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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Is there hope for the Bible Belt?
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Several ship-mates live in the US Deep South or the Mid-West. The Bible Belt. Fortunately or unfortunately for them.
And they appear to struggle. Whilst appreciating aspects of the prevailing religious culture they evidently feel out on a limb if they don't subscribe to dispensationalism, a pro-Zionist stance on Israel, vote Republican or otherwise subscribe to an ethos and emphases that the rest of Christendom does not necessarily hold.
Some are heroically bearing witness to other ways of doing things. And I take my hat off to them.
My question is this. Is the Bible Belt buckled so tightly that anything other than the stereotypical views that the rest of us ascribe to it cannot breathe? Or does the fertile soil allow (potentially) other flowers to bloom?
Will it loosen up in time?
And if so, will it eventually go the way of the Eastern seaboard and the Pacific coast and become more liberal, more secularised or more pluralist?
Let's not forget that parts of New England were eventually described by Finney and other revivalists as the 'burned over district'. Could the fervour of the Bible Belt States eventually burn itself out?
I'm not one of those who sees all Mid-West/Southern US Christians as hootin' an' a hollerin' Appallachian snake handlers. But it does strike me that there's a conservative, fundamentalist, South Baptist/Pentecostal 'Left Behind' type hegemony down there that is far from healthy in many respects.
But I'm on this side of the Pond. And have only visited New York.
What are the views/insights of those who live there or who know it well?
Gamaliel
[ 09. October 2009, 18:59: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
I don't think Puritan New England and the Deep South share the same historical and social dynamics. True, more diversity, tolerance, political liberalism/progressiveness may coalesce around major urban areas that are host to an influx of professionals from elsewhere in the country. However, I think a lot of the Deep South is going to remain relatively impervious to change, or it will evolve only very, very gradually. I'm sure that there are many who live in relatively liberal-tolerant bits of the South who feel comfortable and not under seige. However, outside of the cities and the states of North Carolina and Arkansas I don't think the picture is generally very comforting.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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the gnome
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# 14156
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Posted
A minor detail: the "Burned-over District" was in upstate New York, not in New England.
Not that that invalidates your overall point.
To answer your question: There's always hope. People can change, slightly, when they decide to. Actually, people change all the time--even when they haven't decided to and don't realize they're doing it. Societies consist of people. So societies can change.
A thousand years ago the Scandinavians were dedicated village-burners and baby-impalers. Now they're known worldwide as the most peaceable and humane of peoples. I don't think it will take the Bible Belt anywhere near a thousand years.
In the meanwhile, how about these beams in my eye and yours?
Posts: 99 | From: New England, USA | Registered: Sep 2008
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Presbyopic
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# 10596
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Posted
This is offered with the greatest respect.
I think you really need to go to the "bible belt" and meet and live with the people there. They are a diverse people- culturally and racially. There are city folk, country folk, black, white, hispanic, native American, asian etc. You will certainly find the types of Christian you describe, but you will also find much more.
Posts: 699 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2005
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
I used to live in the buckle of the Bible Belt. I heard on a regular basis why Catholics were going to Hell because they worshiped the Pope, why I was going to Hell because I believed in evolution rather than God and why gays went to Hell for The Usual Reasons. It got to the point that I thought Hell might not be that bad of a place if all my friends were going there. I heard why having sex outside of marriage was a guarantee of getting AIDS, STD's that no condom could prevent, not to mention that you'd get knocked up before you were even done with the Act.
Of course, half the people who were preaching these lines had to take off their purity rings when performing said Acts every weekend, but that's besides the point. Jesus died for their sins.
Oh, and the bad pop psychology you'd hear from them? Yeah. Doing good works made God like you, so he'd make sure good things came to you multiplied. Let's not even talk about the PRYD4IT license plate on the new BMW.
So yes, the hypocrisy, the greed, the Normal Human Vices justified with a veneer of piety truly began to grate. It's probably why I always hung around atheists, animists and oddball "spiritual" types–the kind of people who thought jokes about why Baptists object to fornication (it might lead to DANCIN'!) were funny rather than Beyond Offensive.
Will the Belt loosen any time soon? Meh, it'll grow more polarized first as the New Atheist movement grows more shrill and megachurches finally have a defined Enemy (besides Muslims) to rail against. Beyond that, who knows?
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
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LutheranChik
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# 9826
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Posted
I live in outstate Michigan (a confusing term which actually simply refers to the majority of the state lying north of the Detroit-Grand Rapids corridor). We are culturally, if not geographically, "Bible Belt"; but there are pockets of progressivism here, particularly in university towns and resort areas that attract a cosmopolitan summer population. I'd agree that there's always hope of change even in the most entrenched bastions of backwardness.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Several ship-mates live in the US ...Bible Belt... they evidently feel out on a limb if they don't subscribe to dispensationalism, a pro-Zionist stance on Israel, vote Republican ...
Is the Bible Belt buckled so tightly that anything other than the stereotypical views that the rest of us ascribe to it cannot breathe? Or does the fertile soil allow (potentially) other flowers to bloom?
Will it loosen up in time?
A recent book by a liberal student who went to a conservative Bible college for a semester suggests it's not all that hard to live with these folks. infiltrating student
Even if you did miss a few issues (absolutely no abortion in any circumstance, tithing, submission of women, etc). ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
An article a few months ago said regions in USA are becoming less varied, people are moving to be with "their own kind." Liberals are moving to the coasts, conservatives to the center, instead of communities being thoroughly mixed as in days of old. *If* that article is true, Bible Belt will be with us a long time. OTOH, sometimes people just sort of have to write articles.
And there are Catholic churches everywhere, they don't get involved in rapture discussions. But yes to some extent the Methodists are infected even though the pastors try to fight the fascination with end times countdown. I should ask my Episcopalian friends if the topic arises there.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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rugasaw
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# 7315
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Posted
The topic is split in Episcopal land. One of the problems is that the loud mouths are of this conservative breed. The majority don't really care that much about church or politics. Unless they have some spare time to complain.
In the Native arena I would say it is split as well.
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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
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GoodCatholicLad
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# 9231
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Posted
My cousin's job had her move to Arkansas from Wisconsin and she said there is a big, big difference in the cultures. Wisconsin to me is Catholic/Lutheran country. Anyone who says that all the states are the same nowadays, my cousin would beg to differ. She tells me it's an everyday occurrence to ask "have you heard the good news?" and go on about religion. Catholicism still gets a disapproving look and that Catholics need to accept Christ. Not to mention a plethora of BBQ joints.
She also said that Arkansas looks poor, ie the infrastructure, the buildings etc in comparison to Wisconsin. Never been to Arkansas and have no desire. Virginia or Maryland is about as southern as I will go.
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All you have is right now.
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gaudium
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# 13365
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Posted
My parents were born and raised in Oklahoma--I have lived in Oklahoma and both Carolinas, as well as in Chicago. I understand how easy it can be to scorn the Bible Belt--and how hard it can be for those outside of the evangelical loop. I have suffered much grief from my own family about my decision to leave their (One True ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) ) church. But for all that, I want to defend the Bible Belt.
The people here have warmth and friendliness that is simply not to be found in Northern regions. I will never forget moving to my first place in Oklahoma from Chicago--waiting outside an opened door for at least 60 seconds, before realizing that the perfect stranger holding it was doing so for me! It is shocking how much better these oft-forgotten neighborly curtesies--open doors, less honking--make common life. Not everyone practices them, of course. But there is a different pace of life.
quote:
Originally posted by AristonAstuanax:
So yes, the hypocrisy, the greed, the Normal Human Vices justified with a veneer of piety truly began to grate.
I once had a philosophy teacher who opined at length that hypocrisy was an unusual fault, because it required that the hypocrite(or a society with which he identified) to truly believe that the paraded virtue was good, and the concealed vice wrong. Thus, I sometimes find the hypocrisy of certain Christians more refreshing than the jaded amoralism of many liberals. As a young person, I know people in both Chicago and Oklahoma who indulged in The Lust of the Flesh--but many more of the Oklahomans seemed secretly troubled by it, as much as they tried to supress their guilt. They know they are supposed to do better.
And the thing is, so many of them do do better. "Intellectual" Christians--like myself, so many times-- can get so caught up in thinking clever thoughts about what is right and calling on institutions to do what is right, that we--I--forget that we need to actually do right stuff ourselves. People in the Bible Belt try to live right. And living right is important. Personal morality matters.
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Comely as Jerusalem, Terrible as an army with banners.
Posts: 70 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2008
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gaudium
Shipmate
# 13365
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Posted
Sorry for the double post, but I realized that I didn't answer the question...
Is there hope? I would say much hope. As AristonAstunax noted, "Bible-belters" will contine to encounter ideas from more secularized regions. Will some of the responses be shrill and reactionary? Sure. But others will perforce be more constructive. Furthermore, the cultural intensity can work both ways. When I was at the University of Oklahoma (yes, we have accredited universities in Oklahoma!) I noticed that the (Catholic) Newman Center was particularly active and well-run. Because they were a minority, Catholic students had a better sense of identity and understanding why they were Catholic. I knew three people who became Catholic while I was there! Perhaps that should have been another point in my defense of the Bible Belt--they really care. No Laodiceans here! If they become convinced that God wants something, they will do it, whether it is this or this . Jesus matters.
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Comely as Jerusalem, Terrible as an army with banners.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gaudium:
Perhaps that should have been another point in my defense of the Bible Belt--they really care. No Laodiceans here! If they become convinced that God wants something, they will do it, whether it is this or this .
Or the Inquisition. That sort of attitude is just what makes for pogroms and torture and religious wars. Give me people who care just a smidge LESS.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by GoodCatholicLad:
She also said that Arkansas looks poor, ie the infrastructure, the buildings etc in comparison to Wisconsin. Never been to Arkansas and have no desire. Virginia or Maryland is about as southern as I will go.
Hah! I visited Arkansas a few times in the mid 1970s, as the guest of a friend who came from there. He showed me the well-to-do suburbs and exurbs stretching west of Little Rock for thirty miles. (I thought, he must mean thirty blocks. But no, miles it was.) Maybe most of the State is poor, but it isn't altogether deprived. Since then, however, wealth has concentrated nationwide. I'd be curious to see whether these prosperous neighborhoods are still so extensive or whether some have become more so while others less.
Remembering a few other words of Bishop Robinson last night: homophobia is an aspect of a patriarchal society. It's cracking up. Naturally, those on top of the heap don't enjoy seeing their hegemony slipping away, so they lash out, sometimes desperately. He speculates that the British Empire and the British Commonwealth are now largely figments of the imagination, but the Anglican Communion is still around as a reminder of British influence. That various powerful and nostalgic figures in British society may have prevailed upon the Archbishop of Canterbury to preserve it at all costs is a possible explanation for his puzzling behavior, after he had earlier articulated so clearly the integrity of gay people in the life of the church. However, one hopes that the Anglican Communion will not be "preserved" by becoming something that it never was before: a centralized entity instead of a federation. Someone once asked Archbishop Tutu what the Anglican Communion was. He answered in two words: "We meet."
Back to me thinking now: With respect to the U.S. South, another challenge to patriarchy is the women's movement. For better or worse, this seems to be an unstoppable juggernaut in American society, and it is bound to eat away at the influence of the fundamentalist religions so at odds with it. However, this fundamentalism is both dependent on a few personality types and capable of creating them, especially in children brought up in its sway from early infancy. So it can't be shed as quickly as a suit of clothes.
Perhaps the above also suggests why Southern Baptists are getting divorced nowadays so much more often than atheists.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
Arkansas also includes the relatively liberal small city of Fayetteville, home to the main campus of the University of Arkansas. This is a pattern replicated throughout the South, in which there is a marked difference between the university cities and big population centres on the one hand, and the rural and small town places on the other. I think it also points up the fact that the Bible Belt is a crazy quilt of shades and gradations. Oak Lawn in Dallas and Montrose in Houston would give little indication of being within the geographical Bible Belt, but the suburbs of Dallas and Houston are a lot more con-evo than the centres of those cities.
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New Yorker
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# 9898
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Posted
I grew up in the South. My small town was the "Vatican" of not one but three Pentacostal denominations. To Be High Church was to be Methodist. Everyone wondered about those funny groups like the Presbyterians and the Epsicopalians. To be Catholic then was just beyond the thought range of many Bible Beltians.
I would argue that it is much different today. The rise of de factoathiesm is rampant. By this I mean those to whom God means nothing or those who may go to church from time to time, but don't really let it change their lives. The influx of Hispanics and Northerners has also shifted things.
I would also argue that the question "Is there hope for the Bible Belt?" is arrogant. I may not agree with most of what those Bible Beltian Fundamentalists teach, but at least they are Christian - at least most of them. Many of the secular elite here in New York are not only not Christian but also outright anti-Christian.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
I think a negative aspect of Bible Belt religion that I would identify is the conflation of Christianity (esp Protestant Christianity) with nationalism, patriotism, and quasi-theocracy. There is a sort of triumphalism that comes out of Bible Belt preachers and some of their flocks that is simply hubris. As I write this, I can of course hear New Yorker whispering in my ear that many liberals are guilty of their own form of triumphalism, so I want to be clear that I'm aware of the moats and beams thing. However, I don't think Christianity is well-served by the kind of distortions that I'm describing above: these seem singularly not to resemble the teachings of Our Lord and the practice of the Church where it hasn't started confusing itself with the State. Identifying America as the New Israel and suchlike is a very dangerous game.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Angel Wrestler
Ship's Hipster
# 13673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I think a negative aspect of Bible Belt religion that I would identify is the conflation of Christianity (esp Protestant Christianity) with nationalism, patriotism, and quasi-theocracy. There is a sort of triumphalism that comes out of Bible Belt preachers and some of their flocks that is simply hubris. As I write this, I can of course hear New Yorker whispering in my ear that many liberals are guilty of their own form of triumphalism, so I want to be clear that I'm aware of the moats and beams thing. However, I don't think Christianity is well-served by the kind of distortions that I'm describing above: these seem singularly not to resemble the teachings of Our Lord and the practice of the Church where it hasn't started confusing itself with the State. Identifying America as the New Israel and suchlike is a very dangerous game.
I'm a Bible Belt preacher and I've never preached anything close to this!
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The fact that no one understands you does not make you an artist.
(unknown)
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New Yorker
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# 9898
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Posted
LSK has a point. Many of the fundamentalist groups exhalt nationalism in an inappropriate manner. That said, there is nothing wrong with being nationalistic or proud of your country. As the song says "I"m Proud to be an American!" It's just problematic if that's sung in church!
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Since the bible-belt here has been vaguely defined to include pretty much the entire United States outside of the coasts, howzabout a totally related question: Is there any hope for the coasts?
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Wilfried
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# 12277
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
I would argue that it is much different today. The rise of de factoathiesm is rampant. By this I mean those to whom God means nothing or those who may go to church from time to time, but don't really let it change their lives.
I recently went to a series of lectures by Frances FitzGerald on the history of and current trends in Evangelicalism in America. She talked about the decline of the Mainline, but noted that there are signs that it's starting to hit evo churches as well. While evo churches are still growing in absolute terms, the growth has slowed, and has not kept pace with the growth in population, so their "market share" has declined. Rather than Mainline churches losing membership to Evangelical ones, she sees all major branches of Christianity, Mainline Protestant, Evangelical, and Catholic, losing numbers to the great unwashed masses of atheists/ un-churched/ spiritual-but-not-religious, the group that's growing percentage-wise. So the hold that Evangelicals, and religion in general, have is weakening even in the Bible Belt.
quote:
I may not agree with most of what those Bible Beltian Fundamentalists teach, but at least they are Christian - at least most of them. Many of the secular elite here in New York are not only not Christian but also outright anti-Christian.
There are are plenty of secular types I'd rather deal with than some Christians; Christians don't get an automatic pass, or even brownie points, in my book. Some of my best friends, not to mention my mother, are atheists. Measures of love and generosity apply independent of whatever religions labels people apply to themselves.
Posts: 429 | From: Lefty on the Right Coast | Registered: Jan 2007
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Belle Ringer
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# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Uh yes, you're a Methodist I see.
Methodist church I attend has the USA flag prominently up front and celebrates every veterans day and memorial day by asking those who served in the USA military to stand and state where and when they served.
I hate it, the USA military has nothing to do with Christianity, any more or less than working in an accounting firm or repairing sewers.
If we are going to twice a year honor those who ever held some particular job, how about school teachers, or those who worked for non-profits?
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
Well, Zach, here in the First State, things seem to me to be pretty moderate. We Dems control the state, but I don't detect any big stream of default atheism, and the Catholic Church has a strong presence, as do the Presbyterians (which appears to be the official Protestant denom around these parts -- something to cheer SPK's heart) and Episcopalians (though they're too innovative for me, so I journey to Philly and Saint Clement's). But we are a backwater here in Delaware. Yet, I wonder if NY is as bad as New Yorker paints it -- I'm always impressed with the church attendance when I'm up in Manhattan.
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Since the bible-belt here has been vaguely defined to include pretty much the entire United States outside of the coasts, howzabout a totally related question: Is there any hope for the coasts?
Zach, here's a visual for this whole discussion.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
There are are plenty of secular types I'd rather deal with than some Christians; Christians don't get an automatic pass, or even brownie points, in my book.
Amen. I keep wondering why Episcopalians (at least reputedly) get along with Jews so well. 'Cuz whatever it is, I want to make sure we don't lose it. Is it our use of the psalms? Our tolerance? Our regard for scholarship and especially history? Yesterday evening Bishop Robinson mentioned another probable reason, which does not surprise me but I had never actually made the connexion: our Incarnationalism means that we are less prone than many other Christians to "mind/body dualism", in which the mind or spirit is considered good and the body bad. [AKA Manicheism, and also part of gnosticism] This is an intrusion of Greek thought which would have been quite alien to the Jewish Jesus.
I'd rather hang out with a Jew than with a Christian waterlogged in gnosticism any day.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I think, on a strictly statistical basis, you will find there are far more ignorant people on the coasts than in the midwest.
Zach
[ 29. April 2009, 20:21: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Well, the population of our coastal states is much higher than in the south and midwest. So, even if a smaller proportion of the coastal population is, much like many of the people on this thread, prone to making bigoted generalizations about people who aren't like them, the slice of the pie is likely to be larger than the Bible-belt one.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
Zach, dear heart, I've spent many years of my life in various cities and regions of Texas (but mostly in Austin, Deo Gratias)as well as elsewhere in the South. I'm not coming from an uninformed perspective or from a lack of direct experience with Ye Olde Bible Belt.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Yeah. You have lots of friends that are in the Bible Belt, right?
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Dumpling Jeff
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# 12766
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Posted
Other than possibly some parts of India I'm not sure the Holy Spirit is blowing stronger than in the deep south.
Liberalism is fine, but it can't take the place of Faith. Faith without liberalism can be twisted and tortured. Yet God makes the twisted straight over time. Liberalism without Faith is empty and leads nowhere.
In the end Faith, Hope, and Charity.
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"There merely seems to be something rather glib in defending the police without question one moment and calling the Crusades-- or war in general-- bad the next. The second may be an extension of the first." - Alogon
Posts: 2572 | From: Nomad | Registered: Jun 2007
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
I haven't tried very hard to find substantiation on the net, but an acquaintance from North Dakota once mentioned that his state was very proud of its percentage of high school graduates who went on to college. It wouldn't surprise me if it were superlative in this regard. Wisconsin and Minnesota have long-standing progressive reputations as well. Iowa may have hidden its light under a bushel until recently, but seems to be worthy of one too, as recent events show.
These are, of course, a cluster of upper-midwestern States, certainly not in the Bible Belt. (Wisconsin, on the contrary, lies in the Biretta Belt). Their flagship state universities have fine reputations. They are also the home of quite a few excellent small liberal-arts colleges whose student bodies are drawn from all over the country (and abroad).
With the partial exception of Indiana (and then there's Utah), the borders of the Bible belt correspond well to the Mason-Dixon line.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Now Zach,that's just descending to a level of mixed silliness and insult. Yes, actually I do. But that's not the point -- I've experienced these places up close and personal, like. Goodness, I went to high school in Lubbock, TX and in order to graduate a year early I attended an accelerated summer programme in a Church of Christ high school that provided all my senior year academic requirements (and some of their's too, like two summer semesters of Bible).
[ 29. April 2009, 20:45: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
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Shadowhund
Shipmate
# 9175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
There are are plenty of secular types I'd rather deal with than some Christians; Christians don't get an automatic pass, or even brownie points, in my book.
Amen. I keep wondering why Episcopalians (at least reputedly) get along with Jews so well. 'Cuz whatever it is, I want to make sure we don't lose it. Is it our use of the psalms? Our tolerance? Our regard for scholarship and especially history? Yesterday evening Bishop Robinson mentioned another probable reason, which does not surprise me but I had never actually made the connexion: our Incarnationalism means that we are less prone than many other Christians to "mind/body dualism", in which the mind or spirit is considered good and the body bad. [AKA Manicheism, and also part of gnosticism] This is an intrusion of Greek thought which would have been quite alien to the Jewish Jesus.
I'd rather hang out with a Jew than with a Christian waterlogged in gnosticism any day.
That is a bizarre argument, as Jews are not incarnational at all, while Catholics and Orthodox are quite distinctly anti-Manichean (no matter what the Gay Bishop self-servingly thinks) and has a horrible history of relations with Jews.
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"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"
A.N. Wilson
Posts: 3788 | From: Your Disquieted Conscience | Registered: Mar 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
With the partial exception of Indiana (and then there's Utah), the borders of the Bible belt correspond well to the Mason-Dixon line.
Don't you mean "With the partial exception of every state?" Again, there are ignorant people everywhere. New Yorker farts do not smell like roses. Acting like a person from Alabama is more ignorant than a New Yorker is bigotry.
quote:
Now Zach,that's just descending to a level of mixed silliness and insult.
You're the one saying that people who don't come from certain regions are ignorant. And you're claiming insult? Oh brother.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not one of those who sees all Mid-West/Southern US Christians as hootin' an' a hollerin' Appallachian snake handlers. But it does strike me that there's a conservative, fundamentalist, South Baptist/Pentecostal 'Left Behind' type hegemony down there that is far from healthy in many respects.
For a slightly different take on this, I live in the closest thing that Canada has to a bible belt: Manitoba. Here there is a strange mish-mash of Christian heritages (including a large number of Mennonites) but there is also a distinct conservative evangelical bias, and also a noticeable conservatism in the general outlook of people.
The point that I think links Manitoba with the South and Mid-West is that all these places are so far from anywhere else. Most of the people I've met here have not travelled a great deal, and have no real experience of different cultures. This breeds a certain insularity, which manifests as patriotism (like singing 'O, Canada' in church on Canada day), and sometimes a view that people who do things differently are wrong (so, essentially, fundamentalism).
This would also explain why the coastal regions of the States do not have this effect so much. Greater recent immigration, easier transportation and the awareness that other places are not so distant all act to widen perspectives and raise the awareness of differences.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Franco-American:
That is a bizarre argument, as Jews are not incarnational at all
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<sigh> Leave it to you to come up with anything to avoid admitting that Bishop Robinson could say something true once in awhile.
Did I claim that the Jews were incarnational? No (although their religion does concentrate on living life in this world rather than being preccupied with the next). What I claimed is that incarnational theology is an inoculation against such dualism, which is also alien to the Jews. As you have observed, it's no guarantee that one will get along with them, but I'm sure that it is a piece of the puzzle.
[ 29. April 2009, 21:46: Message edited by: Alogon ]
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Macx
Shipmate
# 14532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Wilfried:
There are are plenty of secular types I'd rather deal with than some Christians; Christians don't get an automatic pass, or even brownie points, in my book.
Amen. I keep wondering why Episcopalians (at least reputedly) get along with Jews so well. 'Cuz whatever it is, I want to make sure we don't lose it. Is it our use of the psalms? Our tolerance? Our regard for scholarship and especially history? Yesterday evening Bishop Robinson mentioned another probable reason, which does not surprise me but I had never actually made the connexion: our Incarnationalism means that we are less prone than many other Christians to "mind/body dualism", in which the mind or spirit is considered good and the body bad. [AKA Manicheism, and also part of gnosticism] This is an intrusion of Greek thought which would have been quite alien to the Jewish Jesus.
I'd rather hang out with a Jew than with a Christian waterlogged in gnosticism any day.
I want to use a phrase (fukin A) not sure if I can do that here as most Christian boards get testy about that phrase. Right on man.
But at the same time. . . at heart, in this discussion at this time. .. . I have a bloodline mixed deeply in many of the extreme wrongs and rights of Southern Culture. Beyond my race, I identify with the South (and wouldn't be diappointed at all if Obama screws things up enough and gives us a chance to revise the woeful outcome of 1865). Perhaps Bible Belt transends state identity as my family had influence in Eastern Missouri, NE Arkansas, Western Kentucky and Tennessee as well as western Indiana. Southern Illinois was ours, and Al Capone asked my father's uncle's permission to come down to Peoria. My pedigree, besides involving a major crime family is about as Bible Belt as it gets. Many of us, would view what the OP would call liberation as something akin to geonocide. The Bible Belt is quite happy with it's point of view and happier still if carpet-bagging scum would quit trying to profiteer our hard work. As much as any one of you might want to bring "enlightenment" to the Bible belt, you have to do so with the understanding that you will be seen as a carpetbagger. When your message gets rejected outright and there is a little hostility behind it, it isn't ignorance . . . but the baggage of a wrongly lost war, bad post war policy, and commitment to Biblical scholarship that isn't aimed at degrading Christ. We say, it'd be nice if I could rewrite the Gospel so that my favorite sin wasn't really wrong, but we can't . .. and it is wrong and I can be a hypocrite or deny my desires but sin is sin. In short, if there is hope that the Bible belt can be turned into the luke warm, swarmy, intellectual (pretending), inclusive, utterly void crap that issues forth from the coasts. . . well, Christainity must be wrong altogether. Might as well go play druid cause there is no point in being a Christian if the Bible Belt is wrong.
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Ghosts are always faster in the corners.
Your shipmate,
Macx
Posts: 457 | From: Whittier, Twin Cities, MN | Registered: Feb 2009
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gaudium
Shipmate
# 13365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I think a negative aspect of Bible Belt religion that I would identify is the conflation of Christianity (esp Protestant Christianity) with nationalism, patriotism, and quasi-theocracy.
Very true. Bad things start happening when the Kingdom of Heaven becomes identified with any kingdom of men.
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Comely as Jerusalem, Terrible as an army with banners.
Posts: 70 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2008
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rugasaw
Shipmate
# 7315
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Posted
Gaudium, you found many of the words I wanted to find but could not.
Gaudium,Davelarge, and Alogon have me thinking. I know many in Texas and Oklahoma who would give the shirt off their back to help their fellow neighbor. Most of the people I have known in the bible belt have mostly good personal Christianity. However, their national Christianity tends toward isolationism. A reason for this could be a culture that once was in steeped in racism. Many people in the bible belt can still remember segregation. Another, probably bigger, reason for isolationist beliefs is the near tangible fear that Big Government is going to take over. And in some areas Big Government means the state or even the local town and county.
Is there hope. Yes and no. The more intermingling and education has and will continue to help with the first. The second is not going away anytime soom
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Treat the earth well, It was not given to you by your parents. It was loaned to you by your children. -Unknown
Posts: 2716 | From: Houston | Registered: Jun 2004
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
Originally posted by davelarge: quote:
[In Manitoba there is] a noticeable conservatism in the general outlook of people.
Would that be the province governed by a democratically-elected socialist party? ![[Biased]](wink.gif) It's true that parts of the province -- the area around Steinbach, the Mennonite Vatican -- are quite Bible-beltlike. But, trust me on this: Manitoba pales in comparison with Alberta for sheer, nutty, WTF versions of conservative Christianity.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
"No point being a Xtian if the Bible Belt is wrong"...
Jesus wept; I only hope you are joking.
At least in the Antipodes we mostly laugh at that kind of thinking.
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
Jesus wept; I only hope you are joking.
Sadly, I don't think he is. Such rhetoric is typical of the worst kind of fundie nutjobs the world over. They're the Christian version of the Taliban.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
Originally posted by davelarge: quote:
[In Manitoba there is] a noticeable conservatism in the general outlook of people.
Would that be the province governed by a democratically-elected socialist party? It's true that parts of the province -- the area around Steinbach, the Mennonite Vatican -- are quite Bible-beltlike. But, trust me on this: Manitoba pales in comparison with Alberta for sheer, nutty, WTF versions of conservative Christianity.
OK, I'll concede that Manitoba might not be the 'worst' place in Western Canada, as you're likely to have far more experience than me. I don't think it necessarily dilutes my point though, as lots of Alberta is also a long way from anywhere, and could therefore be prone to an insular outlook.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
Posts: 9455 | From: Left a bit... Right a bit... | Registered: May 2001
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Macx
Shipmate
# 14532
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Posted
quote:
Sadly, I don't think he is. Such rhetoric is typical of the worst kind of fundie nutjobs the world over. They're the Christian version of the Taliban.
It'd be easy to write it off as that if you were the worst kind of sodimite nutjob . . . you know, The Christian version of the CIA.
Fact of the matter is, I value oppinions that are different than mine and I value the freedom to express them. Bemoaning that me and a whole region predominatly share an alternative viewpoint, praying that we can be assimilated into your Borg, belittling anything non-party line liberal as fundie (even in non-right wing, non-fundies) without hearing what is actually being said . . . well, it reaks of hate speech.
Why does my culture need to be killed off? Why is a different point of view so threatening to you? Why so close minded and intollerant?
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Ghosts are always faster in the corners.
Your shipmate,
Macx
Posts: 457 | From: Whittier, Twin Cities, MN | Registered: Feb 2009
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
davelarge: The point you were making about isolation is valid, and I meant to say so, but was posting late.
Macx: Is it possible you may be overreacting slightly? I read the OP as saying, "Will the Bible belt loosen up in time?" not "Destroy Macx and his fellow travellers!" I think it's a good question about social change. ISTM Gamaliel is open about stating a suspicion that a certain religious hegemony is "far from healthy". I would have thought that defending hegemony would be the last thing a libertarian anarchist would do.
ISTM the winds of social change in Western Europe and North America have blown away from traditional versions of Christianity and toward secularism. It would be no surprise if that happened in "Bible belt" places, would it?
Lately I have been harbouring the heretical thought that maybe God is behind this trend -- maybe it's the Holy Spirit blowing those winds of change. Maybe God would rather have us live in secular societies, in relationships of justice with one another, than be in worship every Sunday and bash one another's brains out during the week. It would be just like God to care for God's children like that: preferring that they live peaceably, rather than come to Sunday dinner together and yell and fight.
OTOH... maybe the Bible belt will evangelize the rest of us? Who knows?
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Macx:
Why does my culture need to be killed off?
It doesn't. But it has some major dysfunctions. How on earth do the Civil War and post-Civil War policy go with commitment to a certain kind of biblical scholarship?
quote:
... the baggage of a wrongly lost war, bad post war policy, and commitment to Biblical scholarship that isn't aimed at degrading Christ.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
In seminary I know several southerners, born and raised (one of them, an Georgian, has probably the thickest drawl on campus), who carry a lot of pride in their culture of hospitality and, as one professor put it, the opinion that there is nothing that cannot be improved by being deep-fried.
These same people will tell you they are also deeply ashamed of southern attitudes toward African Americans and more recently toward homosexuals.
One can be proud of one's heritage without saying that one approves of everything that has come out of it.
I fail to see what discriminating against homosexuals has to do with fried green tomatoes or traditional hospitality.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Not living in the geographical Bible Belt -- having a Southern-born semi-son-in-law is the closest I come to having a connection with the South -- I won't venture any guesses into the psychosociological factors that play a role in the stereotyped Bible Belt mindset.
I do, though, as mentioned, live in a part of the Upper Midwest that has definite similarities in parts of the local subculture. And at the risk of being labeled "Borg" I will tell you some characteristics I observe, here in the jackpines, among my fundamentalist/biblical-literalist neighbors:
1. Lack of education and/or lack of exposure to a diversity of people and ideas. (We have two middle-sized state universities and two community colleges within a 50-mile radius, so it's conceivable -- actually more than that; I know many people like this -- that one may have a college degree and yet have a very provincial experience of education and of life in general.)
2. White, and especially white male, and especially white Christian male, sense of lost privilege. The people in question seem to live in a zero-sum world where granting other people equitable rights and social respect somehow diminishes their own.
3. Faux sentimentality for the fantasy America of the 1950's -- contented workers with ample savings; happy housewives dandling babies on one knee while darning their husband's socks; happy, obedient children cut from the pages of Dick and Jane Go to School; annoying minorities of various kinds safely out of sight/out of mind; simple expectations for one's life.
4. An intolerance for the ambiguous, the nuanced, the equivocal, the ironic. "Just tell me what to believe." "Just tell me what to do." "Why can't you just give me a straight answer to my question?"
5. At least grudging admiration for the rich ,unlike the class resentment one finds in other classes and in other cultures -- "They must be doing something right"; either a total inability to make a connection between the misdeeds and excesses of the rich and the economic hardships of the working and underclass, or else a resignation that, yeah, they're bastards, but they're the bastards who sign my paycheck...I wish I could be a bastard too...
I think that mainline churches have a great difficulty reaching out to people with this mindset, while at the same time fundamentalist churches are quite skilled at playing into this population's self-perceptions, fears and preferences.
[ 30. April 2009, 16:45: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
5. At least grudging admiration for the rich ,unlike the class resentment one finds in other classes and in other cultures
In my Wisconsin upbringing, it is more likely that the rich were out of sight and out of mind. Almost everyone was middle class; or at least everyone we met appeared close enough to it that we didn't have to think about the issue very much. To me "the rich people" were those who lived in new houses away from downtown and maybe owned two cars, somewhat better off than we were, but not really much different in a larger context. And there were too many of these to be regarded as very elite. We all went to the same schools and attended the same classes. We heard once in awhile of "a private school" in a ritzier town a few miles away, thought that this was very peculiar, and wondered why anyone would bother sending a child to such a place. I was in scout troop and music club alongside a bank president's son, who had eighteenth-century Presidents of the U.S. in his family tree. (And I always thought that he was a nice kid, but maybe I was lucky there. Not until returning for the tenth-year class reunion did I realize, with some bewilderment, how few of my classmates liked him.)
Before we headed off to (the same) college, the mother of another of my classmates explained to both of us that some of our fellow students there, most of whom would come from the East, would be unbelievably rich, such as we'd had no experience with in our environment. She was right. Nevertheless, not until I moved to the Philadelphia area did the entrenched classism and wealth disparities in our society really sink in. This is partly a function of time as well as place, of course. According to the national statistics it was generally less true when my generation was growing up.
How does this experience compare to the South? I have no experience. The plantation owners must be, or have been, obviously wealthy and conspicuous consumers far above the average citizen; and the African-Americans were just as pervasively on the other end of the scale. But among most white people there was probably a casual middle-class common identity similar to our experience in Lutheranland.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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