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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: The worst Bible verse
fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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We know [Snore]

you've told us about 123, 4.... darn, lost count.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Pretty Butterfly
Shipmate
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Wait, did you just use the Crusades as an example of how we should be doing Christianity? I don't think slaughtering unbelievers is the way forward, although from what you just posted you seem to...

And "the Bible as interpreted in the light of church tradition" isn't what the Christian religion is all about (Also, which church? bummer if you get the wrong one, eh?).

Christianity is all about Christ. The clue's in the name. Just because your pet issues and teachings are important to your faith, doesn't mean they are essential to anyone else's.

To come in to a group of people having only a minimal amount of information, make huge assumptions and sweeping judgements, and attack a strawman argument is rather rude. You may feel that you are qualified to judge the nature and value of my faith, and that of every other person on this board, based on what you read in an article in the Telegraph, but I really don't think you are.

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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Oh §Andrew, your self-righteous schtick is so cute. [Tear]

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
It may well be a useful coping mechanism, it may satisfy psychological or even spiritual needs, but it's not the Truth and many of you already suspect that.

A non-Christian lecturing Christians about the Truth of their faith, and where they have abandoned it? Oh, that's precious. Even after you've renounced the religion, you still think you're the only one who actually knows what it's all about.

Christian or non-specific deist, one thing about you remains unchanging as the Lord Himself: you're still an arrogant shit.

quote:
But do not expect others to take your Christian claims seriously.

...

By all means, keep your DIY Christianities. But don't expect me to accept it as well.

We don't expect you to do either of those things. It would be nice if you'd shut the fuck up about them though.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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moron
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# 206

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quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
You have created Christianity according to your image and likeness. The liberals have created a liberal Christianity, the conservatives a conservative, the traditionalists a traditional, the fundamentalists a fundamentalist, the wackos a wacky, the moderates a moderate...

You say that like it's a bad thing.


quote:
By all means, keep your DIY Christianities.
Thank you, I will. Near as I can tell it's about the best any of us can do. [Razz]
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GreyFace
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quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
So, you have no problem dethroning holy texts and holy people, changing the faith of those long dead to fit your own sensitivities.

Andy, you don't get it.

My faith was never that Saint Unheardof, however holy he was and is, had the whole Truth. It was never that Saint Paul's views are the dictated orders of God. I have never tried to change the faith of someone long dead - why should I? I don't expect even the greatest Saint to be right all the time. I have dethroned no-one. There are degrees of authority, there are all kinds of factors in how we listen to authorities, and I'm not taking these kind of accusations from somebody who spent years telling us how rubbish our understanding of the truth was and then threw belief in Christ out of the window the minute he realised that his own idiosyncratic interpretation of Real Christianity™ didn't actually fit the facts.

You're confirming my theory with everything you post. You really believe that the fundamental doctrine of the Church is infallibility, and so getting something wrong destroys the Church in your mind. I can see how the attitudes of some of the Fathers and of some hardline elements of Orthodoxy (not the mainstream, as far as I can tell) have led you down that path.

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Chill
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quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
[QUOTE] If you cannot stand your own religion and feel the need to revise it constantly so that it matches your sensitivities, then why not do away with the whole thing instead of creating your own religion as you see fit?

Is this your argument or is it just a rephrasing of what the Phrases said to Jesus before they decided he had to go? [Confused]
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Anglican2009
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Goperryrevs: it is not a question of my hermeneutics. The tradition of the church in the first 19 centuries of its existence is clear. Your "social religion", otherwise known as socialism/liberalism, is simply heresy/apostasy - as indeed Pope Pius' Syllabus of Errors made clear in the 19th century. It's not a question of lack of sense of humour. Your game of mocking the Bible shows you do not believe in revealed religion, especially when it contradicts your socialist/liberal political views.

Marvin the Martian: "And right-wing, prejudiced, racist, homophobic, chauvinism isn't politics?" The Bible is not homophobic and chauvinistic, but does support the traditional family and gives the headship to the husband. Homophobia means an irrational atavistic phobia of homosexuals. Christians have never had a "phobia" of homosexuality; rather they taught it was sinful. Christians have never had a chauvinistic hatred of women, but they taught women to accept their role in society and the family. Social equality is impossible to achieve and not part of the Christian remit. The BCP catechism is clear: order yourself reverent and lowly to all your betters and accept that station in life to which it shall please God to call you. The CofE in 1900 would never had accepted Islam in England - and if you Ship of Fools do, you are apostates. No, Christianity is not wonderfully broad and diverse: if you disagee with the consensus fidelium then you are just not in the church, that's all. Yes, the Christian teachings are all-or-nothing. Because the church speaks with its constant authority down the centuries. Changing everything each century amounts to deleting the kernel of faith.

GreyFace: the truths that were taught by the apostles are the Christian Faith. To claim you can teach the direct opposite of what the apostles said and still be a Christian is ridiculous. There is not just the Bible but the tradition of the church, which interprets the Bible. The Bible and traditional Church teaching show clearly: there is no salvation outside the church; only men can be ordained and celebrate Holy Communion; sexual activity is to be conducted within marriage only and not between people of the same sex. To suddenly reverse on all of this just shows your beliefs amount to no more than "we should try to be nice and not upset the Muslims/gays/feminists". Actually Anglican clergy are paid using the £7bn built up over the centuries, largely from Queen Anne's Bounty and the Church Commissioners -- Anglicans of centuries ago would have been astonished to see that out-and-out heretics, blasphemers and perverts are living on the money today!

Prettybutterfly: re: the Crusades. Europe was the military inferior at the time of the Crusades. We spent centuries fighting off the Muslim attack. The Muslims were right up into France until Charles Martel gave them what-for, and the Arabs occupied parts of Italy, and the Turks were at the gates of Vienna several times. Of course this spans 1000 years of history, but the Crusades were a desperate attempt to prevent the Muslims from conquering the Holy Land. If you just think of the methods of conversion by the sword used by the Arabs, you can see the Crusades probably saved Europe proper from a dreadful fate. The Popes ordered the Crusades and I admire the valour of our knights. I am not saying we should slaughter minorities today -- for one thing, Europe is militarily strong. We are not in the throes of conquest by Arabia, but if we were we would be entitled to fight back. No, we are, as it were, conquering ourselves, via multiculturalism and immigration. We ought not to adopt policies designed to destroy the very Cities on a Hill, the Lights unto the World themselves. Prettybutterfly your "religion" boils down to this: "Jesus was a nice guy who was misguided. He said some pretty nasty things about hell and was rude to the Pharisees, but that reflected the cutlure of the time. He was personable, and although we can't believe anything the Bible said, I believe Jesus was a nice guy".

May I call on all members of this Ship of Fools to refrain from foul language. I could dig out some Bible verses on that subject too it necessary. I don't expect to read the F-word on a Christian website. Or is that part of your trendy "social religion" too?

Adeodatus: the Bible verses in Chapter or Worse are not especially difficult unless you think effete liberalism is the same thing as Christianity. Your left-wing views amount to a boot stamping on a human face for ever - in this case the wiping out of Western civilisation. Of course, after Western civilisation is gone, the European church will have gone too. It is not the verses that are "hard to explain"; it is rather the fact that your political views are so out of kilter with the tradition of the church that you can no longer understand.

Matt Black: yes the CofE is hopelessly apostate. But we had one Reformation and I would like to see Parliament order another. The current bishops are apostates - Samuel in the OT would have known how to deal with them!

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Social equality is impossible to achieve and not part of the Christian remit.

So, youe "Chapter and Worse" candidate would be that verse that says something like "There's neither male nor female, Jew nor Greek, slave nor free. For we are all one in Christ Jesus". I'm glad to see you're capable of ignoring verses that don't conform to your prejudices. A pity you're not quite as honest that that's what you do as those who did actually engage in the Chapter and Worse project.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
May I call on all members of this Ship of Fools to refrain from foul language. I could dig out some Bible verses on that subject too it necessary. I don't expect to read the F-word on a Christian website. Or is that part of your trendy "social religion" too?

Oh good, another newbie -- with all of two posts to his name -- wants to make the rules.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Organ Builder
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
The tradition of the church in the first 19 centuries of its existence is clear.

[Killing me]

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Erroneous Monk
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
The Bible ... does support the traditional family ...

What is the traditional family and where does the Bible support it?

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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So, I was wrong. [Roll Eyes]

There's something disturbingly incongruous about a racist, sexist, bigoted person like Anglican2009 objecting to the word 'fuck'. It's like the offense-ometer has been turned upside down.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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He came back [Big Grin] .

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Marvin the Martian: "And right-wing, prejudiced, racist, homophobic, chauvinism isn't politics?" The Bible is not homophobic and chauvinistic, but does support the traditional family and gives the headship to the husband.

Tomayto, tomahto.

quote:
Homophobia means an irrational atavistic phobia of homosexuals.
It also means hatred of homosexuality. Look it up if you don't believe me.

quote:
Christians have never had a chauvinistic hatred of women, but they taught women to accept their role in society and the family. Social equality is impossible to achieve and not part of the Christian remit. The BCP catechism is clear: order yourself reverent and lowly to all your betters and accept that station in life to which it shall please God to call you.
Ha ha! Christianity as an agent for the social status quo - I think not!

Tell me, do you mourn the loss of slavery? The civil rights movement? Female suffrage? I bet you think all those uppity slaves, coloureds and women should have just known their place, right?

Does it burn you to know that Christianity played a part in all three movements? Oh, I hope it does.

quote:
The CofE in 1900 would never had accepted Islam in England
Since the practice of Islam was legalised in this country under the Trinitarian Act of 1812, I rather think they would. Muslims, of course, had been living on these shores since at least two hundred years before that date.

I submit that you are talking out of your arse.

quote:
No, Christianity is not wonderfully broad and diverse: if you disagee with the consensus fidelium then you are just not in the church, that's all.
The evidence would appear to prove you wrong on that one as well - there are a lot of Christian churches with sometimes large differences in belief and practice.

Which church are you in, anyway? If you're Anglican you're not really in any position to be throwing anathemas!

quote:
May I call on all members of this Ship of Fools to refrain from foul language. I could dig out some Bible verses on that subject too it necessary. I don't expect to read the F-word on a Christian website.
I don't give a flying fuck what you expect to see on a Christian website. We're not answerable to you, or to your fucked up version of the faith.

In fact, I am very tempted to declare this thread a free for all for all those muppets who try to be Hellish by throwing in a few "fuck"s or "shit"s to do their thing. I won't though, coz they annoy me more than you.

And don't bother pulling out all those verses about swearing - we all know they refer to the swearing of oaths, not what we call swear words.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Anglican2009
Bigot
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Alan Cresswell, just because male and females, Jews and Greeks, slaves and free can all be saved does not mean that you can pretend your left-wing politics is some form of Christianity. Take slaves and free - they can both be saved, but as Paul made clear, slaves are to cheerfully accept their lot and serve their masters well, and their masters are to treat their slaves well. The way in which the slaves and free put their faith into practice is different, owing to the institution of slavery, but both can be saved. You are guilty of what St Peter calls twisting the Scriptures to your destruction. Did you even bother to check whether your interpretation of the verse corresponded with the teaching of the Church over 19 centuries? Clearly not. Why pretend you are a Christian when you are a Communist? Because you think it adds a veneer of goodness or morality to your socialist views? Is that it?
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Pretty Butterfly
Shipmate
# 15024

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Prettybutterfly your "religion" boils down to this: "Jesus was a nice guy who was misguided. He said some pretty nasty things about hell and was rude to the Pharisees, but that reflected the cutlure of the time. He was personable, and although we can't believe anything the Bible said, I believe Jesus was a nice guy".

Did you even read what I wrote about not assuming (often incorrect) things about people then judging on the basis of this?

That you persist in doing so after you have been called on it smacks of arrogance.

In this case, you are flat out wrong.

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Ricardus
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# 8757

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quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
[QBYou have created Christianity according to your image and likeness. The liberals have created a liberal Christianity, the conservatives a conservative, the traditionalists a traditional, the fundamentalists a fundamentalist, the wackos a wacky, the moderates a moderate...[/qb]

And how exactly this is different from your philosophy of life?
quote:
It may well be a useful coping mechanism, it may satisfy psychological or even spiritual needs, but it's not the Truth and many of you already suspect that.
OK, since you can read my mind so effectively, tell me:

What number am I thinking of now?

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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GreyFace
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Anglican2009, I think you're a troll. But here goes.

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
GreyFace: the truths that were taught by the apostles are the Christian Faith. To claim you can teach the direct opposite of what the apostles said and still be a Christian is ridiculous.

I was arguing with Andrew, not you. Until very recently Andrew would have said you were not a Christian, because you are not a member of the Orthodox Church, which he then believed was the one that had it right, but possibly only bits of it that agreed with him. Now, he's no longer a Christian so he'll tell you you're wrong about everything whatever you say, but he still wants to say we're wrong because we disagree with the apostles, with whom he doesn't even agree himself.

Are you going to argue that if a man believes a woman need not wear a headscarf in church, he puts himself outside the Church? I just wondered. Because that's the plain meaning of your words.

quote:
There is not just the Bible but the tradition of the church, which interprets the Bible.
There is? Why did nobody tell me this until now??!!! [Eek!]

quote:
The Bible and traditional Church teaching show clearly: there is no salvation outside the church; only men can be ordained and celebrate Holy Communion; sexual activity is to be conducted within marriage only and not between people of the same sex. To suddenly reverse on all of this just shows your beliefs amount to no more than "we should try to be nice and not upset the Muslims/gays/feminists".
I haven't stated my position on any of these matters. However, I consider your attribution of such motives to those who interpret Scripture and Tradition differently from you on one or more of these matters as bearing false witness. How do you respond?

quote:
Actually Anglican clergy are paid using the £7bn built up over the centuries, largely from Queen Anne's Bounty and the Church Commissioners -- Anglicans of centuries ago would have been astonished to see that out-and-out heretics, blasphemers and perverts are living on the money today!
Oh good, if you're right then parishes across the line will breathe a sigh of relief at no longer having to pay parish share to fund clergy stipends. Or you could just be wrong. And there are other Anglican Churches than the Church of England, you know. You might not have noticed yet, most of them have only been around for a few centuries.

I'm amused at your appeal to Pope Pius. What would he have said about your membership of an ecclesial community that has no valid orders, no sacraments, isn't even a church, holds heretical beliefs and ceased to be Catholic in the sixteenth century? Really, for a traditionalist you have no standards.

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El Greco
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# 9313

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Greyface et al:

We have heard both stories before.

The fist story is a generality. That you reply to very specific charges with generalities is a sign that you have lost the game.

So, you do not accept the infallibility of Saint Unheardof. And you make a plausible explanation about how you can be a Christian and not accept the infallibility of a Saint of old.

But what was the charge exactly? That you reject not Saint Unheardof's interpretation of the bible, but that you reject the bible itself, well the portions you don't like.

Since when is Moses Saint Unheardof? Or Apostle Paul? Or Jesus son of Nun? Or the righteous of the Old Testament?

By rejecting what those whom you consider as your ancestors in faith held sacred, you are introduce inconsistencies and undermine your own faith. After all, if you can change the ancient faith, others can make changes in your faith. But you don't mind that, because the past is dead and the future is not yet to come. However, this is not intellectually consistent. In other words, the fluid Christianity you defend is full of holes.

The King is naked, and the moment someone points that out, you get into story two.

I must have been a fundamentalist Christian sticking to idiosyncratic versions of Christianity because I didn't agree with your Supermarket version of Christianity that is so fluid you split and split and split and revise and revise and revise.

But personal attacks wont answer my arguments. It is the lack of counter-arguments that puts the seal in Christianity's bankruptcy. Society has already moved on. And those who choose to stick, have to resort to evasions and personal attacks to preserve their vision of faithfulness to the faith.

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GreyFace
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Andrew me old mate, if I ask nicely, would you tell Anglican2009 why he's a heretick for believing in

a) The double procession of the Spirit
b) Anglican modalism
c) Salvation outside the Orthodox Church
d) Anything else that springs to mind?

Then you can tell him how rubbish in your view Christianity is as well, if you're feeling that way inclined. Thanks. [Biased]

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Why pretend you are a Christian when you are a Communist? Because you think it adds a veneer of goodness or morality to your socialist views? Is that it?

Supporting the abolition of slavery, female suffrage, and equal rights for all races makes one a Communist? I spy with my little eye, something beginning with 'T'!

--------------------
"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Pooks
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Oh fooey! I was prepared to give Anglican2009 the benefit of the doubt of possibly being someone with the irony bar set on very high, because surely no Christian in their right mind would think crusade is a good case for validating the Bible or Christianity if it's not done as a joke. Alas, I am mistaken. [Snore]

Oh well, I'll just go back to chewing my carrot now, it's more interesting.

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El Greco
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quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
Andrew me old mate, if I ask nicely, would you tell Anglican2009 why he's a heretick for believing in

No I am not. Because from the very beginning, there was no single Christian faith. There were all sorts of canons, and gospels, and teachings, all sorts of stances and opinions, all sorts of ethical norms and rituals.

Those groups fought with each other, until we have the Emperor putting his royal stamp in Jesus being God and having those who disagreed silenced.

And even then, more controversies erupted, about all sorts of theological minutiae, more fighting, more persecutions, more political intrigue.

Of course, all this happens because people tried to make a religion out of a Jewish rabbi. Hence it doesn't matter what you actually believe, hence the fluidity of modern Christian beliefs.

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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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Yes squiggle, you're right - can you go away now?

moving along....
fuck, fuckity, fuck, fuck fuck, there; it doesn't hurt anyone*

On the other hand, having to listen to your racist, bigotted, xenophobic bullshit that you try and pass for a religious faith is about as offensive as it gets.

Go play with traffic, you useless trail of old cat sick*

*stolen from two great comedy shows

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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GreyFace
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# 4682

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quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
Or Apostle Paul?

Yes, let's take Saint Paul as an illustration. I was recently reading "This is from the Lord... this is from me..." from him. What's his point? I can't get anything from that other than that his own opinions and commandments are not to be taken as having the same authority as that of Christ. Presumably there is some room for disagreement with him, in his own thought. I conclude that to take Saint Paul's words on all matters as the definitive commandment of God is thus to contradict Saint Paul.

quote:
By rejecting what those whom you consider as your ancestors in faith held sacred, you are introduce inconsistencies and undermine your own faith.
Perhaps, but only a fool would claim that every last bit of the faith is as critical as every other. I'll take the risk. The alternative is to take your path and abandon Christ.

quote:
However, this is not intellectually consistent. In other words, the fluid Christianity you defend is full of holes.
You are mistaken. It is not intellectually consistent to believe that every last element of the faith must be held for the faith to have any meaning. You are like someone who says, Newton's laws of motion do not apply at relativistic speeds, therefore all science is claptrap.

quote:
I must have been a fundamentalist Christian sticking to idiosyncratic versions of Christianity because I didn't agree with your Supermarket version of Christianity that is so fluid you split and split and split and revise and revise and revise.
Andrew, you didn't agree with anybody as far as I can tell. And now you're in a church of one, making up your religion. And you have the gall to accuse us.
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hatless

Shipmate
# 3365

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The more I think about it, the more sure I am, that no BCP quoting reactionary would say 'End of.' That was a mistake in Anglican2009's performance as she or he was settling into role.

I think A2009 is probably male, probably Anglican (no one who isn't would pretend to be, would they?), probably a vicar, and without question, very bored.

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My crazy theology in novel form

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GreyFace
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# 4682

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quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
Because from the very beginning, there was no single Christian faith.

You've finally got it! Hooray! If there was no single faith from the beginning, then there was no all-encompassing apostolic teaching, was there? So the Christians who followed had to work it out didn't they? Don't they?
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Loquacious beachcomber
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# 8783

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What Angliacan2009 said - in his OP and 2 additional posts.
Finally, someone who understands, and is willing to say so clearly.
[Overused] [Overused] [Overused] [Overused] [Overused] [Overused] [Overused] [Overused]

(Ain't youse the same blokes dat didn't want an Asshat of the Year award?)

[added more smilies]

[ 02. September 2009, 15:38: Message edited by: Redolent Spilogale Putorius ]

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TODAY'S SPECIAL - AND SO ARE YOU (Sign on beachfront fish & chips shop)

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art dunce
Shipmate
# 9258

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It's always so nice when a real Christian comes here to the center of the square and starts declaring, quite loudly I might add, that he is not like other men, ya know robbers, evildoers, adulterers since there's nothing Jesus liked more than those who were confident of their own righteousness while looking down on everybody else. The letter killeth, but the Spirit giveth life? Gutter gospel!

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Ego is not your amigo.

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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Goperryrevs: it is not a question of my hermeneutics. The tradition of the church in the first 19 centuries of its existence is clear. Your "social religion", otherwise known as socialism/liberalism, is simply heresy/apostasy - as indeed Pope Pius' Syllabus of Errors made clear in the 19th century. It's not a question of lack of sense of humour. Your game of mocking the Bible shows you do not believe in revealed religion, especially when it contradicts your socialist/liberal political views.

1. You have no idea about my religion, faith, or what I believe about anything. So don't assume you do.

2. It's not my game of mocking the Bible. I've not even posted on the Chapter & Worse section (although that doesn't mean I find the Bible amusing or difficult in places). As I said before, don't lump every single person on this website into one comfy category just because they post on the website.

3. I do believe in revealed religion, so don't tell me I don't, okay?

4. I don't have socialist/liberal political views. What makes you the expert on what I believe, just because I post on a website with a such a varied demographic?

5. Let's pick one issue that you raised - women. I believe it IS an issue of hermeneutic. Church History and the Bible both have things to say about it. I understand your point of view and how you came to it, but I think you're wrong. And that's not because I reject the Bible or Church History, but because my hermeneutic and conclusion is different to yours, and I think the argument against your point of view is more compelling than the arguments I've heard in its favour. Feel free to head over to Purgatory (or more likely Dead Horses) and we can discuss some of the issues you've raised. But don't tell me what I believe, and if you do want to debate, then you'd better at least attempt to open your mind to listen to other people's opinions.

--- Wow, I said all that without swearing! ---

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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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Oh wow! The OPer is a BCP fundamentalist. I've never met one of those. How exotic!

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Loveheart

Blue-scarved menace
# 12249

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Anglican2009, I'll pray for you. May God have mercy on your soul.

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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Redolent Spilogale Putorius:
(Ain't youse the same blokes dat didn't want an Asshat of the Year award?)

Nah, youse tinkin' a someone else.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Oh wow! The OPer is a BCP fundamentalist. I've never met one of those. How exotic!

But also an enthusiast for the idea of St. James taking a spiritual part in the Reconquista (a common-enough Counter-Reformation idea I believe, although not heard much these days) and for the Bulls of nineteenth-century Popes. So a whacked-out BCP Anglo-catholic fundamentalist. Pastor Hummerstone's evil twin, perhaps.

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Flinging wide the gates...

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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
# 6075

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
[Informal greeting] I read about your quest to find the "worst" Bible verse in the Daily Telegraph. [Yadda yadda]

You'll find it's not only about the bad Bible verses in the Daily Telegraph. It's about a lot of other rotten stuff in said rag as well. It's about Torygraph bashing.

Except for the Matt and Alex cartoons. Which are reasaonably pleasant.

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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El Greco
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# 9313

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quote:
Originally posted by GreyFace:
You've finally got it! Hooray! If there was no single faith from the beginning, then there was no all-encompassing apostolic teaching, was there? So the Christians who followed had to work it out didn't they? Don't they?

Pay closer attention to what I said.

There is no way of figuring out what the Apostles actually taught. At best, you are left with Paul, whose version of Christianity seems to be the one that won the imperial approval in the end (although with many modifications, the virgin birth being one of them).

For all we know, the Apostles may have been Jewish seeing Jesus as their rabbi and nothing more.

That there are many kinds of Christianity from the beginning (most of which were later defamed as "gnostics" and "heretics" by the party that won) does not mean that you can make things up as you go. And you can't do that, exactly because you do not accept that reading of history, because you assume that Jesus indeed started a new religion, and that he is the Christ and that he is God.

You are the children of the group that won, and now you want the right to make changes as you see fit. But you cannot do that unless you undermine the foundations of your faith. You want to have your cake and eat it, when the intellectually consistent thing to do is either to reject the whole thing, or stick to your orthodoxies to the end.

Of course, you don't want to throw Christ out ("want" being the keyword, because it's about irrational wishes rather than intellectual arguments), but, at the same time, you cannot go back and pretend Christianity got it right when everything in life tells you that the exact opposite is true. So, you end up holding intellectually untenable positions and getting pissed off the moment someone points that out.

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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.

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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

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Andrew - I've started a thread in Dead Horses about the fallibility of the Bible, and the problems it may or may not raise.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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I'm beginning to think he's a Sock Puppet instead of a Troll (or maybe a trolling Sock Puppet). He knows the Ship too well, knows which buttons to push, knows which people to go after. Some of it just sounds too familiar, I just can't place him.

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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Yorick

Infinite Jester
# 12169

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It's not me.

Just saying.

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این نیز بگذرد

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Loveheart

Blue-scarved menace
# 12249

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I never thought I'd say this, but I want the old Andrew back!

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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Loveheart:
I never thought I'd say this, but I want the old Andrew back!

There's very little actual difference between the two versions. The arrogance and assumptions of bad faith haven't changed, only the perspective that feeds them has.

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Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
GreyFace
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# 4682

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quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
at the same time, you cannot go back and pretend Christianity got it right when everything in life tells you that the exact opposite is true. So, you end up holding intellectually untenable positions and getting pissed off the moment someone points that out.

It's not that that pisses me off. It's your arrogance, and your deliberate refusal to understand anything anybody posts that disagrees with whatever your deeply-held conviction is this week. I've explained several times why your argument there is utterly inapplicable, but you just can't get past it.

I'm finished arguing with you. It's pointless.

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Jahlove
Tied to the mast
# 10290

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
I'm beginning to think he's a Sock Puppet instead of a Troll (or maybe a trolling Sock Puppet). He knows the Ship too well, knows which buttons to push, knows which people to go after. Some of it just sounds too familiar, I just can't place him.

Sounds like a refugee from Have Your Say

As they say on

spEak You're bRanes

what an animal's fanny

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“Sing like no one's listening, love like you've never been hurt, dance like nobody's watching, and live like its heaven on earth.” - Mark Twain

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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383

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quote:
I'm beginning to think he's a Sock Puppet instead of a Troll (or maybe a trolling Sock Puppet). He knows the Ship too well, knows which buttons to push, knows which people to go after. Some of it just sounds too familiar, I just can't place him.

Yep. The OP is just a little too OTT, a little too contrived. And why are they posting a long rant about an obscure Torygraph article at 7.40 am? Chronic insomnia?
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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GMT is not the only time zone on the planet. [Roll Eyes]

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
It's not me.

Well done [Biased]
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Pretty Butterfly
Shipmate
# 15024

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Although, most people that read the Telegraph are in GMT.

And davelarge, I'm confused. Are you a socialist or a communist? Make up your mind! [Razz]

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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I tend to read the Guardian, but I'm not on GMT, so I'm not sure if I'm a Marxist, Leninist, or socialist; Christian, pagan, or (perhaps) the antichrist. Maybe I'm just confused. [Confused]

Perhaps Anglican2009 would enlighten me.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Hiro's Leap

Shipmate
# 12470

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quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
It's not me.

Just saying.

Uh huh. I reckon there's a decent chance everyone on the Ship is you.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
moron
Shipmate
# 206

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quote:
Originally posted by Hiro's Leap:
Uh huh. I reckon there's a decent chance everyone on the Ship is you.

'Yorick is God' explains a LOT.

[Paranoid]

Posts: 4236 | From: Bentonville | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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