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Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Barnabas62 .... I am not suggesting that MY wrath is PROJECTED onto God ... far from it. I am saying that the unregenerate part of me experiences God's love AS wrath. When that unregenerate part of me gets transformed what was formerly experienced as wrath by demonic deception is now revealed in its true nature as the bliss of God's love.

Every time God's loves me when I sin, if I do not repent, I experience that sweetest love as searing spiritual pain. It is a foretaste of that hell that I will taste for all eternity unless I repent before I die.

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Originally posted by GreyFace:
I don't understand why Christ's suffering assumes and heals anything in the Orthodox view.

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"A God without wrath, brings people without sin, into a kingdom without judgment, through a Christ without a cross.

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Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
St John Chrysostom exhorts the reader - in the light of his theology of the cross - in the following way Father Gregory.

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Reflecting then on these things, let us fear these words more than hell; let us reverence the things [they express] more than the kingdom, and let us not deem it grievous to be punished, but to sin. For were He not to punish us, we ought to take vengeance on ourselves, who have been so ungrateful towards our Benefactor.

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How do you answer him?

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If and when any aspect of the Cosmos falls out of its natural state by volition or any other cause there is a severance in the Creator-creature relation. This degrades the creature's experience of God into evil and death. The subjective experience of God under those conditions is wrath but there can be no equivalence (moral or ontological) between the plenitude of love which is invariant and divine and wrath which is fallen contingent and emptying.

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Originally posted by mdijon:
I'm not sure I see a distinction at all. If what we perceive as wrath is in fact God's love... then to all intents and purposes it is wrath. To us, at any rate.

If I go to hell for eternity it matters not to me whether God calls it love and I call it wrath - the correct label is my least concern.

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Originally posted by ken:
I think the point is that if you go to Hell you were really there already.

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This comes after the verse you quoted:

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Now he that hath an object of affection, hath often even slain himself, when unsuccessful in his love; and though successful, if he hath been guilty of a fault towards her, counts it not fit that he should even live; and shall not we, when we outrage One so loving and gentle, cast ourselves into the fire of hell? Shall I say something strange, and marvelous, and to many perhaps incredible?

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The Saint speaks about us punishing ourselves out of love for God. And what this punishment means, only those who love much and wronged the beloved can appreciate.

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And if this last when angered doth not punish, he hath tortured his lover more; but if he exacts satisfaction, he hath comforted him rather.

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Sin is the punishment of itself.

These things then bearing in mind, let us above all things be afraid of sin; for this is punishment, this is hell, this is ten thousand ills. And let us not only be afraid of, but also flee from it, and strive to please God continually; for this is the kingdom, this is life, this is ten thousand goods.

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18 Woe to you who long
for the day of the LORD!
Why do you long for the day of the LORD ?
That day will be darkness, not light.

19 It will be as though a man fled from a lion
only to meet a bear,
as though he entered his house
and rested his hand on the wall
only to have a snake bite him.

20 Will not the day of the LORD be darkness, not light—
pitch-dark, without a ray of brightness?

21 "I hate, I despise your religious feasts;
I cannot stand your assemblies.

22 Even though you bring me burnt offerings and grain offerings,
I will not accept them.
Though you bring choice fellowship offerings,
I will have no regard for them.

23 Away with the noise of your songs!
I will not listen to the music of your harps.

24 But let justice roll on like a river,
righteousness like a never-failing stream!

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12 Then Amaziah said to Amos, "Get out, you seer! Go back to the land of Judah. Earn your bread there and do your prophesying there. 13 Don't prophesy anymore at Bethel, because this is the king's sanctuary and the temple of the kingdom."

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Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
In other words God's antipathy towards sin is eternally located in himself because he was in Christ reconciling himself to the world.

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Originally posted by Freddy:

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Originally posted by ken:
I think the point is that if you go to Hell you were really there already.

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That's exactly the point. Hell is misery, not a place. God's love is real, but if a person is in a state of torment, then it appears like wrath.

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Originally posted by Johnny S:
If Hell is misery then why does so much of the NT promise 'misery' and suffering as part of the faithful Christian life and also promise judgment to those who are not experiencing misery (e.g. the Rich Fool in Luke 12)?

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Luke 6:21 Blessed are you who weep now,
For you shall laugh...
25 Woe to you who laugh now,
For you shall mourn and weep.

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John 16:20 Most assuredly, I say to you that you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice; and you will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will be turned into joy. 21 A woman, when she is in labor, has sorrow because her hour has come; but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the anguish, for joy that a human being has been born into the world. 22 Therefore you now have sorrow; but I will see you again and your heart will rejoice, and your joy no one will take from you.

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:

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Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
In other words God's antipathy towards sin is eternally located in himself because he was in Christ reconciling himself to the world.

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I agree the rest of your post, Numpty, but the italicised bit is the wrong way round. (Which may bring suggestions of Freudian error!)

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You're right! And yes it was a Freudian error rather than theological dishonesty. However, the point still stands that reconciliation was necessary and in some way this reconciliation rests - at least in part - on Christ having been made sin. That is, Christ having been made the punishment, if sin is in fact the punishment rather than the state that precipitates punishment. My view is that sin is judgement inasmuch as God in his passive wrath has given us up to a depraved mind. The practical outworking of sin (i.e that to which God has given us up) is therefore something that requires punishment, and that punishment is death. The fact that sin is possible the ongoing the result of God's passive wrath; that that sin is punishable by death either in the cross - in which case there is nor more fear of punishment - or the hell of fire, in which case the unregenerate will bear the punishment themselves in hell.

[ 05. March 2008, 09:11: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]

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Originally posted by mdijon:
If as a result of being unregenerate I perceive love as wrath and am in hell already doesn't change things.

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Originally posted by Freddy:
Barnabas, I agree with you. I'm not sure how your point is different than what I said.

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Originally posted by mdijon:
For instance, in the story of the prodigal son I can't see how the Father's actions could possibly be interpreted as wrath. I can't think of another parable in which God's actions (either sending people to hell or rewarding them or reconciling to them) might be subject to two interpretations - wrath or love.

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Matthew 8:29 There met Jesus two demon-possessed men, coming out of the tombs, exceedingly fierce, so that no one could pass that way. And suddenly they cried out, saying, “What have we to do with You, Jesus, You Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?”

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Revelation 3:19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent.

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Malachi 3:1 Behold, He is coming,”
Says the LORD of hosts.
2 “ But who can endure the day of His coming?
And who can stand when He appears?
For He is like a refiner’s fire
And like launderers’ soap.
3 He will sit as a refiner and a purifier of silver;
He will purify the sons of Levi,
And purge them as gold and silver,
That they may offer to the LORD
An offering in righteousness.
4 “ Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem
Will be pleasant to the LORD."

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Malachi 4:1 “For behold, the day is coming,
Burning like an oven,
And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble.
And the day which is coming shall burn them up,”
Says the LORD of hosts,
“ That will leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But to you who fear My name
The Sun of Righteousness shall arise
With healing in His wings."

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Part of the problem may be the reflexive nature of "is"! "Hell is misery" is exactly equivalent to "misery is Hell". But I don't think you meant that at all - it isn't like you. That is what I was seeking to clarify.

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Originally posted by mdijon:
What we're talking about is the same acts and attidues being interpreted differently. And that's what I find so difficult to imagine (which isn't to say it doesn't happen) and it might help me to trace the evolution of the idea.

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Originally posted by mdijon:


What we're talking about is the same acts and attidues being interpreted differently. And that's what I find so difficult to imagine (which isn't to say it doesn't happen) and it might help me to trace the evolution of the idea.

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Originally posted by Freddy:
In the Scriptural context, the context of the history of an ancient people, it would make no sense for love to be harmful. Instead they perceived it, and described it, as anger.

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Originally posted by Freddy:

Scripture is unambiguous as to whether God is acting in a way that helps or harms people, regardless of whether they are good or bad. He helps good people, and He hinders bad ones. In the Scriptural context, the context of the history of an ancient people, it would make no sense for love to be harmful. Instead they perceived it, and described it, as anger.

The only trouble is that this point of view is not actually consistent with the larger concept of God as He is presented throughout Scripture, and especially by Jesus. Ancient people, children, and uneducated people, are untroubled by these kinds of inconsistencies. But we are. At least, I hope we are.

The evolution of the idea, as I see it, traces back to the need to resolve these inconsistencies. The Orthodox, it seems, got there first.

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Originally posted by mdijon:
In my secular context, as a modern person, it still makes no sense for love to be harmful.

That's my trouble with the idea. If I perceive it as anger, I'm afraid that I'm stuck with describing it as anger unless I can rationalize my understanding of it. Discipline I can do that for - that's clear - and that's my understanding of God's anger. But, as we keep saying, that's not what's being suggested in these last 2 pages.

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John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.

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Originally posted by mdijon:
Quite. I'm still with the ancients and uneducated peoples. With milk and cookies.

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Well, you're clearly with me, I'm getting ancient, and I'm certainly theologically uneducated! Time for my afternoon cuppa and chocolate chip .....

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Originally posted by Freddy:

I think the real issue is that God does not act visibly in the world. What we find in Scripture are descriptions of God's actions seen through a heavily anthropomorphized lens. It is simply impossible that Moses and Abraham could have actually argued or bargained with God Himself and persuaded Him to change His mind. The God of Scripture is seen, especially in the Old Testament, as simply a very powerful Man who has all kinds of human characteristics. This can't be the reality.

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Because of this, Scripture is unambiguous as to whether God is acting in a way that helps or harms people, regardless of whether they are good or bad. He helps good people, and He hinders bad ones. In the Scriptural context, the context of the history of an ancient people, it would make no sense for love to be harmful. Instead they perceived it, and described it, as anger.

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Originally posted by mdijon:
I'm sorry to sound like a broken record (again)

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Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Like all good Calvinists I'm completely (lactose) intolerant.

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Originally posted by andreas1984

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Originally posted by Johnny S:
Numpty has clearly shown how John Chrysostom held to a view of God's wrath.

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Numpty did nothing of the sort. He might have thought he did, but he actually didn't. You are doing to the fathers what you do to the bible, and you end up understanding none of them.

Like I said, Saint John Chrysostom was guiding others, by the hand, towards God. And this means that he was giving road signs, towards God, not God himself. You are thinking that St. John Chrysostom, like Apostle Paul, did something different, that what he said is actually true in absolute terms about God himself. Ask yourself the question, did Saint John speak to beginners or to perfects? Did Saint Paul write to beginners or to perfects in the faith? I am giving you spiritual milk, comes to mind. Over and over again you are treating with milk as if it was solid food. It's not.

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11We have much to say about this, but it is hard to explain because you are slow to learn. 12In fact, though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you the elementary truths of God's word all over again. You need milk, not solid food! 13Anyone who lives on milk, being still an infant, is not acquainted with the teaching about righteousness. 14But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

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By this spiritual milk interpretation, St John is teaching "the elementary truths of God's word". That is spiritual milk. Elementary truth. Such as God's wrath against sin is intrinsic to His nature.
I'll drink to that.

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Jolly Jape posted:So punishment is only really meaningful if we talk about sentient beings being punished.

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Hence we cannot talk, as some PSAers do, of our sin being punished in Christ.

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We could say that our sin is being judged in Christ, or that Christ is the locus of sin's destruction, but if we talk about sin being dealt with by punishment, then we have to say that Christ is punished for our sins, and that formula is usually rejected as a simplistic misunderstanding of "true" PSA.

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Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

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Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
I'd take that further by saying that we ourselves are punished in Christ. Christ is the locus of sin's destruction because Christ is the locus of sinful people. We must take our sin into Christ and die with him as per Romans 6.6:

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Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Hmmn, not really sure it is all that simple, though, Barnabas. Taken as a literal statement, and properly understood, I would not demur at the above. Truely, God is "agin" sin! Not only agin it, but wrathful towards it, that is, willing to act in such a way as to end it, which is the way in which I understand wrath to be defined, not only anger, but determination to act on that anger. I suspect, in those terms, our Orthodox brethren would be happy enough with the concept, though they would probably find the way in which the concept is expressed deeply unsatisfactory.

However, it is, I suspect, the percieved identity between "bringing sin to an end" and "punishment" which is deeply problematic, probably for them, certainly for me.

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:
So God's love and God's wrath are, according to this view, essentially the same "energy"? (Is that the right word?)

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Andreas said:[b]I explained how St. John's passage on punishment refers to the punishment that is sin itself and not some kind of punishment God is supposed to give... So, the link, the connection between God's wrath and God's punishing us (or Christ) is broken... by the very verses you pointed to from St. John!

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Originally posted by andreas1984

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:
So God's love and God's wrath are, according to this view, essentially the same "energy"? (Is that the right word?)

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I don't think so. In the Second Coming, there will be a restoration of all... And God's love will be shown to all... But not all will partake in it... So, the wrath and the sorrow and the fire and the worm and whatever, does not have to do with God Himself, but with some people not partaking in God but remaining in themselves...

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And speak not to me of those who have committed small sins, but suppose the case of one who is filled full of all wickedness, and let him practice everything which excludes him from the kingdom, and let us suppose that this man is not one of those who were unbelievers from the beginning, but formerly belonged to the believers, and such as were well pleasing to God, but afterwards has become a fornicator, adulterer, effeminate, a thief, a drunkard, a sodomite, a reviler, and everything else of this kind; I will not approve even of this man despairing of himself, although he may have gone on to extreme old age in the practice of this great and unspeakable wickedness.

For if the wrath of God were a passion, one might well despair as being unable to quench the flame which he had kindled by so many evil doings; but since the Divine nature is passionless, even if He punishes, even if He takes vengeance, he does this not with wrath, but with tender care, and much loving-kindness; wherefore it behoves us to be of much good courage, and to trust in the power of repentance.

For even those who have sinned against Him He is not wont to visit with punishment for His own sake; for no harm can traverse that divine nature; but He acts with a view to our advantage, and to prevent our perverseness becoming worse by our making a practice of despising and neglecting Him. For even as one who places himself outside the light inflicts no loss on the light, but the greatest upon himself being shut up in darkness; even so he who has become accustomed to despise that almighty power, does no injury to the power, but inflicts the greatest possible injury upon himself.

And for this reason God threatens us with punishments, and often inflicts them, not as avenging Himself, but by way of attracting us to Himself. For a physician also is not distressed or vexed at the insults of those who are out of their minds, but yet does and contrives everything for the purpose of stopping those who do such unseemly acts, not looking to his own interests but to their profit; and if they manifest some small degree of self-control and sobriety he rejoices and is glad, and applies his remedies much more earnestly, not as revenging himself upon them for their former conduct, but as wishing to increase their advantage, and to bring them back to a purely sound state of health.

Even so God when we fall into the very extremity of madness, says and does everything, not by way of avenging Himself on account of our former deeds; but because He wishes to release us from our disorder; and by means of right reason it is quite possible to be convinced of this.

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And this, you should also know [the Orthodox says to the Manichean] that God does not punish anybody in the world to be, but each makes himself recipient of God. And the participation of God is joy, but the non-participation is hell. And in this world, God does not bring upon men temptations to punish them, but to teach them and heal them of their wickedness, so that we get to know him, and return and receive his holiness, "because the teaching of the Lord opens my eyes".

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For if the wrath of God were a passion, one might well despair as being unable to quench the flame which he had kindled by so many evil doings; but since the Divine nature is passionless, even if He punishes, even if He takes vengeance, he does this not with wrath, but with tender care, and much loving-kindness; wherefore it behoves us to be of much good courage, and to trust in the power of repentance.

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And this, you should also know, the Orthodox says to the Manichean, that God does not punish anybody in the world to be, but each makes himself recipient of God. And the participation of God is joy, but the non-participation is hell. And in this world, God does not bring upon men temptations to punish them, but to teach them and heal them of their wickedness, so that we get to know him, and return and receive his holiness, "because the teaching of the Lord opens my eyes".

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:
My summary and precis of this paragraph is that God is just and acts justly.

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Do not call God just, for His justice is not manifest in the things concerning you. And if David calls Him just and upright, His Son revealed to us that He is good and kind. 'He is good,' He says, 'to the evil and to the impious'. How can you call God just when you come across the Scriptural passage on the wage given to the workers? 'Friend, I do thee no wrong: I will give unto this last even as unto thee. Is thine eye evil because I am good?'. How can a man call God just when he comes across the passage on the prodigal son who wasted his wealth with riotous living, how for the compunction alone which he showed, the father ran and fell upon his neck and gave him authority over all his wealth? None other but His very Son said these things concerning Him, lest we doubt it; and thus He bare witness concerning Him. Where, then, is God's justice, for whilst we are sinners Christ died for us! But if here He is merciful, we may believe that He will not change.

Far be it that we should ever think such an iniquity that God could become unmerciful! For the property of Divinity does not change as do mortals. God does not acquire something which He does not have, nor lose what He has, nor supplement what He does have, as do created beings. But what God has from the beginning, He will have and has until the [unending] end, as the blest Cyril wrote in his commentary on Genesis.

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