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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Is there hope for the Bible Belt?
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
quote:
Originally posted by Matins:
You haven't met Northern Man have you?
It wasn't 'the Northern Man'.
It was 'the Stereotypical Northern Man' which apparently is a whole different kettle of fish.
I'm thinking 'the Stereotypical Northern Man' abhors guns and violence, consistently votes Democratic, wears sweaters with leather patches on the elbows and always lets the woman climb on top.
...Oh!...and is a member of the Book-of-the-Month Club.
Well, that's close to describing me, minus the book of the month club and the bottomy faux heterosexuality.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Do you think there is hope for them?
If the economy improves, yes indeedy. My main man, Obama, says that they cling to stuff because of their insecurities, so I reckon if we make 'em more financially secure they won't be so clingy, like.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I have owned such garments in the past, but I think that tweed jackets, with or without leather elbow patches, qualify as essentially the same cultural statement.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
All the stuff about some people belonging to a place, with the implicit corollary that everyone else does not belong there and should get the fuck out, makes me glad I've never been east of Texas or south of Virginia. But perhaps that's the intent.
I meant to comment on this a while back...
For what it's worth, for a good many years, especially in the 80s and 90s we had droves of people moving to Nashville from Southern California, specifically from the Los Angeles area.
Nearly all of them seemed to love it here, thought the 'quality of life' was fabulous, the scenery beautiful...and the natives extremely friendly.
Of course those were the ones who were fed up with life in Southern Cal to begin with so it was I suppose a self-selecting group of malcontents who couldn't hack it on the coast.
Still...
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
I don't know if the Pennsylvanians are rednecks but there is that really large Harley-Davidson store just outside of State College.
Also, years ago I would visit friends in Ohio driving up from the South. North of Cincinnati there was a farm off the interstate that flew the largest Confederate Battle Flag I have ever seen. I made these drive several years in a row and it was there. This was more than ten years ago. Maybe word has reached these folk by now that the War is over?
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Do you think there is hope for them?
If the economy improves, yes indeedy. My main man, Obama, says that they cling to stuff because of their insecurities, so I reckon if we make 'em more financially secure they won't be so clingy, like.
You assume Barack Obama knows jack about those people, why?
I know some of them voted for him but they were torn. They had.
Barack "God, Guns, and Gays" Obama
or
John "Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back" McCain
On one hand, they had the guy who outright insulted them. On the other, they had a guy telling them that the same economic policy that saw 3 million jobs lost would actually help them if we did it some more. Apparently, Mccain thought they would buy that. Hence, he thought they were stupid. It wasn't a good election for Poor Northern Man.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Nashville is beautiful and an example, I think, of the fact that one can select a lot of different places in the South where one can find a relatively like-minded community. Other places that come to mind include the Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill "Triangle", Charleston, Atlanta (parts of it anyway), Savannah to some extent, Fayetteville and various other places. A number of cities and towns have long had a counter-culture that is indigenous and liberal-minded.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matins:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
Do you think there is hope for them?
If the economy improves, yes indeedy. My main man, Obama, says that they cling to stuff because of their insecurities, so I reckon if we make 'em more financially secure they won't be so clingy, like.
You assume Barack Obama knows jack about those people, why?
I know some of them voted for him but they were torn. They had.
Barack "God, Guns, and Gays" Obama
or
John "Those Jobs Aren't Coming Back" McCain
On one hand, they had the guy who outright insulted them. On the other, they had a guy telling them that the same economic policy that saw 3 million jobs lost would actually help them if we did it some more. Apparently, Mccain thought they would buy that. Hence, he thought they were stupid. It wasn't a good election for Poor Northern Man.
Most of those folks in PA that I'm talking about did not vote for Obama. Obama carried Philly and some adjacent counties, as well as Pitt and some isolated areas in western PA. The majority of counties in the state were carried by McCain.
You don't "get" my humour, do you?
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
A number of cities and towns have long had a counter-culture that is indigenous and liberal-minded.
Ah! Like Northampton, Mass, compared to Easthampton...or - God forbid - Southampton, Mass.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sine Nomine:
For what it's worth, for a good many years, especially in the 80s and 90s we had droves of people moving to Nashville from Southern California, specifically from the Los Angeles area.
Nearly all of them seemed to love it here, thought the 'quality of life' was fabulous, the scenery beautiful...and the natives extremely friendly.
Of course those were the ones who were fed up with life in Southern Cal to begin with so it was I suppose a self-selecting group of malcontents who couldn't hack it on the coast.
Still...
Hey, anyplace that has its own full-scale replica of the Parthenon is okay by me.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I think it's not actually full-scale, but it's pretty nice anyway. The setting is perhaps a little discordant. But Nashville is such a lovely hilly, green, tree-filled city with beautiful rolling hill horsey burbs. Enough altitude and far enough north to make Autumn really lovely. And there's a good univeristy population there, as well as enough corporate folk from all over the country (and no doubt increasingly from all over the world).
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
Also, years ago I would visit friends in Ohio driving up from the South. North of Cincinnati there was a farm off the interstate that flew the largest Confederate Battle Flag I have ever seen.
I can tell you that for a nominally Northern city Cincinnati has quite a high proportion of ignorant, hostile people, redneck and otherwise. I grew up in the South and never saw the kind of poisonous hatred of "others" (blacks, Mexicans, Muslims) down home that I do up here.
Of course I did grow up in one of those like-minded enclaves that Lietvuos mentions.
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New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898
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Posted
Nashville is a lovely city with a liberal bent. But, ugh! Every other radio station has a fundamentalist screaming preacher.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Fortunately I haven't spent enough time there to discover that. Not to worry -- I'm sure they have NPR and at least a couple of tolerable FM stations, at least one of which should play indie/alternative rock.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
Here's what I like about the South. Can we talk about Cajun's? Do they like old hillbilly women?
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
... I'm... impressed by some of the Southern restraint shown on this thread... I've been put off by some of the Yankee and UK prejudices... appalled by some of the attitudes expressed by our gun-totin', rootin'-tootin' Southern cousins...
... If anyone's going to get me to wrap myself in a Confederate flag, eat grits and crawfish and run around... hollerin' 'Yee-haw!'... it'd be Janine...
Actually, though I feel I have a really good grasp of the many positives in the "redneck" parts of the country, it's only because the Oilfields, Shipyards and Tourism bring so many outsiders down here -- and because Daddy was a Navy man and found him a girl from Appalachia when he was up at Norfolk -- and because, just in general, there's much similarity linking any sort of country and small town folk -- and, well, a compelling, competent man is an interesting man, and, erm, "smells" the same no matter the field in which you consider him -- ("Yeah, that's a real gun in that gun rack! No, I don't have a permit for it! You got a permit to ask stupid questions?")
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Actually, I look at the redneck element as a useful cousin, me living the Cajun half of my heritage. And having somewhat of a sense of place from that -- some of the ancestors having been booted out of Nova Scotia, and the main line through Grandpere Cletus coming straight here from a French fishing village almost 200 years back.
When Cousin Redneck acts up and starts waving a Confederate flag, I would never wrap myself or anyone else up in it -- but, I am tolerant of him. Probably because that flag reminds me that the War Between the States was at least the second time my region was invaded by Northern Aggressors.
Ma Louisianne was purchased by that there Jefferson, and all those alien Americans poured down the River; it became worse after the Civil War, but it had already been a long-established sorrow.
Ah, well, enough. Turning back to the OP a bit -- That's What I Like About Sunday --
Yes, there's hope.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Sine Nomine
Ship's backstabbing bastard
# 66
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I think it's not actually full-scale
It is indeed full scale and was originally built as an exhibition building for the Tennessee Centennial Exposition in 1897.
It was thought to be an appropriate symbol because Nashville was called 'the Athens of the South' due to its large number of educational institutions.
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Precious, Precious, Sweet, Sweet Daddy...
Posts: 16639 | From: lat. 36.24/lon. 86.84 | Registered: Dec 2002
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not one of those who sees all Mid-West/Southern US Christians as hootin' an' a hollerin' Appallachian snake handlers. But it does strike me that there's a conservative, fundamentalist, South Baptist/Pentecostal 'Left Behind' type hegemony down there that is far from healthy in many respects.
But I'm on this side of the Pond. And have only visited New York.
What are the views/insights of those who live there or who know it well?
Gamaliel
I'm Asheville WC born and raised with family roots here going back a couple of hundred years, or so.
To sum up what I've read thus far in this thread, folks posting here don't seem to know us very well, especially if their thinking includes West Carolina.
While there are "hootin' an' a hollerin' Appallachian snake handlers . . . conservative, fundamentalist, South Baptist/Pentecostal 'Left Behind' types", so what? If that is what some folks believe, then that's what they believe. I'm not a Baptist/Pentecostal Left Behind kind of guy, but I've never seen a problem with folks being honest with me. Asheville has also been proclaimed by Rolling Stone magazine as the Freak Capital of the US, so it's ok to let your freak flag fly.
We seem to run the gamut here, so maybe the use of the word 'hegemony' is a bit much.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
About the Civil War:
1. If it was about states' rights, then chief among the rights in question was slavery.
2. The South started it, at Fort Sumter.
3. The Union didn't do all the invading in the Civil War. The South invaded the North, entering Maryland and Pennsylvania, and was turned back at Gettysburg. (The Confederates captured some 40 black folks in Pennsylvania, mostly freemen, and sent them south into slavery.) Confederate forces also entered Missouri, Kentucky, Indian Territory, New Mexico Territory and Arizona Territory.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
About the Civil War:
1. If it was about states' rights, then chief among the rights in question was slavery.
2. The South started it, at Fort Sumter.
3. The Union didn't do all the invading in the Civil War. The South invaded the North, entering Maryland and Pennsylvania, and was turned back at Gettysburg. (The Confederates captured some 40 black folks in Pennsylvania, mostly freemen, and sent them south into slavery.) Confederate forces also entered Missouri, Kentucky, Indian Territory, New Mexico Territory and Arizona Territory.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Y*nkees. Cain't live with 'em.
Cain't shoot 'em.
Anymore. ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
As far as RuthW's point #3 goes, it should be remembered that the Confederacy's extra-territorial ambitions were spelled out symbolically in the now notorious Confederate battle flag. Despite the fact that only eleven states attempted secession, the flag has thirteen stars, representing the Confederacy's view that it had a "natural" claim on the non-secessionist states of Missouri and Kentucky.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
OK, a more serious response.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
1. If it was about states' rights, then chief among the rights in question was slavery.
No one said that slavery was not an issue. But it was by no means the only issue. The entire tax system was keenly debated for the entire time from the adoption of the Constitution until the War. Who had the power to tax, the states? the Federal government? Both? What is the legitimate role to the central government? How much power does the Constitution actually permit the central government?
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
2. The South started it, at Fort Sumter.
You could just as easily say that John Brown started it at Harper's Ferry, or the settlers in "Bloody" Kansas started it, or the Founding fathers started it by not abolishing slavery back in 1789.
The United States were clearly doomed to war by the late 1850s. The election of Lincoln (by far less than a majority of popular votes) only sealed the deal.
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
3. The Union didn't do all the invading in the Civil War. The South invaded the North, entering Maryland and Pennsylvania, and was turned back at Gettysburg. (The Confederates captured some 40 black folks in Pennsylvania, mostly freemen, and sent them south into slavery.) Confederate forces also entered Missouri, Kentucky, Indian Territory, New Mexico Territory and Arizona Territory.
Lee invaded Pennsylvania (what? 50 miles if that?) after Grant and co. had captured all of the Mississippi River save Vicksburg (which fell the same day as the Battle of Gettysburg) I don't recall Lee burning a 20 mile wide swath of complete destruction all the way to the sea.
Maryland was a Southern state which did not secede only because the US Army posted a garrison surrounding the capital and would not let the duly elected legislature vote on the issue.
Kentucky, likewise was a Southern state, but their own indecisiveness prevented them from taking a vote until the war was already raging on their soil.
Missouri was deeply divided, and there was a strong faction pushing for secession there as well.
The western territories were claimed by the Confederacy from a line along the southern border of Missouri west to California. They were sending their troops into lands which they legitimately claimed to be their own.
Against the backdrop of a War which claimed over 600,000 lives, the fate of 40 captured freemen is small potatoes, relatively speaking.
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Campbellite
Ut unum sint
# 1202
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Confederacy's view that it had a "natural" claim on the non-secessionist states of Missouri and Kentucky.
Maryland and Kentucky, but your point still stands.
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I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?
Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
Maryland was a Southern state which did not secede only because the US Army posted a garrison surrounding the capital and would not let the duly elected legislature vote on the issue.
Maryland had a secession convention in February of 1861, of which the only result was a document that condemned secession as unconstitutional. Two months later in the wake of the fall of Fort Sumter the Maryland legislature met in special session in Frederick to debate the matter of secession, and voted it down. A contemporary article is available in the online archive of the New York Times (PDF format). The idea that the Maryland legislature couldn't vote on the issue because of federal troop activity is a pure fabrication of Confederate propaganda. They did vote on it, and voted in the negative. The fact that some may find this historically inconvenient doesn't make it not so.
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
Kentucky, likewise was a Southern state, but their own indecisiveness prevented them from taking a vote until the war was already raging on their soil.
Some wag, observing the prevalence of Confederate flags in Kentucky, postulated that they must have joined the Confederacy in 1866.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
The wag who taught me high school history found the prevalence of confederate battle flags in West Virginia highly amusing.
It's a cultural thing. I think by modern standards, West Virginia is culturally in "the South" even though it was technically a union state. It's certainly Appalachian, and contains a large population of so-called rednecks.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Seraphim:
Xenophobic. Personally I don't find this to be true in its extremes, but there is a definite sense, especially in rural areas that if you aren't from there, then you aren't from there. In order to really be from a place a] your ancestors had to have settled it, b) your family has been in the area approaching a century....if your great grandparents are in the local church graveyard, you are from there, and have a certain natural right. Even if you've moved off for your whole life...and came back, if your family is rooted there, then you belong entirely. If your family is more recent, then you may be fully accepted but your roots in the community are more incidental, not so tight knit....its a nuance.
But it is not a hateful mindset. It is very welcoming of the stranger. It only grows intolerant when the stranger tries to challenge or change local ways.
Yep. The phrase "they've bringin' with 'em what they left behind" comes to mind. It always raises the question of "If it was better where you're from, why'd you move here?"
quote:
Though there is a lot of diversity in the South it is for all that a distinct culture closely related to that of the Appalachians, and it is largely a Scots-Anglo culture, heavy on the Scots. The only people who wear more plaid live in Seattle, and the only people with more Mc/Macs in their name hail from Scotland or Ireland. The South at heart is agrarian Celtic. That tells you a lot about everything else.
There are more people of Scottish ancestory in North Carolina than Scotland. Interesting you mention Seattle. Years ago when I saw my first grunge videos I was wondering why musicians from Seattle were dressing like us hillbillies.
quote:
The point is, we were invaded, made to feel it, and not let to forget it...and we haven't. We don't like yankee interlopers for much of the same reason the rest of the world resents the "ugly american" Brash, know it all, disrespectful, meddlesome, garishly wealthy and willing to spend gobs of money to remake you in his image for your own good. No thank you. When the world says Yankee Go Home, they mean it pretty much the way it is meant in the south...except we resent being lumped in with the yankees.
It's true that many yankees seem to have moved here to work pissing folks off down to a fine art. Otoh, some of the finest folks I've met are from the north. I'd feel like I was insulting them if I called them a yankee.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
I've also never heard anyone use the word "redneck" as an insult who knew what they were talking about.
If it doesn't come from a smiling face with a southern sound, it comes across as an insulting put down.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I went to high school in Lubbock, TX and in order to graduate a year early I attended an accelerated summer programme in a Church of Christ high school that provided all my senior year academic requirements (and some of their's too, like two summer semesters of Bible).
That's interesting. We have kids at a COC university in Nashville.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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fionn
Shipmate
# 8534
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Posted
Rugasaw - I am from LeFlore County. What county are you from?
Croesus - Missouri, Kentucky, and Maryland were slave states. Lincoln prevented Md from seceding by occupying Annapolis and Baltimore and arresting many members of the legislature as well as the mayor and most of the city council of Baltimore.
The Cherokee were divided over more than which side to support. Stan Watie of the Southern faction was also a leader of the faction that left Georgia before Jackson forced the bulk of the tribe out.
The Choctaw were removed from Mississippi from 1831 through 1833 (dates approximate). The 1832 Choctaw census number ~36000 (some sources give different numbers). In 1836 the number in Oklahoma, Arkansas, and Texas numbered less than 20000 despite the humanitarian efforts of the general in charge (non sarcastic). He permitted the Choctaw scheduled to depart in the second wave to delay their departure until after a cholera epidemic had passed. However over 1/2 of the tribe perished in the removal.
Jackson complimented the official in charge on the successful removal and noted that 'no human lives had been lost'.
Posts: 179 | From: horsecountry | Registered: Sep 2004
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I went to high school in Lubbock, TX and in order to graduate a year early I attended an accelerated summer programme in a Church of Christ high school that provided all my senior year academic requirements (and some of their's too, like two summer semesters of Bible).
That's interesting. We have kids at a COC university in Nashville.
The emphasis should be understood as my desperation to put the high school experience behind me and get out of Lubbock! About half the summer enrollment were public school kids doing the same thing as I. This was a money-making thing for the school, since they didn't allow their own students to graduate through that course, though it was possible under state law and the total number of academic credits that were then required. The summer involved all of senior English, US government, Texas history and government, Old and New Testament. The high school, Lubbock Christian HS, was associated with Lubbock Christian (CoC) College which has now for many years been Lubbock Christian University (much overshadowed, of course, by the state institution, Texas Tech University).
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
The emphasis should be understood as my desperation to put the high school experience behind me and get out of Lubbock!
Just like Mac Davis, eh?
[ 07. May 2009, 13:23: Message edited by: Mere Nick ]
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Haven't heard of him in years! Was he the one who wrote the lyric referring to "Lubbock in my rear view mirror"?
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Haven't heard of him in years! Was he the one who wrote the lyric referring to "Lubbock in my rear view mirror"?
Yep. Until you mentioned going to school there, I hadn't heard of Lubbock in years, either.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
The more interesting musical talent from "the Hub of the Plains" being Buddy Holly, of course.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
The more interesting musical talent from "the Hub of the Plains" being Buddy Holly, of course.
Correct you are, sir.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Crœsos
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# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fionn:
Croesus - Missouri, Kentucky, and Maryland were slave states. Lincoln prevented Md from seceding by occupying Annapolis and Baltimore and arresting many members of the legislature as well as the mayor and most of the city council of Baltimore.
You left out Delaware.
The arrest of Mayor Brown of Baltimore took place in May, well after the secessionist special session of the legislature described above, and only after Brown used the Maryland state militia to disable the railroad bridges into Baltimore. (Brown claimed he acted on the authority of Governor Hicks, Hicks denied this.) BTW, one of the reasons the session was called in Frederick was to avoid the appearance of pressure by the federal troops in Annapolis. If you've got any citation to make on the arrest of members of the Maryland legislature prior to the April special session, please provide it.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
Actually, my peers and I used to refer to Lubbock as the buckle of the Bible belt, though I understand several places could lay claim to that. With that in mind, the culture in Lubbock really isn't Southern per se. The place is more the southerly extension of the Great Plains and hence influenced by a particularly conservative version of Midwestern farming culture. The Church of Christ and Baptists have an almost complete hegemony over Christianity there (I'm reasonably sure it hasn't changed much since 1973 when I last lived there)and are, of course, major rivals, both competing forms of anabaptist protestantism. In a place like that you have an interesting continuum of intellectual to anti-intellectual strains amongst the CoC and Baptists. Lubbock was pioneer country at the turn of the C20 and there continue to be elements of very raw nature that can't be tamed -- the dust storms there being first and foremost. Winds sweep up enormous quantities of dirt from the vast agricultural fields, swirl them around in the lower atmosphere, and blow grit over everyone and everything (I can recall getting grit in my mouth as I walked from the school building to my car and endlessly trying to clean the swimming pool to my parents' satisfaction after these dust storms). The place is so devoid of natural beauty - apart from the sunsets - that the hegemony of puritanical versions of protestantism seems entirely in keeping with that environment.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
Croesos: that's true, although almost all of Delaware's African-American population were free by the time of the Civil War. A small number of blacks were still in bondage, almost entirely in lower Delaware, the agricultural part of the state. By contrast, upper Delaware was dominated by manufacturing from the beginning of the C19 and was significantly populated by Quakers, with a strong abolitionist movement. In that sense, the state historically contained within itself the whole socioeconomic North-South divide. Delaware was the only one of the border states not to send any organised troops to fight for the South. The governor at the time of Southern secession commented that Delaware, being the first state to join the Union (the first to ratify the Constitution more accurately) would be the last to leave it.
[ 07. May 2009, 14:06: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
Oh great...now we are fighting the Civil War all over again.
I don't think the Southern position has changed in the nearly 150 years since the war.
Dang Longstreet, if Stonewall Jackson had been with Lee at Gettysburg, we would have won the war.
Actually the figures of Lee, Longstreet, and Jackson discount entirely the earlier notion of the Army of Northern Virginia acting like the Celts fighting the Romans. Lee was not Scots-Irish. He was a brilliant tactician who outsmarted numerous Union Generals and defeated an army that was sometimes three times the size of his own. Consider the Battle of Fredericksburg, the confederates under Longstreet fortified their position and waited for countless Union soldiers to march aimlessly to their death. The Civil War general most acting like the Celts against the Romans was Ulysses S. Grant in the Wilderness campaign. It just happened to work that time.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Crœsos
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# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Matins:
Dang Longstreet, if Stonewall Jackson had been with Lee at Gettysburg, we would have won the war.
Even if he'd been there, he's have been dead at that point. What exactly do you think zombie Jackson could have done?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Barefoot Friar
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# 13100
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Posted
I think Matins was speculating on how things would have turned out had Jackson not been shot in 1863. Lee commented, "He has lost his left arm, but I have lost my right."
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
It might be well to clarify that he was shot accidentally by Southern infantry, had his left arm amputated but died within a couple of weeks from pneumonia.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Yes, sir, you are correct. However, most historians I have read agree that the pneumonia was a complication of his amputation. Besides, the distinction does not change the point: Had Jackson not died in 1863, what might have happened at Gettysburg?
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
Oh, but let's not go there! Surely it doesn't fit into the remit either of this thread or of Purg generally.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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New Yorker
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# 9898
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Posted
Slight tangent, if you please.
I have never been to Lubbock. Is it true that the public water smells and taste so bad that it is as if God had cursed the place?
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