building and setting up modern spaces for nursery school, refreshments, meeting spaces etc within it.
This sort of thing isn't my cup of tea. But, in both cases, the plant was into a church which was, in one case, moribund and, in the other case, actually closed. One of them had been a middle-of-the-road ageing congregation merged with a neighbouring parish due to lack of numbers and the other, which had been a very spiky Anglo Catholic outfit, had been empty for a few years.
Without the new blood, both churches would simply have been sold off and turned into flats, as other churches have been in my part of west London.
So the plants were certainly a good thing, and I'm grateful to them for saving a couple of churches that otherwise wouldn't be churches at all.
Posts: 429 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Jun 2005
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
# 45
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Posted
On anecdotal evidence from people I know who've lived through it, this hasn't happened - it's more that additional services are added and there's a gradual integration of people from those into the existing worship rather than a takeover.
I was at Coventry Cathedral when the ex-HTB charismatic-evangelical new Dean arrived, to great mutterings about how he would be turfing out the old congregation and imposing new styles of worship.
What actually happened is that he left the existing services alone, started a new charismatic service at 6.30 pm, appointed a youth worker from the charismatic end of things who I recently heard at Diocesan Synod talking about how his Goth group turned their noses up at Alpha and celebrate Compline every week, etc etc. The outcome is that there are a lot more people from diverse backgrounds at the main worship services who have been brought in from the new services, but the traditional style for the main services has remained untouched.
I've had dealings with HTB in prison ministry, I was very suspicious of the image but I have to speak as I find and say that they were very helpful and committed to supporting local work in prisons.
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Magistra
Apprentice
# 13066
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Posted
This is reassuring: thanks Badman and Arrietty. I still find it an odd sort of mission strategy, and hope it won't influence models of church planting outside of London.
Posts: 37 | From: Oxford | Registered: Oct 2007
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
One of our fairly local churches (may be one badman mentions) was closed down, empty. The building was needing refurbishing. The previous vicar had not managed to keep the church going, even though there was a "church pub" inside. The congregation had shrunk to nothing almost, most having left, although they'd belonged there for generations.
I think HTB got about 30+ people to become formally members of that church, and HTB sent a vicar; HTB supported the congregation, the vicar, the mending the building. It's kind of had to struggle to keep going and keep growing, but it's more and more definitely a local community church, with "non-religious" care groups that meet there - like elderly exercise days
They have also been connecting with other local churches, supporting them and being supported by them.
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London
Flickr fotos
Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magistra:
I also confess to being allergic to a middle-class cultural imperialism, and this undoubtedly colours my response to the HTB phenomenon.
The only HTB plant I've ever been to a service at (and it was only twice) was noticeably both less middle-class and more black than the catholic Anglican church I visited in an adjacent parish.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271
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Posted
I was part of an interesting discussion at a London diocese induction event last week (which is, obviously, where HTB plants are with a couple of exceptions) at which church planting policy was mentioned, in relation to parish contributions to the common fund. The basic idea was that, because London is so well endowed with churches, if a congregation is dying or dead, there is likely to be a church within a tiny distance of similar style, hence potential for a plant without preventing people from worshipping in their accustomed way. Obviously it is still sad and there are plenty of areas where such a policy would not work. But in the circumstances I find it hard to see what's so disastrous about a bunch of keen people turning up with a few quid to repair the church, and running alpha courses and social action projects, just because they like less formal worship than the previous bunch. Tut tut. The same would apply in reverse: if there was a dying evangelical church and a thriving anglo-catholic place which was full to the brim, why not let the ACs plant? No one side need have the monopoly if this is a strategy for reaching people and communities, not empire-building. Doubtless there are plenty of empire builders around, but I don't think either group has the monopoly on them either.
(Sorry this is off-topic... should we start another thread?)
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postpostevangelical
http://www.stmellitus.org/
Posts: 2126 | From: North and South Kensington | Registered: Feb 2002
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magistra:
I don't think it's any secret that HTB's policy is to export a hundred or so members of its own congregation to struggling parishes for a year.
True, but less monotone than that. But it is surely different if the existing congregation requests their support with the support of the diocesan or deanery officials?
quote:
It also puts in place its own clergy to run HTB-model pastorates and Alpha courses, and worship leaders who introduce a very particular musical style which is specific to charismatic youth culture. These are extremely idiosyncratic practices within global Anglicanism.
Global Anglicanism is so idiosyncratic that it is probably idiosyncratic not to be idiosyncratic.
quote:
You say that "In some cases (but not all) there is clearly a significant change in churchmanship, or the addition of a new, but not all." What are the exceptions?
In London:
St George the Martyr, Holborn. A small charismatic evangelical church, with long-standing evangelical patronage, had a few problems - long-delayed building refurbishment, previous Rector's wife tragically died of cancer etc. HTB curate was appointed as Priest-in-Charge (which could have happened anyway) and brought 100 or so HTB worshippers. Existing congregation stayed, because no change in style.
Also smaller temporary groups have gone to other evangelical churches. I think St Gabriel's Cricklewood and St Luke's Earls Court have too.
- I would say it the conservative evangelical churches not HTB/charismatics who are more likely to 'break the rules'
quote:
Would you, in the same way, like to offer any evidence for this assertion?
The Southwark/CESA Co-Mission ordinations and plants?
[ 19. October 2007, 23:13: Message edited by: FreeJack ]
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Gracie
Shipmate
# 3870
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
quote:
Originally posted by Gracie:
Indeed, except what this kind of people usually fail to notice is that if they are harming people, they are also harming the church.
Yes, and more than just the church....
'Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me '.
It's taken me two days to actually understand what you meant here! Thank you for that insight.
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When someone is convinced he’s an Old Testament prophet there’s not a lot you can do with him rationally. - Sine
Posts: 1090 | From: En lieu sûr | Registered: Dec 2002
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Cadfael
Shipmate
# 11066
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Posted
I note that one of Oxford's PPHs is to close...
...it's Greyfriars.
Not, apparently, bacause of the recent report, but rather because of a lack of friars.
It was intriguing to note that the students currently installed at Greyfriars are to relocate to Regent's. Interesting choice...
Posts: 576 | From: North by North West | Registered: Feb 2006
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
Well spotted - no ordination training is about more than that. See the published works of M Div.
The view of the ordained minister as primarily / exclisively a Bible teacher is essentially Puritan - and the C of E historically has declined to become Puritan.
May I point out the is a false caricaturisation of Puritan Ministry. The prime concern of many Puritan Divines was that a proper church order should be kept and text for much of their role was Richard Baxter's The Reformed Pastor.
Evangelisation is not strong within true Puritanism, the community of the elect though is another matter.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
The reason Andy Angel isn't coming to Wycliffe is found apparently here quote:
he and his family had great difficulties in finding appropriate housing in Oxford and appropriate school places for the children. These were his stated reasons for having to make the decision not to take up his post at Wycliffe
I can't beleive the bit about schools. I can see there may be problems in finding housing but it doesn't quite ring true.
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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Komensky
Shipmate
# 8675
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Magistra:
quote:
Could you like to substantiate that claim with evidence please?
[snip] I also confess to being allergic to a middle-class cultural imperialism, and this undoubtedly colours my response to the HTB phenomenon. So I hold my hands up and [big snip!]
Oh, you'll fit right in at HTB!
With mild apologies for injecting levity,
K.
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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw
Posts: 1784 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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Cadfael
Shipmate
# 11066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
The reason Andy Angel isn't coming to Wycliffe is found apparently here quote:
he and his family had great difficulties in finding appropriate housing in Oxford and appropriate school places for the children. These were his stated reasons for having to make the decision not to take up his post at Wycliffe
I can't beleive the bit about schools. I can see there may be problems in finding housing but it doesn't quite ring true.
...hmmm, yes that does have the ring of an appropriate reason, doesn't it. However, these are usually difficult things to sort out when moving jobs anywhere, but one is usually prepared to work through them if the position is attractive...
Isn't the inspection of Wycliffe due sometime soon now?
Posts: 576 | From: North by North West | Registered: Feb 2006
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
The reason Andy Angel isn't coming to Wycliffe is found apparently here quote:
he and his family had great difficulties in finding appropriate housing in Oxford and appropriate school places for the children. These were his stated reasons for having to make the decision not to take up his post at Wycliffe
I can't beleive the bit about schools. I can see there may be problems in finding housing but it doesn't quite ring true.
That's the trouble with Oxford. Not enough middle class people with an interest in education. So inevitably the schools will be bad. Oh, wait...
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
Clarification on Andy Angel point - I have no idea whether that is the real reason or an appropriate reason, but a couple of facts might help.
At the start of term, he said in college that he intended to start full time in December. He is doing some teaching in college this term.
And some of the students here (or their other halves) are homeschooling their kids in the short term because there's a shortage of school places.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
It was announced in Wycliffe this morning that the Goddards are taking out a grievance and that Elaine Storkey is taking her case to a tribunal.
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Nightlamp
Shipmate
# 266
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Posted
Well that will mean that this thread will certainly grow a little!
I am not certain what taking out a grievance is, I assume it is some kind of internal process.
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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp
Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
Now will it actually go to an Employment Tribunal, or is that just a negotiating tactic to get more compensation?
Unless she is also alleging sex discrimination then the most she could get is about £60k, so would probably settle for £50k and no legal costs. The college would probably cough up to avoid the disclosure. If it goes to ET, then everything comes out, +Jones's "private" emails to the Principal, etc. etc.
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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innocent(ish)
Shipmate
# 12691
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Posted
according to direct.gov
quote:
When to use a grievance procedure
Problems you might want to raise with your employer could involve:
- your terms of employment
- pay and working conditions
- disagreements with co-workers
- discrimination
- not getting your statutory employment rights
A grievance procedure is one of the ways to resolve a problem at work. However, you might try talking with your employer informally before using the formal grievance procedure, to see if that helps.
Much of what has happened seems to be a little late for this to apply.
*cross post with FreeJack*
[ 08. November 2007, 19:28: Message edited by: innocent(ish) ]
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"Christianity has become part of the furniture ... like a grand piano nobody plays any longer.I want the dust to be taken off and people to play music." Archbishop John Sentamu
Posts: 109 | From: Rochester | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
Now will it actually go to an Employment Tribunal, or is that just a negotiating tactic to get more compensation?
Unless she is also alleging sex discrimination then the most she could get is about £60k, so would probably settle for £50k and no legal costs. The college would probably cough up to avoid the disclosure. If it goes to ET, then everything comes out, +Jones's "private" emails to the Principal, etc. etc.
TBF, it may be less about the compensation and more to do with the fact she feels she's been shafted and has a good case.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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