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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
Arrietty

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# 45

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That's entirely up to you to assess, Doulos. There's a lot of information about Wycliffe in the public domain, but that isn't to say there aren't skeletons in other people's cupboards as well.

There are people here who speak highly of it so I suppose you could work out how much like them you want to sound when you come out of the other end of the process. [Biased]

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i-church

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Emma Louise

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# 3571

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quote:
Originally posted by Doulos:
So the question is - my question, anyway - for a would-be ordinand such as myself, is Wycliffe off the menu for the time being? Is it somewhere people can learn and grow etc etc (esp. if, like myself, they don't fit the Con-Evo mould)?

I'd be tempted to visit a few places and see what you think. Thinking about ordination crosses my radar every now and then, and having been at Wycliffe before I always thought I would go back. I tend to think of myself as open-evo (in c of e circles anyway) and its *definately* off my radar now.
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Barnabas62
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quote:
Originally posted by Doulos:
So the question is - my question, anyway - for a would-be ordinand such as myself, is Wycliffe off the menu for the time being? Is it somewhere people can learn and grow etc etc (esp. if, like myself, they don't fit the Con-Evo mould)?

Wycliffe on or off the menu? Forget about the dispute, and if you haven't seen it, watch this video. Then ask a simple question. Would I be comfortable attending a college at which Richard Turnbull is the Principal?

On the basis of the views expressed, many would be, but if you don't fit the conevo mould, it might be a good idea to listen and see what comfort/discomfort it provokes in you. Personally I think it is pretty revealing of his mindset. Useful thing to know. Any Principal is likely to set the tone for a college.

Alternatives. If I were a would be ordinand, I would talk the options over with my pastor, (vicar, priest, spiritual adviser) first of all. If they know you well enough they may already have ideas about a good fit - at least they might be able to identify a few options and help you navigate through the choosing process.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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FreeJack
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# 10612

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Also bear in mind that Wycliffe Hall is part of the wider Oxford University, which will set and mark the academic part of the course, certainly for the BA in Theology, which will be the same as for the other non-evangelical halls.
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Nightlamp
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I think any organisation that is going through the upheaval that Wycliffe has had is going to be a difficult place to be part of. There may well be advantages such learning from Wycliffe how not to manage a church, being part of Oxford, getting an oxford university qualification. Yet there could be major downsides such as the theology of the principal (and vice principal) the uncertainty of the staff. If I was thinking about Wycliffe I would wait until autumn 2009 before starting there. In my heart of hearts I recommend that you ignore Wycliffe and think about Ridley or Cramner hall or one of the other theological colleges.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Charles Read
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You may find that your bishop or DDO will noy allow you to go to WH.

And before anyone says 'sponsored candidates can train where they like' you may like to remember that bishops can withdraw sponsorship...

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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi

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Custard
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# 5402

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Come here for an open day / interview, talk to people, go elsewhere, talk to people there about their colleges, pray, see what you think.

I'm doing the Oxford BA at Wycliffe, and I still think I'm at the right place on the right course.

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Qupe
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Thanks for those responses; all good food for thought.

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The Centurion
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With regards to choosing a college a senior staff member of a certain open institution wisely advised me to carefully consider my impressions of the current students. He said that after 20 odd years in ministry he'd forgotten most of his lectures and even some of his lecturers but his relationships with some of his fellow students have sustained him throughout.

You can only get this kind of impression by visiting a college and spending time with the ordinands there.

FWIW I'm at WH and the friendships I've made have been a huge blessing and I'm sure will continue to be so.

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
In my heart of hearts I recommend that you ignore Wycliffe and think about Ridley or Cramner hall or one of the other theological colleges.

If you only have a limited amount of holiday then go to the minimal number of colleges (2/3) and avoid those that have problems or don't suit you. Friends and relationships can be built at any college.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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FreeJack
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# 10612

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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
You may find that your bishop or DDO will noy allow you to go to WH.

And before anyone says 'sponsored candidates can train where they like' you may like to remember that bishops can withdraw sponsorship...

Though any bishop or DDO who did that with an intelligent open/charismatic candidate who would otherwise be suitable for Wycliffe, is going to end up helping to turn WH into a more cons-evo college, which is what Turnbull and Reform want. A more entrenched 2+4 state of the world.
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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
Though any bishop or DDO who did that with an intelligent open/charismatic candidate who would otherwise be suitable for Wycliffe, is going to end up helping to turn WH into a more cons-evo college, which is what Turnbull and Reform want. A more entrenched 2+4 state of the world.

A Bishop/DDO is going to do what is best for the candidate/church not what seems to be best for the college. Who says that any hypothetical DDO/ bishop action wouldn't apply to conservative candidates?

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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FreeJack
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# 10612

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Well it depends on what the real objection of the bishop/DDO was. The sort of bishop/DDO that has a problem with Wycliffe Hall now is unlikely to be that keen on Oak Hill either, even though there are no current issues there to put off a candidate, except that it is largely male cons evo.

So will be interesting to see if more cons-evo candidates apply to the +4 colleges (Ridley Cambridge, Nottingham, Durham, Bristol).

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Arrietty

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# 45

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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
there are no current issues there to put off a candidate, except that it is largely male cons evo.

So nothing to put anyone off going there then. [Roll Eyes] [Disappointed]

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i-church

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
Well it depends on what the real objection of the bishop/DDO was.

I would imagine the concern would be around the fact the management of WH is really bad at bad press reports and the fact the management can't manage staff and this is going to affect the candidates formation.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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pete173
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Well, I just interviewed an excellent female ordinand from Wycliffe for ordination in 2008. Oddly, the students seem to have transcended all the stuff that's been going on. And she isn't in the slightest bit undermined in her calling to be a priest and a leader in the Church of God.

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Pete

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Nightlamp
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I can't see very many DDO's or bishops saying Don't go to wycliffe. I can see them saying; 'Do you know about the problems there? How about visiting these other colleges first.'

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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FreeJack
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quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
there are no current issues there to put off a candidate, except that it is largely male cons evo.

So nothing to put anyone off going there then. [Roll Eyes] [Disappointed]
Well it is off-putting if you're not male or cons-evo but they aren't exactly in the market for female liberal anglo-catholic ordinands. OH fought this battle several years ago, there's no news. Whereas it is a live issue at WH this year.
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Heavenly Anarchist
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Alan Storkey was made redundant during the changes at Oak Hill years ago, how sad for them to have to go through it twice.

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pete173
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And, just to prove that they've learned no lessons whatsoever, Wycliffe are now finding ways to contest the award made against them at the industrial tribunal, and refusing to pay up, thus giving m'learned friends a great deal more income. It makes you want to scream.

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Pete

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Martin60
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Oi, Nightlamp, have I told you (yes I know I have [Smile] ) how much I LOVE Belfast? I was there again last week. The people are BRILLIANT and I can't tell who's what. I could happily live there.

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Love wins

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Jaybee
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# 13611

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quote:
And, just to prove that they've learned no lessons whatsoever, Wycliffe are now finding ways to contest the award made against them at the industrial tribunal, and refusing to pay up, thus giving m'learned friends a great deal more income. It makes you want to scream.

But surely they have to pay? It can only be a matter of time. I heard that Andrew and Lis Goddard were also sacked two months ago, after being suspended since last summer. Yet, all year they have been on the Wycliffe web page as active current members of staff. Is this all part of the same unreality? Seems as if Turnbull can't face the implications?
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Fool on Hill
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quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
And, just to prove that they've learned no lessons whatsoever, Wycliffe are now finding ways to contest the award made against them at the industrial tribunal, and refusing to pay up, thus giving m'learned friends a great deal more income. It makes you want to scream.

Didn't they agree through their lawyers? Perhaps they need to read Matthew 5.37 and Romans 13 before quoting scripture at others.

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God appointed a worm that attacked the bush so that it withered.

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pete173
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It's the lawyers through whom they are attempting to negotiate this - which is why it's costing the college even more money.
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The Great Gumby

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# 10989

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quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
And, just to prove that they've learned no lessons whatsoever, Wycliffe are now finding ways to contest the award made against them at the industrial tribunal, and refusing to pay up, thus giving m'learned friends a great deal more income. It makes you want to scream.

Wow! Do you have any details about the grounds for their refusal to pay?

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Barnabas62
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I imagine they don't want the "religious discrimination" issue to come to court, pete173, and this is a negotiating tactic embracing both unfair dismissal and the wider issue. IME that's the way lawyers might think about this stuff. Go for a) as a softener-upper for b). Speculation of course; I think fairness went out of the window a long time ago. Which is the really sad thing.

Thought Elaine Storkey was very dignified at Synod. Any tactical attempts to put on the pressure seem to me to be likely to strengthen her resolve even further. But I suppose that is a simplicity which may not have occurred to others.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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FreeJack
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I'm now wondering if I have a vocation to the lawyerhood instead!
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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
It's the lawyers through whom they are attempting to negotiate this - which is why it's costing the college even more money.

As much as I have a vested interest in m'learned friends making yet more money, they only do as instructed. The college Council will have had to said a positive yes to this latest action.

But geez, even Al-Fayed knew when to call it a day. Turnbull (and by association +Jones) seems to believe that the only time to stop digging is when they reach the bottom...

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daisymay

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:

But geez, even Al-Fayed knew when to call it a day. Turnbull (and by association +Jones) seems to believe that the only time to stop digging is when they reach the bottom...

And arriving at the bottom is the place many addicts arrive at and begin giving up their whatever; what does it seem that they might be addicted to?

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FreeJack
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If they keep digging for long enough, won't they end up in Sydney?
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Jaybee
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quote:
As much as I have a vested interest in m'learned friends making yet more money, they only do as instructed. The college Council will have had to said a positive yes to this latest action.

But if the college council is true to its normal form, we all know who calls the shots. If they had been more involved it would surely never have got to this stage. It must be difficult for Elaine Storkey, but it can only be a matter of time (and money). M'own learned friend tells me that tribunals make judgments but usually leave the detailed bits of the settlement up the parties. When you have a party who is still trying to prove who's boss - the injured one sometimes has to go back and ask the judge for an Order.
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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Jaybee:
But if the college council is true to its normal form, we all know who calls the shots. If they had been more involved it would surely never have got to this stage.

So, calling a group of experienced lay Christians and clergy a bunch of spineless, supine, yellow-streaked cowards has to better than believing them all to be conniving, back-stabbing, deceitful sharks?

Hmm.

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Jaybee
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# 13611

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I take your point, Doc Tor, and it's not a pretty picture either way. Disgraceful actually.
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Arrietty

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Don't the Wycliffe Council have a legal responsibility to spend money only on things which further the work of the college? How do the enormous legal bills for not accepting their responsibilities as employers fit into that?

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i-church

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FreeJack
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You would have to ask the Charity Commission that question.
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Fool on Hill
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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
You would have to ask the Charity Commission that question.

For Christians, notions of stewardship and the idea that what we have we have as God's gift to us must surely also come into play?

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God appointed a worm that attacked the bush so that it withered.

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Jengie jon

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Uhm not when talking about legal responsibility.

Now Christian responsibility is something quite different.

Jengie

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Jaybee
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Something very odd is going on at the Wycliffe website. The newsletter mentions the Summer School 2008 in hyped terms, and invites online registration. But the registration line leads nowhere and the Summer School has disappeared completely from the site. So has it been cancelled because no-one wants to go?

Andrew and Lis Goddard also feature prominently on the site under staff, and in fact we are told:
quote:
'Lis is responsible for the organisation and supervision of weekly placements, which is a key place for students to reflect upon the interface between the academic theology they are doing and the ministry for which they are being prepared. She also teaches on Integrated Study Weeks, where much of the teaching is done on pastoral and missional practice. Lis has a Chaplaincy role within college, being available in a confidential capacity to all students, particularly to women and undergraduates.'

But I am told that neither Lis or Andrew have been available for anything, confidential or otherwise since they have been suspended from college since last summer. I now hear they were sacked this year (February?) For what? Doesn't quite fit the glowing reports on the staff page.

I wonder what else on the site is sheer spin?

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Emma Louise

Storm in a teapot
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Could it be they just don't update it that often, or at least don't want to update it until they are sure of what is replacing it?
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Nightlamp
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I found this which I found to be quite an odd location to communicate with the world from. Then Wycliffe Hall has been a little odd.
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Charles Read
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Nightlamp - well spotted!

" a number of improvements have been made to our staffing structure"

It might be deemed unprofessional of me to comment on this bit of spin but passing unfair dismissal off as 'restructuring' - well, Henry Ford did something similar to his Detroit workers and it led local Baptist pastor Reinhold Niebuhr to reflect on the nature of structural sin - the rest is theological history. I won't comment further, but I think others might not resist the temptation...

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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi

"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh

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Barnabas62
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Spotted by BroJames in March, guys. But why not put such stuff on the website?

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Nightlamp
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It seems that this was a press release which you can find on Wycliffe's website. Reading through the website particularly the women's page it does seem to be a good place to go. Unfortunately reality and Wycliffe’s website seem to be divorced. If it even acknowledged that there has been an almighty balls up then it would show some integrity.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Heavenly Anarchist
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The women's page not only reads in a stilted and uninspiring manner, it is also badly edited. No rousing words of encouragement, it's immensely dull.

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Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
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# 266

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To me it says woman are welcome but it fails to deal with the issue of the fact that the leadership of the college (Vibert at least)don't like women prists.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Cadfael
Shipmate
# 11066

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quote:
Originally posted by Nightlamp:
To me it says woman are welcome but it fails to deal with the issue of the fact that the leadership of the college (Vibert at least)don't like women prists.

...and the recently appointed "Dean for Women" is not a member of the Wycliffe senior management team. That's a bit odd for a post carrying the rank of Dean, isn't it?
Posts: 576 | From: North by North West | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
Nightlamp
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# 266

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Are you hinging that all the senior Leadership of Wycliffe are all Male? Well colour me suprised..

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

Posts: 8442 | From: Midlands | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Heavenly Anarchist:
The women's page not only reads in a stilted and uninspiring manner, it is also badly edited.

You can say that again.

quote:
Welcome to the page specifically for women exploring training her at Wycliffe.
[Ultra confused]
quote:
This page will give you a flavour of life for women student at Wycliffe.
Obviously not expecting a massive intake...

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Amos

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# 44

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It's for Engrish-speakers.

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sean D
Cheery barman
# 2271

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I just noticed that the Wycliffe website mentions that the four trustees of Wycliffe are also trustees of Ridley - and presumably will be involved in the appointment of their new principal too?

BTW, to be pedantic the senior management team includes at least one lay woman, and I think also now includes the aforementioned Rev Jenni Williams. If it was Jenni vs Simon Vibert in the ring, I would not give him good odds. She is a force to be reckoned with (that's a compliment).

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