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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: So why isn't the Christian life a joy?
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Or, she fears seeing anything in herself like that reptilian frisson of dark power, because she's a squelcher. Perhaps, to her, one is "good" via conformity to whatever "good" is supposed to be, and one falls from grace when a foot steps wrongly.
This seems to be the closest to my experience (thankfully brief) of working with her. She seemed to be the kind of person whose #1 topic of conversation was what everybody was doing wrong and how much better she was doing.
I am much more inclined to trust someone that says "Sometimes I hate my kids and most of the human race as well" than somebody who carries on that way.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
However, if I ask myself - well, how DO I want the story to turn out - what are the other options? Do I want the prodigal son to be told that he's made his bed and now he can lie in it, that it's too late to be sorry, that he's wrecked everything and he can just go back and eat with the pigs because that's what a pig like him deserves? And I find the answer is no.
Good point, well made. It's not so much that I want the prodigal to suffer, it's more that I'd like there to be a bit more of a payoff for doing the right thing, you know?
By way of providing a different way of looking at this, picture a church - the clergy and elders there spend a huge amount of time welcoming newcomers (and returners) and being really friendly to them, but the people who come every week without fail are just given a service sheet and left alone. They are taken for granted. And it's not that I'm saying that that church shouldn't be welcoming to newcomers, but it would be good for them to do stuff for the "every weekers" as well.
Do you see what I mean? Now apply that thinking to the father in the parable, or indeed to the work of the Holy Spirit in us all...
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Face it, Marvin, you're just turning into a grumpy old man. It happens to most people of a certain age, and is a highly honourable estate.
Well, I have just turned 30...
[ 04. March 2009, 09:25: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Marvin
That is just your church culture. At my home church it is inverted. People who come week after week are welcomed and chatted to but it takes weeks for people apart from the minister and one or two others to notice a new person. The welcoming a new person is growing, but it certainly still is the minority and the regulars will always get a big welcome.
My placement church seems to have got a better balance. You get a big welcome whoever you are normally.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
sigh.
I wasn't talking about a specific church. I was giving a hypothetical example - telling a parable of my own, you might say.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Well maybe its time you started distinguishing the kingdom from the church. The parable of the prodigal son is a parable of the Kingdom. The Church is not the kingdom. It does not behave like the kingdom and it never has done. It is a human institution as well as divinely called community. It always demonstrates its spiritual amphibious nature.
So if you are saying that you associate with being the elder son, is that a complaint against the Church or against the kingdom?
If against the church then it can be pointed out the church is only like that in places. If against the kingdom then why choose such a church related example.
The parable I would choose is the parable of the vineyard. It is worth remembering that the labourers who work all day, are given a fair days wage. What robs them of their joy is the fact others who have not worked like them get the same amount. Or to be more precise they see salvation as something earned and feel cheated when others get it with out the hard work they have done. It is making the comparison that steals the joy not the fact the landowner gives the others more than they are due. It is about attitude, deep seated attitude. Please note I have worked this out simply because I had to for myself. These are hard lessons I have had to learn. I don't think it would have mattered what the owner paid the labourers the ones who worked all day would still have thought they deserved more than those who worked less.
The secret of joy is given us by the prophet Micah "walk humbly with your God" (Micah 6:8). If you think that is easy, you simply have not tried. When we learn to live in relationship with God without behaving like jealous siblings "Is God loving X more than me?" then we begin to learn joy. New Christians often experience it simply because they have no sense that they should be comparing themselves with others so they don't. The advantage of being a beginner is you know you are a beginner so not very good or deserving. So everything that comes to you comes as a gift. It is when we think our work makes us deserving that we loose the joy of the gift.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I don't know if this is related at all or not, but lately I've found myself thinking wistfully of other times in life (like v. young childhood) when people actually took care of me, rather than me having to take care of them all the time. I keep thinking that it sure would be nice to have someone hover over me solicitously, even once in a year, and ask how I'm doing, offer to fetch me some tea, whatever.
But that only happens when I'm so badly off I can't appreciate it or enjoy it (like after emergency surgery). And I try to remind myself that I should be grateful it's there for the times I really need it, and not complain that it's not there for the times I simply want it. But I'm afraid I'm not listening to me.
Sometimes I just want a vacation from the Christian life--not because it's joyless, but because it's such a lot of hard work.*
(*Don't freak out and start questioning my Lutheranism. I'm not referring to earning my salvation somehow, but just to the fact that anyone past babyhood in Christ is bound to get handed responsibilities, often very onerous ones. I'm glad he trusts me with these things, but sometimes I just want to whine. Oh dear--there goes my Lenten resolution ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
So if you are saying that you associate with being the elder son, is that a complaint against the Church or against the kingdom?
Kingdom.
quote:
If against the church then it can be pointed out the church is only like that in places. If against the kingdom then why choose such a church related example.
Because it's something that most people here will understand, as well as seeing it as a bad thing.
The church in my parable stands for the Kingdom. The clergy and Elders are God, to whom it's all about that one missing sheep and the other 99 can just be left alone and ignored until it's found. The 99 need the shepherd to be with them as well!
quote:
The parable I would choose is the parable of the vineyard. It is worth remembering that the labourers who work all day, are given a fair days wage. What robs them of their joy is the fact others who have not worked like them get the same amount. Or to be more precise they see salvation as something earned and feel cheated when others get it with out the hard work they have done.
Yes. But isn't that a fair way to feel? How many of them, knowing what would happen, would have worked all day? They've missed out on a whole day of doing what they like, and you expect them not to be pissed off?
For me it really isn't about the amount of work I've done making me more worthy. It's about the fact that all that work was pointless. I needn't have bothered. It's not about what others get, it's about my wasted time.
quote:
It is making the comparison that steals the joy not the fact the landowner gives the others more than they are due. It is about attitude, deep seated attitude. Please note I have worked this out simply because I had to for myself. These are hard lessons I have had to learn. I don't think it would have mattered what the owner paid the labourers the ones who worked all day would still have thought they deserved more than those who worked less.
Maybe they do.
I've always thought that was a pretty stupid parable to have told. Jesus is essentially saying "it doesn't matter if you don't worship God until your dying day, you'll still get the same salvation as everyone else". And yet people, knowing this, still do all that pointless work! I'll never figure it out...
quote:
The secret of joy is given us by the prophet Micah "walk humbly with your God" (Micah 6:8). If you think that is easy, you simply have not tried. When we learn to live in relationship with God without behaving like jealous siblings "Is God loving X more than me?" then we begin to learn joy.
A more accurate question would be "is God loving me at all?"
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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sparkly_h
Shipmate
# 7997
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Posted
I find the OP and this whole discussion fascinating. The OP describes how I felt through most of my life. Where was this fabled 'life in abundance'? I sure as hell never saw it. In the end I gave up and walked away. It was without doubt, the best thing I ever did. The reason was made elegantly and succinctly by Janine...
quote:
Originally posted by Janine:
Does "So why isn't the Christian life a joy?" really mean "Why am I expected to forswear all the fun? Why, in the Christian life, are all these rigid expectations dumped on me, and where the heck do they come from?" --
Or, "When will my outlook, my joy and everything else, finally come from inside me, dependent upon how I relate to God, rather than from the externals?"
For old me, the first was true. I felt like I was constantly needing to meet an impossible standard. That narrow way was so narrow that I pretty much had to beat myself up to stay on it - otherwise where would I be?! Outside of the rules was a big world full of people having fun (and to be honest lots of Christians who I saw as 'less worthy' were there on the outside too) but I knew I was right and I was going to stick to it. That is until I got to the point where I realised that I was so miserable nothing, nothing at all - including stepping outside of my rules - could make things worse.
And....
nothing happened. The world did not fall apart. I just stopped going to church, stopped trying to live life on a tightrope of rules and good behaviour. And things were better. Interestingly, I don't think my life actually changed much. Ok, my language got a bit 'worse' and I got extremely drunk a few times. But the fundamentals of my life were the same.
And slowly I began to think about why I behaved certain ways. Why did I think certain things, and treat people like I did? Without all the rules and pressure to have the right answer, those were interesting things to think about. Not having to be perfect, not inserting the answer my housegroup would give in a discussion to every question made thinking for myself possible.
And God was still there. I was shocked (and still am) about that. In fact when I stopped following rules imposed from the outside it was much easier to listen to God on the inside. It was the difference from being a Christian outside - in to inside - out.
Don't get me wrong - I'm a pretty rubbish Christian by my own old standards and by a lot of other people's too. But life does seem a bit more abundant even if it's much scarier a lot of the time.
That's a lot of personal revelations for a lurker, so I'll stop there. I just thought it might be helpful to talk about my experience so that people (and I'll bet there are loads) who feel like the OPer, know that they may not always feel like that.
H.x
[Crossposted with Marvin]
[ 04. March 2009, 11:57: Message edited by: sparkly_h ]
Posts: 158 | From: Chichester | Registered: Jul 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
(Is a lurker who has been to at least one shipmeet still a lurker?)
Welcome to the great Anglican secret, sparkly_H - you've found it at last! That's why Anglicans are so often criticised by terribly correct Christians as the liberality often makes them feel threatened.
In most Anglican churches (although there are a few....) you won't be told how to behave, but it will be expected that you will have the maturity to work that out for yourselves.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sparkly_h:
And God was still there. I was shocked (and still am) about that. In fact when I stopped following rules imposed from the outside it was much easier to listen to God on the inside. It was the difference from being a Christian outside - in to inside - out.
Spot on, IMHO ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
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Mogwai
Shipmate
# 13555
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qlib:
quote:
Originally posted by sparkly_h:
And God was still there. I was shocked (and still am) about that. In fact when I stopped following rules imposed from the outside it was much easier to listen to God on the inside. It was the difference from being a Christian outside - in to inside - out.
Spot on, IMHO
Has anyone seen a church service interrupted? I mean like, not by a drubnk, but a churchgoer actually disagreeing with the service vocally as it's happening.
When I went to church, there were parts of the service I really disagreed with, but I actually felt bad just for *thinking* about speaking up.
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:love:
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
A more accurate question would be "is God loving me at all?"
And I'm gonna repeat, while others might insist that only a selfish, underdeveloped, unenlightened backslider would feel this way, that many of the people held up in Scripture as God's Best Friends articulated such thoughts.
David, anyone? Moses? Mary of Bethany?
Maybe it centers around the weirdness of "loving God" and all our human associations with that. All but the very luckiest of us (who should shut up) have been in positions when they loved someone-- be it a parent, spouse, sibling, congregation-- and that love was just not returned. Or even actively rejected, as if it was a burden rather than a gift. So it is very human to wonder if your love has been returned-- and in the case of God, there is just no concrete way to asses that.
Unless you are lucky enough to get swooping feelings of presence. Bring it on, Lord, I say.
And I don't have the answer to that one.
What I have observed about myself (therefore Everybody's MMV) is that when I view God as a parent, I get in big trouble-- because both my parents really beat down any idea I might develop of my intrinsic worth. When I look at God as a great teacher, I do better-- not just because I have had some great teachers, but because I am one. And I can verify that is is possible to love the unruly, problematic child, the quiet, introverted child, and the cheery, problem-solving child equally-- or maybe a better word is , uniquely. One loves them because they are burgeoning little people, and you are privileged enough to be part of their growth, to have a balcony seat on the process.
You love them, because even if only in a small way, they are yours. You know them. Knowing them makes it worth even knowing their faults.
How much more interested and invested must God be, having created those people God is watching?
I can look at you, Marv, and say "Of course God loves him, why wouldn't God?" (and I mean that.)I have a harder time aiming that at myself. And it's my belief that God left us the job of helping each other out with that.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
[Tangent] quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
Has anyone seen a church service interrupted? I mean like, not by a drubnk, but a churchgoer actually disagreeing with the service vocally as it's happening.
I wasn't vocal, but I once very publicly got up and walked out of a Communion service. I was living in a rural parish and we were just in the middle of a foot-and-mouth scare. The farming family affected were Methodists. Anyway, the vicar, who was sectioned under the mental Health Act not long afterwards, said in the sermon that, if it did prove to be foot-and-mouth, it was obviously God visiting judgement on the greedy farmers.
People asked me later why I'd walked out - most of them just switched off when the guy got up to speak and so hadn't actually heard what he was saying. The foot-and-mouth scare came to nothing.[/Tangent]
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
If you want the gospel answer. Then the answer is you are being paid a talent not a shekel for the whole day but appear to be complaining because God gives other people a talent for only working an hour.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
Has anyone seen a church service interrupted? I mean like, not by a drubnk, but a churchgoer actually disagreeing with the service vocally as it's happening.
Yes but probably not the way you're thinking of.
In one case someone got up to argue a point of doctrine, got into a brief exchange and then left angrily. I wasn't there but was told about it in the context of someone saying it would be a good idea to have more of a discussion time rather than a sermon sometimes.
The other time I remember a friend of mine objecting to a visiting preacher repeatedly using the word "pansy" to describe gay people. On being challenge the preacher, once he realised what was being said (my friend was too upset to be very coherent) claimed that it was (to him) a value-neutral description rather than a perjorative. He said it was common amongst people of his generation (he was 50-ish and this was 10-15 years ago). He said he didn't mean offence and would avoid using the word in future. Some of this he said to my friend after the service. He went to find him, apologise and explain.
I was actually standing next to my friend when he did this and whilst I found it hard to believe anyone was so naive as to think you could use that word without a boat-load of associations, many negative, his desire to apologise and not give offence in future seemed sincere.
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
If you want the gospel answer. Then the answer is you are being paid a talent not a shekel for the whole day but appear to be complaining because God gives other people a talent for only working an hour.
Jengie
Just to add, I don't mean the "gospel" as in gospel truth, but in the gospel=good news sense or as culled from the New Testament. It's a tough message but when we start to think we deserve to part of the Kingdom, then there is something deeper wrong than just being unfairly treated. In fact we (and I am talking to myself as much as anyone here) are in danger of loosing our faith altogether and it has already become distorted.
I always have a lot of time for Pharisees, they really believed in the kingdom. They worked darn hard to bring it about. They really believed that if just everyone could be as strict as they were over religious observance then the kingdom would arrive. In many ways they are closer to the kingdom than I am at times. They did not think they could earn a place only that by being good they helped to bring it about. Rights in the end are not part of Christianity.
May I suggest a book Marvin, try Dangerous Wonder because what you need to get hold of right now is how marvellous Grace is and maybe wonder is the secret behind that.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
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Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mogwai:
Has anyone seen a church service interrupted? I mean like, not by a drubnk, but a churchgoer actually disagreeing with the service vocally as it's happening.
When I went to church, there were parts of the service I really disagreed with, but I actually felt bad just for *thinking* about speaking up. [/QB]
My father did it once when I was about six - I remember it very distinctly. The preacher was, actually, completely out of order and was discussing the personal life of one of the congregants from the pulpit. My father stood up and said - 'I didn't bring my family here to listen to this kind of thing!', and we were told to get out and not come back. So we did, and no real loss as far as I can see. I did it myself about 10 years ago - stood up while someone was speaking and asked him to clarify himself on a certain point (I knew him well, and was fairly sure he was NOT saying what it sounded like he was saying, but I was uncomfortable about what other listeners might be making of it).
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
One of the formative experiences my wife had as a child occurred during a funeral at an "old-fashioned" rural Baptist church about 50 years ago. The deceased was an elderly farm widow, who had been a member of that church forever. The preacher got into the altar-call sermon, saying that even the lady in question was probably not saved, since she hadn't done...whatever it was that the preacher didn't like.
One of the pall-bearers, front row, got up, laid his grey gloves on the casket and walked out of the church, never to return (and making sure his kids didn't either), a monumental shock in that era.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Serra_Angel
Apprentice
# 5368
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Posted
I think it is interesting that this discussion may have started defining joy as "happiness," but now it seems to be associating it with "having fun." I don't think either one is a good definition. I know there are churches that throw a wet blanket on fun (and I am glad I am not a member of one), but they won't argue against joy. One almost wishes they would...
I like to think a Christian life is full of fun, though not necessarily happiness (no one of any religion or no religion can escape grief), and full of joy. And some of the restrictions which world culture claims will cramp your style, it seems to me, if followed actually add to pleasure and fun (and possibly joy.) And I don't like being such a part of world/mainstream culture that I take primary pleasure in what it labels AS pleasure. My two cents worth...
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"If you would brave the weird and haunted shores at World's End, then you will need a captain who knows those waters..."
Tia Dalma, POTC: Dead Man's Chest
Posts: 49 | From: NC, USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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Talitha
Shipmate
# 5085
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Jesus is essentially saying "it doesn't matter if you don't worship God until your dying day, you'll still get the same salvation as everyone else". And yet people, knowing this, still do all that pointless work! I'll never figure it out...
Stop doing it then.
Seriously. It might work out for the best, like in sparkly_h's case.
Posts: 554 | From: Cambridge, UK | Registered: Oct 2003
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Geneviève
Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
# 9098
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Posted
I did mention both fun and joy in my post. That was because ISTM that or the OP'er and maybe others, Christian life was nothing but grimness, dullness, and work, with all play taken away as well.
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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)
Posts: 4336 | From: Eastern US | Registered: Feb 2005
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
I've always thought that was a pretty stupid parable to have told. Jesus is essentially saying "it doesn't matter if you don't worship God until your dying day, you'll still get the same salvation as everyone else". And yet people, knowing this, still do all that pointless work! I'll never figure it out...
This is where I got sort of shocked. Not at calling it stupid, I can cope with that. But poor Marvin! Is that how you're seeing Christianity, as pointless work???? Or work at all, for that matter???
I'm really not trying to be sarcastic. I had some episodes of creeping legalism in my past, and each time I felt like jumping off a bridge. Except I probably wouldn't manage to do it in the approved manner...
I think that when we push this parable to meaning "work for salvation," we've pushed so far off the point that the analogy breaks down. The emphasis wasn't earning the denarius--or maybe I should say, the emphasis was on NOT earning the denarius. Obviously the landowner is giving it away. The employer is batshit insane and handing out his dinero to any fool who cares to get in line and take it, on the flimsiest of excuses--or none at all. The connection between work and reward has been completely removed.
That, I think, is what pisses off the first set of workers. They thought they were earning their pay. Now they realize that they were working for nothing--the handout at the end of the day is free to everybody, regardless of work. In essence, they were working for love. Or... not.
That to me is what Christianity is all about. You couldn't PAY me to do some of the things Christ has asked of me. But it's not about payment, is it? The man is out of his head and giving salvation away for free. So anything I do right now, before quitting time comes, is either a waste of time... or done for love.
All in how you look at it.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Serra_Angel
Apprentice
# 5368
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Posted
Regarding fun and joy: sorry, Genevieve. Hope you didn't think I was picking on you...
Lamb Chopped! I don't think I have ever heard anyone describe that parable or Christian service with more clarity... I now understand it in ways I never did. TY TY TY
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"If you would brave the weird and haunted shores at World's End, then you will need a captain who knows those waters..."
Tia Dalma, POTC: Dead Man's Chest
Posts: 49 | From: NC, USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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stagflation
Apprentice
# 14061
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Posted
regarding finding happiness/joy in christianity i find the biggest obstacle to be other christians. i hasten to add not because of any special quality of holiness or otherwise on my part. simply that christianity to me seems to demand communion with other believers as part of its essentail nature. this is hard full stop. sharing your life with others is difficult and sometimes painful but conversly this has to be gone through to receive joy. it is not possible to truely know joy without experiencing sorrow. in churches i have attended my fallen humanity combined with the fallen humanity of others has made finding joy within the particular congregation difficult. currently i am not attending any one church and am trying to work out how to do so honestly to make communion possible. plus a lot of christians make me wish there was no God so i could be an atheist and not have to associate with them.
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so that's what i think, y'know
Posts: 16 | From: kent | Registered: Aug 2008
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glockenspiel
Shipmate
# 13645
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Posted
Re: finding joy with others/being challesnged by others ... yes, nine times of out of ten, one is projecting one's own anxieties/misapprehensions/darknesses/failings onto the other person ....BUT ... this is nine times out of ten ~ there is also a one time out of ten, where it really is nothing to do with you; and the other person is just being an arsehole.
Posts: 1258 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Apr 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Serra_Angel, I'm glad if it helped. But what cracked me up was hitting post and realizing I'd called God "batshit insane." ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Ah well. he knows what I mean.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Other Christians--oh yeah. In fact, call it other humans and call it a day. We have a saying in our house about ministry being so wonderful if it weren't for all the people.
I used to have a rock tumbler when I was a kid--you put the jaggedy rocks in, added water, and left them to tumble over and over each other for a couple months. When you got back, they were lovely and smooth.
I'm afraid the church is a lot like that.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Liked your take on the parable, too, LC. Gleaned a message in there somewhere about figuring out what it is you love, and being true to that.
RE: other people-- going back to the Prodigal Son, I suddenly got this image of the three principles trying to work things out with the rest of the party guest providing background commentary a la the jerry Springer show.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
This is where I got sort of shocked. Not at calling it stupid, I can cope with that. But poor Marvin! Is that how you're seeing Christianity, as pointless work???? Or work at all, for that matter???
Well, if there's no need to do any of it - if, as you say, the owner is just giving the dinero away - why bother doing anything other than collecting your share? There's nothing extra to be gained by it, so unless it is worth doing purely in and of itself - unless it causes you joy in some way - it's pointless.
And that's the question in the title of this thread. Why isn't the Christian life a joy?
quote:
That to me is what Christianity is all about. You couldn't PAY me to do some of the things Christ has asked of me. But it's not about payment, is it? The man is out of his head and giving salvation away for free. So anything I do right now, before quitting time comes, is either a waste of time... or done for love.
There's probably only about a dozen people in this world who I love enough that I'll do random shit for them, shit that (as you say) other people couldn't pay me to do.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Nia
Shipmate
# 14193
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by sparkly_h:
For old me, the first was true. I felt like I was constantly needing to meet an impossible standard. That narrow way was so narrow that I pretty much had to beat myself up to stay on it - otherwise where would I be?! Outside of the rules was a big world full of people having fun (and to be honest lots of Christians who I saw as 'less worthy' were there on the outside too) but I knew I was right and I was going to stick to it. That is until I got to the point where I realised that I was so miserable nothing, nothing at all - including stepping outside of my rules - could make things worse.
And....
nothing happened. The world did not fall apart. I just stopped going to church, stopped trying to live life on a tightrope of rules and good behaviour. And things were better. Interestingly, I don't think my life actually changed much. Ok, my language got a bit 'worse' and I got extremely drunk a few times. But the fundamentals of my life were the same.
And slowly I began to think about why I behaved certain ways. Why did I think certain things, and treat people like I did? Without all the rules and pressure to have the right answer, those were interesting things to think about. Not having to be perfect, not inserting the answer my housegroup would give in a discussion to every question made thinking for myself possible.
And God was still there. I was shocked (and still am) about that. In fact when I stopped following rules imposed from the outside it was much easier to listen to God on the inside. It was the difference from being a Christian outside - in to inside - out.
Don't get me wrong - I'm a pretty rubbish Christian by my own old standards and by a lot of other people's too. But life does seem a bit more abundant even if it's much scarier a lot of the time.
I've just read this whole thread (yes, I'm sad) and Sparkly_h's reply appears very pertinant. It seems to me Marvin that you have been oppressed by religion. I do not get any sense of the presence of the Holy Spirit in your life nor any sense of a living vibrant faith. Religion without relationship is just a dead, oppressive philosophy. This kind of Christianity terrifies me. I recently attended an evangelical church service where young university students had returned to report on what it was like to live as a Christian in a secular, youth culture. I had my 15 year old daughter with me. What a joyless, miserable and confused lot they were. They were like rabbits in headlights - overwhelmed by the complexity of the culture they had entered and with only one answer to it: 'thou shalt not...'
Is this the only thing that Christianity has to offer young people? My daughter looked at me - these people were really SAD. She was going nowhere near the Christian Union when she got to university.
Marvin, you've been sold short. But I guess its difficult to change your life at 30. If I could I would follow sparkly_h's example. Live your life and enjoy it (if you can) and let God find you - He will. Be the younger brother; rebel and do all you've wanted to; park the guilt (if you can), shout out the anger and enjoy life. If God is there he will leave His other sheep and go search for you. And He will rejoice when one day he finds you and brings you back into the fold - and you will come willingly and joyfully. Only this time, you will come along laughing and in conversation with Christ.
I don't know what brand of Christianity you follow but I love Brian McLaren's A New Kind of Christian - he's full of joy. Marcus Borg is interesting and liberating too.
Good luck and God bless.
Posts: 91 | From: Hampshire | Registered: Oct 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
If Christianity is all about us becoming more Christlike, then perhaps that doesn't mean being filled with more and more joy. Perhaps it means being with people in their suffering.
Not very popular, I know, but perhaps a necessary task.
I remember when I found it very tiresome to be surrounded by Christians who were trying very hard to be happy, happy, joyful all the time - and also in complete denial over the unhappiness and suffering they were causing to others in the church.
Surely being fully Christian (and fully human) is to experience the right emotion at the appropriate time, not to be always full of joy, regardless.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Serra_Angel
Apprentice
# 5368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
If Christianity is all about us becoming more Christlike, then perhaps that doesn't mean being filled with more and more joy. Perhaps it means being with people in their suffering.
Not very popular, I know, but perhaps a necessary task.
I remember when I found it very tiresome to be surrounded by Christians who were trying very hard to be happy, happy, joyful all the time - and also in complete denial over the unhappiness and suffering they were causing to others in the church.
Surely being fully Christian (and fully human) is to experience the right emotion at the appropriate time, not to be always full of joy, regardless.
Trying to be full of "happy happy" joy all the time, in my opinion, is like praying without ceasing by never stopping talking to God (at the expense of talking to others...) I think joy and suffering go hand in hand; if one is happy, one remembers joy and can look to see if one can help others who maybe are not happy or need help. If one is suffering, one takes comfort in the belief that Christ and God know what suffering is and look for a reason for joy within it. This is a nascent, or baby, idea so I may not yet be putting it very well.
I am, however, better at giving an example of praying without ceasing. I have a family member who is a musician and I think someone asked her how she could perform and pray without ceasing simultaneously. She responded that she prayed immediately before walking out on stage and prayed that the music she made and the concentration she gave to her music would be accepted as continuing prayer. Then she went out and did her best. I expect the concept of combining true, Christianity-based joy and suffering are something similar. Perhaps someday I will have a good example of that too.
And I agree that other Christians, and more, people in general, make happiness, if not joy, difficult. I too have met my share of miserable Christians...
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"If you would brave the weird and haunted shores at World's End, then you will need a captain who knows those waters..."
Tia Dalma, POTC: Dead Man's Chest
Posts: 49 | From: NC, USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
This is where I got sort of shocked. Not at calling it stupid, I can cope with that. But poor Marvin! Is that how you're seeing Christianity, as pointless work???? Or work at all, for that matter???
Well, if there's no need to do any of it - if, as you say, the owner is just giving the dinero away - why bother doing anything other than collecting your share? There's nothing extra to be gained by it, so unless it is worth doing purely in and of itself - unless it causes you joy in some way - it's pointless.
And that's the question in the title of this thread. Why isn't the Christian life a joy?
quote:
That to me is what Christianity is all about. You couldn't PAY me to do some of the things Christ has asked of me. But it's not about payment, is it? The man is out of his head and giving salvation away for free. So anything I do right now, before quitting time comes, is either a waste of time... or done for love.
There's probably only about a dozen people in this world who I love enough that I'll do random shit for them, shit that (as you say) other people couldn't pay me to do.
Um, that's what I was trying to say. In and of itself the shit I do is not joy-inducing--quite the opposite, in fact. Paul never spoke a truer word than when he said "If this is all we have, we are of all men most miserable."
The Christian life in and of itself can be sheer hell--drudgery, terror, disgust or any combination of the above. But in my experience what makes the difference is who I'm doing it for--and as you say, there are only about a dozen people in this world I'll do it for, for love. But there is Christ, then. And now I'm going to be very un-Lutheran and un-Germanic and make a fool of myself on the Internet.
(Damn, how do I start?)
I love him. He's the only one who never let me down, never lied to me, never betrayed me. He was there when I was a teenager going through my parents' divorce. He was there when I was suicidal. He was there when I did all kinds of dumb shit from day one till now, and he never treated me like everyone else, even my own mother, treated me (and like I deserved). He was there when I almost lost my life and my family. Even when he disciplines me, it's a hell of a lot kinder than love notes from most the people I know. And he never does that without cause.
He knows all the most embarrassing things about me, and still loves me. He takes pleasure in me--and isn't that a fucking wonder? He watches me screw up time and again and again and it doesn't change a thing in his attitude toward me. He's the only person I can truly let down my guard with, and not be afraid he'll walk away. He won't. He's had thirty years to prove it.
He doesn't put me on guilt trips. He doesn't remind me of all I owe him and then get after me about my obligations. He's interested in my life, which is more than I can say of all but my closest friend. He doesn't make me feel like an idiot when I'm thrilled about some minor success, or happy about some tiny little thing. He's happy for me and with me.
He doesn't just take care of my needs (though that's very important) but he once in a while adds something about my wants--things that are totally frivolous and I'm more than half-embarrassed to pray about them. (Given his track record, I should do more asking.)
He's patient with me, and he doesn't roll his eyes.
How could I NOT love someone like that? To the point of sheer idiocy. If he asks me to jump, I'll do it. If he asks me to bark like a dog, I'll do it. (Thank God he doesn't do that--how embarrassing.) More to the point, if he asks me to suffer, I'll do it.
He made it very clear long ago. If I was willing, he would give me (like any other Christian) a share of his work in the world, meeting the needs of lost and dying people. And he made it very clear that this would involve suffering. Quite a bit of it.
I'm just as chicken as anyone else. I didn't say "Yes" to him, I don't have the guts. I screwed up my eyes, hid my head under the blankets, and said, "You pick for me, Lord."
And so I have the life I have, and there's been a hell of a lot of crap in it. But I also have him. And I'm still an idiot in love with him, and I will still jump if he says so. I like making him happy. It makes me happy when he's happy. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
Darn you, Marvin, for making me say all this. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Jenn.
Shipmate
# 5239
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Posted
LC, that was beautiful, thank you (it might also have given me the prompt i needed to do something, so thank you twice)
Posts: 2282 | From: England | Registered: Nov 2003
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Leaf
Shipmate
# 14169
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Posted
And now for something completely different.
The OP asks, "So why isn't the Christian life a joy?" So whose life is a freaking Bollywood musical number? Seriously, what do you expect?
It's not all misery and it's not all joy. On balance, it's pretty good. I even did some math on this. ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Assuming Jesus lived thirty-three years, and hung on the cross for about six hours, that works out to about 0.00002076124 percent of his life spent in sheer agony. Now add to that the times when he was rebuking, angry, exhausted, etc. and maybe you get to 10 percent of his life sucking to various degrees. That leaves 90 percent of his life spent, you know, just doing stuff -- thumping around Galilee and Judea -- or spent in happiness, up to sheer joyful bliss. I'd take a 90 percent normal-to-joyful life.
ISTM incidents in which Jesus seems completely delighted (Peter's confession, for example) seem to occur no more or no less than in anybody's life. So if that's how it was for Our Founder, why should it be so different for you? (I'm even leaving out the eternal joy of the resurrection, because that would really skew my numbers.)
Now of course I realize that the Gospels do not form a complete record of all of Jesus' earthly hours... but I thought it might make for an interesting parable.
Posts: 2786 | From: the electrical field | Registered: Oct 2008
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Squibs
Shipmate
# 14408
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Posted
Excellent stuff, LC.
Posts: 1124 | From: Here, there and everywhere | Registered: Dec 2008
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Nia
Shipmate
# 14193
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Posted
I read Marvin as saying that Christianity was a source of misery in his life. No-one is saying that 'Life' is going to be great if you are a Christian (as if!) but rather one's faith should be one source of support, challenge and comfort. One's faith should not be a constant source of additional misery in life. Lamb Chopped said it all - kudos to you LC for having the courage ![[Biased]](wink.gif) - whatever the events in one's life, Christ is there to help you navigate them. Christ is a source of happiness - sometimes quiet, sometimes loud, sometimes challenging (gulp) but a source of comfort nonetheless.
Posts: 91 | From: Hampshire | Registered: Oct 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
When people start going on about how the Christian life isn't a joy, I wonder if it is actually something else in their lives which is currently making them miserable and that instead of dealing with that they are projecting those feelings onto Christianity and blaming God for them.
Thank you, that will be 5 cents, please.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Ticachick
Apprentice
# 14263
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Posted
quote:
Live your life and enjoy it (if you can) and let God find you - He will. Be the younger brother; rebel and do all you've wanted to; park the guilt (if you can), shout out the anger and enjoy life. If God is there he will leave His other sheep and go search for you. And He will rejoice when one day he finds you and brings you back into the fold - and you will come willingly and joyfully. Only this time, you will come along laughing and in conversation with Christ. [/QB]
That's what I want from Christ and never seem to quite find it at church. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Posts: 39 | Registered: Nov 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
And now I'm going to be very un-Lutheran and un-Germanic and make a fool of myself on the Internet.
[snip]
Darn you, Marvin, for making me say all this.
Sorry.
All I could think when reading what you wrote was "that must be nice". I've never had that, or felt that, or even really believed that.
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
When people start going on about how the Christian life isn't a joy, I wonder if it is actually something else in their lives which is currently making them miserable
Maybe. It's been a rough few months.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Teacher Cath
Apprentice
# 14625
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Posted
I can feel a degree of sympathy for Marvin - but in my experience its not my faith in Jesus that is the miserable bit - but, frankly, other Christians. I sometimes want to shake people at church - why is it so hard to smile? If my friends are unhappy, though, of course I'm unhappy too - but that would be the same Christian or not. Life can be a bit poo sometimes - thats just 'Life.'
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People are unreasonable, illogical and self-centred. Love them anyway.
Posts: 5 | From: Cheshire | Registered: Mar 2009
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
All I could think when reading what [Lamb Chopped] wrote was "that must be nice". I've never had that, or felt that, or even really believed that.
I guess I might have written something along those lines a long time ago. In a sense I suppose it could still be nice to drop into that kind perspective, imagining God as a projection of some idealised fantasy.
But I could never rely on it now. There's no evidence for, and a whole universe that would say 'what are you on about?'. Maybe its just me getting old, but I find an occasionally person-like relationship with the God who is in reality creating the world much more satisfying than anything I recall from back then.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
It must be hard being a Martian when everyone around you is an Earthling.
Purgatorial prayers. ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
(and advice that if you think you are depressed, get thee to a physician)
Meanwhile, the crappiest piece of advice I've ever seen was on a church banner:
If you put:
Jesus first
Others second
Yourself last,
you get JOY.
Is there anyone on this planet - or for that matter on Mars - who has ever tried this and found it works?!
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Please tell me life isn't this bad.....
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Dave m'dear, thanks for the kind words ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif) . It might interest you to know that I am a typical stiff upper lip, buttoned up Lutheran of the Germanic type who barely nod to each other at the Peace--not a pentybaptistchariswhatsit, and certainly not prone to wish fulfillment fantasies. Fear fulfillment fantasies are more my style.
I really can't help it if this is the way the Lord chose to deal with me. But there's no reason why he should deal with everyone in the same way, is there?
[ 11. March 2009, 01:41: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Gosh, Marvin, I'm so sorry.
Same here. I had a feeling something was unusually not ok.
I guess that's part of what was getting my hackles up on this thread-- when somebody starts saying," What is the use of living a Christian life" I am by default less interested in whether they are right about the matter, and more interested in what might be making them look at things that way.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I really can't help it if this is the way the Lord chose to deal with me.
More the way you choose to deal with God, I think. And of course we all have to work that out for ourselves.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Wonderful recounting of your experience, LC, and I'm glad you have that.
But lots of Christians never have anything like that. I think some of it is due to biochemistry, wiring, socialization, past experiences, etc. A person can be totally commited to Christ and never feel what you have felt. Some people feel it periodically, or maybe once in their lives. And sometimes, as Dave said, it's a matter of how you choose to relate to God.
Not particularly pointing at you, LC. Just at the underlying assumptions that you and several others seem to have expressed here.
A person's faith can't be accurately judged by how or whether they experience God.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
Sometimes, when Christians get depressed they might find it worth their while talking to a doctor instead of assuming it's a faith problem. I'm not suggesting "a pill for every ill", but pills do have their place, as does counselling, therapy etc.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
Posts: 8913 | From: Page 28 | Registered: May 2001
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