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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: So why isn't the Christian life a joy?
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
One rule gives us more trouble than anything: how to love our neighbour. Would the following scenario ring any bells for anyone?
Can we have a party? Sure! Who wants to bring something? Who'll make the coffee? Well, I don't want to organize it. And J is mad because she made coffee last time, and she makes it all the time, plus it's not Fair Trade coffee, but that costs more so the church ladies don't like it... Ah, hell, I'll just go to the bar instead.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Marvin - I think you need to have a shouting match with God about this. Confront Him with the fact that you don't feel loved and that it hurts. Confront him with your sense that your life lacks joy - ask Him what he intends to do about it.
[ 24. February 2009, 16:26: Message edited by: Qlib ]
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I think, too, it's true that abstention no longer seems to be a viable option for most potentially sexually active people - teenage or not. From society's point of view, our options for safe sexual behaviour seem to have reduced radically in past decades. It's sad but it's a fact to be faced.
I think our options for safe sexual behavior have been radically increased over past decades, compared with eras when any STD was a lifelong infection and people still died of syphilis. Of course, that deprives moral scolds of finger-wagging opportunities, but it's an imperfect world. This argument was on display most recently when certain religious groups opposed making the HPV vaccine available because protecting against infection would encourage promiscuity. Yeah, some people would rather their daughters risk cervical cancer than deprive themsevlves of that fear lever.
Yeah, some people would. But that wouldn't be me. So I hope I'm not being associated with that viewpoint. Maybe I ought to have been more emphatic. Once upon a time it was perfectly normal and okay to say 'no' to sex. These days it's a freakish novelty. One less option, apparently, for safe sexual behaviour.
Safe sex, on the other hand, is certainly overflowing with options, greatly increased over the past years and thank God, too. I have no problems with that. For those who decide they want to have sex, I'm glad it's safer, as my comments above on the consequences of unsafe sex, I hope, would have implied.
Nevertheless, sexual behaviour does not have to include penetrative sex or indeed sexual activity of any sort. Human beings are allowed - or at least were allowed - to behave as sexual beings without it being assumed they were inevitably going to fuck. That's the point I'm making. The fact that we live in an age where being sexual is, imv, miscontstrued as all about having sex is, I'm afraid, backed up by your own misunderstanding of this point. Though I concede it's easily done.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Belle:
When you talk to God, that's called "prayer".
When God talks to you, that's called "schizophrenia".
My problem comes from the second leg of your informal "God's rules" flow chart, the process for rejecting rules falsely attributed to God. If the process of determining whether a rule is legitimate "may take a while" and "you may need to grow more before God can explain to you", how can you ever really reject a rule as not really from God? Maybe you just need more time to grow before you see that it was really right after all.
For example, if you're told that God's rules require a father to sell his daughter to her rapist you might say that was crazy. But under your system it could be argued that anyone so objecting just hadn't grown enough to understand the Godly benefits of marriages based on rape and commerce.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I think our options for safe sexual behavior have been radically increased over past decades, compared with eras when any STD was a lifelong infection and people still died of syphilis. Of course, that deprives moral scolds of finger-wagging opportunities, but it's an imperfect world. This argument was on display most recently when certain religious groups opposed making the HPV vaccine available because protecting against infection would encourage promiscuity. Yeah, some people would rather their daughters risk cervical cancer than deprive themsevlves of that fear lever.
Yeah, some people would. But that wouldn't be me. So I hope I'm not being associated with that viewpoint. Maybe I ought to have been more emphatic. Once upon a time it was perfectly normal and okay to say 'no' to sex. These days it's a freakish novelty. One less option, apparently, for safe sexual behaviour.
Ah, "once upon a time", the favorite setting for myths and færie tales! Unless by "perfectly normal" you mean something chosen by 10% of the population, as opposed to a "freakish novelty" practiced by only 5%. (Full study here. Warning: PDF) What's changed in recent years seems more to be people's honesty about what they're up to. Unless by "once upon a time" you mean "a time so remote it no longer exists in living memory and thus can't be contradicted by reliable data".
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
Safe sex, on the other hand, is certainly overflowing with options, greatly increased over the past years and thank God, too.
Perhaps some thanks could also be left over for thousands of medical researchers working diligently for years to improve the human condition?
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
I have no problems with that. For those who decide they want to have sex, I'm glad it's safer, as my comments above on the consequences of unsafe sex, I hope, would have implied.
Nevertheless, sexual behaviour does not have to include penetrative sex or indeed sexual activity of any sort. Human beings are allowed - or at least were allowed - to behave as sexual beings without it being assumed they were inevitably going to fuck. That's the point I'm making. The fact that we live in an age where being sexual is, imv, miscontstrued as all about having sex is, I'm afraid, backed up by your own misunderstanding of this point. Though I concede it's easily done.
I'm a little unclear on the distinction you're trying to make between "sexual behaviour" and "sexual activity". Doesn't "behaviour" imply at least some level of "activity"? If someone were criticized for their behaviour in any other context I'd assume the criticism would be of actions taken by them (i.e. "activity").
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Fuck you, and fuck your party.
Honestly, Marvin, if being a Christian makes your life suck this much, it's time to quit. Either Christianity isn't for you, or you're doing it so wrong you need to give it a rest for a while and try it from a different direction later on.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Going back to the "unGodly rules" thing: I'd almost think that more people have been turned off church by the infinitesimally-small detailed rules (e.g. what you wear to be in "church" or whether an alb is allowable on a particular day or who gets to do which minor job) than are upset about the "moral" rules for sexual conduct (which at least have arguable reasons, such as disease or interpersonal reactions)
My wife still carries a chip from being told that she wasn't fit to be in the church building, when she turned up as a teenager to help clean the church on a Friday night, and she wasn't wearing a handkerchief on her head "because women were supposed to have their heads covered". And it wasn't just the instruction, it was the "you can't be saved because of this" attitude. Let alone the obvious unfitness, still, for women in Certain Positions That Matter in the Church (Baptist, Anglican or RC, to my experience)
On Sunday past, two of the ladies were barely able to speak to each other over which person (neither being present!) was supposed to pass out the bulletins that day, in a congo of 17! (although, TBF, the rest of the congo didn't rise to the bait)
And my daughter in Sydney tells me that she had to open up a separate room for the youth to be in at coffee time, because having youth around for coffee was too disruptive for the adults - and the youth were clearly too dangerous in the Kitchen (one's turn on the coffee-rota is part of a highly-competitive structure run by People Who Matter). The obvious result is that the Youth group numbers about 10 in a congo of over 100.
What joy is there?
And, why would any sane young person ever come into a church again? Clearly, an incidental hook-up has the potential for, at least, some fun, and might lead to a deeper personal interaction.
It is exactly this disconnect between what Jesus taught and what churches do that has me on the "leaving" edge of participation.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Honestly, Marvin, if being a Christian makes your life suck this much, it's time to quit. Either Christianity isn't for you, or you're doing it so wrong you need to give it a rest for a while and try it from a different direction later on.
Which version of Christianity would that be, Ruth? You think turning up to services and not rocking the boat is what it's all about?
[ 24. February 2009, 19:38: Message edited by: Dave Marshall ]
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
Okay, just to put myself out there: I don't particularly receive joy from reading the Bible and don't usually feel my mood is particularly different after praying or other religious acts.
I don't think the Christian life causes or prevents joy. The church tends to give me joy and being in a community of people who are trying to follow God tends to give me joy, but I don't go to church becuase it's fun. I go to church to be with other Christians. Worthwhile, interesting, peace-giving, useful, food for thought all seem better words for the Christian life than joyful. I don't see anything bad about that. (Pace, all those people who are going to tell me that if I were a good Christian, I'd be joyful.)
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Marv, if it makes you feel any better, I've heard this argument before, and the people I tend to hear this argument from are former/ active missionaries, and career religious folk. Of any stripe. Oh, and a lot of the Saints bitched about this stuff, too.
It's not that we want to be "carried to the skies on flowery beds of ease'. it just that if you are making an effort --an ACTIVE effort-- to do things that will benefit the Kingdom of God and the human race in general, you'd like to think that God would be on the same page with that. While you try to be fruitful and multiply, you hope that some of the shit thrown at you will be fertilizer, but often it feels like roots are being cut. It's hard to distinguish between the trials that help you grow and damage that stunts your growth.
Being on the opposite side of the end of that story can be scary, frustrating,infuriating, and disheartening . I hope that God of all people knows that, if some of my bretheren have a problem parsing it.
(Not necessarily answering you, Marv, just chewing philisophical cud. But God love you for your honesty.It can only help)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Honestly, Marvin, if being a Christian makes your life suck this much, it's time to quit. Either Christianity isn't for you, or you're doing it so wrong you need to give it a rest for a while and try it from a different direction later on.
Which version of Christianity would that be, Ruth? You think turning up to services and not rocking the boat is what it's all about?
How in the name of sweet peas did you get that out of what Ruth wrote???
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
most Christians are so busy finding ways to make themselves limited and/or unhappy that the Christian Way of Life looks pretty sad. There is always someone demanding that we sit and read some Bible verses together, or that we engage in a "weejus" prayer, or that we not indulge in something so natural as dancing for joy, or that we avoid reading a book by a non-Christian author, or that we sing a really tedious mind-numbing crap song (because it is Christian).
Why can't we LIVE?
Philip J. Lee thinks that these attitudes stem from gnosticism.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Waterchaser
Shipmate
# 11005
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Posted
And he's written a very expensive book to say this. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
Posts: 310 | From: Luton, UK | Registered: Feb 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Honestly, Marvin, if being a Christian makes your life suck this much, it's time to quit. Either Christianity isn't for you, or you're doing it so wrong you need to give it a rest for a while and try it from a different direction later on.
Which version of Christianity would that be, Ruth? You think turning up to services and not rocking the boat is what it's all about?
How in the name of sweet peas did you get that out of what Ruth wrote???
He didn't. He got it out of other exchanges he and I have had, before I started scrolling past his posts.
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
joylessness and self-righteousness
Is that what it is? Or is it that the elder brother has never recieved anything like that amount of love from his father, despite actively loving and serving him? And that it's obviously going to hurt like hell when he sees the one who never showed any love for his father being treated better than he has ever been treated? How exactly should he react to that kind of rejection, that kind of slap in the face? How do you think it feels to not only suspect, but have it proved that your father loves your brother more than you?
The passage directly addresses this. "You are always with me, and all that I have is yours" doesn't cut the mustard?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
For me, the joylessness of being a Christian has little or nothing to do with envying wither the fleshpots or other Christians. It's just about the sheer unremitting slog, the never having a day's peace from a God who demands, demands, demands ... The daily round of unanswered prayer and unconsoled tears, and the knowledge that if I gave it all up I'd burn for ever.
I mean, whoop-de-flaming-doo.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
How in the name of sweet peas did you get that out of what Ruth wrote???
Ruth seemed to be implying (and some of her past posts have given a similar impression) that 'being a Christian' is something you choose, a religion you learn. If it gets too hard, or maybe you just fancy a change, then I imagine it's simply a case of chucking it in.
I was noting that not everyone, me for example, sees it like that. Some of us are where we are not because we much like most of what our Church does. It just happens to be where we've ended up. Where against the odds our search for truth has brought us, and where for now at least, however awkwardly, we seem to belong.
Uncomfortable for Ruth, perhaps - but she's got her scroll bar.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
For some of it's a choice we keep making, day after day, not a life sentence we can't get out of.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Serra_Angel
Apprentice
# 5368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Though it's not easy either and one of the things that annoys me is the 'Christians must be happy all the time' school of thought.
Joy isn't the same with being happy though. The joy the Holy Spirit's presence brings can co-exist with sorrow (again, a gift of the Holy Spirit, to be sorrowful for the pain of the world) and it's not to be confused with "being happy" sentimentalism in my view.
Thank you Andrew and Carys -- it seemed to me that the place to start is by defining "joy," which you so aptly note is not synonymous with "happy" or "happiness." One can suffer from depression and still live joyfully; joy is an action, I think, more than a feeling.
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"If you would brave the weird and haunted shores at World's End, then you will need a captain who knows those waters..."
Tia Dalma, POTC: Dead Man's Chest
Posts: 49 | From: NC, USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Theoretically, one of the benefits of being a Christian is that you are supposed to have access to brothers and sisters in the Spirit who, at the very least, can potentially remind you through their consolation and their prescence that God is present, too. God never said, "And they will know you by your doubt-free, discouragement-free existance."
But the Christian tendancy to (as Pat Boone once put it) "shoot our wounded"-- and in this case he was referring to the very public wavering of faith of his friend B.J. Thomas, and the subsequent scorn he recieved from the A-List Born-Again set --makes it that much harder to access that particular resource. How can you dare admit that you are foundering when too many of those around you might declare that means you have chucked everything?
(Sorry, that was to Adeodatus)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kid Who Cracked
Shipmate
# 13963
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Posted
Can those who distinguish between joy and happiness tell what that difference is, and can you prove that the Christian life is joyful?
Posts: 532 | From: Texas | Registered: Jul 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I totally fail to relate to people who find "The Christian Life" an agony, and who dread going to church every Sunday. As a depressive most of life isn't a ball of joystuff, but going to Church is for me a highlight of the week, and the quiet acceptance I find there is a sort of (quiet) joy.
I know, I know, whooop de doo. I have to agree with RuthW, though: if being a Christian is really making someone's life a living Hell, why put up with it? Why not just pack it in?
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Personally I define joy as a permanent and underlying positive state of mind, closely related to peace and contentment, though a little more active than either of those. "Happiness" I would define as taking pleasure in the present circumstances. With that working definition I would say that for a Christian joy can be present whether or not you are happy at any given moment.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Trudy, it sounds like your "joy" is just another name for a positive outlook and relatively good digestion. An inherited personality trait, more a matter of luck than creed. I wish I had it, or could associate it with being a Christian to the extent that I might expect to receive it at some time short of the parousia. It seems cruel to people with mood disorders to equate it with Christianity.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Well, that is pretty much what I said in my first post on this thread -- that what I consider "joy" is far more innate to some people than to others. Yes, I'm lucky to be a basically joyful person. And no, that's not fair, but then I think about the fruits of the spirit that Paul lists in Galatians 5. Surely all of us have some gifts in greater measure than others -- some that come more naturally to us?
I find it easy to be joyful, and peaceful, and surely that is all a matter of genetics and environment and stuff. I don't find it at all easy to be patient or kind. Other Christians may just overflow with patient kindness -- I know many of these -- but find it a struggle to be joyful, maybe because they suffer from depression or because their lives just suck.
Which just goes back to my original point that there's no value in comparing ourselves to other people. The fact that I'm more joyful than you doesn't mean I'm a better Christian or that the Spirit is blessing me more. It means we're different in a variety of ways, and that's one of them. The relevant question is, am I more joyful than I would be without Christ (I'm pretty sure the answer is yes: I think as non-Christian I'd still have a basically cheerful disposition, but without the underlying sense of peace and purpose my faith gives me). Are you? (Your earlier post seems to indicate that perhaps you are).
Am I more loving, patient and kind than I would be without Christ? I hope so. Those gifts don't come as easily to me; they're definitely more of a struggle. I think the thing with joy and peace is that we're more likely to use them as a ruler to judge our own Christian experience ("I must not be a good Christian, or else God must not be very good to me, because I don't feel as joyful as my neighbour seems to"). Whereas with things like love, patience, etc., it's more likely to be others looking on who judge ("Trudy's obviously not a very good Christian because I just saw her being impatient and unkind -- or else her God is not really that good at making people patient and kind, because she's much less patient and kind than her genuinely nice atheist friend.") It's a flawed yardstick because there are so many other factors apart from our Christian faith, that influence whether we are joyful, peaceful, patient, kind, etc. Ideally, as we grow in grace through the Spirit, all of these qualities should be increasing in all of us, but I doubt for most of us it's a steady progression that would plot a smooth upward line on a "Fruits of the Spirit" graph.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Why not just pack it in?
Can't answer for Marv, but having Been There:
In my last post, I made reference to "the end of the story", and long past the point I could edit and explain, I realised I got that concept form the book Schindler's List One of the women in the Auswich sub camp begins talking about killing herself, her friend intervenes by saying, "but if you do, you'll never know what became of you."
Maybe this is the mustard seed of faith Jesus was talking about-- or not-- but during those really bleak times, when even the act of raising your hopes seems like some sort of black comedy set-up for falling on your face, you can at least maintain that curiosity about how your story will turn out.
(For the record, I feel like I am personally back in a place where being a part of worship evokes feelings of peace and contentment, but boy, did I have to climb over a hell of a lot of PTSD to get there. It's been about 15 years since I have felt this way.)
[ 25. February 2009, 00:56: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I wouldn't go back to being without Christ. Even though my life with him is externally far, far more difficult for just that reason.
My Dad wanted me to go to Stanford and be a doctor. I had the brains for it. And his thinking was AFAIK that that way I'd make a lot of money and be happy with lots of power and respect and a chance at getting whatever things I happened to want. Oh, and he didn't want me to marry, but to live with someone, so as to avoid all the heartaches of a troubled marriage.
It didn't exactly work out that way (and boy, did he let me have it when he discovered I was going into mission service AND marrying a pastor). And I've caught a lot of hell for being both Christian and called to full-time (though non-professional) service. Sleepless nights, boredom up the wazoo, endless paperwork, slander, lies and stalking, finances usually on the brink, stress and so forth. Not to mention watching my non-Christian friends and relatives take cruises, buy granite countertops, get respect AND salaries at least three times mine, and all at a younger age than I am now.
Does it piss me off? Yes. Would I trade, if I had to give up Christ? No.
I don't think joy and happiness are the same thing, most of the time. I think you can suffer and have joy at the same time. And I strongly suspect that a lot of my own drudgery isn't imposed by God at all, it's my own crappy thinking screwing me up. I mean, he's told me to trust him, he's promised to care for me and supply my needs, he's told me I'm forgiven... so why do I waste so many hours fussing about this crap? It isn't his fault.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
When we follow a Leader whose very purpose and plan, in His coming to lead us, included a nasty, brutish, insulting, torturous death, it probably shouldn't shock us when we too have our darknesses.
One of the big things about Christianity for me is the absolute certainty, even when in darkest pain, that somehow it all makes sense, somehow it's all for my eternal wellbeing, the pain is not random and pointless. Underneath the pain and grief and aloneness and blackness that sometimes hits hard through life circumstances, is a floor. The floor is God's promise that all things work for our good.
Jesus - the Bible says what he went through was for his perfection. I don't know what that means, except that it was for him, too, not only for us.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Leaf:
joylessness and self-righteousness
Is that what it is? Or is it that the elder brother has never recieved anything like that amount of love from his father, despite actively loving and serving him? And that it's obviously going to hurt like hell when he sees the one who never showed any love for his father being treated better than he has ever been treated? How exactly should he react to that kind of rejection, that kind of slap in the face? How do you think it feels to not only suspect, but have it proved that your father loves your brother more than you?
I'm not sure, in this story, that I believe the older brother. The father replies "you are always with me, and all I have is yours." ie, what the younger brother got, he could have had anyway. He just wanted to work for it, and be rewarded rather than enjoy the Father's universal kindness.
Which makes me think discussion of this parable might have been a red herring as I'm not sure it's Marvin's situation as he describes it.
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I have to agree with RuthW, though: if being a Christian is really making someone's life a living Hell, why put up with it? Why not just pack it in?
Where else is there to go? He still holds the keys of eternal life, after all.
I honestly wouldn't mind giving up the fun stuff if there was a bit more compensation before death is all. The older brother may know he's going to get the whole farm when his father dies, but that doesn't mean he wouldn't like to have the odd party thrown/fatted calf killed in his honour as well. Is that really so much to ask?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
I've also identified with the elder brother in the prodigal son parable for a long time now and a lot of what Marvin says sounds very familiar to me. But at the end of the day, I can't imagine life without Christianity and the vocation and all that (and I wouldn't give it up for anything) even if I do often think "Can't I just have a normal life like everyone else?" The difficulty, I think, is living in that tension. I don't think that's ever going to be easy. Worship is about the only place where it makes any sense at all.
[ 25. February 2009, 10:42: Message edited by: seasick ]
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
The passage directly addresses this. "You are always with me, and all that I have is yours" doesn't cut the mustard?
No, frankly.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
That has to be held in contrast to the earlier verse where the son says 'you have never given me even a young goat'. It's only when the younger son has come back that the Father affirms his love for the elder son, by which time it might seem rather hollow.
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Hermes66
Shipmate
# 12156
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Posted
quote:
Now, I don't think I'm alone in resenting those who "got the call" much later in life than me. It certainly does feel like they got to have their fun and be Saved while I had to knuckle down and behave myself almost from the start.
Some of us didn't want 'the call' and are still fighting against it for all the reasons you state. One of them being, why pick on me, I'm busy having fun?
I've always identified with the Prodigal and been identified as a bad example since school days. I've had a blast, but it's not all been fun. It takes a lot of nerve to go home, admit you were wrong and ask your family's forgiveness.
There's a lot to be said for a quiet life. God knows it's what I'd like.
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Actually on a real ship but not all at sea
Posts: 523 | From: Amsterdam | Registered: Dec 2006
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Pepe Duboir
Apprentice
# 14569
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Posted
but that doesn't mean he wouldn't like to have the odd party thrown/fatted calf killed in his honour as well. Is that really so much to ask?
Have the odd party, do the stuff that's "not allowed". Try it out. Having become a Christian at 38 I have seen both sides of the coin I think. My late teens and twenties were spent playing in rock bands, riding motorbikes, drinking, taking drugs and indulging in a fair amount of fornication. Some of it was great fun, lots of it that should have been fun somehow wasn't.
After becoming a Christian I'm afraid I became a bit over zealous (which is not uncommon from what I've heard). I threw out all my un-Christian music, wouldn't watch any film that contained sex or swearing and stopped drinking. It's been a few years since then, I've eased up a lot and I agree with what Eckadimmock said earlier; what's most important is to be a Christian where it matters,to be kind, generous and understanding, certainly not pious and judgmental.
My life now isn't always a joy, but my life before was even less so. I can still do most of the stuff I used to before, apart from the bikes, cos I can't get a weeks shopping or my son's drum kit on a bike, and it's not fornication anymore cos I'm married. Just ease up on yourself Marvin. If it's eating you up this much mate, give some of the things you feel you are missing out on a go, God has forgiven people for worse.
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"Always forgive your enemies, nothing annoys them so much"
Posts: 21 | From: At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar. | Registered: Feb 2009
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I'm a little unclear on the distinction you're trying to make between "sexual behaviour" and "sexual activity". Doesn't "behaviour" imply at least some level of "activity"? If someone were criticized for their behaviour in any other context I'd assume the criticism would be of actions taken by them (i.e. "activity").
The problem may be the phrase 'sexual activity'. So far in this thread it seems to have been taken to mean mainly sexual intercourse, because we've been talking about STDS etc. That's maybe been misleading.
By sexual behaviour, I mean all the behaviours which can relate to one as a sexual being; this would include all kinds of sexual activity including intercourse, but by no means would it equate to this alone. It would also include, eg, whether or not to have sex at all, one's thoughts, attitudes, one's whole sense of self as a sexual person etc.
Again, I would say you can behave sexually, or as a sexual being, without having sexual intercourse. I'm afraid I can't state it any more explicity so I apologise if the distinction remains obscure. But I admit I may be using the terms imprecisely!
But why speak of criticism? Observation is enough. I would've thought practicing safe sex was a commendable thing, in itself. Whereas sexual activities which spread harm would generally be thought of as not a good thing, surely? I'm sure the two often go together, as well!
I'm grateful for your quoting the data. I know there is bound to be a lot of cover-up when people hark back to 'olden days'. But I also know that my mother's generation - and in the rather old-fashioned country I grew up in - it was perfectly normal for girls to feel justified in saying no when boys or men pressed for sex.
Whether they did or not is another matter, of course. And of course they might have said 'no' and not meant it! As you rightly point out there has always been a lot of hypocrisy about! But I do think it is harder now for people to say no to sex, than it was before. And I don't think that's necessarily always a good thing.
We don't seem to have that moral justification any more to the same extent, to say no. In other words if someone refuses to have sex it's not because it would be 'wrong', but because they don't fancy that person. It's possible some people would like to know that their feelings of it's being 'wrong' for whatever reason, for having sex with someone is respected as much as the 'well, I don't fancy you' approach.
By thanking God as I do for the safe sex campaigns we have, I am of course thanking God for the way he works through human beings; not being aware that he has personally opened 'God Laboratories Inc' and dons the white coat to do all the research himself. I'm sure you don't really think that anyone can actually imagine that God waves a magic wand and makes safe sex happen without the use of people, research, institutions, charities, funds, etc etc etc.
It isn't an entirely strange thing for Christians to thank God for the good things that happen in the world through the efforts of talented and hard-working people. Though I do understand and respect that many non-Christians are irritated by it.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
For some of it's a choice we keep making, day after day, not a life sentence we can't get out of.
Being born is a life sentence, if you want to put it like that.
I guess it's different understandings of being Christian. You're seeing it as a package, a framework for life, a religion to practice. For me it's identification with the values that are reflected in who Jesus was. What matters is where we end up, in the sense of what is important to us. I don't see that's something we can realistically opt out of.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
That has to be held in contrast to the earlier verse where the son says 'you have never given me even a young goat'. It's only when the younger son has come back that the Father affirms his love for the elder son, by which time it might seem rather hollow.
The Father replied to his elder son that 'all I have is yours'. I don't think the elder son was all that interested in having a party of his own at all. He just begrudged the sinner being welcomed back, because he thought it wasn't fair. And who can't identify with that?
However, if the Father in the parable is meant to be a type of God - which Jesus seems to suggest - then it would seem that the elder son has, all his life, been in possession of the most incredible generosity, love and kindness of his Father. While the prodigal was starving on a pig farm, apparantly dead to the world, the elder son was comfortable, well-off and much loved.
What it would appear he was not, was aware of this or grateful for it. Perhaps he felt that all this was the very least he deserved because he wasn't a dreadful sinner like his brother, and had been a good boy?
I can certainly identify with the elder son because self-pity is a very strong element of much of human nature, including my own. And I can easily see myself in situations where no matter how much proof I have had of the consistent care and goodness of others, it's not enough; because my behaviour never occasioned them an opportunity to go one step further as the Father did with the younger son.
Is there any reason to suppose that if the tables had been turned the Father would have behaved any differently? It's another telling of the workers in the vineyard tale; doubting the generosity of the person who gives others more than they deserve, because we feel it somehow means we're being slighted. Even though the same generosity has been present all the time.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
And I can easily see myself in situations where no matter how much proof I have had of the consistent care and goodness of others, it's not enough; because my behaviour never occasioned them an opportunity to go one step further as the Father did with the younger son.
Doesn't mean it wouldn't have been nice once in a while...
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Belle: If the process of determining whether a rule is legitimate "may take a while" and "you may need to grow more before God can explain to you", how can you ever really reject a rule as not really from God? Maybe you just need more time to grow before you see that it was really right after all.
Learning what are the real rules (I prefer the word "guidelines") and how to apply them starts with relying on what your "elders" teach. But doesn't stop there. (Too many people stop there, thinking of God's guidelines for life as arbitrary rules imposed by force.)
Hearing from God is usually through circumstances, but hearing God's "voice" directly is so common in the Bible that to dismiss it as mental illness is to dismiss all the prophets as mentally ill. Without the prophets, what is left of Christianity?
Guidelines we see in the Bible, or hear from our "elders," we need to learn where they come from and WHY. Your daughter must marry her rapist? Would you prefer that she be killed for being "impure"? Given the era, that may well be what people were used to. Or banish her to somehow live on her own apart from the tribe until a wild animal got her. "No one is going to marry a tainted woman." (Hey, I was taught in USA in the 50s that a woman who lost her viginity before marriage is "used merchandise" and won't find a husband and will be an impoverished spinster. Impoverished because most jobs that would support a household were closed to women.)
You have got to focus on the why, not the what. Whole comedy movies are built around rules mindlessly applied in the wrong circumstances because the characters are not looking at the purpose and whether that purpose applies.
But the other piece is, there is no punishment for ignoring the guidelines, just like there is no punishment for trying to ignore gravity or for eating nothing but sugar. You may get diabetes and cavities from the sugar, you may die from jumping out of an airplane, but God isn't punishing you. You did something stupid that just about anyone, religious or not, could have warned you against, and you suffered the natural consequences of your stupid behavior.
The guidelines are to protect us and help us grow healthier and wiser. That's a lifelong process.
We are free to explore, try things. But for your own safety, do listen to the wisdom of those who have been there ahead of you, listen to the why not just the what.
Does the culture get some of it wrong? Oh, gosh yes, that's why exploring is so important instead of mindlessly accepting hand me down rules. But explore safely. It's one thing to ask "why, what's the goal" but dangerous to blindly rebel saying "I don't like that rule, so I'm not doing it."
We've got an obesity epidemic because so many people blindly reject the guidelines for healthy living.
We've got road rage issues because so many people don't believe in forgiving and praying for the "enemy" who disses you in his driving style.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
Belle - Given the importance you place on exploring and using our own judgment, why not cut out the "middle man" and go with Reason instead of God?
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Marshall:
I guess it's different understandings of being Christian. You're seeing it as a package, a framework for life, a religion to practice.
No. It's a choice, but you're making it sound like I'm going through a buffet line, which is not how I see it.
quote:
For me it's identification with the values that are reflected in who Jesus was. What matters is where we end up, in the sense of what is important to us. I don't see that's something we can realistically opt out of.
I look at it like loving someone. The married couples I know who have relationships I envy (as opposed to the ones who make me happy I live alone) all talk about loving someone over the long haul as a choice they keep making, day after day. My relationship with my closest friend is similar; we could have drifted apart or let the varying circumstances of our lives erode our friendship, but we have made conscious efforts to preserve and develop it. A third example: I started a relationship with a really great guy a few months ago. He's perfect for me, the person I've always wanted and never thought I'd find, etc etc. But my word, I'm 46 years old, and it's just been me and the cat for a long time, so this is re-arranging my life in a big way, and I can't help but be conscious of it as a choice. It's unthinkable for me to walk away from this man, but going forward with this relationship is still a choice.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Leprechaun
Ship's Poison Elf
# 5408
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
That has to be held in contrast to the earlier verse where the son says 'you have never given me even a young goat'. It's only when the younger son has come back that the Father affirms his love for the elder son, by which time it might seem rather hollow.
Although the point is, I think, that the older son is invited to the party for the younger son's return, so he doesn't need his own. The whole point of the parable, I think, is to challenge us wanting stuff for ourselves as those "who do not need to repent" and join in with the Father's heart for those who do.
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He hath loved us, He hath loved us, because he would love
Posts: 3097 | From: England - far from home... | Registered: Jan 2004
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
I think that if you don't understand the saying that to serve God "is perfect freedom" something is very wrong and you need to look outside your current faith and practice and also look inside - inside yourself, I mean.
You might find Zen helpful. The 'Ordinary Mind' school is good - you don't have to abandon Christianity, even if you take (some of) the ideas in the book on board - and I'm not suggesting you do that, but you may find that it gives you useful ways to think about stuff.
Another really good book for thinking about what 'happiness', 'joy' and 'contentment' mean is this one by the Dalai Lama. Again, it's not about becoming a Buddhist, just light from another direction - which, when you're feeling dark - and you certainly seem pretty dark at the moment - may be helpful.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
And I can easily see myself in situations where no matter how much proof I have had of the consistent care and goodness of others, it's not enough; because my behaviour never occasioned them an opportunity to go one step further as the Father did with the younger son.
Doesn't mean it wouldn't have been nice once in a while...
It's tempting to make more of the story than Jesus intended. As Jesus didn't say what the Father did or didn't do, we can only make up our own stories to fill in the gaps. All we do know is the elder son complained. Whether rightly or wrongly, again, is left unsaid.
And it's clear from his complaint his real problem is not that he is being slighted so much, but that someone who he doesn't think deserves consideration is getting it.
However we've got to remember, the Father is a fictional character who didn't exist at all except as an allegorical figure for the person of God the Father.
Logically, then the story is, from the elder brother's standpoint, first and foremost about the righteous man who begrudges the unrighteous man God's forgiveness if and when he receives it. The theme is mirrored in a number of Jesus' parables. Of course, many righteous people do indeed consider themselves slighted by God who they believe acts unfairly towards them.
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Although the point is, I think, that the older son is invited to the party for the younger son's return, so he doesn't need his own. The whole point of the parable, I think, is to challenge us wanting stuff for ourselves as those "who do not need to repent" and join in with the Father's heart for those who do.
"I don't know why you're complaining we never gave you birthday party, Cooper. We always invited you to your brother Brick's party. Isn't that good enough?"
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
And I can easily see myself in situations where no matter how much proof I have had of the consistent care and goodness of others, it's not enough; because my behaviour never occasioned them an opportunity to go one step further as the Father did with the younger son.
Doesn't mean it wouldn't have been nice once in a while...
Part of the problem, Marv, is that you are one of those folks who brings a great deal of blessing to the world not by doing dramatic, earth shaking things, but simply by being the kind of person you are. And people like you are always going to get stiffed, because your friends/ co-workers/overseers are going to occasionally mutter to themselves,"Gee, one day I've got to figure out how to put into words how much I value Marv's presence--" and at that moment, they'll be distracted by a lot of drama and they will neglect this nudge from the Spirit.
Maybe it works both ways, though. Maybe a big party isn't such a great big deal, and maybe working side by side in the fields with someone is the longer-lasting treasure. And maybe the father's answer to "You don't appreciate me" is "I always thought I did!"
In any case, as I am writing this, I realise that I don't really see people's diminished sense of value as God's fault-- it's people's fault. I know full well there are people in my life who mean the world to me, but whom I neglect because I know they will remain constant with very little effort from me. I know that there are people out there who probably think that they are on terrific terms with me when I am stewing under the awareness that they haven't offered me a kind, friendly word in literally years.
Question: do you think the Older Brother in the story would have been quite as bitter if the Younger Brother had approached him and said, "Boy, I missed you. Thank you for holding down the fort." ?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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seasick
...over the edge
# 48
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Posted
quote:
Leprechaun said:
Although the point is, I think, that the older son is invited to the party for the younger son's return, so he doesn't need his own. The whole point of the parable, I think, is to challenge us wanting stuff for ourselves as those "who do not need to repent" and join in with the Father's heart for those who do.
I don't think that's really true to the text. Verses 25 and 26: quote:
Now his elder son was in the field; and when he came and approached the house, he heard music and dancing. He called one of the slaves and asked what was going on.
The party's in full swing, the elder son doesn't know what's happening and so he asks a slave. His father doesn't even come to speak to him until he gets cross. To me the parable leaves us with this disagreement between father and elder son. We're left with the father's affirmation and nothing as to the elder son's response. Is that affirmation truly gracious, grace upon grace? Alternatively, is it too little too late? I think you can read the text both ways. Does the elder son go in to the party, reconciled to his father and brother? Or does he say, "You must be joking" and leave? It seems to me that either of those could be plausible endings to this parable.
[ 25. February 2009, 22:12: Message edited by: seasick ]
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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley
Posts: 5769 | From: A world of my own | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Belle, it's a total tangent, but the law about a woman marrying her rapist wasn't somehow to punish her. It was to enforce the only kind of restitution possible from such a jackass at that point in history--that is, to force him to give her an honorable place in society and to support her for the rest of her life. To underline that last bit, he had the right of divorce taken away from him--any other man could divorce, but not this one. So the woman now had all the power.
And if she looked at him and the whole package and still said "I can't stomach that asshole" (and who could blame her?) he would be forced to pay brideprice anyway, for her support. Which would be a pretty hefty item (and probably delay or destroy any chance he had of marrying elsewhere).
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
As for the elder brother--I've felt the same way (God, why doesn't anyone appreciate me? like, You?) and gotten the same answer I guess, "You and I are always together, and everything I have is yours." (Note that last bit--Dad hasn't revoked his gift to the elder son either, even in light of the prodigal's return.)
Sure, I wish God would throw me a party. But I suspect I've probably got the better deal in the long run. And I don't think God minds me bitching to him once in a while. The elder son had it right--at least TELL Dad what's bugging you, so you can get it dealt with.
At work today I was reading one of those anecdotes that come through every so often--some career missionary who came back to the States sick after 50 years in the field. He had the bad luck to show up home at the same time as the president. And of course, his own arrival was held up and complicated by all the band playing and flag waving going on for the POTUS.
Feeling a bit sorry for himself, he complained to God. "I've served you for fifty years, and not a single person is here to welcome ME home." And God said, "You're not home yet."
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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