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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: The worst Bible verse
Loveheart

Blue-scarved menace
# 12249

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quote:
Originally posted by prettybutterfly:
Although, most people that read the Telegraph are in GMT.

Actually I thought we were on BST at the moment (don't forget to insert 'ull' and 'hi' in the appropriate places [Two face] )

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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi

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Dumpling Jeff
Shipmate
# 12766

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Pooks wrote,
quote:
I was prepared to give Anglican2009 the benefit of the doubt of possibly being someone with the irony bar set on very high, because surely no Christian in their right mind would think crusade is a good case for validating the Bible or Christianity if it's not done as a joke.
While perhaps not in my right mind, I to find the crusades a valid Christian effort. I recognize the horrible excesses of the times and of wars in general, but Christianity was under threat of extermination. Nowhere in the Bible or the history of the Church are we told to allow our faith to be destroyed.

I agree with Anglican2009 that sometimes we go to far in dismissing verses we don't agree with. But I also see the counter-point that love requires openness and acceptance. There's a fine line between the two and we must each do our best to find it.

She (I'll assume she's a she) forgets that many smart people have thought about this subject. She is unwilling to listen to them, to love them, or to trust them.

Islam's threat to Christianity comes not from those who believe in God, but from those who profess Islam for their own gain, be it power, money, or just the good feeling they get from lording over their students. Those who truly submit to the will of God are not a threat to one another.

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"There merely seems to be something rather glib in defending the police without question one moment and calling the Crusades-- or war in general-- bad the next. The second may be an extension of the first." - Alogon

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rosamundi

Ship's lacemaker
# 2495

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
The Old Testament teaches us that God commanded the ancient Israelites to strike down the Amalekites and the practitioners of false religion - and in our day today an application would be to oppose multiculturalism and prevent England from sliding into Islamism.

Oh I see - I should be running amok down the High Street with a broadsword, perforating all those horrid foreigners?

Dammit, I've already made plans for this weekend.

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Website.
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Geneviève

Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
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Well then, Rosamundi, hand back all your Christian jewelry and other gewgaws; you just do not have "revealed" religion.

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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)

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Organ Builder
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quote:
Originally posted by DmplnJeff:
She (I'll assume she's a she)...

If I correctly read this to mean you are talking about the OP'er, I seriously doubt it.

When someone brings up Headship without being asked, it's usually a man.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Geneviève

Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
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This has got to be a send-up, my fellow fallen-off-the-wagon would-be Christians and assorted hangers-on. Even the Anglican Communion, with all the talent at its disposal, could not produce such a nitwit.

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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)

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rosamundi

Ship's lacemaker
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quote:
Originally posted by Geneviève:
Well then, Rosamundi, hand back all your Christian jewelry and other gewgaws; you just do not have "revealed" religion.

Sadly, the only Christian jewellery I have is this (which is considerably more battered these days than in that picture), and you're not having that.

Although I am sorely, sorely tempted by a pair of these Miraculous medal earrings.

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Website.
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The Great Gumby

Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Loveheart:
I never thought I'd say this, but I want the old Andrew back!

There's very little actual difference between the two versions. The arrogance and assumptions of bad faith haven't changed, only the perspective that feeds them has.
Ain't that the truth! The old Squiggle was absolutely positive that every single one of his crazy, idiosyncratic interpretations of the mumblings of some stoned beardy hermits had to be correct, or the whole of Christianity was a massive crock. The new version believes exactly the same thing, but favours the other option.

They're both arrogant fucktards, as well, but that goes without saying.

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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman

A letter to my son about death

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sanityman
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quote:
Originally posted by davelarge:
GMT is not the only time zone on the planet. [Roll Eyes]

GMT +1:00 at the moment, which makes it more likely. And given what I remember of tone of the Torygraph's religious coverage, it's depressingly likely Anglican2009 is for real (although quoting Pope's past or present is bad form for an 'Anglican'). Although I admit that was back in the day of William Oddie's "contributions" to the Women's ordination debate.

- Chris.

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Prophesy to the wind, to the wind only for only the wind will listen - TS Eliot

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Figbash

The Doubtful Guest
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Of course this spans 1000 years of history, but the Crusades were a desperate attempt to prevent the Muslims from conquering the Holy Land. If you just think of the methods of conversion by the sword used by the Arabs, you can see the Crusades probably saved Europe proper from a dreadful fate.

I know this is just me being anal retentive, but this is just so, so, so, so WRONG that I don't know where to start.

Jerusalem was taken by 'the Muslims' in the seventh century. The First Crusade recaptured it in 1099. So 'desperate attempt to prevent the Muslims from capturing the Holy Land' my arse.

Emperor Alexius wanted western muscle to help him hold back the Turks. Pope Urban wanted to get the Holy Land back. Many of the western nobles taking part were younger sons who wanted fiefs of their own. Motives were mixed?

Oh yes, and who says 'the Muslims' converted at sword-point? That was more likely to be the crusaders.

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Pooks
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quote:
Originally posted by DmplnJeff:

Pooks wrote,
quote:
I was prepared to give Anglican2009 the benefit of the doubt of possibly being someone with the irony bar set on very high, because surely no Christian in their right mind would think crusade is a good case for validating the Bible or Christianity if it's not done as a joke.
While perhaps not in my right mind, I to find the crusades a valid Christian effort. I recognize the horrible excesses of the times and of wars in general, but Christianity was under threat of extermination. Nowhere in the Bible or the history of the Church are we told to allow our faith to be destroyed.
My dear Jeff, please read for comprehension. Given the rant in the OP is about people not taking the bible seriously and that therefore they couldn’t possibily be Christian. He then used crusade and slaughter of non-Christians as an example for us to learn from (albeit not necessary on a personal level). I responded by saying that crusade does not provide a good case for validating the Bible or Christianity. Crusade to the Holy Land may very well be a valid effort, but a valid effort is not the same as validating Christianity as a faith to the world.

My knowledge of history is sketchy at best, but from what I have heard, I am not convinced that Christianity was under the threat of extermination at the time. Most of Western Europe was Christian at the time of the crusades. For Islam to exterminate Christianity, it would have had to conquer the whole of Europe. I am not sure it could have stretched that far, but that’s besides the point.

quote:
I agree with Anglican2009 that sometimes we go to far in dismissing verses we don't agree with. But I also see the counter-point that love requires openness and acceptance. There's a fine line between the two and we must each do our best to find it.
I don’t dismiss any verses, because I believe whether we like it or not they provide a context to our understanding of how our faith has developed over time. How well I understand it and how I respond to it is a different matter.
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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Figbash:
Jerusalem was taken by 'the Muslims' in the seventh century. The First Crusade recaptured it in 1099. So 'desperate attempt to prevent the Muslims from capturing the Holy Land' my arse.

From the tone of the fuckwit's posts, I wouldn't be surprised if he considers the "Holy Land" to be England. Or Western Europe at a push.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
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Isn't it odd how squiggle finds an affinity with someone who is equally as arrogant as he is? Well, I guess it's not really that surprising. I still think (judging from past anti-semitism) that squiggle finally worked out that Jesus was a Jew and couldn't cope with this revelation.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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El Greco
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Why do you get into denial mode fletcher christian? Is it easier for you to cope your lack of answers to my arguments by directing your focus on me and not on the arguments? I have seen the play numerous times. You won't even recognize that what you are doing is problematic. Oh well. Not a great defense for your faith, but perhaps it really is indefensible.
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Yerevan
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# 10383

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quote:
GMT is not the only time zone on the planet.
Funnily enough I do know that, but the OPer does seem to be in the UK...
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la vie en rouge
Parisienne
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I know I should know better, but I'm getting a warm fuzzy pentecostal glow from knowing that for once, just for once the raving nutcase is an Anglican and not one of ours! [Yipee]

(I've always thought that it must be some kind of proof that I really do believe in my particular branch of Christianity that I put up with having such embarassing correligionists)

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Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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Lord Jestocost
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# 12909

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Am I the only one to find this bit the funniest?

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Matt Black: yes the CofE is hopelessly apostate. But we had one Reformation and I would like to see Parliament order another.

I would so love to read the Hansard record for that day.
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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
Am I the only one to find this bit the funniest?

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Matt Black: yes the CofE is hopelessly apostate. But we had one Reformation and I would like to see Parliament order another.

I would so love to read the Hansard record for that day.
"And the Spirit of the LORD came upon the Rt Hon Member for Milton Keynes South West and he spake and said..."
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Figbash

The Doubtful Guest
# 9048

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
Am I the only one to find this bit the funniest?

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Matt Black: yes the CofE is hopelessly apostate. But we had one Reformation and I would like to see Parliament order another.

I would so love to read the Hansard record for that day.
"And the Spirit of the LORD came upon the Rt Hon Member for Milton Keynes South West and he spake and said..."
Wouldn't it be Ian Paisley who, moved in sundry places, rose to his feet and declaimed 'No Popery!'
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Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

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What's wrong with pot pourri - it gets rid of nasty niffs in my toilet. I hate to think what Big Ian's khazi smells like... [Projectile]

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Figbash

The Doubtful Guest
# 9048

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
What's wrong with pot pourri - it gets rid of nasty niffs in my toilet. I hate to think what Big Ian's khazi smells like... [Projectile]

[Eek!] Gah. Brain bleach. Now.
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Leetle Masha

Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209

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From Tuesday's Hansard Record:

"Mr. Speaker: 'May I say at the start of questions that the Secretary of State’s enthusiasm always to engage with the question and respond fully is widely respected throughout the House, but comprehensiveness must not stray into prolixity?' "

Would this procedure be effective in controlling the utterances of the Hon. Member from Milton Keynes South West, Firenze? Our methods over here for controlling filibusters do not always work very well....

[Biased]

Mary

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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
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Depending on the Speaker it is likely to be more direct, such as:

"Order, order. The Hon. Member will sit down."

Of course if the Hon. Member is a Torygraph-reading revealed-Christian that would be a sure indication that the Speaker is a Communist-Liberal-Socialist-Anti-Racist-Environmentalist.

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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."

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Matt Black

Shipmate
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I've come across this conflation of 'socialist-liberal-communist-Marxist' from some of the more frothing fundies I banter with on Another Board, and have always found it rather odd...

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Laurie17
Shipmate
# 14889

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quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
more frothing fundies

And this is prett good too ! [Smile]

'more frothing fundies' - I love that !

Ta very much

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when thee touched my heart
I were undone like dropped blossom
Daw'r ffordd yn glir yn araf deg.

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Laurie17
Shipmate
# 14889

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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Jestocost:
Am I the only one to find this bit the funniest?

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Matt Black: yes the CofE is hopelessly apostate. But we had one Reformation and I would like to see Parliament order another.

I would so love to read the Hansard record for that day.
'You are not alone ... '

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when thee touched my heart
I were undone like dropped blossom
Daw'r ffordd yn glir yn araf deg.

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Figbash

The Doubtful Guest
# 9048

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quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Depending on the Speaker it is likely to be more direct, such as:

"Order, order. The Hon. Member will sit down."

Of course if the Hon. Member is a Torygraph-reading revealed-Christian that would be a sure indication that the Speaker is a Communist-Liberal-Socialist-Anti-Racist-Environmentalist.

You forgot Feminist and Gay-lover.
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Pre-cambrian
Shipmate
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Sorry. And Vegetarian and Beard-Wearing and Someone-Who-Has-Been-Known-To-Eat-Their-Roast-Beef-Less-Than-Well-Done-Which-Is-A-Filthy-Foreign-Habit.

(The fact that the last two are mutually contradictory doesn't bother the frothers.)

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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
...the Speaker is a Communist-Liberal-Socialist-Anti-Racist-Environmentalist.

Do you know John Bercow personally? Sounds like my kind of Tory. [Big Grin]

Actually, while we're on the subject, he's going to face a challenge from a frothing fundy of a different kind at the next election.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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St. Stephen the Stoned
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# 9841

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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
"Left-wing social religionist"? Moi? [Killing me]

I'm fairly sure you're to the left of someone who thinks Christians should rise up (with the help of zombies) and put the Muslims to the sword in the manner of the Reconquista.

Heck, Nick Griffin is to the left of such a person ...

The OP reminds me not a little of a BNP rant. And the BNP have been trying to cosy up the the Church of England for some time in the fond belief that there exists a within the Church a core of racist bigots who will buy the BNP's white-supremecist bullshit by the barrowload in the interest of defending the faith, England, cricket, cucumber sandwiches, and All We Hold Dear. I've had intellectual (hem hem) debates with the likes of him elsewhere. Never met one quite so articulate, though.

Hang on! You don't think...Maybe Anglican2009 is the one-eyed Welsh git himself! If so, Croeso i Sip, Fatty*.


*(Welcome to the Ship, ffatso.)

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Do you want to see Jesus or don't yer? Well shurrup then!

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ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
# 10578

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I dunno. I used to be on the right but it was Christianity that actually turned me into a feminist/socialist/environmentalist type.

I am having a lot of trouble squaring the OP with the Sermon on the Mount and Matthew 25.

Secondly no Christian believes every verse in the Bible is equal to every other verse. Even the conservative evangelicals who embrace inerrancy don't. Everyone cherry picks Scripture. Jesus did it. St. Paul did it. We do it.

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"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Alan Cresswell, just because male and females, Jews and Greeks, slaves and free can all be saved does not mean that you can pretend your left-wing politics is some form of Christianity.

Well, I would argue that my "left-wing politics" is certainly preferable to some neo-Nazi expressions of so-called Christianity that some have expoused. When we're clearly taught that "the first commandment is 'love the Lord your God' and the second 'love your neighbour as yourself'", and told that these two commandments sum up the whole Law and Prophets, what room is there then for anything less than loving our brothers and sisters (both those who share our faith and those who don't), regardless of secondary issues such as race, gender, sexuality, religious affiliation?

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Never piss off a virgin with a broadsword.

Almost as bad an idea as being rude to that smelly old tramp with a long beard, an injured hand, and one eye missing.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Never piss off a virgin with a broadsword.

Almost as bad an idea as being rude to that smelly old tramp with a long beard, an injured hand, and one eye missing.
What have you done to your eye???

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
The more I think about it, the more sure I am, that no BCP quoting reactionary would say 'End of.' That was a mistake in Anglican2009's performance as she or he was settling into role.

I think A2009 is probably male, probably Anglican (no one who isn't would pretend to be, would they?), probably a vicar, and without question, very bored.

Maybe, maybe...

but surely no BCP fundamentalist (& few English speakers of any stripe) would give the time of day to the idea that St James slaughtered the Moors over seven centuries after he was knocked off by the Romans (more like twelve if you postpone it till the Reconquista - what was he doing all that time?)

What BCP fundamentalist would write "here is not just the Bible but the tradition of the church, which interprets the Bible"?

I'm wondering if the "Anglican" in Anglican2009 isn't a deliberate bit of obfuscation?

And what self-respecting BCP-fundamentalist would give a fig for Pope Pius's Syllabus of Errors? What BNP supporter would? It ought to have them reaching for their blue bonnets and whistling Lilibulero?

Yes, this sounds fascist and racist but it sounds Roman Catholic to me. And not very BNP. Almost Francoist. If this guy ever was an Anglican by religion I think he swam the Tiber long ago (or maybe the Ebro) and is one of those odd ex-Anglicans who delights in telling the world how perverse the raisin-cake-eating Anglican buggers have become. (Why is it that some of those who are most vehement in relaying the old nonsense that the Church of England is not Protestant are people who exited the Anglican Communion Romewards years ago? Is it because of all those sodomites with unpleasant accents?)

That or a neocon-clone trying to push the Eurarabia/Londonistan lie and adopting what they think is British-sounding protective colouration. Anyone can read the Telegraph on-line.

As can anyone read the old Anglican catechism on-line - a document that few English people are likely to have been made to learn for at least the last 150 years and probably none at all for the last 50. Though if Anglican2009 had looked it up he might not have misquoted the BCP's "state of life" as "station in life", a phrase which might I think occur in the equivalent part of the old Catholic catechism, and "lowly and reverently" as "reverent and lowly", which might be from the carol Angel hosts in bright array - which is American and I think little-known in Britain. (*)

The voice of Anglican2009 sounds like a mish-mash of the worst parts of Melanie Phillips and Hilaire Belloc (and he did have some VERY bad parts mixed in with the genius)


quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Actually Anglican clergy are paid using the £7bn built up over the centuries, largely from Queen Anne's Bounty and the Church Commissioners -- Anglicans of centuries ago would have been astonished to see that out-and-out heretics, blasphemers and perverts are living on the money today!

Nope. Bollocks. Rubbish. Untrue lies. This smells of something copied verbatim from an anti-Anglican tract. And one written from a position of ignorance - whoever wrote it doesn't know what "Queen Anne's Bounty" was. Another clue that whoever wrote the OP they probably aren't either English or Anglican. (Or if they are they have such a cultural tin ear that they have no place to stand to criticise the rest of us)

I think the continual whinging about Communism and Marxism is another clue. Anglican2009 makes no distinctions along the spectrum of left-wingness from people who think its a good idea to treat others as we would like to be treated (didn't Jesus have something to say about that?) through "social liberals" like the gay-friendly ECUSA types (who often feel like right-wingers to people like me), through mild lefties like Alan Cresswell (maybe Alan can get a Marxist Shipmate of the Year award [Killing me] ), through us died-in-the-wool left Socialists, thorough to proper Marxists and Communists. That kind of confusion of categories is a much more American right-wing thing than a British right-wing one.

And it sits oddly with all the moaning about how us supposedly Marxist pseudo-Christians are all soft and limpwristed and unwilling to slaughter our enemies. Since when was being soft a characteristic of self-proclaimed Marxist-Leninist regimes?!!!! [Eek!] Were the old Soviets unwilling to slaughter their enemies? (with or without help from long-dead Judean rabbis) Anglican2009, if you really are an Anglican and really are a Christian and really are anywhere in England I suggest that you hie yourself to London and go to the Imperial War Museum and look at their T34 and thank God for the tank that saved Europe from the anti-Christian atheistic (with a bit of neo-pagan ritual round the edges) gay-friendly Nazis. And pray for the souls of the millions of Russians who died in the name of Communism while saving your sorry arse.


(*) the phrase "reverent and lowly" also occurs in the old Puritan tract by Dod and Cleaver A godly form of household government for the ordering of private families, according to the direction of Gods word - but I doubt if he had that in mind becuase if you read it it becomes pretty obvious that were they alive today they Anglican2009 would despise them as social liberals.

quote:

For although the husband shall have power to force his wife to feare and obey him, yet he shall never have strength to force her to love him. Some husbands do boast themselves to be served, feared, and obeyed in their houses, because the wife that abhorreth doth feare and serve her husband, but she that indeed liketh, doth love him, and cherish him. As the wife ought with great care to endeavour, and by all good meanes to labour to be in favour and grace with her husband: so likewise the husband ought to feare to be in disgrace and disliking with his wife: for if she do once determine to fixe and settle her eyes and liking upon another, then many inconveniences will ensue and follow. The husband ought not to be satisfied with the use of his wives body, but in that he hath also the possession of her will and affections: for it sufficeth not that they be married, but that they be well married, and live Christianly together, and be very well contented. And therefore the husband that is not beloved of his wife, holdeth his goods in danger, his house in suspition, his credite in ballance, and also sometimes his life in perill: because it is reasonable to beleeue that she desireth not long life unto her husband, with whom she passeth a time so tedious and irksome.

That's us men told!

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by The Man With No Name:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Never piss off a virgin with a broadsword.

Almost as bad an idea as being rude to that smelly old tramp with a long beard, an injured hand, and one eye missing.
What have you done to your eye???
He was a bit taller than me. And had more of the smell of dead flesh about him.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ken
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Anglican2009 could also do with some lessons in reading the Bible literally. She, he, or it is very bad at it.

quote:

Social equality is impossible to achieve and not part of the Christian remit.

Tell that to the God who inspired the prophet Joel to preach that in the last days God will pour out his Spirit upon all flesh; and the sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and the young men shall see visions, and the old men dream dreams - the Spirit will be poured out on even the slaves and the slavewomen and they shall prophesy. And who inspired Peter to preach that same message to the people in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost, and Luke to write into the Book of Acts, as a sort of manifesto for the Church. In the Kingdom of God (which is among us now, as well as in the future) the women and the children and the slaves have the Spirit of the God of Prophecy in a way denied even to kings and priests in the old dispensation. The last will be first and the first will be last (and it was Jesus who said that).

Anglican2009, you don't read the Bible literally enough.

quote:

The Bible and traditional Church teaching show clearly: there is no salvation outside the church;

Traditional Church teaching may - the Bible doesn't. Since when was Abraham a member of the Christian Church on earth? But his faith was counted to him as righteousness. Melchizidek wasn't even a Jew. (Neither, probably, was Caleb originally, but he and his children were given a portion in the land of Judah). Anglican2009, you don't read the Bible literally enough.

quote:

only men can be ordained and celebrate Holy Communion;

It doesn't say either of those things in the Bible. Anglican2009, you don't read the Bible literally enough.

quote:

Jesus specifically stated that divorce was equivalent to adultery.

No, he didn't. Or if he did its not in the Bible. He said that a man who divorces a women for any other reason than sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery. That's what it actually says. The most obvious rule to derive from that would be that if an unjustly divorced women remarries the sin is her first husband's not hers, though of course it doesn;t sayu that explicitly. But Jesus does explicitly say that divorce is not always equivalent to adultery (as does Paul later). If you take the gospel to mean that all divorce is adultery then you are adding your own cultural biases to the text. Anglican2009, you don't read the Bible literally enough.

quote:

May I call on all members of this Ship of Fools to refrain from foul language. I could dig out some Bible verses on that subject too it necessary.

What, Bible verses that tell us not to say "fuck"? I bet you can't. And many Bible writers - most notably Paul and Ezekiel - used crude language in inspired scripture. Anglican2009, you don't read the Bible literally enough.

quote:

The tradition of the undivided Church was to have a male ministry.

Not in the New Testament it wasn't. There are a number of women prophets and at least one woman deacon. That's unarguable. There is room for argument about whether there ever were women apostles or elders but there were at least some women ministers in the undivided Church. The Bible tells us so. Anglican2009, you don't read the Bible literally enough.

quote:

Of course Jesus was a man, and a woman who conduct a mock Eucharistic celebration is guilty of blasphemy, because she cannot stand in the place of Christ. The Bible and the tradition of the Church are in agreement on this.

Maybe you wrote your own, but the Bible God gave the Church says nothing at all about who may celebrate Holy Communion, nor whether or not that person stands in the place of Christ. Not one little verse on the matter at all. Anglican2009, you don't read the Bible literally enough.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Erroneous Monk
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# 10858

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by The Man With No Name:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Never piss off a virgin with a broadsword.

Almost as bad an idea as being rude to that smelly old tramp with a long beard, an injured hand, and one eye missing.
What have you done to your eye???
He was a bit taller than me. And had more of the smell of dead flesh about him.
Abu Hamza? Captain Hook?? It's been a long day.

Loved your last post though - probably the highlight of the day. :-)

--------------------
And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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El Greco
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# 9313

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
In the Kingdom of God (which is among us now, as well as in the future) the women and the children and the slaves have the Spirit of the God of Prophecy in a way denied even to kings and priests in the old dispensation.

Really? Cause I don't see much difference between the people. If the Spirit was real and some had it while others didn't, I would expect the difference to be obvious. Rather, what we see in real life (as opposed to the beautiful -but imaginary- theology you allude to) is that people are people are people. No difference. Sorry.

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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.

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Figbash

The Doubtful Guest
# 9048

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quote:
Originally posted by The Man With No Name:
Abu Hamza? Captain Hook?? It's been a long day.

I'm guessing he had a couple of tame ravens.
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Erroneous Monk
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# 10858

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quote:
Originally posted by Figbash:
quote:
Originally posted by The Man With No Name:
Abu Hamza? Captain Hook?? It's been a long day.

I'm guessing he had a couple of tame ravens.
This is so educational, cos I was thinking Edgar Allen Poe, and then I googled "beard, hand, eye, ravens" and hit "I feel lucky" and got...

Ken!!! No - only kidding - some bloke called Wotan?

--------------------
And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged
Anglican2009
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# 15061

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The OP reminds me not a little of a BNP rant.

What a ridiculous thing to say. It is like talking to a bunch of Pharisees - yes they were the self-righteous equivalents of the Ship of Fools in the 1st century. I am happy not to be supremacist - let them practice their cultures in their own countries, why shouldn't they? But we need to believe in our culture and traditions too, and that means protecting Europe as the Citadel on the Hill. As Hilaire Belloc said, the Faith is Europe and Europe is the Faith.

Secondly no Christian believes every verse in the Bible is equal to every other verse. Even the conservative evangelicals who embrace inerrancy don't. Everyone cherry picks Scripture. Jesus did it. St. Paul did it. We do it.

This is outright apostasy. Christians believe that the Bible is inspired by God. Conservative evangelicals do not cherrypick at all. There is no hierarchy of Bible verses.

The Christian religion=the teaching of the Church from AD33 to ca. 1960. Over those 19 centuries, there were disputes about some things, but there was also consensus on most things. It may be convenient for left-wing socialists to pick and choose which parts of the traditional teachings to keep, but why they are even bothering is the key question. It is clear that 99% of the people on this site are not Christians.

Actually I have just solved the riddle in my head. The Pharisees self-righteously claimed to be servants of the Lord in the 1st century although they were not, and it seems the Ship of Fools is the Ships of Pharisees today. You claim to be Christian just because it gives you the frisson of self-righteousness the Pharisees loved, but when push comes to shove you oppose nearly everything in the Good Book.

quote:
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life.
Alan Cresswell, what room is there then for anything less than loving our brothers and sisters (both those who share our faith and those who don't), regardless of secondary issues such as race, gender, sexuality, religious affiliation?

Well that "love" to those leading un-Biblical lifestyles implies our calling them to repentance. It is not "love" at all to falsely tell people that immorality is fine and will not lead to damnation. In fact that is the message of the Tempter himself! Love for people of other races and genders? Who has suggested that we should not love them? Why is letting England go Muslim "an act of love"? Why is approving of blasphemous pseudo-services by female "clergymen" "an act of love"? This is Phariseeism of the worst kind.

Ken: yes Christian women are required to preach the word too. Think of Gladys Aylward in China for example, and the role of Christian women in guiding younger sisters in the congregation. But nothing in the book of Joel says that women should be ordained as clergymen. As I have pointed out above, your private interpretation of the book of Joel has not been reconciled with the teaching of the church down through 19 centuries. That makes you a schismatic. All of your points are false or tendentious - there is a deaconess in the Bible, but unless you can show that Phoebe, as I think her name was, ministered in the place of male ministers who were present you don't have a point. She was probably ministering to female members of the congregation. Either way, the relevant Bible verse needs to be interpreted in the light of the teaching of the church over 19 centuries, and not subjected to a "private interpretation". All of the rest of your heretical musings are false too - yes, the Bible does show taht women cannot conduct a mock Eucharistic celebration: the priests in ancient Israel were men, and the principle carries over. And the issue has to be interpreted in the light of the teaching of the church over 19 centuries, and not subjected to a "private interpretation".

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Organ Builder
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"What's that smell in this room? Didn't you notice it, Brick? Didn't you notice the powerful and obnoxious odor of mendacity in this room?"

--------------------
How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Anglican2009
Bigot
# 15061

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The Scriptures do oppose bad language.

quote:
That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. Mk 7.
quote:
Put away from thee a froward mouth, and perverse lips put far from thee. Prov. 4:24
quote:
But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Col. 3:8
quote:
Out of the same mouth proceedeth blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not so to be. James 3:10
quote:
Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. Eph. 5:4
quote:
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

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pjkirk
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Anglican2009,

Please, don't stop there. I love this shit.

--------------------
Dear God, I would like to file a bug report -- Randall Munroe (http://xkcd.com/258/)

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Figbash

The Doubtful Guest
# 9048

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
I am happy not to be supremacist - let them practice their cultures in their own countries, why shouldn't they?

[Killing me] How generous of you, my dear.

quote:

This is outright apostasy. Christians believe that the Bible is inspired by God. Conservative evangelicals do not cherrypick at all. There is no hierarchy of Bible verses.


So I'm guessing you don't wear polycottons, and are very careful about putting your arse down on chairs menstruating women might have sat on? Have you ever boiled a kid in its mother's milk?

Not cherry-picking means just that: you have to accept all of it, even the barking mad stuff about how psoriasis sufferers should be cast out into the outer darkness.

Posts: 1209 | From: Gashlycrumb | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Callan
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# 525

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Originally posted by Anglican2009:

quote:
As Hilaire Belloc said, the Faith is Europe and Europe is the Faith.
Well now, that's Our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Apostles put in their place, isn't it (Not to mention SS Cyprian, Athanasius, Augustine, Felicity and Perpetua et. al.)

quote:
The Christian religion=the teaching of the Church from AD33 to ca. 1960. Over those 19 centuries, there were disputes about some things, but there was also consensus on most things. It may be convenient for left-wing socialists to pick and choose which parts of the traditional teachings to keep, but why they are even bothering is the key question.
The Sack of Constantinople, the Spanish rule over the Netherlands, the Thirty Years War (to pick the first three examples off the top of my head) may be characterised in many terms but can hardly be described as a 'consensus' without a severe risk of terminological inexactitude. For that matter the most recent cases of Christians settling their doctrinal quarrels with one another through the medium of bloodshed in Europe were between conservative Catholics and Presbyterians in Ireland and conservative Catholics and Serbian Orthodox in the erstwhile Yugoslavia. Some consensus.

quote:
It is clear that 99% of the people on this site are not Christians.
And I thought that it was God who judged the secrets of our hearts. Clearly He has competition.

Incidentally, for an alleged Anglican you seem fond of citing unreconstructed pre-Vatican II Catholics who were fairly notorious for a fairly, er, robust attitude to the Church's relationship with our mates the Jews. Do you regard the recent repudiation of the pretty quod semper, quod ubique, quod all that jazz bit about the Jews being detested Christ killers as part of the apostasy of modern times or do you have the decency to shelve it along with the Donation of Constantine, the canonisation of St. Simon of Trent, the condemnation of Galileo, the Church's opposition to lending money at interest, the various legislation in various Christian states against various Christians who differed in various ways from the official dogma and so forth? And if you are prepared to shelve that what are your criteria by which you consider the innovations you like whilst condemning as apostasy the innovations you don't like?

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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kentishmaid
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# 4767

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quote:
Originally posted by Figbash:
So I'm guessing you don't wear polycottons, and are very careful about putting your arse down on chairs menstruating women might have sat on? Have you ever boiled a kid in its mother's milk?

Not cherry-picking means just that: you have to accept all of it, even the barking mad stuff about how psoriasis sufferers should be cast out into the outer darkness.

I note he hasn't sold his computer and given the money to the poor, either.

--------------------
"Who'll be the lady, who'll be the lord, when we are ruled by the love of one another?"

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Otter
Shipmate
# 12020

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
It is clear that 99% of the people on this site are not Christians.

And all us horrible terrible no-good bad non-Christians here should give a flying fuck about what you think about our not-Christianity exactly why?

Viva la FSM!
Hail Eris!
Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Fthagn!

[Devil]

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The plural of "anecdote" is not "data", YMMV, limited-time offer, IANAL, no purchase required, and the state of CA has found this substance to cause cancer in laboratory aminals

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
It is like talking to a bunch of Pharisees - yes they were the self-righteous equivalents of the Ship of Fools in the 1st century.

Yes, because we're all arrogantly clinging to outdated purity laws rather than showing love for our fellow man, and we're all thanking God every day that we're not like those filthy sinners over there.

Oh wait, no we're not.

quote:
I am happy not to be supremacist - let them practice their cultures in their own countries, why shouldn't they? But we need to believe in our culture and traditions too, and that means protecting Europe as the Citadel on the Hill. As Hilaire Belloc said, the Faith is Europe and Europe is the Faith.
Told you! I said that was what he thought, and I was right! [Killing me]

Yeesh, what a nutjob.

quote:
This is outright apostasy. Christians believe that the Bible is inspired by God. Conservative evangelicals do not cherrypick at all. There is no hierarchy of Bible verses.
I bet you love bacon sandwiches, though. I know the New Testament allows that in contradiction to the Torah, but if there's no heirarchy of verses then why do you follow what the NT says and not the Law?

quote:
The Christian religion=the teaching of the Church from AD33 to ca. 1960. Over those 19 centuries, there were disputes about some things, but there was also consensus on most things.
Anyone who can so succinctly dismiss the Great Schism and the Reformation as merely "disputes over some things" has to be clinically insane. [Killing me] [Killing me]

God, I'm loving this thread [Big Grin]

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

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