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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: So why isn't the Christian life a joy?
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
But even if some "get away with it" the danger is real - often kinds of danger we can't recognize but God can just because God knows more (and because we tend to not believe God).
Do people and groups add silly extra burdensome rules? You betcha. Demand to know the purpose of any suggested rule. If it doesn't have a goal of advancing your health (physical mental, relational), it's not a God rule. "Christians shouldn't enjoy life" is not a God-value, so rules based on nonsense like this aren't from God.
But unlearning the imposed un-Godly "rules" can be real hard.
Isn't that a contradiction? If God's rules are to prevent "danger we can't recognize but God can just because God knows more", how can we "know the purpose of any suggested rule"? I mean if "because God knows more than you" is a valid explanation anything could be justified.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
So why isn't the Christian Life a joy for all those who live it? Why does it so often seem like a hideous trudge through the lonely streets of faithfulness while on the other side of the block the party is in full swing on the avenues of fun and jollity?
I don't know. But I have to say it does make me feel a tiny bit better to know that someone else feels this way.
Posts: 993 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Oct 2008
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
Trudy:
quote:
The only "fun" leisure activities specifically forbidden to Christians would be those that I would argue create more harm than joy.
Am I missing your point somehow?
I think you are missing the point of christianity - speaking as one who can't really claim to still be a believer.
The emphasis of Jesus' teaching was "take up your cross and follw me". It is meant to be a sacrificial religion. Paul sought fellowship in the suffering of Christ and the emphasis is on "the joy set before us", and the joy we have now is largely dependent on this. As Marvin said, it is a religion of abnegation, and whilst that can involve joy,it is a special type of joy.
We are not meant to be masochists, or to enjoy crucifixion ("I am crucified with Christ, yet . .").
Which is precisely why is doesn't work for me, since it will not work if you do not really believe it. Not without any doubt ever - that's impossible, but with a faith strong enough to be your comfort. I don't have that, and do not see why I should think this a weakness which I need to change. But I do suspect that a lot of christians are hanging on with a semi-faith, which is why they live non-sacrificial lives little like the life of Christ. Then the only joy they (we) can find is that same as for everyone else: friends, life in general, whatever.
And you could always try getting a cat.
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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Eckadimmock
Apprentice
# 14214
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Posted
You may also want to consider why so many people, having sampled the fleshpots of youth, still seek Christ.
As someone who did, I would say that it's like choosing exercise and a low fat diet over pizza and TV, long term benefit over instant gratification. Also, however difficult it is, it happens to be true.
That said, the guy who influenced me most when I was still a know-it-all atheist was an American who liked to drink and party, and did not appear to have been celibate. However, he was kind, generous and understanding, certainly not pious and judgmental. he was Christian where it counted.
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"I had rather walk, as I do, in daily terror of eternity, than feel that this was only a children's game in which all the contestants would get equally worthless prizes in the end." T.S. Elliot
Posts: 41 | From: Sydney | Registered: Oct 2008
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Trin
Shipmate
# 12100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
It's not so much about what I resent not having done as why the Christian Life has nothing on offer with which to replace them. It's full of "Thou Shalt Not"s with no "Thou Shalt"s to take their place.
I presume we are talking more about ideology than actually finding things to do with your time.
In that case, I see the problem. God has asked us to shift the focus off ourselves and now we don't know where to put it, except that we probably do know really. I can't quite imagine what my life would look like if I really tried to put it into practice. I'm going to start trying it as an experiment very soon though.
But yeah, if the focus is nowhere, or if its on ourself but we know it shouldn't be then I think we'll be dissatisfied with how we feel and what we're getting out of it. Kind of like having enough of God to mess up the enjoyment of sin, and enough of sin to mess up the enjoyment of God.
A couple of things I like to read sometimes:
This post by Tom Clune.
This article: 5 things you think will make you happy (but wont).
Posts: 442 | From: UK | Registered: Nov 2006
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kid Who Cracked:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
(1 Cor. 15:19)
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
That about sums it up, imho: the "joy" is supposed to come after we leave mortality. Face it, Christianity is self abnegation.
Where would that leave, "I have come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly," or joy being a fruit of the Spirit?
Not only that, but that verse (ISTM) has little to do with what we're discussing here. It comes in the middle of a passage where Paul's defending the preaching of the resurrection. He's saying that if Jesus didn't rise again then we've no hope and, if we're trusting in Him for this life only whilst believing we're hoping for a future resurrection, then we're to be pitied because we're hoping for something that ain't gonna happen.
It's little or nothing to do with how joyful our Christian life is supposed to be.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
Posts: 1117 | From: Urmston, Manchester, UK | Registered: Jul 2008
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
Trudy:
quote:
The only "fun" leisure activities specifically forbidden to Christians would be those that I would argue create more harm than joy.
Am I missing your point somehow?
I think you are missing the point of christianity - speaking as one who can't really claim to still be a believer.
Yeah, I think I'm going to pass on the suggestion that because I enjoy my life as a Christian, I'm missing the point of my faith.
The fact is that both aspects are there in the Biblical depiction of Christianity -- self-denial, and also joy. There are Bible texts that emphasize the hardship of the life of faith, and there are texts that empahsize the joy. Both are present in the life of Christ -- He was the Man of Sorrows, but also wished for His disciples that they might know His joy. And in the lives of great Christians throughout the ages we see some whose lives have been characterized by great joy and some by great sorrow and suffering.
I think both are clearly part of the Christian experience, and at different times in our lives some of us will experience more of one than the other. And some people, generally, due to personality type or life experience, are just going to experience more joy, or more sorrow. But that goes back to my original statement that the people who experience a lot of suffering in their Christian lives would probably be fairly unhappy as non-believers, but hopefully their faith will give them some consolation. While those who are happy as Christians might also be fairly happy as non-Christians -- but hopefully their faith will give more depth and purpose to their lives.
So, you know, sue me for not being St. John of the Cross, but that's just not been my experience.
I'm not sure how we feel -- happy or unhappy -- is really the point of our religion, even though I do believe an individual person's life should be better and more meaningful with Christ than without.
But I'm still curious about the situation outlined in the OP, where non-Christian friends are off having such a great time from which the Christian feels wistfully excluded.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
And I wasn't a totally joyful christian because, to be honest, I didn't believe half of it. Not really.
That's probably very pertinent to my current situation.
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
I've yet to be convinced that most of the stereotypically "nonChristian" leisure activities (sleeping around, drug/alcohol abuse, maybe a bit of petty crime) are all that conducive to joy, but I've lived a bit of a sheltered life.
Well, all I can say is the people I see doing those things certainly seem to be having a better time than I am.
quote:
Originally posted by Trin:
Kind of like having enough of God to mess up the enjoyment of sin, and enough of sin to mess up the enjoyment of God.
That sounds pretty accurate as well.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Jon G
Shipmate
# 4704
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Posted
So tell me these lads aren't having fun!?
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At the dark end of the street
Posts: 182 | From: Newcastle west | Registered: Jul 2003
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Well, all I can say is the people I see doing those things certainly seem to be having a better time than I am.
I sincerely doubt that. In fact, I'd say that drug abuse, or getting drunk, or moving from girl to girl, they are all signs that something is missing, that the people doing these things seek to fill a void that cannot be filled, to find satisfaction that lasts, and, instead of that, they find substitutes of a very low quality, substitutes that do not fill the void, which is why the person is always craving for more and more.
In other words, appearances can be very deceptive, and I'd doubt you are worse than them. On the other hand, the problem is that the forms of Christianity on the market have obviously little to do with Christ, since they do not fill man either..... This is an even greater tragedy, because fake forms of Christianity, man-made forms (and thus not fulfilling) are dominating the religious market.........
One last comment. What prevents you from doing these things? Surely not God. You are very free to do whatever you want. God doesn't impose laws on mankind, God doesn't judge. God suggests a life of very high quality. It's idols of God that are imposed on us that we need to overthrow, and we need to realize what God truly wants from us, rather than assume that He is a tyrant of some sort, who oppresses us and doesn't want us to have fun!
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jon G:
So tell me these lads aren't having fun!?
Hey, if it wasn't for playing my guitar in the music group I'd have given up on church years ago.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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glockenspiel
Shipmate
# 13645
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Well, all I can say is the people I see doing those things certainly seem to be having a better time than I am.
I sincerely doubt that. In fact, I'd say that drug abuse, or getting drunk, or moving from girl to girl, they are all signs that something is missing ...
Feeling deprived of wine, women and song is also a sign that something is missing ~ namely, wine, women and song.
Posts: 1258 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Apr 2008
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:
Feeling deprived of wine, women and song is also a sign that something is missing ~ namely, wine, women and song.
Really? So, how many women do you want so that you don't feel deprived of women? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Seriously now, I didn't say wine, I said getting drunk. I didn't say anything about singing. I did say something about drugs. And moving from girl to girl.
Take girls for example. If you find fulfillment with one particular girl, you won't change ten girls in one month, will you?
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
But I'm still curious about the situation outlined in the OP, where non-Christian friends are off having such a great time from which the Christian feels wistfully excluded.
Am I being cynical that I read it to mean 'My friends are having casual sex, binge drinking and using recreational drugs and they are happy as Larry with no apparent ill effects?'
To which my response is that I don't buy it. If one makes a habit of any one of those things, one definitely suffers the ill effects eventually.
As to the suggestion that a Christian must always choose the way of suffering even if God slaps them in the face with good fortune: Spherical objects.
As to the suggestion that anything that is not specifically cultic-Christian (using the word 'cultic' in its sociological sense) is forbidden to Christians: More spherical objects.
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
if it wasn't for playing my guitar in the music group I'd have given up on church years ago.
Religion is about making sense of our life experience. The claims and counter claims - Christianity should be this, Christians should live like that - are only generalisations of how other people have chosen to live, attempts to justify their preferences and insecurities as if they had some ultimate value.
I see church as a channel through which I can co-operate with others who share my values. The Christian labels and culture, although sometimes seriously irritating and distracting, are really only noises off. The 'joy', the deep satisfaction, comes through discovering and participating in the subversive undercurrents in any still-living church, looking to kick over the stagnant traces as new things take shape, however slowly and painfully, around the dead and dying wood.
I guess it's seeing church as active rather than a passively-received religion. Engaging with what is in order to contribute to what it might become. It seems to me that's all Jesus did. Why should authentic Christianity be more?
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by glockenspiel:
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Well, all I can say is the people I see doing those things certainly seem to be having a better time than I am.
I sincerely doubt that. In fact, I'd say that drug abuse, or getting drunk, or moving from girl to girl, they are all signs that something is missing ...
Feeling deprived of wine, women and song is also a sign that something is missing ~ namely, wine, women and song.
I drink, I'm married and I sing. I'm a Christian.
I wouldn't say I'm especially joyful (although I'm generally content, which isn't bad going), but then I have plenty of Christian and non-Christian friends, some of whom are more joyful and some of whom are less joyful than me.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Rat
Ship's Rat
# 3373
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Posted
Marvin, do you think that joy is a feature of a non-Christian life, and that that joy is being witheld from you by your Christianity? Or is that you think your Christian life should be more joyful than the alternatives, and are disappointed that it has failed to be so?
To be honest, I doubt that the level of joy in the average person's life has a great deal to do with their religious affiliation. IME, at least, most of the activities commonly considered unnacceptable to Christianity do not, in and of themselves, bring joy*, and many activities or situations which would be perfectly allowable may do, in the right circumstances.
I suspect that (outside of the inevitable periods of grief and pain that afflict everybody, Christian or not) the level of joy you experience has a lot to do with your attitude and how you open yourself up to it. If you really feel that your life is such a joyless, miserable slog then I suspect it has little to do with your religion, and would not change if you chucked that religion. If your life is really so shit and makes you so miserable, I'd give some series thought to changing it. Or even, ahem, seeking some help to change yourself and your outlook. I very much doubt that indulging in... whatever it is you feel prevented from doing?... is going to bring you joy in itself.
* though they may sometimes be fun. But not always, and that's not the same thing as joy, is it?
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It's a matter of food and available blood. If motherhood is sacred, put your money where your mouth is. Only then can you expect the coming down to the wrecked & shimmering earth of that miracle you sing about. [Margaret Atwood]
Posts: 5285 | From: A dour region for dour folk | Registered: Oct 2002
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
Never underestimate the oppressive power of religion, Rat.
Sin is a mixture of good and bad, it's not, as many people assume, something bad in itself. So, when someone says to people "don't sin" and doesn't gives to them something more fulfilling in the place of sin, then this leads to a horrible, to an unbearable life.
At least sin has the benefit of something good in it.
And frankly, there are forms of Christianity that, not knowing Christ, preach exactly that. They can't give Christ to the people, because they do not have Christ, so this leaves the people in an unbearable condition. And that's just wrong.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
I suspect that (outside of the inevitable periods of grief and pain that afflict everybody, Christian or not) the level of joy you experience has a lot to do with your attitude and how you open yourself up to it. If you really feel that your life is such a joyless, miserable slog then I suspect it has little to do with your religion, and would not change if you chucked that religion. If your life is really so shit and makes you so miserable, I'd give some series thought to changing it. Or even, ahem, seeking some help to change yourself and your outlook. I very much doubt that indulging in... whatever it is you feel prevented from doing?... is going to bring you joy in itself.
I think Rat is saying pretty much the same thing I was trying to say, though much more clearly and succinctly (as people generally do).
Without wanting to make it too personal, Marvin (although you did start the OP with references to your personal experience, so I assume that's not entirely out of bounds), I think I recall also seeing you hold forth here on the theory that one's working life is almost inevitably a grim, dreary slog from which one is released only by the coming of five o'clock, and that people who expect joy or fulfillment in their work are naive idealists.
If I'm remembering correctly, and not confusing you with another poster, then I think the problem is likely more systemic than simply your experience of Christianity taking all the fun out of your life, and Rat's suggestions might be worth some serious consideration.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
Um, I don't know about Marvin, but I think I'd have reservations about 'get some therapy' as an appropriate response to disillusionment with church.
[ 24. February 2009, 12:13: Message edited by: Dave Marshall ]
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
"Disillusionment with church" isn't what I got from the OP. I'd have a lot of different responses to disillusionment with church, but the impression I got from the OP was a more general disillusionment with life, and dissatisfaction that Christianity hadn't fixed that, but had possibly made it worse by denying some fun forms of escapism.
However, it's entirely possible I was misreading where Marvin was coming from.
Obviously if the problem were basically disillusionment with church, "try a different church" or "try doing church differently" would both be things you'd want to look at a long time before you'd recommend therapy. OTOH (and I'm not speaking specifically about Marvin here), if I knew a person who had been to seven quite different churches, and been unhappy in all of them, and was also unhappy in her work life and her personal relationships, I would start to suspect the problem went a bit broader and deeper than church.
[ 24. February 2009, 12:34: Message edited by: Trudy Scrumptious ]
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Woodworm
Shipmate
# 13798
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Posted
I drank, had casual sex and took drugs.
Was I miserable? Hell, no! I was having a ball! The only reason I don't do the same now is that I am happily married family-type person with a demanding job who doesn't have time for a 2-day ecstasy come-down. But, boy, it was fun.
I also went to Church every Sunday, prayed, and did a load of good works (again, far more than nowadays - don't have much time for that either).
I just can't take the private shalt-nots. Does the Lord God of the Universe give two hoots who this four-billionth ex-monkey sleeps with? Folks like Squiggly Andrew telling us that God has issued these commenadments for our own good is tiddly. You don't need God to lay down a rule that thou shalt not get pie-eyed. People can work out for themselves whether sex and drugs are good or bad without a spooky finger spelling it out on a stone tablet.
I was also an atheist for 48 hours, after reading The God Delusion.
The colour just drained from the World. Some atheists say they found the opposite on a de-conversion, but not me. I didn't mind the cold indifference of the Universe so much as the greyness of it all (mind, that may have been a reaction to Dawkins' Charles Atlas frontal-lobe-flexing routine, which would depress anyone).
In the Christian faith I feel cross, happy, sad, tired, energised, stare-at-the-wall, much like everyone. But predominently I feel joy. Not because I am "saved". Not for any special reason. Just joy.
Tell me what I am trying to say here! I think it is that Merlin, if you think that everyone is having fun except you, they probably are. So go out and have some. And at the same time pray, and love your neighbour, and sing, and praise God with all your heart and all your mind and all your soul.
![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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NUH MUH! Nuh.. muh...
Posts: 137 | From: the ship's fo'sicle | Registered: Jun 2008
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Woodworm:
Folks like Squiggly Andrew telling us that God has issued these commenadments for our own good is tiddly.
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
What prevents you from doing these things? Surely not God. You are very free to do whatever you want. God doesn't impose laws on mankind, God doesn't judge.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Woodworm
Shipmate
# 13798
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Posted
Fair call. Apologies.
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NUH MUH! Nuh.. muh...
Posts: 137 | From: the ship's fo'sicle | Registered: Jun 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
I'm not quite sure why so much space on this thread has been wasted on "whether Christians can drink and sleep around". Neither of these activities necessarily develop joy in the participants. In fact, there is lots of evidence to say that these activities may lead to LESS joy and more anxiety, as much as they may arise out of a lack of joy and/or an excess of anxiety. (Please note the qualifiers - obviously people can drink for some momentary happiness - but it is momentary)
The OP asked why Christians showed so little joy in their lives. If we have been given the greatest gift possible, and that gift can be received on only one condition (that you acknowledge it), why can we show so little happiness/joy/whatever attitude that might make someone else want to find out about it?
Quite a lot of the Salvation Army people (although not all!) can show a quiet contentment with their choice in life, despite the awful stuff they deal with. They may not be bubbling over with Falstaffian mirth at all times, but their lives show a form of joy.
But, for most of us, church is a duty on one day of the week, and otherwise doesn't leave any mark on our lives. We may be a little more likely to give something or to buy FairTrade or to do some other minor relatively painless activity, but we gather for Very Serious Reasons, we sing sad songs and we disapprove of far too much without offering any visible positive balance.
No wonder people turn to drink or physical interactions. They don't see the point of the alternative.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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CuppaT
Shipmate
# 10523
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Posted
This conversation is as old as the hills. Read Psalm 72/73.
Really, Christian Life is less about subtraction than it is about addition, or multiplication, or even exponential numbers. If we add time spent with One whom we love, then He will multiply the blessings toward us, seen or unseen. There will be battles, no doubt about that. There are dragons to kill and snakes to be driven out. The Ammonites have to be driven out and the Philistines conquered. The giants Og and Sihon have to be slain. Sin abounds in our lives, and the more we repent, the more we find to repent about. If ever once God opens our eyes to Heavenly things then earthly things really seem pale in comparison, and we spend our time on what is important to us, whether television or sports or prayer. We are not introspective all the time, though, but loving others around us, feeding the hungry and giving drink to the thirsty, showing hospitality to strangers, visiting the imprisoned, sometimes simply washing diapers and teaching the young.
Any Christian who thinks life will always be a joy is fooling himself. God does not promise an easy road. Grief can strike at any time. I have walked through Hell, and had it last for long stretches of time. All I could do was look at Jesus and cry out my trust in him. Peace was underlying, and joy was somewhere hibernating somewhere very deep down. Whether I would see it surface again in my lifetime or not, this I did not know. One of the verses that helped me most was the end of Psalm 15/16.
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Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see that you cannot bear it any longer, draw back a little and have a cup of tea.
~Elder Sophrony
Posts: 919 | From: the edge of the Ozarks | Registered: Oct 2005
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TomOfTarsus
Shipmate
# 3053
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Posted
Horseman Bree:
By George, you've done it again! Nicely put.
I was going to recommend this 9 step tongue-in-cheek process by the late Rich Mullins. It turns nicely serious, I hope those concerned "get" it.
Blessings,
Tom
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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
Take girls for example. [Assuming you're a straight male or a lesbian.] If you find fulfillment with one particular girl, you won't change ten girls in one month, will you?
Conversely, if you don't find fulfillment with one particular girl, do you still cling on to her like Grim Death because doing otherwise would be "moving from girl to girl", and we know from §Andrew that's something Christians don't do?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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TomOfTarsus
Shipmate
# 3053
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Posted
Cross-posted with CuppaT. Nicely put as well, sorry you've had such hard times, but can you agree that there is something trancendent about this joy - as opposed to mere happiness - that flies over the hard times? I mean, it's not like I haven't had hard times since my conversion, and I'm not pointing fingers or trying to figure out who had the harder time(s), it's just that that joy somehow burns through no matter how happy or sad I am at a given time. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) for you
Blessings,
Tom
and to Crœsos: No, not like Grim Death. If the Scriptures are anything at all to look at, they say He loves us, really loves us, and if He (like our mom or dad or whoever raised you) seems to want you not to be promiscuous, I figure it's because He loves me. Elementary, I know, but I'm a simple guy. ETA: AACK! And I messed the whole point. The point of such relationships is not to "fulfill yourself." What are they teaching in the schools these days?
[ 24. February 2009, 13:41: Message edited by: TomOfTarsus ]
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By grace are ye saved through faith... not of yourselves; it is the gift of God; not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath ... ordained that we should walk in them.
Posts: 1570 | From: Pittsburgh, PA USA | Registered: Jul 2002
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
One can be a depressed (or depressive) Christian. There are some types of Christianity which can aggrevate the depression (particularly those which claim that Christians shouldn't be depressed or that faith not anti-depressants should be used) but ignoring that, a depressed Christian isn't likely to be bouncier and more positive in outlook than a non-depressed non-Christian. A depressed Christian might be better off as a Christian than they would be as a non-Christian. I suspect I'd struggle more with my depression if I weren't a Christian.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Woodworm
Shipmate
# 13798
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Posted
TomofTarsus, don't know if you clocked the number of your post. Get thee behind me...!
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NUH MUH! Nuh.. muh...
Posts: 137 | From: the ship's fo'sicle | Registered: Jun 2008
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
I'm not quite sure why so much space on this thread has been wasted on "whether Christians can drink and sleep around".
I think I am responsible for most of that time-wasting, because I introduced those two examples (I think. Someone may have brought them up earlier, but I know I did use them). The OP expressed frustration about all the fun activities non-Christians were doing, from which Christians were prohibited, but chose not to give any examples (in fact, refused when asked). I was trying to imagine what those fun activities, not available to Christians, might be, and those were the examples I came up with (I also included drugs and petty crime). So far, no-one else has suggested any better examples of things that are apparently "fun" but which Christians are not allowed to do.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rat:
Or is that you think your Christian life should be more joyful than the alternatives, and are disappointed that it has failed to be so?
Well, yes. But isn't that a reasonable thing to expect? After all, if it's going to be less fun it may as well be more joyful. Can't God at least give us that?
By the way, I kind of resent the implication that if I'm not completely ecstatic about giving up the things of this world and following Christ it must be a psychological problem within me.
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
the impression I got from the OP was a more general disillusionment with life, and dissatisfaction that Christianity hadn't fixed that, but had possibly made it worse by denying some fun forms of escapism.
Not a million miles off. But Christianity claims to offer a "better way" to "true happiness", so why does it fail to deliver? Why is the "true happiness" so often anything but?
It may well be just that I'm a dour pessimist. Well, actually it's not: if anything I'm more of a nihilist, but that's beside the point. The point is that surely if Christianity is True then shouldn't the Holy Spirit be filling us with His joy or something?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Oreophagite
Shipmate
# 10534
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Posted
I asked the Lord that I might grow
In faith, and love, and every grace;
Might more of His salvation know,
And seek, more earnestly, His face.
’Twas He who taught me thus to pray,
And He, I trust, has answered prayer!
But it has been in such a way,
As almost drove me to despair.
I hoped that in some favored hour,
At once He’d answer my request;
And by His love’s constraining pow’r,
Subdue my sins, and give me rest.
Instead of this, He made me feel
The hidden evils of my heart;
And let the angry pow’rs of hell
Assault my soul in every part.
Yea more, with His own hand He seemed
Intent to aggravate my woe;
Crossed all the fair designs I schemed,
Blasted my gourds, and laid me low.
Lord, why is this, I trembling cried,
Wilt thou pursue thy worm to death?
“’Tis in this way, the Lord replied,
I answer prayer for grace and faith.
These inward trials I employ,
From self, and pride, to set thee free;
And break thy schemes of earthly joy,
That thou may’st find thy all in Me.”
John Newton
Posts: 247 | From: The Klipoth | Registered: Oct 2005
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Janine
The Endless Simmer
# 3337
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
... So why isn't the Christian Life a joy for all those who live it? Why does it so often seem like a hideous trudge... while on the other side of the block the party is in full swing... ?
Is there anything that can be done to make the Christian Life more joyful? Or is hoping against hope that one day church, charity and chastity will be joyful to us in and of themselves all we can do?
Answers depend on what the discuss-ers mean by the words they're using. What is "Christian", "Christian Life"? What is "happiness", what is "joyful"?
Perhaps there are people who read the Scriptures and histories of the Church, and somehow get the idea that those men, women and children in those accounts led hoppy skippy lives of sunshine and lollipops.
When I read that stuff, I do see happiness and joyfulness, beauty and humor and contentment happening. But all that wonderfulness is definitely interspersed amongst some agony.
When we follow a Leader whose very purpose and plan, in His coming to lead us, included a nasty, brutish, insulting, torturous death, it probably shouldn't shock us when we too have our darknesses.
If we find no joy in our Christian life -- there are any number of reasons why that may be so and any number of ways we might work on improving things.
Does the religious group we belong to seem to have a grip? Or are they touting an impossible viewpoint like "good Godly people do not suffer in this life"? Or are they, conversely, saying that wanting a life of contentment and deep abiding joy is somehow a bad thing? Are they focusing on drawing suffering like a lightning rod draws a charge, 'cause holy people cannot possibly be happy in this world?
Either extreme is useless.
Perhaps it's our own weirdnesses rather than our church's problem. Maybe we have an impossible view of what it means to be joyful. Maybe we have a chemical imbalance that tends to send us into gloom no matter what goes on around us.
Or maybe we really, truly do have a difficult life that would drive any normal person to despair. (It ain't paranoia if they really are out to get you.)
The only answers I see, for me or anyone else, lie with Jesus. What seemed to make Him happy? What seemed to make Him poke fun and say funny things? Conversely, what seemed to drive Him to despair?
Maybe I can court joy by being like Jesus. Maybe, while I'm waiting for things to lighten up in my Christian life, I can simply do the next right thing, rather than continuously straining to see through the gloom to something brighter.
Maybe I can serve others, helping with immediate needs while I tell them things my Father would have them know. Maybe I can draw joy from fellowship with people who are walking along with me.{Hah! Tell me, how are we gonna get that little irritating speck of sin out of Brother So-and-So's eye, with this telephone pole hanging out of our own eye? Let's call the tree removal company first, clear up our own storm damage, then we can get out the tweezers to help old Brother So-and-So!"}
And it's OK to have dark times. It's OK to despair. Jesus did. There are some things worth falling to our knees and weeping over.
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I'm a Fundagelical Evangimentalist. What are you?
Take Me Home * My Heart * An hour with Rich Mullins *
Posts: 13788 | From: Below the Bible Belt | Registered: Sep 2002
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I wonder if, to really understand the joy of being a child of God, we need to go to some people who have very little and see how they do it.
Every time someone I know comes back from Tanzania, Namibia, Uganda etc, they nearly always have the same two things to say. Firstly, they meet people often infested with AIDS or Malaria, struggling for food, drink and education; and secondly, the same people think nothing of gladly - so gladly - sharing what little they do have with others as a matter of Christian principle and spend hours in their churches on a Sunday - or whenever they worship -noisily praising God.
If so many Christians are able to feel genuine joy at belonging to God, yet having so little to be joyful about - according to our way of thinking - how come we with everything on offer find it hard to even raise a smile in church when it comes to shaking hands with the person next to us?
By the way as sexual promiscuity seems to be such an important part of some people's criteria of 'enjoying ourselves', again taking a look at some African countries, where it's practiced like it's going out of fashion in some cultures, this might suggest the rewards are a little short-lived and have rather fatal tendencies especially for the innocent.
Even in Britain promiscuity isn't risk-free, and while some people are undoubtedly enjoying themselves by sleeping around, the folks who end up catching their STDs probaby aren't.
However, we're talking about 'us', aren't we? Not the hundreds of millions of other people who share the world with us.
Maybe for some of us first-world Christians our lives are too cluttered with 'stuff', including lifestyle choices. And maybe we get more hang-ups as a result and find it harder to relate to the joy of salvation in God, in the childlike way Jesus recommended?
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Jack o' the Green
Shipmate
# 11091
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Posted
I've always liked this poem by Adrian Plass which addresses living a 'Christian Life'
When I became a Christian I said, "Lord, now fill me in,
Tell me what I’ll suffer in this world of shame and sin."
And He said, "Well, Your body may be killed, and left to rot and stink,
Do you still want to follow me?" I said, "Amen! – I think.
I think Amen, Amen I think, I think I say Amen,
I’m not completely sure, can you just run through that again?
You say, my body may be killed and left to rot and stink,
Well, yes, that sounds terrific, Lord, I say Amen – I think.
But, Lord look, there must be other ways to follow you,” I said,
“I really would prefer to end up dying in my bed."
"Well, yes," he said, "you could put up with sneers and scorn and spit,
Do you still want to follow me?" And I said, "Amen! – a bit.
A bit Amen, Amen a bit, a bit I say Amen,
I’m not completely sure, can you just run through that again?
You say I could put up with sneers and also scorn and spit,
Well, yes, I’ve made my mind up, and I say Amen! – a bit.
Well I sat back and thought a while, then tried a different ploy,
Now, Lord, I said, the Good Book says that Christians live in joy."
"That’s true," he said, "you’re gonna need the joy to bear the pain and sorrow,
So do you still want to follow me?" I said, "Amen! – tomorrow.
Tomorrow, Lord, I’ll say it then, that’s when I’ll say Amen,
You see I got to get it clear, could we just run through that again?
You said that I will need the joy, to bear the pain and sorrow,
Well, yes, I think I’ve got it straight, I’ll say, Amen – tomorrow."
He said, "Look, I’m not asking you to spend an hour with me,
A quick salvation sandwich and a cup of sanctity,
The cost is you, not half of you, but every single bit.
Now tell me, will you follow me?" And I said, "Amen! – No, I quit.
I’m very sorry, Lord, I said, I’d like to follow you,
But I don’t think religion is a manly thing to do."
And He said, "You forget religion then, and you think about my Son,
And you tell me if you’re man enough to do what he has done.
Are you man enough to see the need? Are you man enough to go,
Are you man enough to care for those whom no one wants to know?,
Are you man enough to say the thing that people hate to hear?
And battle through Gethsemane in loneliness and fear.
And listen! Are you man enough to stand it at the end,
The moment of betrayal by the kisses of a friend?
Are you man enough to hold your tongue? Are you man enough to cry?
And when the nails break your body – are you man enough to die?
Man enough to take the pain, and wear it like a crown,
Man enough to love the world and turn it upside down,
Are you man enough to follow me, I ask you once again"
I said, "Oh Lord, I’m frightened”, but I also said “Amen”.
Amen, Amen, Amen, Amen,"
I said," Oh Lord, I’m so frightened," but I also said, "Amen."
Posts: 3121 | From: Lancashire, England | Registered: Feb 2006
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
One of the problems with regarding disease as the righteous smiting God inflicts upon sinners is that it leads to the mindset of regarding any attempt to treat or prevent disease as interfering with God and allowing sinners to "get away with it". The same mindset can be seen in the rise in teen pregnancy rates in those American jurisdictions teaching "abstinence only" sex education.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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earrings
Shipmate
# 13306
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Posted
I've come to this thread a little late but I wondered if I'm the only person struck by this in the OP
quote:
Now, I don't think I'm alone in resenting those who "got the call" much later in life than me. It certainly does feel like they got to have their fun and be Saved while I had to knuckle down and behave myself almost from the start.
It sounds so very like what the elder brother says in the parable of the loving father (prodigal son). There were the pharisees and scribes hating the idea that Jesus would spend his time with tax-collectors and sinners, the johnny and jilly come latelies of religious experiece. The father reminds his older son (symbolic of those joyless pharisees????)that all that he has is his son's and that there is joy to be had, but the son cannot see that and seethes in furious resentment and angst.
Surely, even if we have sowed disappointingly few wild oats (from one perspective) we can stil be aware that we are much-beloved children of God.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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My blog musings on all sorts of stuff https://priscillavicar.wordpress.com/
Posts: 135 | From: West Midlands | Registered: Jan 2008
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Plus, it shows God's justice to be pretty uneven. e.g., as my dad used to say in the early days of AIDS, if AIDS is God's punishment on sinners, lesbians must be the Chosen People.
Which could be true, of course.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I hope there's nothing in my post that associated the natural consequences of sleeping about with God's smiting anyone! I can't imagine, eg, why God would want to smite the new-born kids infected with sexually transmitted AIDS, or their mothers unaware of the fact that their husbands were AIDS carriers. Or even why he should single out a promiscuous fornicator or adulterer, with a disease, when there are probably some much more dastardly candidates out there getting off scot-free!
Purely on a point of avoiding harm, it would make sense to avoid promiscuity, whether or not Christianity comes into it. But I guess for some of us part of the joy and fun of it, is the risk. Whether or own, or someone else's.
I think, too, it's true that abstention no longer seems to be a viable option for most potentially sexually active people - teenage or not. From society's point of view, our options for safe sexual behaviour seem to have reduced radically in past decades. It's sad but it's a fact to be faced.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by earrings:
It sounds so very like what the elder brother says in the parable of the loving father (prodigal son).
Don't get me started. I've worked my fucking tits off and denied myself for years to stay with you and serve you, and what do I get? Nothing! This waster spits in your face and pisses off with half your cash, and what does he get when he comes crawling back? A fucking party! Where's my fatted calf? Where's my party? Where's my fucking love? I wanted to be out there living it large as well, you know, but I chose to stay and do the right thing, the honourable thing. What was the bastard point of me being so fucking good if you're going to shit all over it like this? I wasted my life for nothing. Fuck you, and fuck your party.
oops. i got started.
Yeah, I identify with the elder brother. Shit, I am the elder brother.
quote:
we can stil be aware that we are much-beloved children of God.
woo.
[ 24. February 2009, 15:00: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I think, too, it's true that abstention no longer seems to be a viable option for most potentially sexually active people - teenage or not. From society's point of view, our options for safe sexual behaviour seem to have reduced radically in past decades. It's sad but it's a fact to be faced.
I think our options for safe sexual behavior have been radically increased over past decades, compared with eras when any STD was a lifelong infection and people still died of syphilis. Of course, that deprives moral scolds of finger-wagging opportunities, but it's an imperfect world. This argument was on display most recently when certain religious groups opposed making the HPV vaccine available because protecting against infection would encourage promiscuity. Yeah, some people would rather their daughters risk cervical cancer than deprive themsevlves of that fear lever.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
The problem isn't that Christians have chosen to avoid sleeping around, even if it might be fun.
The point is that most Christians are so busy finding ways to make themselves limited and/or unhappy that the Christian Way of Life looks pretty sad. There is always someone demanding that we sit and read some Bible verses together, or that we engage in a "weejus" prayer, or that we not indulge in something so natural as dancing for joy, or that we avoid reading a book by a non-Christian author, or that we sing a really tedious mind-numbing crap song (because it is Christian).
Why can't we LIVE?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kid Who Cracked:
quote:
Originally posted by MerlintheMad:
(1 Cor. 15:19)
19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
That about sums it up, imho: the "joy" is supposed to come after we leave mortality. Face it, Christianity is self abnegation.
Where would that leave, "I have come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly," or joy being a fruit of the Spirit?
Maybe joy is more like peace, at least here in this world. Life "more abundantly" seems to be referring to eternal life. Paul seems to recognize that the Christian lifestyle is one of denying many impulses/temptations/indulgences, i.e. makes Christians miserable when they compare themselves to the "partying" crowd of hedonists surrounding themselves: and trying to raise children whose friends think that they are weird for not partaking of the same "fun" stuff like everybody else: so if we find out on the other side of death, that our hope was only good for this life (i.e. is not reality in the eternal scheme of things), then our refusal to indulge ourselves fully in the mantra, "try anything once", makes our faith the most miserable lifestyle of all....
Posts: 3499 | Registered: Jan 2007
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
IME joy comes from "feeling found." When you are around people who think you are valued and necessary -- that no party would be complete without you -- and especially when you are doing things that the group would perceive to be valuable and necessary, and you can tell them about your activities and receive suggestions and praise -- that seems like a source of joy to me.
Small groups in churches (choir, guitar group, etc.) seem most likely to foster a sense of long-term joy. Eucharist is good too -- it reminds of the banquet to which you are invited, and strengthens you to do the good stuff.
Carys' post reminded me that not only individuals can be depressed; congregations can be depressed too. Worse, there can be a bad spirit within congregations which makes a faction of people determined to beat the joy out with a shovel. How you respond to that depends on your own strength and that of a group of people determined to be joyful anyway.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Yeah, I identify with the elder brother. Shit, I am the elder brother.
...and, having thought about it, maybe the reason the elder brother wasn't happy about the treatment given to the prodigal was purely because the life he had at home with his father (aka "God") lacked joy. Maybe if he'd had more of a joyful life with his father he'd have been more willing to celebrate when his brother returned?
I see that as quite an indictment of the father, tbh. If you expect your kids to stick around and serve you for life you may as well give them a few perks in the here and now rather than expecting them to toil uncomplainingly until you have the decency to pop your clogs and finally give them their reward...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
Marvin, I admire your honesty in identifying yourself with the elder brother. I hardly need tell you that you need a big ol' dose of generosity of spirit. Don't make enemies of the newly arrived; party with them, in a spirit of, "Isn't this great? Isn't the host great? What do you think of the veal?"
If joylessness and self-righteousness were the fruits of the elder brother staying on the farm, he would have done better to get his ass off it! Maybe by shaking things up, he would have understood his father better... who turns out not to be a reward-giver (dammit!) but a generous, patient, humble father.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
But even if some "get away with it" the danger is real - often kinds of danger we can't recognize but God can just because God knows more (and because we tend to not believe God).
Do people and groups add silly extra burdensome rules? You betcha. Demand to know the purpose of any suggested rule. If it doesn't have a goal of advancing your health (physical mental, relational), it's not a God rule. "Christians shouldn't enjoy life" is not a God-value, so rules based on nonsense like this aren't from God.
But unlearning the imposed un-Godly "rules" can be real hard.
Isn't that a contradiction? If God's rules are to prevent "danger we can't recognize but God can just because God knows more", how can we "know the purpose of any suggested rule"? I mean if "because God knows more than you" is a valid explanation anything could be justified.
I can see why you think it's a contradiction. Maybe I can explain better, maybe I can't.
Hmm, starting over, after killing what was getting way too long.
As little kids we don't understand Mommy's rules, because we just can't. But gradually we discover Mom and Dad had good reasons for (most of) their rules (even if because they are human we discover some were not helpful). We start being able to see the purposes for the rules, the advantages to us in following the rules.
So at first we can't understand, but we grow in understanding.
That understanding helps us apply the rules usefully, and reject false applications, or false rules.
Always ask for the purpose of a rule. Superficial answers like "because that's the rule" are for babies, not for grownups. If you (generic "you" throughout) get that answer, you are being treated like a baby.
Ask God the whys of God's rules (or of whatever you were told are God's rules). It may take a while, you may need to grow more before God can explain to you, and we (or I, anyway) grow slowly, but God will show you.
Meanwhile, having discovered God has really good joyful reasons for some of the rules, you can trust that God probably has similarly important reasons for other rules, and trust those rules even before understanding them. So there's a circle: explore, discover reason to trust, explore more, discover that one is still a puzzle, explore more, discover whoops that one has a whole different meaning than you had understood and you've been misapplying what you thought was a God rule, explore more, wow that one is a dynamite expression of God's love even though at first is seemed killjoy.
For most of us the circle starts with being told by others "God is good" and having to start with second hand trust, trust in our teacher to be telling us truth instead of trust directly in God. Exploring gets us relating to God directly instead of remaining dependent on a mere flawed human to teach us what God (supposedly) means.
Sigh, too long and probably reads like mush.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
joylessness and self-righteousness
Is that what it is? Or is it that the elder brother has never recieved anything like that amount of love from his father, despite actively loving and serving him? And that it's obviously going to hurt like hell when he sees the one who never showed any love for his father being treated better than he has ever been treated? How exactly should he react to that kind of rejection, that kind of slap in the face? How do you think it feels to not only suspect, but have it proved that your father loves your brother more than you?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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