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Source: (consider it) Thread: Hell: The worst Bible verse
Stejjie
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
[QUOTE]It seems St Paul sent the slave back to serve as a slave in Philemon's house, but asked Philemon to receive him as a brother - as a brother also as well as being as slave. Hawk, have you shown that your anti-slavery interpretation was taught by the Christian church for 19 centuries? How many of the Early Church Fathers believed those verses were anti-slavery? Otherwise, you are guilty of a private interpretation - you are twisting the Scriptures to your own destruction.

And you're skipping over whole parts of actual Scripture to support your own interpretation. As in verses 15-16, which says:

quote:
Perhaps this is the reason he was separated from you for a while, so that you might have him back for ever, no longer as a slave but as more than a slave, a beloved brother.
Reading that, I can't see how you can justify saying that Onesimus was to remain a slave.

Again: you accuse others of selectively reading the Bible to fit their own ends, but you're just as guilty (perhaps even more so).

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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

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Stejjie
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quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:


Again: you accuse others of selectively reading the Bible to fit their own ends, but you're just as guilty (perhaps even more so). [/QB]

Missed the edit window: that last bit should probably read: "you accuse others of selectively reading the Bible to fir their own ends, but it seems to be you who's guilty of that".

[ 08. September 2009, 12:11: Message edited by: Stejjie ]

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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

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Hawk

Semi-social raptor
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Hawk, I do not believe in dominating controling or ruling others. That's why the Third World is independent - and they can practice what they like in their countries. By the same token, I do not believe in our being dominated, controled or ruled by others, and that's why I don't believe in immigration, which is leading to English people becoming 2nd class citizens in their own country. If you Hawk believe in immigration, then you are a supremacist - you are a patsy for the ethnic supremacists.

Rubbish. How have you been dominated by a Muslim lately? When was the last time an immigrant controlled you? When was the English race declared to be second class in England? You say immigration leads to English people becoming 2nd class. Please explain how this is true, using evidence, not random BNP propaganda from a pamphlet you’ve been handed.

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Philemon is not a tract against slavery but rather a recognition that slaves can become our Christian brothers. I found some help in Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistle_to_Philemon. The writer their explains

Wikipedia is not an authority on Church or Biblical teaching – don’t stoop to quoting some anonymous wiki article to support your arguments, that’s just laughable.

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
It seems St Paul sent the slave back to serve as a slave in Philemon's house, but asked Philemon to receive him as a brother - as a brother also as well as being as slave.

As Stejjie pointed out – you are wrong. This is your private interpretation, purposefully ignoring what Paul is saying in order to support your argument. Paul specifically says: “…and more than a brother.” Now you claim that someone who doesn’t believe in the teaching of St Paul is an atheist heretic. Does that apply to you now? Since you are opposing Paul’s teaching and refusing to accept his writings.

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Hawk, have you shown that your anti-slavery interpretation was taught by the Christian church for 19 centuries? How many of the Early Church Fathers believed those verses were anti-slavery?

No, I haven’t, because that is not my position, that’s yours. You believe that the Church needs to claim a doctrine consistently for 19 centuries in order to make it true. Quoting an anonymous wikipedia summary of Luther’s opinion does not come up to your imposed high standards. Unless you can legitimately find evidence to back up your claim that slavery has been supported consistently by the Church for 19 centuries then, by your measure, you have failed to justify your argument.

--------------------
“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer

See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts

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sanityman
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quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
(Apologies for the double post)

Oh, and where does the Bible teach against Communism? (Leaving aside the fact that Communism was a philosophy developed in the 19th century). Or teach in favour of Capitalism?

Against communism? Well, let's see...

quote:
Acts 4:32-35 (NIV):
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

quote:
From Dictionary.com:
com⋅mu⋅nism  [kom-yuh-niz-uhm] –noun
1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.

Oh dear.

- Chris.

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Prophesy to the wind, to the wind only for only the wind will listen - TS Eliot

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Sioni Sais
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As my sainted Mother used to say "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind's made up". There was no point whatsoever debating with her.

She saw Communism in everything too. [Snore]

[ 08. September 2009, 13:04: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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la vie en rouge
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quote:
originally blathered by the troll:

You are just an atheist who believes in left-wing politics, trying to borrow the moral authority of the church. I hope your vicar denies you the privilege of communication.

Projection, projection, projection, it really is everywhere. Just change the word "left" to "right" and you get something remarkably accurate. [Cool]

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Rent my holiday home in the South of France

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Alicïa
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quote:
Originally posted by sanityman:
quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
(Apologies for the double post)

Oh, and where does the Bible teach against Communism? (Leaving aside the fact that Communism was a philosophy developed in the 19th century). Or teach in favour of Capitalism?

Against communism? Well, let's see...

quote:
Acts 4:32-35 (NIV):
All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales and put it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

quote:
From Dictionary.com:
com⋅mu⋅nism  [kom-yuh-niz-uhm] –noun
1. a theory or system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common, actual ownership being ascribed to the community as a whole or to the state.

Oh dear.

- Chris.

[Big Grin] It's beginning to look a lot like epic fail.

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"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world." Georgia Elma Harkness

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Anglican2009
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Philemon is not clear about the return of the slave. Where it says "have him back for ever no longer as a slave but as more than a slave, a brother", it probably means the spirit in which he is received. Although he is a slave and is being got back "for ever", as a Christian he is also a brother, and so should be treated as "more than a slave". The sense is "no longer JUST as a slave, but as more than a slave, a beloved brother".

Either way, your interpretation of Philemon has to be reconciled with Paul's other pronouncements on slavery and the magisterium of the church. On both counts, your interpretation is therefore heretical.

Acts 4: "from time time those who owned lands or houses sold them". So they may have made donations to the community from time to time, but they did own their own land - so, no communism.

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Eliab
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As a public service I have devised a simple but foolproof test to determine once and for all whether Anglican2009 is a deceitful troll, or whether he really means what he says.

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
No. This is heresy. Since where did St Paul argue that slaveowners and slaves should seek to abolish slavery? He argued simply that they should be nice to each other but accept the institution of slavery. This is not "striving for equality".

Right then - I hereby declare that I, Eliab, do take you, Anglican2009, and enslave you, with immediate effect. I reckon I have as much moral right to make you my slave as any human being ever had to enslave another, and so I have done. You are henceforth my property. I own you, and you are bound to serve and obey me in all things until I release or sell you.

I know that you're not going to rely on the products of an unChristian, Marxist, social religion, such as abolition, to argue that slavery is unjustified, because if you do you'll be selling out your Christian principles. I also know that it's against your principles to resist my dominion over you, even if I prove unable to enforce my demands, or do so unjustly. You are obliged to accept the institution of slavery, and serve me as if you were serving God, hoping thereby to win me, your earthly master, as a spiritual brother.

Now, slave, I order you to apologise to all these nice free men and women for insulting them and winding them up. Then, I order you to stop posting on this thread, and go and start a new thread entitled "Suggestions for the modern slave-owner", to help me think of some ideas for abusing our new relationship.

And don't argue or answer back. You're a slave now, and I won't have it. Debating with free people is unbecoming to one of your lowly condition.

--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Alicïa
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Philemon is not clear about the return of the slave. Where it says "have him back for ever no longer as a slave but as more than a slave, a brother", it probably means the spirit in which he is received. Although he is a slave and is being got back "for ever", as a Christian he is also a brother, and so should be treated as "more than a slave". The sense is "no longer JUST as a slave, but as more than a slave, a beloved brother".

You really are quite obsessed with power structures. Perhaps because you are a member of the "priviledged" class? ie white male. I don't see much Christian charity in you. Hardly worth the effort, but ...
quote:
The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor." (Luke 4:18-19).


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"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world." Georgia Elma Harkness

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pjkirk
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It's nice that A9 starts w/ telling us we need the Magisterium Of The Church, and ends up resorting to the magisterium of Wikipedia.

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Dear God, I would like to file a bug report -- Randall Munroe (http://xkcd.com/258/)

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
No. This is heresy. Since where did St Paul argue that slaveowners and slaves should seek to abolish slavery? He argued simply that they should be nice to each other but accept the institution of slavery. This is not "striving for equality".

Just so that I can confirm something, would you want to see slavery reestablished? are you not aware that the very Church which you so idolise helped to bring about slavery's end?

And most importantly, in what twisted usage of English can "mollifying the unequal arrangements by means of Christian love" (your own words, remember) actually mean making sure those unequal arrangements stay very much in place?

quote:
You are not a believer at all. Marvin claims he believes Jesus is the Son of God.
I think you'll find I am, and I do.

quote:
PULL THE OTHER ONE, IT'S GOT BELLS ON.
pulls

*DING* *DING*

Hey, he was right about something!

quote:
A believer in Jesus as the Son of God, but a disbeliever in the writings of St Paul?
Yes. Jesus was the Son of God, Paul was just one more - and in many ways deeply flawed - human being. I fail to see how belief in the divinity of the former inherently requires belief in the writings of the latter.

quote:
You are just an atheist who believes in left-wing politics, trying to borrow the moral authority of the church.
Yes, I'm so left wing. So very very left wing.

You hear that sound? That's the real left-wingers laughing their tits off at the very notion.

quote:
I hope your vicar denies you the privilege of communication.
That's nice. I hope you fall out of a sixth-storey window onto a particularly sharp and pointy fence, which irretriavably skewers you but leaves you alive long enough to spend your last agonising moments watching your insides dribble out through the gash.

Have a nice day, now [Smile]

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Hail Gallaxhar

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:

Ken, you are breaking the 9th commandment yourself.

You are bearing false witness against your neighbours. You have said that they believe things they don't.And I think you know they don't. I don't think you are as stupid or as ignorant as the posts here make you seem. (Well I hope you aren't; because if you are then anyone around you must be having a really bad time)

You have accused Bible-believing Christians of lacking faith just because they use this website. Very much like those who accused Jesus because he ate and drank with sinners.

You have repeated the lie - and you know it to be a lie I am sure - that English people are "second class citizens in their own country".

You have misrepresented Scripture. A lot of your Bible quotes seem to be pulled out of Google or some tract or other - for instance the ones about mixed marriage make it very obvious that you don't understand the material you are quoting. (Is it worth taking the time to post the truth about the Bibles's teaching on mixed marriage? Is there anyone here likely to have been taken in by your stuff who could do with a more honest account? Hmmmmm)

You've even managed to accuse a couple of rabid right-wingers of being left-wing, which is silly. I am left-wing myself. Call me a socialist all you want, I am proud of it. But not everyone here is. And I suspect that you know they aren't - you are just using words like "socialist" and "communist" as empty insults. That or you really actually genuinely don't know what a Communist or a Marxist is, which is always possible (though more likely in an American can a Brit, as I said)

I am really unsure whether you mean what you are saying here or if its just some kind of silly joke.

[Fitz]
And its clear that you have something against some people here or you would have got bored or lost your rag and flounced off by now. This place has become important to you. Someone or something on this website must mean something to you or you wouldn't be wasting so much time slagging it off. I wonder what it could be? Or do you just like the attention?
[/Fitz]

If I thought you were a BNP member (as others have speculated) then that would be a sufficient explanation. They sometimes detail people to spam Christian websites or left-wing websites or anti-racist websites and they seem to give them a crib-sheet of quotes to use (I think we had one of them here once) But you look a bit realler than that.

I'm half persuaded that you are going to rip off your mask in a little while and go "Sorry chaps! It was me all along! Didn't mean it! Only fooling!" There have been posters here who have done that in the past, though few of them sustained the bollocks for as long as you have (& they call got barred of course).

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Stejjie
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# 13941

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Philemon is not clear about the return of the slave. Where it says "have him back for ever no longer as a slave but as more than a slave, a brother", it probably means the spirit in which he is received. Although he is a slave and is being got back "for ever", as a Christian he is also a brother, and so should be treated as "more than a slave". The sense is "no longer JUST as a slave, but as more than a slave, a beloved brother".

That's a heck of a reading into the text - if Paul meant that, why didn't he say it? Surely it's much more "literal" to claim that Paul meant Philemon was to free Onesimus - even your precious KJV reads that way.

quote:
Acts 4: "from time time those who owned lands or houses sold them". So they may have made donations to the community from time to time, but they did own their own land - so, no communism.
Again, you're missing out bits that aren't convenient to your argument. Acts 4:32:
quote:
no one claimed private ownership of any possessions, but everything they owned was held in common.
Sounds like, even if they may have strictly speaking owned the possessions, in practice they didn't count them as their own possessions.

But wait. There's more. Acts 2:44-45:
quote:
All who believed were together and had all things in common; they would sell their possessions and goods and distribute the proceeds to all, as any had need.
Might not be "Communism" in the strictest definition of the term, but doesn't sound like a strong argument for full-blooded, free market captialism, does it?

BTW, I'm not a Communist (thought neither do I particularly support capitalism), just someone who reckons if you're going to make professions about what Scripture says, you should read all of it, not just the bits you want to be there.

(I know this is a complete waste of time, but it's the old post count up nicely).

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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

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Hawk

Semi-social raptor
# 14289

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Philemon is not clear about the return of the slave. Where it says "have him back for ever no longer as a slave but as more than a slave, a brother", it probably means the spirit in which he is received. Although he is a slave and is being got back "for ever", as a Christian he is also a brother, and so should be treated as "more than a slave". The sense is "no longer JUST as a slave, but as more than a slave, a beloved brother".

Either way, your interpretation of Philemon has to be reconciled with Paul's other pronouncements on slavery and the magisterium of the church. On both counts, your interpretation is therefore heretical.

Again you have noticeably failed to provide Church teaching that supports your personal interpretation. “You are guilty of twisting the scriptures to your own destruction.”

Please read the following link about the Church’s teaching regarding slavery throughout it’s history.

quote:
First, while Paul told slaves to obey their masters, he made no general defense of slavery, … He seems simply to have regarded slavery as an intractable part of the social order, an order that he may well have thought would pass away shortly (1 Cor. 7:29-31).

…while the Christian Empire didn’t immediately outlaw slavery, some Church fathers (such as Gregory of Nyssa and John Chrysostom) strongly denounced it.

…Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of peoples in the newly colonized Canary Islands. His bull Sicut Dudum (1435) rebuked European enslavers and commanded that “all and each of the faithful of each sex… that they restore to their earlier liberty all and each person of either sex who were once residents of [the] Canary Islands . . . who have been made subject to slavery.”

…A century later, Pope Paul III applied the same principle to the newly encountered inhabitants of the West and South Indies in the bull Sublimis Deus (1537). Therein he described the enslavers as allies of the devil and declared attempts to justify such slavery “null and void.”

…When Europeans began enslaving Africans as a cheap source of labor, the Holy Office of the Inquisition was asked about the morality of enslaving innocent blacks (Response of the Congregation of the Holy Office, 230, March 20, 1686). The practice was rejected, as was trading such slaves. Slaveholders, the Holy Office declared, were obliged to emancipate and even compensate blacks unjustly enslaved.

…Papal condemnation of slavery persisted throughout the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Pope Gregory XVI’s 1839 bull, In Supremo, for instance, reiterated papal opposition to enslaving “Indians, blacks, or other such people” and forbade “any ecclesiastic or lay person from presuming to defend as permissible this trade in blacks under no matter what pretext or excuse.” In 1888 and again in 1890, Pope Leo XIII forcefully condemned slavery and sought its elimination where it persisted in parts of South America and Africa.


Now, please, support your personal interpretation in view of the teaching of magisterium of the Church that you supposedly follow. Your views are incompatible with the teaching of the Church over 19 centuries.

--------------------
“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer

See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts

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Eliab
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# 9153

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Please stop arguing with my slave. By engaging with him as an equal you might give him ideas above his station.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Please stop arguing with my slave. By engaging with him as an equal you might give him ideas above his station.

Birmingham New Street?

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
if you're going to make professions about what Scripture says, you should read all of it, not just the bits you want to be there.

To be honest, I'm not to bothered that he clearly hasn't read Scripture (or, at least, he's read it but failed to actually register what it says ... which is almost the same thing). Quite a lot of us make professions about what the Bible says without having read it in full; indeed, I suspect that there's no one who has ever in the history of the Church been totally immersed in Scripture that their views on some subject could ever be described as "Scriptural" without any taint of personal views affecting what they say. Some have come closer to that than others.

What really galls me is that we have someone who a) selects particular passages as more important than others, b) continues on with expressing his views ignoring passages that contradict them and c) if he doesn't ignore those passages so twists their meaning that he says they say something completely different than any rational reader of Scripture could possibly think they mean. And, then to top it all he has the unmitigated gall to tell us off for being honest that we all face the temptation to ignore challenging passages of Scripture while he does exactly that.

There is, of course, only one word that fits as a description of Anglican2009. HYPOCRITE.

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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.

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Woodworm
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# 13798

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So that's Ken/Hawk 10 - A2009 0.

Who's this an impression of?

(closes eyes, puts hands over ears & hops from foot to foot)

"Heretick! Heretick!"

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NUH MUH! Nuh.. muh...

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Eliab
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# 9153

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
Please stop arguing with my slave. By engaging with him as an equal you might give him ideas above his station.

Birmingham New Street?
I'm not going to start playing Mornington Crescent in Hell, because the Hosts would eat me.

I'll order the slave to do it, if you like.

--------------------
"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Organ Builder
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# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by David:
Poof.

I'm impressed--A2009 is clearly not your average troll if he can elicit a response from David, whose postings these days are so rare as to be almost legendary. (I have read enough in the archives to wish they were more frequent).

I'm also impressed because my gaydar is usually pretty good and I still wasn't sure A2009 was a poof...

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Stejjie
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# 13941

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:


There is, of course, only one word that fits as a description of Anglican2009. HYPOCRITE.

TBH, think that's what I was trying to get at: not just that he doesn't seem to have read Scripture fully, but does so while pretending he has and has a full understanding of it. That he could be condemned by so many of the accusations he hurls at everyone who else who dares to disagree with him, while providing very little justification for his views.

Seems a good choice of word to describe him...

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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

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Geneviève

Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
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Well, it seems that Anglicanwhatevernumber has proved, without a shred of doubt--in case anyone was in doubt [Snigger] --that the Anglican Communion can produce proof-texters, hypocrites, and generally unpleasant folk right up there with the best our fellow denominations have to offer. We may be small but we (as a generalization represented by the aforesaid Anglicanwhatevernumber) can produce a mighty stink.

What a glorious day!

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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)

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Erroneous Monk
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quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
I'm not going to start playing Mornington Crescent in Hell, because the Hosts would eat me.

I'll order the slave to do it, if you like.

Could you also order him to start a "Be my slave" thread in Heaven so that those of us with vacancies can recruit?

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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MiceElf

Not your average mouse
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Maybe This Might help someone. Appologies if you have already seen it.

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What do we want.... Cure for Obesity
When do we want it.... After Dessert.

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art dunce
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quote:
Could you also order him to start a "Be my slave" thread in Heaven so that those of us with vacancies can recruit?

I believe there's already a private board devoted to this subject.

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Ego is not your amigo.

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Anglican2009
Bigot
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Socialism is just the politics of resentment and hate, and now, also a religion of resentment and hate. Resenting those in authority in society is not Christian love at all. Alicia, you have succumbed to the blandishments of the Tempter.

Marvin: whether slavery is restored or not is a worldly matter, but Jesus said his kingdom was no part of this world. It has been suggested that slavery is only suitable for an agricultural economy and so would not work in the modern world. Actually, Marvin you indicated in your post that you don't believe in the Bible, which contains Paul's "deeply flawed" writings. Why believe Jesus is the SoG, but oppose the writings of his 1st century followers who the church has always believed were inspired by God. You are contradicting the view of every single Early Church Father than the 19 centuries of the church.

Ken, you are bearing false witness. How dare you say that English people are not 2nd class citizens in Britannia today? So-called hate crime legislation has put in place harsher penalties for crimes committed against the beloved ethnic minorities, so we are 2nd class, aren't we? If you kill me, my family will not be treated like Doreen Lawrence and showered with cash in the same way.

Stejjie - your interpretation of Philemon is only correct once reconciled with Paul's other statements and the magisterium of the church. On that basis, it would be incorrect to say that Paul asked for a runaway slave to be freed just because he converted to Christianity (that would give rice Christians a bad name!)

I think you may be right that things were held in common in the 1st century by the few Christians there were. But how they organized themselves is a separate question from taking on the state and arguing for abolition of slavery and inequality. Also how Christians internally organize themselves will vary over the centuries with wider economic circumstances. For a start the larger the community got, the less sustainable "communism" would be, as Russia showed. Large numbers of hangers-on would join just to sponge.

The magisterium of the church on slavery has varied.

In 340 the Synod of Gangra condemned sectarians preaching the abolition of slavery. The canon of the Synod of Gangra were later determined by the Council of Chalcedon to be "ecumenical", ie applied to the whole church.

St Augustine of Hippo supported slavery in The City of God. There is also some evidence that runaway slaves were denied communion by the Roman Church in the early centuries (mentioned in a book called Infallibility on Trial by Luis Bermejo). St John Chrysostom also argued slaves had a religious duty to obey their masters.

Thomas Aquinas believed slavery was justifiable.

In the 13th Century Pope Gregory IX introduced support for slavery and the slave trade in Canon Law.

In the 14th Century, Pope Gregory XI ordered the enslavement of the Florentines, who he had excommunicated.

In the 15th Century, Pope Nicholas V in his encyclicals Dum Diversas and Romanus Pontifex ordered that nonbelievers were subject to hereditary enslavement.

In 1488 Pope Innocent III was given 100 slaves and he distributed them among his cardinals.

The Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts opened a plantation in Barbados, with hundreds of slaves, branded in the chest with the word "society".

Sicut Dudum, in 1435 when Pope Eugene IV condemned slavery referred to enslavement of other Christians

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
The magisterium of the church on slavery has varied.

Perhaps you'd like to explain how an infallible magisterium can vary.

Perhaps you'd also like to explain why you believe the Holy Spirit abandoned His church in the twentieth century, and allowed her to stray into Error.

Both of these, as they stand, are liberal propositions, insofar as they suggest the Church is fallible.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
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Anglican2009, what do you hope to accomplish by this conversation?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Anglican2009
Bigot
# 15061

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On the variance: well, issues on which the teaching has chopped and changed would be areas where no Christian can insist on any particular point. But: I felt that the Ship o' Twits would be unable to show that Biblical exegesis of Philemon in the period AD300 to AD1800 would specifically show the church has always taught that Paul commanded Philemon to manumit Onesimus. It turns out that the church was mainly in favour of slavery over the 19 centuries as a whole.

A way of reconciling the various views would be in line with the statement of the heretical Archbishop who complained that when he fed the poor he was praised as a Christian, but when he asked why there were poor people, he was called a commie. Actually, a Christian should try to help people, including feeding the poor, but once he crosses the line of trying to organize society around egalitarian principles then that is wrong. Society will always, can only, be unequal, and belief in the perfectibility of human society was I believe condemned in the Syllabus of Errors.

You could argue Christians should be nice to their slaves, and should consider freeing them, and you would be a Christian in good standing. Once you argue for the abolition of slavery, you cross the line into worldly politics, and you are no longer a Christian in good standing.

I personally would purchase a slave if one were available for sale. I have skirting boards etc that need cleaning, and so a bit of help would come in handy. But I would be a kind slave-owner. I would only whip my slaves once a week ;-)

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Lord Pontivillian
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Anglican2009

Has Eliab given you permission to speak, since you are now his property?

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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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I am so enjoying this thread! We haven't had this entertaining a troll in ages!

But Anglican2009, I'm puzzled. have you even looked around the rest of the ship? There's a whole board for the chapter and worse thing, you know. And look at the rest of the boards as well.

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

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Stejjie
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# 13941

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:

You could argue Christians should be nice to their slaves, and should consider freeing them, and you would be a Christian in good standing. Once you argue for the abolition of slavery, you cross the line into worldly politics, and you are no longer a Christian in good standing.

[Ultra confused] [Eek!]

Blimey, and we thought Wilberforce et al were doing a good, Christian thing. Turns out he was actually stopping himself from being "a Christian in good standing".

Let me get this straight: you actually think authentic, "good" Christianity not only accepts that some people will be treated as more equal than others, but it's a key part of Christian theology?

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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

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Stejjie
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# 13941

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
It turns out that the church was mainly in favour of slavery over the 19 centuries as a whole.


Where have you in any way shown this? All your examples, such as they are, stop around the 15-16 century.

But what's 500 years between friends (or masters and slaves)?

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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
Once you argue for the abolition of slavery, you cross the line into worldly politics, and you are no longer a Christian in good standing.

[Ultra confused] [Ultra confused] [Ultra confused]

Because Papal Bulls never comment on worldly politics?

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Zach82
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quote:
I personally would purchase a slave if one were available for sale. I have skirting boards etc that need cleaning, and so a bit of help would come in handy. But I would be a kind slave-owner. I would only whip my slaves once a week
This has to be the least funny, most gruesome attempt at humor ever on the Ship of Fools.

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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Myrrh doing a Faustian dog, wonders me?

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

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Quite possibly Zach, but this had me laughing out loud!
quote:
Marvin claims he believes Jesus is the Son of God. PULL THE OTHER ONE, IT'S GOT BELLS ON. A believer in Jesus as the Son of God, but a disbeliever in the writings of St Paul? You are just an atheist who believes in left-wing politics.
There are all sorts of things I could call Marvin (and may have used some of them on these very boards in times gone by) but an ATHEIST? ROFLMAO!

(And I think that's the first time I have needed that particular abbreviation. It may be American, but it's the only thing that does justice to my feelings.)

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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Eliab, I don't envy you your new possession. [Disappointed] Reminds me of an extremely noisy parrot we had once. You might want to see if the vet has any suggestions.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Hiro's Leap

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quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
but an ATHEIST? ROFLMAO!

A left-wing atheist, no less.
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Pooks
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# 11425

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Anglican2009, what do you hope to accomplish by this conversation?

Shipmate status from one thread?

The other alternative might be that he/she wanted to see what shit hit a ceiling fan looks like. I think he got his way. [Razz]

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
A believer in Jesus as the Son of God, but a disbeliever in the writings of St Paul?

I'm a believer in the writings of Paul. I find
Gal. 5.12 particularly applicable. Please apply it to yourself.

[ 08. September 2009, 21:45: Message edited by: Zappa ]

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Figbash

The Doubtful Guest
# 9048

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:
was I believe condemned in the Syllabus of Errors.

Which, as it was issued by a late nineteenth century Pope, is just so much horse-shit as far as Anglicans are concerned. Get it into your head: the Pope has no authority over the Anglican Communion.
quote:

You could argue Christians should be nice to their slaves, and should consider freeing them, and you would be a Christian in good standing. Once you argue for the abolition of slavery, you cross the line into worldly politics, and you are no longer a Christian in good standing.

But you yourself are espousing political opinions every time you say how society ought to be run. Or is it somehow different if it's hate-filled bilge somewhat to the right of the BNP?
quote:

I personally would purchase a slave if one were available for sale. I have skirting boards etc that need cleaning, and so a bit of help would come in handy. But I would be a kind slave-owner. I would only whip my slaves once a week ;-)

[Paranoid] Is that meant to be humour? 'Cos [Projectile]
Posts: 1209 | From: Gashlycrumb | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Hawk

Semi-social raptor
# 14289

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:

You could argue Christians should be nice to their slaves, and should consider freeing them, and you would be a Christian in good standing. Once you argue for the abolition of slavery, you cross the line into worldly politics, and you are no longer a Christian in good standing.

Interesting. So you're denouncing Pope Paul III (and many other popes)? In 1537 he issued a Bull, entitled Sublimis Deus, to the universal Church:
quote:
(Satan) has stirred up some of his allies who, desiring to satisfy their own avarice, are presuming to assert far and wide that the Indians...be reduced to our service like brute animals, under the pretext that they are lacking the Catholic faith. And they reduce them to slavery, treating them with afflictions they would scarcely use with brute animals... by our Apostolic Authority decree and declare by these present letters that the same Indians and all other peoples - even though they are outside the faith - ...should not be deprived of their liberty... Rather they are to be able to use and enjoy this liberty and this ownership of property freely and licitly, and are not to be reduced to slavery...
And, obviously, you're arguing that your personal opinion counts for more than a papal bull. I thought you disagreed with that.

Read this link for a summary of the Catholic position on slavery. Which contains the following quote:

quote:
in 1462, Pius II declared slavery to be "a great crime" (magnum scelus); that, in 1537, Paul III forbade the enslavement of the Indians; that Urban VIII forbade it in 1639, and Benedict XIV in 1741; that Pius VII demanded of the Congress of Vienna, in 1815, the suppression of the slave trade and Gregory XVI condemned it in 1839; that, in the Bull of Canonization of the Jesuit Peter Claver, one of the most illustrious adversaries of slavery, Pius IX branded the "supreme villainy" (summum nefas) of the slave traders. Everyone knows of the beautiful letter which Leo XIII, in 1888, addressed to the Brazilian bishops, exhorting them to banish from their country the remnants of slavery


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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer

See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts

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El Greco
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# 9313

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quote:
Originally posted by Figbash:
Get it into your head: the Pope has no authority over the Anglican Communion.

Nobody seems to have any authority over the Anglican communion. Someone wants to believe A is OK? He can believe it. Another wants to believe A is not OK? He, too, can believe it. Someone wants to take B as authoritative? He can do that. Another wants to get rid of B's authority? That's fine as well.

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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.

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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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Oops, we weren't talking about you for a few posts, Andrew. Sorry. [Roll Eyes]

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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El Greco
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You sure like turning your focus from ideas to people... This thread is a whole joke. So many people whining about Anglican2009, while turning a blind eye to the evidence he gives that the Christian Church has been a very dark institution, and that this darkness comes from its holy books.

It's easier to say "we are better than that" and "Anglican2009 is an ass" rather than see Christianity for what it has been through most of its history.

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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican2009:

Ken, you are bearing false witness. How dare you say that English people are not 2nd class citizens in Britannia today? So-called hate crime legislation has put in place harsher penalties for crimes committed against the beloved ethnic minorities, so we are 2nd class, aren't we? If you kill me, my family will not be treated like Doreen Lawrence and showered with cash in the same way.

So you are a racist as well as a liar.

And no, there are not harsher penalties in English law for killing a black man than a white man. Nor is the criminal compensation system different for black or white. If they were your cribsheet would quote the actual legislation, not just fudge it with a vague waffle like "so-called hate crime legislation".

Your religion of resentment and hate is not the teaching of the Bible. We are not Jews and not paert of the Old Covenant but, as you said, it gives us a clue. And it was very clear that foreigners and immigrants were to be treated as equals. Your desire to exclude and demean and reject is certainly unchristian.

[ 08. September 2009, 23:35: Message edited by: ken ]

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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quote:
You sure like turning your focus from ideas to people... This thread is a whole joke. So many people whining about Anglican2009, while turning a blind eye to the evidence he gives that the Christian Church has been a very dark institution, and that this darkness comes from its holy books.
At least we can know that, should such a thing ever happen, we'll have you around to pipe in with some pointless comment accusing everyone of being ignorant apostates for not accepting your appointed version of Christianity which you reject anyway.

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Just out of interest Anglican2009, how do you define English, when you are talking about english people and their rights ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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