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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Wycliffe Hall in trouble
BroJames
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quote:
Originally posted by Scribehunter:
Andrew Goddard has been appointed to the staff of Trinity College, Bristol. See here.

That's a very strong faculty they've got there - especially in NT studies. The announcement about the appointment is very, um... diplomatic about Wycliffe Hall. [Biased]
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Nightlamp
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I felt the statement was great and very condemning without even mentioning wycliffe. I am wondering what the state of play is between the Goddard’s and Wycliffe with regards to Tribunals etc.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Jaybee
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quote:
Since Elaine Storkey and Wycliffe Hall must have agreed to the terms of reference and scope of the mediation this sounds like very good news. [/B]
I understand that part of the terms was that the Goddards had to be invited to the mediation also

I also noticed from the Press that when there were questions at General Synod about reconciliation at Wycliffe Hall, Elaine Storkey pointed out that truth always came before reconciliation and asked what the Cof E was doing to get at the truth about Wycliffe.

I wonder if this is any comment on the mediation? Is the C of E conducting it?

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Gig
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quote:
In summary, the tribunal seems to have concluded (and the Liverpool Diocesan Board couldn't provide evidence to the contrary) that the Bishop tried to damage Mr Johnson with an untrue statmenent (the tribunal said he lied) ...

I have just heard that another former staff member has issued a grievance against the Bishop of Liverpool and the Wycliffe Principal along similar lines and that a judgement has now been made in his favour. It seems they have been very keen to avoid yet another tribunal on unfair dismissal, but that the college may still be paying out another settlement....How many more, and where will it end?

Has anyone read of any apology yet?

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Hedgerow Priest
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Just read a few posts here. I really hope Wycliffe can 'sort their issues'; every theological college has them, and sometimes they flare up, like a long dormant virus/autoimmune disease. As an Anglo-Catholic, I am not completely up on the inter-evangelical problems (it's difficult enough to keep abreast of developments within one's own tradition) but I have met sufficient Wycliffites to know that they have a passionate and burning love for Jesus, which transcends all ecclesial boundaries. Whilst I might not agree with them on everything, I agree obviously that Jesus is our Risen Lord, and the only way to the Father (though people might know him by another name). Please, Wycliffe, sort it out - the Church needs you. xxx

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"Where is the Love"
Saint Fergy de Pea

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Dazzler
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In response to Gig.

Has anyone said sorry for this mess yet? Not that anyone knows. But there's a great story circulating here up north about the Wycliffe Hall ball at the end of term, a few weeks back (rather a subdued affair, my correspondents tell me). I am told that one of the students requested that the DJ play a song in honour of the Principal. The song? Elton John, "Sorry Seems To Be The Hardest Word." Nice, eh?

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The Centurion
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Dazzler, was your correspondent actually there? I was and it certainly didn't seem subdued to me and the song you mentioned was not on the play-list and no songs were dedicated to the principal. I thought I should squash that rumour...
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Nightlamp
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I have to agree it sounds like an urban myth to me or what someone thought should have happened.

I think the most interesting fact would be how many ordinands would have signed up to wycliffe this year but it seems such figures for all colleges cannot be found on the net.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Charles Read
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Colleges are still recruiting and some do pick up a number of late recommendations. However, WH will not be at the head of the queue this year. Experience shows that the college needs to make amends (if it has acted wrongly) or get its house in order (if there is a genuine problem that needs sorting out) before recruiting picks up.

Sending out letters to DDOs sayinfg all is rosy will not cut any ice - and is too late now for 2008 entry.

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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi

"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by The Centurion:
I thought I should squash that rumour...

Reading the post carefully dazzler only said it was requested not that it was played...

Charles Read are you saying Wycliffe has been sending out letters to DDO's?

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Charles Read
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Apparently so.

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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi

"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh

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Nightlamp
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Sending out letters like that if indeed correct smells of panic. Probably the best way of looking after the college is the management saying a big public sorry and those responsible for the situation getting the sack.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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Moo

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There was another Christian website that was discussing this. Unfortunately I have lost the URL. I think the name was Fulcrum, but I'm not sure. Can someone help me?

Moo

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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.

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BroJames
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Hi Moo!

I'm not following you around - honest [Smile] Here

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The Centurion
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quote:
Reading the post carefully dazzler only said it was requested not that it was played...
I am certain that it wasn't even requested. A "friend" did request and dedicate two different songs which were very much a tongue-in-cheek jest. Neither song was intended to undermine the principal for whom both I and my "friend" have much respect.

This incident has been misreported in such a way that gives it a more sinister edge and I regret that jokes made at a student ball should then be twisted to disparage the reputation of the college - a place that has given me great memories and has equipped me well for my curacy.
Rant over...

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by The Centurion:
[ A "friend" did request and dedicate two different songs which were very much a tongue-in-cheek jest.

Earlier you said no songs were dedicated to the principal...

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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The Great Gumby

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quote:
Originally posted by The Centurion:
This incident has been misreported in such a way that gives it a more sinister edge and I regret that jokes made at a student ball should then be twisted to disparage the reputation of the college

Sinister? Oh, puh-leeease. This was nothing more or less than a wryly humorous story, which everyone would have taken with a huge dose of salt anyway, and I very much doubt the college has much of a reputation to disparage any more. But if you think it's such a terrible calumny, why don't you tell us exactly what your "friend" did (why the scare quotes, BTW?), and why you think this is the "incident" being "misreported"?

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

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Amos

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The scare quotes around "friend" worry me more than the possibility of that particular song being dedicated to the Principal. Surely Wycliffites are allowed to have friends.

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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The Great Gumby

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quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Surely Wycliffites are allowed to have friends.

But possibly not "friends"... [Devil]

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

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The Centurion
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quote:
Earlier you said no songs were dedicated to the principal...
Indeed no songs were dedicated to the principal but there were other dedications.

quote:
The scare quotes around "friend" worry me more than the possibility of that particular song being dedicated to the Principal.
OK I confess I made the dedications.
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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
Surely Wycliffites are allowed to have friends.

But possibly not "friends"... [Devil]
especially not if they're Dorothy's too.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Jaybee
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From Centurion
quote:
OK I confess I made the dedications
Very telling - the psychologists would probably have a lot to say about The Centurion. Why would he want to make a dedication which is so pointed and then run for cover when someone exposes it? It isn't much of a joke.

I think psychologists ought also to get on the case of the Bishop of liverpool, James Jones. He was reported this week to have been calling for a higher profile for 'Restorative justice'!!! After (at least) two judges have already ruled against his own actions as unjust and illegal, can those who brought the cases now look forward to some restorative justice from the Bishop? Or is he living in some far off land where bishops call for others to live justly but think that apologies and restitutions don't apply to them.......

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Cantiones Sacrae
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<bump>
Any news?

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Barnabas62
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Doesn't look like it. I think there would have been a follow up on the Fulcrum website - but I can't see anything there. (See BroJames post above for link).

This suggests mediation is ongoing. I would have thought that a quiet settlement would have been accompanied by a brief, agreed press release. I can't find any evidence of such a press release.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Dintin
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quote:
Cantiones:
Any news?

A student at Wycliffe phoned just five minutes ago and told me that Wycliffe Hall is being inspected by the Bishop's Inspectors this week. I don't know what this includes, and students have been given strict instructions to make everything sound good.....
I wonder if the inspectors have been asked to investigate why the college broke the law and dismissed people. And why so many staff left to go to Trinity Bristol! Perhaps they have to ask about the financial costs of tribubals etc. I don't know. What do inspectors inspect?
My friend told me they were not sure that the religious discrimination case has actually been dropped.
There's some more news related to Wycliffe on Thinking Anglican and Fulcrum. Apparently, the Principal at the centre of the mess, Richard Turnbull, tried to bully and manipulate a whole conference of people last Saturday in London. He was chairing a consultation and sprung something on delegates to vote through, and no amendments were allowed. They refused ... -http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/forum/index.cfm

Was anyone there?

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The Weeder
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Din tin, Where abouts on the linked board will we find the account of this event?

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Still missing the gator

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Charles Read
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I was there. You can read it about it pretty much all over the Fulcrum site and it really was as bad as people there are saying. (Actually, the platform contributions were generally good - esapecially in the morning - it was the motion and vote sprung on us that was appalling).

Inspectors inspect everything - state of buildings, balance sheets, governance, quality of teaching, chapel life - you name it.

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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi

"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh

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innocent(ish)
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Does this mean that the inspectors look at just what is happening currently, or does their remit extend to the historical as well?

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"Christianity has become part of the furniture ... like a grand piano nobody plays any longer.I want the dust to be taken off and people to play music." Archbishop John Sentamu

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Dintin
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quote:
Din tin, Where abouts on the linked board will we find the account of this event?
Weeder, it's this: http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/page.cfm?ID=360 I've also seen something on Guardian online which gives a very full account and there is an interesting discussion afterwards: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2008/nov/17/religion-anglicanism

Charles - what about innocent(ish)'s question? Do the inspectors inspect 'last year' or just now? I think at least one student there would like to know....

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Charles Read
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They inspect the college or course as it is - but will take account of recent history. Any staff member or student can talk to the inspectors in confidence and you can bet that some DDOs will also have already done so.

They tend to ask sharp questions about whether the college is adequately preparing people for Anglican ministry - how Anglican is the worship? Is the BCP ever used? What is taught on the liturgy courses? How well do students reflect on their placements and does the college encourage them to see Anglicanism beyond their experience of Church thus far?

The inspectors eventually make recommendations, which only the college and the House of Bishops see - this is not a public document. The kind of thing thay recommend varies but might include:
- redecorate the dining room
- use the BCP for Morning Prayer at least for 4 weeks per year
- reconfigure the governing body so as to include people with expertise in fundraising /PR / higher Education etc.
- think carefully before increasing the number of courses on offer
- employ more staff with incumbency experience

... and so on. Anything can be the subject of a recommendation. Colleges get the chance to say if the recommendations are unrealistic.

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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi

"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Dintin:
quote:
Din tin, Where abouts on the linked board will we find the account of this event?
Weeder, it's this: http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/page.cfm?ID=360 I've also seen something on Guardian online which gives a very full account and there is an interesting discussion afterwards: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2008/nov/17/religion-anglicanism

Charles - what about innocent(ish)'s question? Do the inspectors inspect 'last year' or just now? I think at least one student there would like to know....

Turnbull just keeps on coming back for more, doesn't he?

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Rev per Minute
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
I was there. You can read it about it pretty much all over the Fulcrum site and it really was as bad as people there are saying. (Actually, the platform contributions were generally good - especially in the morning - it was the motion and vote sprung on us that was appalling).

I was rather surprised, after all the fuss over Wycliffe, to see that Richard Turnbull was chairing such a meeting - and rather surprised, too, at the tone he apparently took. Over at Thinking Anglicans there is discussion of the day's events - the following account of Dr Turnbull's management of the meeting is telling:

quote:
"If you don’t want a vote, fine", said Turnbull from the chair. "In that case the Church of England Evangelical Council will take its own decision." From the audience: "Then why consult us?" Turnbull: "I would appreciate if you did not interrupt me." Someone else in the audience: "Depends what you say."
[Wim Houten - Reporter from the Dutch Evangelical Press]



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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor

At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken

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badman
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I thought that this, from a New Wine clergyman in Essex who was there was rather telling, too:-

quote:
"...I now conclude that there are only two kinds of evangelical - those who agree with Richard Turnbull and those who do not!"


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FreeJack
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There are quite a few diocesan vacancies on the CEEC for 2009. Get your nominations in now!
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Dintin
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quote:

There are quite a few vacancies on CEEC for 2009. Get your nominations in now!

Good idea, Freejack, but there is a problem. Whoever gets on will have to put up with Turnbull and his bullying chairing. If the reports from last Saturday and Wycliffe Hall are anything to go by, why on earth would anyone want to do that?

How long do chair-people stay in place? Come to that, how long do Anglican college principals stay in place. Another question for Charles Read: Can the Inspectors 'unseat' them and do they ever?

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Ethne Alba
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After this year and now this month, maybe questions of 'confidence' might just be starting to be raised.
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Charles Read
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Inspectors do not have the power to unseat anybody. Colleges are independent bodies, not owned or governed by the CofE. Courses are slightly different.

I have never heard of inspectors naming individual staff in this way in their reports, but of course reports can still point the finger. E.g. if a report said 'The teaching of liturgy is poor' and there is only one person teaching it, the inference is obvious without naming names!

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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi

"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh

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Nightlamp
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
The inspectors eventually make recommendations, which only the college and the House of Bishops see - this is not a public document.

If the inspectors or college were counted as a 'public authority' and I think there may be a case that they are. In which case they would be liable to a freedom of information request for a copy of the report.

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I don't know what you are talking about so it couldn't have been that important- Nightlamp

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The Weeder
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by Dintin:
quote:
Din tin, Where abouts on the linked board will we find the account of this event?
Weeder, it's this: http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/page.cfm?ID=360 I've also seen something on Guardian online which gives a very full account and there is an interesting discussion afterwards: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2008/nov/17/religion-anglicanism

Charles - what about innocent(ish)'s question? Do the inspectors inspect 'last year' or just now? I think at least one student there would like to know....

Turnbull just keeps on coming back for more, doesn't he?
Thank you Albertus. Wow!

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Still missing the gator

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Charles Read
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Nightlamp asked:
quote:
If the inspectors or college were counted as a 'public authority' and I think there may be a case that they are. In which case they would be liable to a freedom of information request for a copy of the report.

That would be an ecumenical question - sorry, that's an interesting question. It has never been tested and I suspect that colleges are not public authorities. They are often charities.

Of course, if a college gets a good report (as we did on both occasions we were inspected when I was on the stqaff of Cranmer Hall...!), the college will publicize it.

As I understand it, the reports go to the House of Bishops, any member of whom can ask for a discussion of them - otherwise they are received undiscussed. However, as I've never been allowed in to the HofB (even to make the tea), someone like Pete173 may be able to confirm this.

Then again, what bishops say to each other over the coffee breaks is another matter....

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"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh

Posts: 701 | From: Norwich | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
Dintin
Apprentice
# 14165

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I've just seen more comments on the heavy-handedness at that NEAC event, including this by the famous Bishop Colin Buchanan who, I'm told, also used to be a theological college principal.

quote:

I understand the 'C' stood for 'Consultation'. But it was no Consultation, as there were no questions for us to consider, no participation, no scope for anything to come from the floor, no open-ness to findings or discernments. It was a platform-led, almost platform-dominated, day. The most the floor could do was block the wrong direction the platform took, and end up with nothing.

He finishes by saying :
quote:
I suggest CEEC has to look to itself and see how.. it managed to exhibit such inept leadership.
There are a lot more comments on the Fulcrum site from people who were there. web page Fulcrum Surely Turnbull will have to take some notice of what people think about his leadership? Even he can't be that sure of himself that he doesn't care what is said?
http://www.fulcrum-anglican.org.uk/forum/thread.cfm?thread=9130

I'm interested to know how we end up with these kinds of leaders in the C of E? Is anyone teaching leadership skills anywhere, especially Christian leadership?

BTW -Is the Wycliffe report likely to be published anywhere or leak through to anybody?

Posts: 20 | From: South of England | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged
Custard
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# 5402

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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
I was there. You can read it about it pretty much all over the Fulcrum site and it really was as bad as people there are saying. (Actually, the platform contributions were generally good - esapecially in the morning - it was the motion and vote sprung on us that was appalling).

I agree that NEAC sounds like the speakers were good, but that the leadership made it into a train wreck. A lot of my friends were there - I wanted a day off and am glad I didn't go.

You'll be pleased to know that Christian Leadership is still being taught at Wycliffe, and it's being taught very well in my opinion (by Will Donaldson, who is a great and humble guy, sensitive to people coming from different places, etc).

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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.


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Arrietty

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I've just looked on the CEEC website, there is no Diocesan info on there due to the site being spammed but it is reported on the front page that

quote:
CEEC President Wallace Benn and Chairman Richard Turnbull acting on behalf of the Executive have signed a letter of support for orthodox Anglicans in Canada who are seeking primatial oversight from the province of the Southern Cone
so I wouldn't want to join it anyway.

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Organ Builder
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# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by Arrietty:
I've just looked on the CEEC website, there is no Diocesan info on there due to the site being spammed but it is reported on the front page that

quote:
CEEC President Wallace Benn and Chairman Richard Turnbull acting on behalf of the Executive have signed a letter of support for orthodox Anglicans in Canada who are seeking primatial oversight from the province of the Southern Cone
so I wouldn't want to join it anyway.
I'll admit I'm following this primarily because of this thread and I know none of the principals involved. But I'm curious...

After the rather public brouhaha at the conference, does this letter really have any credibility as representing the views of the CEEC? Obviously it represents the view of Wallace Benn and Richard Turnbull, but that isn't quite the same...

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Albertus
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How many people really take Wallace Benn seriously? I know little about him but it's the name (which I suppose he can't help) that does it for me. Half Grommit's mate, half the suit-changing time traveller of Festive Road.

Actually the serious point- which cropped up at the time of the Church Times letter about San Jacinto earlier this year- is that a Bishop of the CofE is happily supporting schism elsewhere in the Communion. If I were ++ Rowan I would be wanting +Cicestr to tell me what he proposes to do about this behaviour on the part of his suffragan.

[ 26. November 2008, 15:58: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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FreeJack
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# 10612

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
If I were ++ Rowan I would be wanting +Cicestr to tell me what he proposes to do about this behaviour on the part of his suffragan.

Well since ++Rowan apparently did nothing when one of his own suffragans threatened to leave for Rome, I wouldn't hold your breath.

Apart from anything else, if the cons. evos lost +Lewes and they didn't get a replacement bishop elsewhere they would whinge even more than they do now (with some justification).

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Dintin
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quote:
There are quite a few diocesan vacancies on the CEEC for 2009. Get your nominations in now!
I'm sorry I was a bit dismissive about this, Freejack. I can see now that it could be a very good idea- at least for people who would don't mind the process. It seems silly to have an evangelical council which claims to represent evangelicals and then let them do this kind of stuff.

If you know, could you tell us
Who is eligble?
How do people get nominated?
What do they have to do to stand?
Who elects them?
When does all this happen?
Are there different categories of people?
Would they welcome Shipmates?!!!!

If anybody wants to be nominated. who should they contact?

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Thurible
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# 3206

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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
If I were ++ Rowan I would be wanting +Cicestr to tell me what he proposes to do about this behaviour on the part of his suffragan.

Well since ++Rowan apparently did nothing when one of his own suffragans threatened to leave for Rome, I wouldn't hold your breath.

Not least because +Rowan has implied that he would fully understand why one of his suffragans might feel that he was no longer welcome.

Thurible

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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

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FreeJack
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# 10612

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quote:
Originally posted by Dintin:
quote:
There are quite a few diocesan vacancies on the CEEC for 2009. Get your nominations in now!
I'm sorry I was a bit dismissive about this, Freejack. I can see now that it could be a very good idea- at least for people who would don't mind the process. It seems silly to have an evangelical council which claims to represent evangelicals and then let them do this kind of stuff.

If you know, could you tell us
Who is eligble?
How do people get nominated?
What do they have to do to stand?
Who elects them?
When does all this happen?
Are there different categories of people?
Would they welcome Shipmates?!!!!

If anybody wants to be nominated. who should they contact?

The electorate are the Chairman and Secretary of the Diocesan Evangelical Fellowships in the Province, or similar, plus representatives of the great and the good.

CEEC Elections

CEEC Council

Fulcrum view

Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Dintin
Apprentice
# 14165

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Thanks Freejack. I have looked at the CEEC elections but it looks very dodgy. This is what I found :
quote:
24 members of CEEC are elected by DEFs to represent the Provinces of Canterbury and York........... Persons nominated must subscribe to the CEEC Object and Basis of Faith. They may be nominated and seconded by any member of CEEC or of a DEF......The Electors are the Chairman and Secretaries of the DEFs.

So they are nominated by DEFs or CEEC and elected by DEF bosses. Would somebody tell me what DEFs are and how the Chairmen and Secretaries get all this power? I've never heard of a DEF and nobody has ever invited me or anybody I know, to do anything/say anything in relation to a DEF - How on earth can they be my representative? (I googled DEF and only got Def Leppard) And how do you get to know what the CEEC 'Object' is? Sounds like a secret society. Sorry to sound paranoid, but this seems like another strategy to make sure Turnbull and co.are self-perpetuating.

Now I can see how he got elected - cronyism!
. How have this lot managed to persuade evangelicals in churches up and down the country that they represent them?

Posts: 20 | From: South of England | Registered: Oct 2008  |  IP: Logged



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