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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Christus Victor
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
If His desire is that all should experience that transformation, then anything less than that would be an imperfect vindication.
Only if you do not accept human free will at all.
I'm from a Reformed background so I think that complete freewill is an illusion, but I fully accept that some sense of freewill and volition is essential to our humanity.
I don't see how your comment above makes sense unless God completely over-rules our freewill in a way that not even 5 point Calvinists would consider.
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Jolly Jape
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# 3296
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
If it is God's forgiveness and humility being vindicated (ie, that these are the characteristics wherein lie the most forceful manifestations of God's power, and that in sharing these values lies the way to Godly living), then a penal element would not be present.
![[Confused]](confused.gif) But what about those who refuse to accept his forgiveness and humility?
Those who continue to live in pride and bitterness are constantly demonstrating that Jesus was absolutely wrong - the first will always be first.
Sorry, cross posted with you, John.
I suppose the Orthodox answer would be that in the new creation, the first cannot be first, and so they would continue to live in frustration, the River of Fire argument. For myself, I believe that God is able to square the circle of freewill vs determinism, that when the fallen nature is consumed by death, the resurrected nature will be able to see and apprehend what each one has longed for without knowing it, and respond gladly to the call of "welcome home". It would be a free choice, but that free choice would be to choose life. But I guess I'm transgressing my own embargo on the "U" word! ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
[ 19. March 2008, 11:22: Message edited by: Jolly Jape ]
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Then they experience God as pain and suffering.
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) And how is that not punishment?
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
Lord have mercy on us all ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
Christ have mercy.
[ 19. March 2008, 11:23: Message edited by: Johnny S ]
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
Sorry, lots of X-posting here.
Thanks JJ. I see how you square the circle ... even if it looks like U (shush! 'You know what') to me too!?
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Pokrov
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# 11515
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
And how is that not punishment?
It is. But of the self-inflicted kind, which is what makes it so awful.
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
It is. But of the self-inflicted kind, which is what makes it so awful.
I was with you, but this is where you lose me. It comes across like something out Civil Service speak. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
How is, "Repent and experience my forgiveness or you will experience pain and suffering" not like me saying to my children, "repent and experience my forgiveness or you will experience pain and suffering"? (of sorts ... I'm not that harsh with my kids ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) )
I just can't see how you make it self-harming.
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El Greco
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# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Perhaps you can see why he (and I) do see a paradox? Maybe that will have to do for now?
I can see why you see a paradox.
However, I don't see him seeing any paradox. After all, in lecture 2 he says that there is no separation between Christ and God the Father even when Christ says "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me". I think that he would have said so at that point if there was a paradox for him.
quote:
On justice. Thank you for your digging re St Nicolas.
No problem. What do you think about his definition of God's justice? If there is any virtue or justice in God, he says, this is it, to give to everybody abundantly the goods that are in him, and the communion of blessedness."
Isn't this very different than what you thought the quote from the Orthodox Way meant? Isn't this a different meaning of justice than what you were proposing? Which view does Saint Kabasilas seem to hold, the one I expressed in this thread concerning God's justice, or the one you had? I think it's worth clarifying what that Saint was saying.
quote:
"Woe to you teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You give a tenth of your spices - mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law - justice, mercy and faith. You should have practised the latter without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!"
I don't see that as "condemn those that are wicked, punish those that transgress" but as "give the widows their justice back, give the orphans their justice back" and so on.
We are to be just, in the sense that a) we are not to harm others to benefit ourselves and b) in the sense that we are to stand for other people's justice and give it back to them. Do justice has a very positive meaning, it does not have to do with condemnation and punishment.
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Pokrov
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Posted
I think it's more like a Father saying to an alcoholic son, 'change your way of life or else this'll be the death of you'. The 'threat' is merely in the highlighting of consequences (which is how I suggested all 'law' functions). However I know enough about alcoholism both personally and professionally to also know that the person afflicted also requires almost a miraculous ontological change in nature to overcome this demon.
So this is Christ saying, 'you need to change your life, but you can only do this with the new life which I offer to you, do you believe?'.
Interestingly it was those most trapped by their own self-abusive behaviors (drunkards, thieves, prostitutes etc...) who responded.
These thoughts are coming to me as we discuss this topic, but I think you're right - we both believe in punishment, but my perspective leads me to see it as something we do to ourselves, whereas the PSA 'mindset' sees it as something God does to 'us'.
We have the same dots on the page but link them up differently.
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
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El Greco
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# 9313
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Posted
To put it differently, On That Day God will resurrect all and impart incorruptibility to all. What more is there for God to do? Nothing. But because some of us are self-centered, we will not let ourselves partake in God, and therefore, we will continue to be self-centered even then. Which state of being is described by the holy men as punishment.
Don't forget that we don't really know how the self centered will perceive their punishment. Mostly, it's from the holy men's perspective. And the holy men say that already some foretaste hell and some foretaste heaven. Already the holy men and women see people and weep over them for they live in darkness and wretchedness now.
What's possible for God to do to save all men, he will do. See why there is no punishment, no condemnation, no human justice in that?
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Perhaps you can see why he (and I) do see a paradox? Maybe that will have to do for now?
I can see why you see a paradox.
However, I don't see him seeing any paradox. After all, in lecture 2 he says that there is no separation between Christ and God the Father even when Christ says "my God, my God, why have you forsaken me". I think that he would have said so at that point if there was a paradox for him.
I think that's a misread, andreas. If you look at my post here, he said both things in lecture 1 as well. "Now we may ask ourselves how could this be. We do not understand." He sees the paradox all right. I do not think he removes it by reiterating the union of Christ and the Father in lecture 2. That is not the full picture. Unless you wish to argue that he came to a different understanding between lecture 1 and lecture 2. Which seems unlikely.
I'm off out now and I'll comment more about the "justice means mercy" view of St Nicolas when I get back. A busy, buzzy morning.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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El Greco
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Posted
We don't know does not mean it's a paradox!
Anyway, I don't know what he means by that.
That said, I'd like to make a general comment:
I disagree with both the conservatives and the liberals in Western Christianity. I see the conservatives speaking of God's justice and our just punishment and the liberals reacting to that saying that God will, more or less, save us all eventually.
I think that both takes are mistaken and that they are based on a common ground. The common ground being that our salvation and our damnation depends on God alone. That God chooses to save or to damn, and that's a Big Mistake if you ask me.
The conservatives have a distorted image of God. The liberals have a distorted image of salvation.
While I would feel more comfortable among liberals, I don't think I would find salvation with either the liberals or the conservatives. Now, I'm not being combative here, I'm reflecting on myself. I see myself in Richard's terms. I feel the necessity of an ontological change, and I cannot find that in either conservatism or liberalism.
God does not punish, God does not condemn. Our God Is a Great God, Who Is Like Him? If he was to count inequities, who would be saved? And if he was to count inequities only for some but not for others, how is that not schizoid?
And if everybody is to be saved, how is that not superficial, how is that not overlooking the seriousness of human freedom, how is that not trivializing our lives here? This view is deeply problematic, and all the problems have been shown in the Origenistic controversies.
So, neither the one, nor the other. And a big no to the underlying basis for both these options.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
We don't know does not mean it's a paradox!
Anyway, I don't know what he means by that.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) One of these years you might even admit I have a point!
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
quote:
On justice. Thank you for your digging re St Nicolas.
No problem. What do you think about his definition of God's justice? If there is any virtue or justice in God, he says, this is it, to give to everybody abundantly the goods that are in him, and the communion of blessedness."
Isn't this very different than what you thought the quote from the Orthodox Way meant? Isn't this a different meaning of justice than what you were proposing? Which view does Saint Kabasilas seem to hold, the one I expressed in this thread concerning God's justice, or the one you had? I think it's worth clarifying what that Saint was saying.
You have a point! Given that your quotes are representative of his total view, St Nicolas's view on justice is different to that one would get from reading the quotation in "The Orthodox Way".
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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El Greco
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# 9313
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Posted
Thank you ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Saint Nikolas Kabasilas is a very important Saint to me. His work is simply amazing, and in it I can see authentic Orthodoxy. He is part of a Byzantine Renaissance that unfortunately was disrupted by the fall of the Kingdom. I recommend highly his books. Much greatness is found in them. And they are short. I think there are English translations available for Life in Christ, and his explanation On the Liturgy. I like very much his speeches on Panagia as well. Hm... Perhaps I should read his Life in Christ from the original during Lent!
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
Yes, there are other brief quotes from him in the Orthodox Way that made me think he would be worth reading. Thanks for the recommendation, andreas. It doesn't look as though there is anything on line so it's the local library for me (first of all).
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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El Greco
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# 9313
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Posted
If only you knew Greek. There is a wealth of information available online in Greek!
I think I have spotted those two books, English translations, in amazon.co.uk, but the local library sounds better to me!
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
Johnny, you raise an interesting point. If I am hurt by someone and 'leave it to God' to vindicate me does this allow me to hope that they will be somehow 'punished' for their 'wrong' or should I actually beg God for their salvation and for him to show mercy? 'Forgive them for they know not what they do'?
I guess if it's a choice between my seeking vengence or 'leaving it to God' the latter is a better way. But the best way is surely to seek the restoration of the one causing me to pain?
This is truly a 'hard teaching' and I'm not saying that I follow it (heck, I'm fortunate if I get an inkling 1% of the time!), but I would suggest that God's 'vindication' is to work towards the restoration of the abuser, no?
I think this is a hugely important issue for the whole justice/mercy/love discussion. For sure they interrelate at the point of human response to being wronged.
I was having lunch with a (very nonconformist) friend today and we got to talking about this issue. He told me a story he had read about Christ leading out of a room deep, deep deep in the place of torment a man with a small moustache.
That made both of us wince. The principle of restoration, rehabilitation, of the offenders can be very costly for those who have suffered. We agreed together that the One who became the Suffering Servant for us was the One to be trusted to judge. I get to a place of relinquishment on this when I think of the Creed. This line.
quote:
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
Earlier, in an exchange with Myrrh, I observed that if the Fathers had wanted us to believe that justice and mercy were synonymous with love, they would have worded the creed differently. This way
quote:
He will come again in glory to have infinite mercy on the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
Maybe they were wise not to do that? Maybe we should not after all second guess them, no matter how much we rightly see that God is, at His heart, Love?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Pokrov
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# 11515
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Posted
Barnabas,
Certainly Christ judges, but we announce our own sentence.
As someone else said above it's the difference between those who will say to Christ 'thy will be done' and those to whom Christ will say 'thy will be done'.
Re: Hitler, if Christ can weep for the loss of this human (and God alone knows what happened between both of them in the final hours) then the 'hard teaching' is that we should too. No one is beyond forgiveness if they turn to Christ.
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
Barnabas,
Certainly Christ judges, but we announce our own sentence.
As someone else said above it's the difference between those who will say to Christ 'thy will be done' and those to whom Christ will say 'thy will be done'.
That "somebody" was of course me! It is a most helpful picture from C S Lewis, but it is only a picture. I'm with Kallistos Ware at the end of Oxford Railway station again. "Theologians, do not proceed beyond this point. Penalty, a long time of purification in the next life". Why not be simple and submit to the judgment of Christ the judge? Why is it necessary to know more than the Creed tells us? Do we really know anything more than that?
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
Re: Hitler, if Christ can weep for the loss of this human (and God alone knows what happened between both of them in the final hours) then the 'hard teaching' is that we should too. No one is beyond forgiveness if they turn to Christ.
I do agree with you. The deathbed conversion of Hitler, if it occurred, would be good news and give rise to joy among the angels in heaven. I'm not an elder brother, a ghost at such a feast. But that's not the only option.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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El Greco
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# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Why not be simple and submit to the judgment of Christ the judge? Why is it necessary to know more than the Creed tells us? Do we really know anything more than that?
Barnabas
There are some people who say that God will judge the people, and they usually imply that God will judge all the others but them, all those they have a problem with but them.
God is just, and he will judge the gay, the liberal, the lady that took a place in the line before me, the lazy beggar that is bugging me for a few coins, the neighbor next door that cheats on his wife, Hitler, Satan, Catholics, and that heathen the Dalai Lama.
I repeat:
Si iniquitates observaveris, Domine; Domine, quis sustinebit?
It's a simple question Barnabas. We do not have the luxury of speaking of God judging, and sleeping safely thinking we will be among those that will be saved.
This is a huge barrier to a healthy spiritual life. If I think, even if I don't say so, that you will be deemed OK by the Judge, I have not even made the first step in my spiritual life, I have not yet made the first step towards God. No, I'm sleeping, deceiving myself and depriving myself of fellowship with Jesus Christ.
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Why not be simple and submit to the judgment of Christ the judge? Why is it necessary to know more than the Creed tells us? Do we really know anything more than that?
Barnabas
There are some people who say that God will judge the people, and they usually imply that God will judge all the others but them, all those they have a problem with but them.
I'm not one of those. I'm told by my Lord not to be one of those. So far as your question is concerned, the Psalmist who asked it answered it for all of us.
Psalm 130
A song of ascents.
1 Out of the depths I cry to you, O LORD;
2 O Lord, hear my voice.
Let your ears be attentive
to my cry for mercy.
3 If you, O LORD, kept a record of sins,
O Lord, who could stand?
4 But with you there is forgiveness;
therefore you are feared.
5 I wait for the LORD, my soul waits,
and in his word I put my hope.
6 My soul waits for the Lord
more than watchmen wait for the morning,
more than watchmen wait for the morning.
7 O Israel, put your hope in the LORD,
for with the LORD is unfailing love
and with him is full redemption.
8 He himself will redeem Israel
from all their sins.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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El Greco
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# 9313
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Posted
If there is forgiveness, then why would Christ condemn some? How can you condemn those whom you have forgiven?
I think I have to elaborate a bit... The fathers were very right in the was they shaped the credo... because Christianity is about us repenting and getting saved (yes, actual salvation, not the conviction of salvation when there is no real salvation) in Jesus Christ. Christianity knows better than Universalism. This is why it is very critical that we do not give the wrong impression, that we don't teach that anything goes.
But this does not mean that Christ will actually observe sins. No, it doesn't mean that at all. That would be a false dilemma!
[ 19. March 2008, 20:05: Message edited by: andreas1984 ]
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
If there is forgiveness, then why would Christ condemn some? How can you condemn those whom you have forgiven?
Well, I don't know. Oxford Railway station? It's still "judge" in the Creed, whatever we say.
Sorry andreas, I feel that is not very helpful, but it is pretty much all I've got. Eschatological theology is a fragile plant in any case, and definitely not my strong point.
Anyway, it has been good to have these exchanges today and I'm grateful for the heads up on St Nicolas. Every day there is a new mercy.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
I think it's more like a Father saying to an alcoholic son, 'change your way of life or else this'll be the death of you'. The 'threat' is merely in the highlighting of consequences (which is how I suggested all 'law' functions). However I know enough about alcoholism both personally and professionally to also know that the person afflicted also requires almost a miraculous ontological change in nature to overcome this demon.
How true.
And self-harmers often hurt themselves because they think that it will give them release.
We are both agreed on this miraculous ontological change that is necessary - it is other aspects of the atonement that are under discussion here.
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
These thoughts are coming to me as we discuss this topic, but I think you're right - we both believe in punishment, but my perspective leads me to see it as something we do to ourselves, whereas the PSA 'mindset' sees it as something God does to 'us'.
We have the same dots on the page but link them up differently.
I can see that now. I'm just struggling to see whether or not it is possible to join them up your way, or whether there is a dot conveniently missed out.
As I've said before, I frequently point out to my children that if they choose to disobey they are, in effect, choosing their own punishment. It is not about me wanting to punish them, it is about them bringing down the consequences of their actions upon themselves... however, they are also old enough and smart enough to realise that this is only so because their parents have 'created their world' this way!?
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Jamat
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# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
However, this necessitated a judicial wresting back of what Satan had persusded Adam to give him.
Paul waxes eloqent on this point in his many proofs that Christ, the Messiah, had to walk free from sin and offer himself as a sacrifice. Since no man could be found free from sin's taint to do this, God, in his loving providence became man himself, became sin himself, and did the job. In Christ and him alone we find the authority of man to rule, recaptured.
Thanks - but you still haven't explained what it was about Jesus that meant that only he could do it, and only he could do it this particular way.
(Sorry about the triple post ... but it is hard to keep up with you guys down under.)
What about the wisdom of God is foolishness to man argument?
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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Myrrh
Shipmate
# 11483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I was having lunch with a (very nonconformist) friend today and we got to talking about this issue. He told me a story he had read about Christ leading out of a room deep, deep deep in the place of torment a man with a small moustache.
That made both of us wince. The principle of restoration, rehabilitation, of the offenders can be very costly for those who have suffered. We agreed together that the One who became the Suffering Servant for us was the One to be trusted to judge. I get to a place of relinquishment on this when I think of the Creed. This line.
quote:
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
Earlier, in an exchange with Myrrh, I observed that if the Fathers had wanted us to believe that justice and mercy were synonymous with love, they would have worded the creed differently. This way
quote:
He will come again in glory to have infinite mercy on the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
Maybe they were wise not to do that? Maybe we should not after all second guess them, no matter how much we rightly see that God is, at His heart, Love?
Thank God it's Christ's judgement ... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Our instruction from Him is to be perfect as God is perfect; to love perfectly, to have infinite mercy, to forgive, to bless those who oppose us.
I can't see any reason to think Christ would change his mind about this..
..and this, as Andreas is getting very frustrated saying, is how the 'fathers' who are Orthodox in this understood and taught it.
Myrrh
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and thanks for all the fish
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Myrrh
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# 11483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Good to see you back, andreas. ....
We wrestle with words of course. I think your illustration of the intention of St Isaac to encourage mercy is very fine, but the real conundrum for me is in your last para here.
quote:
Why do you speak of justice, the Saint might have said, when Christ proclaims mercy? Why don't you repent and accept the mercy he offers freely? Why don't you show mercy towards all, as the Lord showed and taught us to do?
I find lots of examples in the parables and teachings where the Lord explained mercy precisely, but in juridical settings. Perhaps the most arresting of all of these is his strong criticism of Pharisaic practice here in Matt 23.. He harks back of course to Micah 6 v 8.
"Woe to you teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You give a tenth of your spices - mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law - justice, mercy and faith. You should have practised the latter without neglecting the former. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!"
Act justly, love mercy, walk humbly. The humble, faithful walk seems to involve the practice of justice and mercy. This is what the Lord requires of us according to Micah, and the absence of all three in the Pharisees leads to this powerful rebuke by Jesus.
So I'm not sure what to make of the message that we should set aside all human notions of justice because they are imperfect. All human notions of mercy are also imperfect. As are all human notions of faithfulness. We need Christ in us.
You argue by quoting Micah and get juridical, how have you missed out mercy? It comes between acting justly and walking humbly.
What did Micah mean by 'acting justly'? The power to judge others and condemn them to punishment? Where is there mercy in that? Or does he mean for each himself to act justly, according to the Law? What is the Law of God? A courtroom where punishment is meted out or a guide on how to live decently and honourably?
Let me give an example of how the Jews interpret the Law in their 613 mitzvot within the Ten Categories:
quote:
(The Ten Thingies)
The mitzvah not to stand aside while a person's life is in danger fits somewhat obviously into the category against murder. It is not particularly obvious, however, that the mitzvah not to embarrass a person fits within the category against murder: it causes the blood to drain from your face thereby shedding blood.
What Christ complained about when arguing with the Pharisees is that they had removed themselves so far from God's Law in their man-made doctrines that keeping their laws broke the very commandments which God had given, and they saw no contradiction.
Christ taught that if we were to enter into life we should keep the Commandments - He didn't teach us to impose the Commandments on others or to judge others; He taught us to practice mercy and forgiveness, to the nth degree. He practiced what He preached, that's the Victory of the Cross, "Father forgive them.."
The best of Jewish laws in society is compensatory, no more than what is lost by the hurt, e.g. no more than the value of an 'eye for an eye', (but here I think the Irish Brehon Laws were better developed, the Jews ended up mixing in religious laws and sitting in judgement over, as our criminal laws, rather than sitting in judgement between two equal protagonists.)
quote:
Coming from the ontological argument of Christ-likeness - and Richard Collins excellent "overlap" argument - as Christ is formed in us do we not need to learn truly what it means to be just, merciful and faithful, according to the unchangeable nature of God's justice, mercy and faithfulness? Is that not a more precise way of looking at this question?
Well I have to agree here, Christ taught to judge, to discriminate - to tell the difference between good and evil - and he taught us how best to deal with the evil we find; for ourselves repentance, for others, forgiveness and mercy.
Myrrh
[ 20. March 2008, 01:42: Message edited by: Myrrh ]
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and thanks for all the fish
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Johnny S
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
What about the wisdom of God is foolishness to man argument?
Sure, and ultimately we all fall back on this.
However, this thread is about discussing atonement models and if you are going to construct a model then I don't think this response is valid at this point.
[i.e. either say that the atonement is a mystery and be done with it, or (however much admitting to our own fallibility) try to construct a consistent model.]
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Jamat
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
What about the wisdom of God is foolishness to man argument?
Sure, and ultimately we all fall back on this.
However, this thread is about discussing atonement models and if you are going to construct a model then I don't think this response is valid at this point.
[i.e. either say that the atonement is a mystery and be done with it, or (however much admitting to our own fallibility) try to construct a consistent model.]
In the beginning was the word...and God raised him from the death he submitted to after he entered the human race. What other proof do you need he was special?
PSA is flawlessly consistent, scriptural and workable. Unfortunately, it is also offensive to some. How surprising is that to anyone?
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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Barnabas62
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
You argue by quoting Micah and get juridical, how have you missed out mercy? It comes between acting justly and walking humbly.
Myrrh, I regret it if my words left that impression. My intention was different - to point to the use of juridical illustrations in the teachings of Jesus. I think what I'm trying to do, inter alia, is to explore ontological/juridical differences between us in our respective theological understandings.
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Coming from the ontological argument of Christ-likeness - and Richard Collins excellent "overlap" argument - as Christ is formed in us do we not need to learn truly what it means to be just, merciful and faithful, according to the unchangeable nature of God's justice, mercy and faithfulness? Is that not a more precise way of looking at this question?
Well I have to agree here, Christ taught to judge, to discriminate - to tell the difference between good and evil - and he taught us how best to deal with the evil we find; for ourselves repentance, for others, forgiveness and mercy.
I'm really happy about that. My argument was intended to support those conclusions - sorry if it got in the way instead. I''m glad we agree.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Barnabas62
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
Thank God it's Christ's judgement ...
Amen
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
Our instruction from Him is to be perfect as God is perfect; to love perfectly, to have infinite mercy, to forgive, to bless those who oppose us.
I can't see any reason to think Christ would change his mind about this..
..and this, as Andreas is getting very frustrated saying, is how the 'fathers' who are Orthodox in this understood and taught it.
Myrrh
Amen - ish! Flip to p11 of The Orthodox Way and read, in the sayings of the Desert Fathers, the "I do not know" of Abbe Joseph. The Suffering Servant Saviour returns as Judge and every knee will bow. How does that work out?
Earlier, I quoted the whole of Psalm 130. I also love its immediate companion.
quote:
Psalm 131
A song of ascents. Of David.
1 My heart is not proud, O LORD,
my eyes are not haughty;
I do not concern myself with great matters
or things too wonderful for me.
2 But I have stilled and quieted my soul;
like a weaned child with its mother,
like a weaned child is my soul within me.
3 O Israel, put your hope in the LORD
both now and forevermore.
Basically, I cannot fully integrate the teachings on how we should live with the teachings of last things. By all means let us try. But I am not really sure that anyone can safely do that without using pictures and forms which may push us towards error as well as illuminate further.
But I will put my hope in the Lord, both now and forevermore. That really is good enough for me. I guess that is my child's guide to life and eschatology, after close to 35 years on the journey. I hope to be growing up to be a child.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Johnny S
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
What other proof do you need he was special?
PSA is flawlessly consistent, scriptural and workable. Unfortunately, it is also offensive to some. How surprising is that to anyone?
Hey, I'm agreeing with you (about PSA anyway ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
To put it crudely only the perfect son of God can cancel out the sins of the world. However, the case needs to be made to show how this all fits into the atonement model.
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Barnabas62
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Posted
Johnny S
Well, it's Maunday Thursday so in response to your recent posts, I thought I'd offer you Bishop Tom Wright's sermon from Maunday Thursday at Durham Cathedral last year. He says some challenging things about wrath, love and atonement models, and the foolishness of the cross.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Myrrh
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
Our instruction from Him is to be perfect as God is perfect; to love perfectly, to have infinite mercy, to forgive, to bless those who oppose us.
I can't see any reason to think Christ would change his mind about this..
..and this, as Andreas is getting very frustrated saying, is how the 'fathers' who are Orthodox in this understood and taught it.
Myrrh
Amen - ish! Flip to p11 of The Orthodox Way and read, in the sayings of the Desert Fathers, the "I do not know" of Abbe Joseph. The Suffering Servant Saviour returns as Judge and every knee will bow. How does that work out?
We're back to how we individually experience God's love and mercy, as St Symeon the New Theologian (scroll on to page 17) or as enemy? God doesn't change.
Myrrh
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Johnny S
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I thought I'd offer you Bishop Tom Wright's sermon from Maunday Thursday at Durham Cathedral last year.
As you'd expect from Tom some great stuff here. I was rather surprised that he could only remember one half of the most famous verse in the Bible though.
Still, it is a bit much to expect a Bishop to recall the whole of John 3: 16 isn't it?
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Barnabas62
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
We're back to how we individually experience God's love and mercy, as St Symeon the New Theologian (scroll on to page 17) or as enemy? God doesn't change.
Myrrh
"See from this time onward you shall be my brother, my fellow heir and my friend". In our Calendar it is Maunday Thursday. I am very happy to leave our discussion at this point, with those words of faithful promise to someone who sought with his whole heart and was found. Thanks, Myrrh.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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El Greco
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
PSA is flawlessly consistent, scriptural and workable.
It's not scriptural. If it was scriptural, it would be true, and the Orthodox Church would have no problem with it. The whole problem is that it is not scriptural. To take the letter of the Scriptures and then use philosophical methods to speculate on things Christian is not in accordance with the spirit of the Scriptures.
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Amen - ish! Flip to p11 of The Orthodox Way and read, in the sayings of the Desert Fathers, the "I do not know" of Abbe Joseph.
You sure say quite a lot about God's Judgment and Justice for someone that does not know what the Scriptures mean ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
quote:
The Suffering Servant Saviour returns as Judge and every knee will bow. How does that work out?
Remember St. Nikolas Kabasilas... The Suffering Servant remains the Suffering Servant... He does not change. He will wear his belt, bow down, and serve us even then!
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Barnabas62
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
You sure say quite a lot about God's Judgment and Justice for someone that does not know what the Scriptures mean
I don't know what some of the scriptures mean, andreas. An admission of particular ignorance is not an admission of total ignorance.
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The Suffering Servant Saviour returns as Judge and every knee will bow. How does that work out?
Remember St. Nikolas Kabasilas... The Suffering Servant remains the Suffering Servant... He does not change. He will wear his belt, bow down, and serve us even then!
Interesting. How do you interpret Phil 2:9-10 and Romans 14:9 and Rev 5:11-14?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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El Greco
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Posted
I read the verses you mentioned. I think there is a problem here in whether Lordship comes with Power or with Powerlessness. Myrrh has been quite vocal about it for ages. Human lordship comes with power, but Divine Lordship comes with Powerlessness. Not like the princes and the kings of men...
I can't but think that for some the suffering servant is not enough. He *must* take Power eventually for him to be truly King... What he rejected while he was on earth, he must accept at some point.
No. This is who he is. Period. If things were different, he wouldn't be who he is, he wouldn't be the true God who is worthy of all honor, glory and worship.
Let me quote something from Cassiel's blog.
She writes about Forgiveness Vespers:
quote:
On reaching the front of the line, like everyone else, I made a prostration to my priest and he did likewise. This is not a bow, not even a profound bow, but a position with your knees and forehead on the floor. It is extremely humbling to find yourself in a full prostration, head-to-head with an Orthodox priest.
What can you say at that point? He asked my forgiveness and I asked his, though I could think of nothing specific he had done – in fact, that was true for all four priests. But as this first one, my spiritual father, told us in catechism on Thursday night, there is a sense in which each of us has failed simply by not being the person God designed us to be. All fallen, unless we are deified we sin – we miss the mark, and in doing so we fail each other as well as God. I have never been so conscious of all my failing as I am here, though strangely this doesn’t really result in the kind of serious low self-esteem one might expect. Yes, low self-esteem in a sense: how could I esteem myself less than when I realize that I fail so consistently to meet the mark God created me to reach? I feel it even more deeply when I realize how that affects other people, whether I realize it or not.
It is extremely humbling to find yourself in a full prostration, head-to-head with an Orthodox priest.
Imagine how humbling it is to find yourself in the presence of Jesus Christ, who, fixing his belt so that his clothes won't get in the way, bows down to serve you. Horror. Peter, before the Pentecost, was unable to let Him do that. You? The Teacher? The Lord? Yet what did Christ reply? Yes, I, the Teacher, the Lord. And if I do it, you are to do it as well.
Imagine Peter after the Pentecost, finding Jesus Christ once again willing to serve him. Now he knows, now he understands. What will he do? Wont he bow down as well to serve his Lord and Teacher and his fellow servants? Won't every knee bow down? Not because of power. Far be it from God to want such prostrations. But because of powerlessness. This is why the gospel is foolishness to the Gentiles and scandal to the Jews. Because the God of the Gospel if the All-Powerless One, the All-Loving One, the All-Merciful One, the Humble Servant, and not like the powerful kings we want for rulers.
Every knee shall bow. But not because of power.
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Barnabas62
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Posted
This was news to me, andreas. So do you think words like Omnipotent and Almighty are wrong to apply to God?
You have to remember I'm a nonconformist. We don't have much time for earthy potentates, indeed one of our predecessors had much to do with unseating a King of England. But we've never had any problems for example in singing hymns such as "Crown Him with Many Crowns". You know, the one with the last verse which goes like this.
"Crown Him the Lord of Years
The Potentate of Time"
It seems true that the signs of the Suffering Servant will certainly be visible eternally. We sing from the same hymn
"Those wounds yet visible above
In beauty glorified".
And of course, in Handel's Messiah, there is the wonderful final chorus based on these scriptures from Rev 5
"Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. Blessing and honour, glory and power be unto Him that sitteth upon the throne and to the Lamb for ever and ever Amen".
I don't know enough about your hymnody and sacred music, but such themes are threaded ubiquitously through church music in our tradition. Which as I say is wary of earthly potentates. (And is also in general quite hot on church leaders being servant leaders, following Christ.)
Thank you for explaining these things. I hope our nonconformist tendency to thumb the nose at the earthly powerful and only bow the knee to the King of Kings and Lord of Lords doesn't come across as too schizoid?
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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El Greco
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Posted
It's like what Richard was saying before... To say "Do not call God just" does not mean that God is unjust, or that it is OK for others to say I think "God is not just"...
God is omnipotent and almighty. But how are we to understand those words? Is God an arrogant almighty or a humble almighty? You will agree that he is humble. How humble? Will he not lose his temper at some point? No, he wont. He is so humble that he lets humans to crucify him, and when they do, not only he does not regard the deed, but he blesses them on top of that!
He is so humble that he does not ask for worship. He does not create us so that we are his servants, but so that we will be his friends. He wants us to be his friends. He is in love with us.
And because he is who he is, we become humble when we realize his humility. We want to love him back when we realize his love. Let us love him because he loved us first.
He is King. That's for sure. But not the kind of king the Jews expected or modern pop culture assumes he is.
One more thing, on Judgment. It is crucial that we have Judgment before our eyes, not because he will punish us, but because we can turn out incapable of partaking in him.
[ 20. March 2008, 17:04: Message edited by: andreas1984 ]
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Barnabas62
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Posted
Thanks andreas - I get it now. There is a modern song we sing, entitled Humble King, which expresses these things.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Jamat
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Posted
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamat:
[qb]PSA is flawlessly consistent, scriptural and workable.
It's not scriptural. If it was scriptural, it would be true, and the Orthodox Church would have no problem with it. The whole problem is that it is not scriptural. To take the letter of the Scriptures and then use philosophical methods to speculate on things Christian is not in accordance with the spirit of the Scriptures.
I take it you have read the entire thread?
So I'll just say one thing.
It is not the Orthodox church that determines how scripture must be interpreted. It is the Holy Spirit, who, when last I looked, indwells every believer, not a monolithic institution or any denominational gropup for that matter.
It is Easter. Consider that Christ, our passover, was sacrificed for us.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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El Greco
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Posted
Dear Jamat
I don't accept the dichotomy, the dilemma, between "all believers" and "monolithic organization". For me, it's not an issue of "I choose to believe in God, and this means that the Holy Spirit comes and inspires me". The Holy Spirit is not given to me because I wish so. The acquisition of the Holy Spirit is a goal, not a given.
So, I will repeat what I said. If it's scriptural, it's true. I don't accept it because it is not scriptural, and not because "I'm offended by it".
I'm not saying that all Orthodox are led by the Holy Spirit, while none non-Orthodox is. I am saying, however, that for the Orthodox Church, what you wrote "it's scriptural but some find it offensive" is not even on the table. That's no option for the Orthodox Church.
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Johnny S
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Posted
Having come back from a Good Friday service - all I can say is how awesome and amazing the cross is.
Another 10,000 posts on this thread could never do it justice! (er... or is that 'do it love'? )
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Jamat
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Posted
[ quote:
QUOTE]Originally posted by andreas1984:
[qb] Dear Jamat
I don't accept the dichotomy, the dilemma, between "all believers" and "monolithic organization". For me, it's not an issue of "I choose to believe in God, and this means that the Holy Spirit comes and inspires me". The Holy Spirit is not given to me because I wish so. The acquisition of the Holy Spirit is a goal, not a given.
Thank you for your comment. You are obviously a sincere and committed Christian. My point is that there is life outside the Orthodox fishbowl. As a born Catholic and converted Pentecostal, I understandably am not inside your mind set. However, I do know Christ died for my sins and I no longer have to bear them. Thus, my understanding of the atonement is experiential not merely theoretical.
Regarding the Holy Spirit, He was given on the day of Pentecost. He is to therefore be obeyed and enjoyed, not attained to.
[ 21. March 2008, 05:51: Message edited by: Jamat ]
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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Barnabas62
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Having come back from a Good Friday service - all I can say is how awesome and amazing the cross is.
Another 10,000 posts on this thread could never do it justice! (er... or is that 'do it love'? )
I have very similar thoughts this morning, following a late-ish night and very moving Maunday Thursday service. "Lost in wonder, love and praise."
We have daily services of worship during Holy week, and I'll be going to another today.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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mdijon
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
I think it's more like a Father saying to an alcoholic son, 'change your way of life or else this'll be the death of you'. The 'threat' is merely in the highlighting of consequences (which is how I suggested all 'law' functions). However I know enough about alcoholism both personally and professionally to also know that the person afflicted also requires almost a miraculous ontological change in nature to overcome this demon.
The difference is that alcoholism is not the son's experience of the father - it is simply the son's experience of his own behaviour. The implication, I suppose, might be that the son cannot then stand the presence of his father because of the son's alcoholism - but this seems to be a minor contributor to his suffering.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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El Greco
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Posted
I think that it was father Gregory who said that hell won't be their perception of God, but their own brokenness while they perceive the goodness they cannot partake in...
To speak in terms of Richard's illustration, imagine that broken man being given his father's palace. He will still be broken despite living in the palace with his father. He will be living there, but he wont be partaking in what his father makes available for him. His hell will be his own brokenness.
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Johnny S
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
To speak in terms of Richard's illustration, imagine that broken man being given his father's palace. He will still be broken despite living in the palace with his father. He will be living there, but he wont be partaking in what his father makes available for him. His hell will be his own brokenness.
You are stretching the illustration way too far here.
I can think of several people whom I love but are now dead. My relationship with them is now, at best 'latent', and I miss them, but I wouldn't describe it as 'hell'.
Therefore there must be something more than just a refusal to enter into the relationship with the Father. Even your illustration speaks of privation which means an active punishment and not just letting him be.
You are wriggling in your attempt to make words mean what they do not mean. There is some elasticity here but you are stretching them beyond breaking point.
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