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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Christus Victor
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
But all good fruit is the result of God's grace, for we have no power of our own. Nevertheless, obedience to God is consistently described as the pre-condition to benefitting from that grace.
This is getting silly Freddy. Everyone agrees that only the righteous go to 'heaven'. Since you agree that obedience is only possible through Christ's grace none of the examples you have given demonstrate that obedience is a pre-requisite to receiving God's grace.
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Jamat
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# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Freddy wrote: Christ overcame the power of darkness, so it is His righteousness that saves us. But it is not that His righteousness is imputed to us. Rather it is our belief in and obedience to Him that is imputed to us as if it were our own righteousness
Freddy, Eph 2:8 states that it is by grace we are saved through faith, not of works lest any should boast..Ro 5:1 that having been justified by faith we have peace with god.
Now what is that if nit an assurance of relationship and what is that but an assurance of salvation.
Obedience is clearly subsequent to grace Freddy.
[ 21. July 2008, 08:28: Message edited by: Jamat ]
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Since you agree that obedience is only possible through Christ's grace none of the examples you have given demonstrate that obedience is a pre-requisite to receiving God's grace.
Yes they do. God's grace simply means that the power to obey originates in God, as all power must. Obedience is still the pre-requisite for salvation, not simply faith. The passages I quote above demonstrate this.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Freddy, Eph 2:8 states that it is by grace we are saved through faith, not of works lest any should boast..Ro 5:1 that having been justified by faith we have peace with god.
So you are willing to ignore fourteen of Christ's statements because of two of Paul's?
What I said above accounts for these statements about faith and grace. But you cannot account for Jesus' insistence on obedience as a pre-condition to salvation.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
Jamat, Johnny, you both make my point. Even when presented with words of Christ that clearly say that those who do not obey Him will not enter the kingdom of heaven, you insist that obedience is not a pre-condition to salvation.
This is why I say that PSA is a false and wicked doctrine because it not only makes God into a monster, it removes obedience to God from the formula of salvation. By making salvation a matter of Christ's imputed righteousness, rather than our trust in and obedience to God, PSA effectively nullifies everything Christ teaches about salvation.
PSA is in essence nothing more than a way of escaping the obvious meaning of Christ's words, a message that is consistent in the Bible from beginning to end. The righteous are saved, the wicked are condemned. It's as simple as that.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Johnny S:
[qb] God's grace simply means that the power to obey originates in God, as all power must. Obedience is still the pre-requisite for salvation, not simply faith. The passages I quote above demonstrate this.
Freddy did you read the label carefully that you are not supposed to have any alcohol with those pills? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
You are saying that obedience is a gift from God (only possible through his grace) and then say that makes obedience a pre-requisite for salvation!
So the question is, what comes first - grace or obedience? And your answer is grace.
Same answer as mine.
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Same answer as mine.
Then you should have no trouble with Jesus saying both that without Him we can do nothing, and at the same time that obedience to Him is a pre-condition to salvation.
You are still denying the truth of Jesus' words. Is it true or false that "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven"?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
You are still denying the truth of Jesus' words. Is it true or false that "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven"?
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) How am I denying it?
According to you no one can obey Jesus without receiving his grace. That is exactly what I say. So if I'm denying the words of Christ, then you must be too.
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
How am I denying it?
PSA's salvific formula denies it. Christ says that salvation depends on obedience to Him. PSA says it depends on faith.
You deny it when you say that obedience to Christ is not the pre-condition to salvation.
My acknowledgment that all power is from Him is not the same as PSA's claim of salvation by faith alone.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
.My acknowledgment that all power is from Him is not the same as PSA's claim of salvation by faith alone.
I never said that they were the same, I just said that both are entirely compatible with Christ's words.
If faith must produce obedience to be real faith then only those who obey are saved. That is entirely consistent with salvation by faith alone.
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
If faith must produce obedience to be real faith then only those who obey are saved. That is entirely consistent with salvation by faith alone.
Except that this is not the way that Christ frames it. He states that it is only when a person "does the will of the Father" that he is able to "enter into the kingdom of God." Jesus says this in numerous different ways.
And if the two are so intrinsically connected why not simply say that obedience to God is the pre-condition to salvation? That's what Jesus did.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Except that this is not the way that Christ frames it. He states that it is only when a person "does the will of the Father" that he is able to "enter into the kingdom of God." Jesus says this in numerous different ways.
Where does he say that?
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Except that this is not the way that Christ frames it. He states that it is only when a person "does the will of the Father" that he is able to "enter into the kingdom of God." Jesus says this in numerous different ways.
Where does he say that?
quote:
Matthew 7:21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22“Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Jesus is saying that it is not sufficient to say "Lord Lord" to enter the kingdom of heaven. We must "do the will of My Father."
He says it in a similar way in John 15:
quote:
John 15.6-10 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned…. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love.
Here Jesus states that those who "keep My commandments" are the ones who abide in His love. Others are "cast out".
Similarly in Revelation Jesus says:
quote:
Revelation 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
Here and several other places Jesus emphasizes that people will be judged according to their works. Doing His commandments is the pre-condition for "entering the city."
Many other passages say similar things:
quote:
Luke 6:46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do the things which I say? 47“Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48“He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock.
John 15:14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.
Matthew 5: 7 Blessed are the merciful, For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.
Matthew 7:19 “Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Matthew 7:24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
Matthew 5:20 “Unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of the heavens.”
Matthew 13:49 At the completion of the age angels will go forth and separate the wicked from out of the midst of the righteous.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works.
Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” 17So He said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God. But if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments.” 18He said to Him, “Which ones?” Jesus said, “ ‘You shall not murder,’ ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ ‘You shall not steal,’ ‘You shall not bear false witness,’ 19‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ ” 20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?” 21Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”
Revelation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Matthew 25:45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
I'm surprised that you don't see any tension between passages like these and the assertion that salvation is based on faith alone. As Paul says, Christ "became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him" (Hebrews 5:9).
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
[Freddy, Eph 2:8 states that it is by grace we are saved through faith, not of works lest any should boast..Ro 5:1 that having been justified by faith we have peace with god.
Jamat, you seem to be unaware that Paul, Peter, and others also say seemingly contrary things:
quote:
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Galatians 5:21 Envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
1 Peter 4:18 Now “ If the righteous one is scarcely saved, Where will the ungodly and the sinner appear?” 19 Therefore let those who suffer according to the will of God commit their souls to Him in doing good, as to a faithful Creator.
Romans 2:5 But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, 9 tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil...13 for not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified.
2 Thessalonians 1:8 taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power.
1 Peter 4:17 For the time has come for judgment to begin at the house of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God?
But why rely on Paul over Jesus?
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Obedience is clearly subsequent to grace Freddy.
So are you able to obey the commandments or not? Does your salvation depend on this ability? Jesus says that it does.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Matthew 7:21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22“Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
Jesus is saying that it is not sufficient to say "Lord Lord" to enter the kingdom of heaven. We must "do the will of My Father."
You managed to glance over the 'in that day'. Jesus is speaking retrospectively about the end of time / last judgment - i.e. entirely consistent with faith is not faith unless it produces works.
Also it is interesting that (in this quote) the Father speaks about a lack of relationship as well as a lack of obedience.
Nothing here about obedience must come first.
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
He says it in a similar way in John 15:
quote:
John 15.6-10 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned…. 10“If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love.
Here Jesus states that those who "keep My commandments" are the ones who abide in His love. Others are "cast out".
Yes, a passage about remaining in Christ's love through obedience ... nothing about entering that love / relationship through obedience though.
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Similarly in Revelation Jesus says:
quote:
Revelation 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” 14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
Here and several other places Jesus emphasizes that people will be judged according to their works. Doing His commandments is the pre-condition for "entering the city."
Ah, now you have to appeal to obscure textual variants to make your case. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) I'm pretty convinced that v 14 should read, "Blessed are those who wash their robes..." A variant that is far more likely than the one you use since it occurs already in Rev. 7 v 14.
Thanks for bringing this verse up - it shows that entrance into the heavenly city is for those who have been 'washed in the blood of the lamb' - a phrase which, as chapter 7 explains, is linked to the atonement ... and hence back to the topic of this thread.
So an emphatic 'no' - those passages are all consistent with my reading of salvation.
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
I don't like that retrospective thing.
At last I got chance to get back to this.
How do you understand 'the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world' (Revelation 13 v 8) ?
[ 22. July 2008, 04:53: Message edited by: Johnny S ]
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El Greco
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# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
How do you understand 'the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world' (Revelation 13 v 8) ?
There are two uses of that phrase that I am aware of.
The first, is as used by the Scriptures. I red Revelation 13.8 to say "All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the creation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain".
In my view, Apostle John does not refer to the Lamb, when he says "from the foundation of the world", but to the names that were written in the book.
When, in your view, did the names get written in the book of life?
The second, is as used by some Orthodox. They say that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, meaning that it is in God's nature to be open to others and self-sacrificing. God is slain in an ontological level, and the Cross is a manifestation of God's character. So, there was not a time when God was not selfless and self-sacrificing, even though our eyes finally got opened with the crucifixion under the light of the resurrection (well, at least to those people that they did get opened).
Because the verse is written the way it is, it allows the more poetical in inclination to use that phrasing, although out of context*, to mean that profound truth about God's being.
*ETA: It's like "The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world." which is read by those poetically inclined as "The true light which gives light to every man that is coming into the world."
[ 22. July 2008, 09:19: Message edited by: §Andrew ]
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
The second, is as used by some Orthodox. They say that the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, meaning that it is in God's nature to be open to others and self-sacrificing. God is slain in an ontological level, and the Cross is a manifestation of God's character. So, there was not a time when God was not selfless and self-sacrificing, even though our eyes finally got opened with the crucifixion under the light of the resurrection (well, at least to those people that they did get opened).
Okay. Although I'd place a greater emphasis on the physical event of Easter, this is roughly what I meant by 'retrospective' which you said you don't like.
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El Greco
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# 9313
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Posted
But it isn't retrospective!!! God is selfless from the beginning. It's not that the Crucifixion affects something in a retrospective way. He is "slain" (in an ontological sense) both before, during and after the crucifixion. Weren't you saying that the physical slaughter had an effect in a retrospective way?? Isn't that different?
ETA: what do you mean by a greater emphasis on the physical events of Easter? I say our eyes got opened then. What more do you mean to that?
[ 22. July 2008, 09:36: Message edited by: §Andrew ]
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
But it isn't retrospective!!! God is selfless from the beginning. It's not that the Crucifixion affects something in a retrospective way. He is "slain" (in an ontological sense) both before, during and after the crucifixion. Weren't you saying that the physical slaughter had an effect in a retrospective way?? Isn't that different?
I take it back - we obvously mean completely different things.
I meant that since John the Apostle felt free to use this language retrospectively (even if metaphorically) I can't see what the fuss is all about. Since God created time it doesn't bother me but it obviously bothers you.
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El Greco
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# 9313
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Posted
You say John the Apostle used it retrospectively.
I say he was talking about the names and not the lamb that was slain, when he said "from the foundation of the world".
And even when I accept that phrasing, I do not take it to be retrospective, but to be about something else than the physical slaughter of Christ on the Cross.
The retrospective meaning might be obvious to you and far from apparent to me, but something very different is obvious to me that is far from apparent to you.
ETA: Yes, we do mean completely different things ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 22. July 2008, 10:11: Message edited by: §Andrew ]
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Nothing here about obedience must come first.....
Yes, a passage about remaining in Christ's love through obedience ... nothing about entering that love / relationship through obedience though.
Wow. So you are prepared to argue that in each instance where Jesus says something like "the wicked will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life” - that He is not actually placing pre-conditions as to who is saved and who is not saved?
This is why I say that PSA is not only a mistaken doctrine, it is actually a wicked doctrine. It involves twisting Christ's own words to remove their obvious meaning.
But if you will not believe Christ, will you at least believe Paul? He said:
quote:
Hebrews 5:9 And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him.
If He is the author of salvation to those who obey Him, He must not be the author of it for those who do not obey Him. Is this not a pre-condition?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
One more thing.
Johnny and Jamat, I am interested to see that you are aware that accepting Jesus' words as making salvation conditional on obedience would invalidate the basic premises of PSA theology.
So it is imperative for you to interpret Jesus' words in a way that does not make good behavior (or even repentance?) a pre-requisite for salvation.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
It involves twisting Christ's own words to remove their obvious meaning.
I'll take that as an admission that you were twisting Matthew 7 and Revelation 22 out of context then.
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
But if you will not believe Christ, will you at least believe Paul? He said:
Actually I thought it was only nut-job fundamentalists who thought Paul wrote Hebrews.
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
If He is the author of salvation to those who obey Him, He must not be the author of it for those who do not obey Him. Is this not a pre-condition?
It is a condition, it is not (necessarily) a pre-condition.
Freddy we are going round in circles here. The bottom line is that you want PSA to say this, so that you can dismiss it, but it doesn't.
Yes, Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey him. But absolutely nothing is said about the relative sequence of grace and obedience in these verses.
And it is also interesting that the context of Hebrews 5 is about sacrifice for sin. So, while I fully agree that the the salvation spoken about is for those who obey Jesus, that is hardly the main thrust of the chapter is it? The writer is keen to explain in what way the Priesthood of Jesus is superior to the Levitical Priesthood. So, yet again, you've brought us back to a passage that focusses on atonement.
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
So it is imperative for you to interpret Jesus' words in a way that does not make good behavior (or even repentance?) a pre-requisite for salvation.
I don't think that's fair. I fully admit that I'm biased, but my intention at least, is to put into practise what Jesus teaches.
I honestly think that you are not doing a good job at explaining them in context.
You see I'm happy to concede your point above if you equally admit that you are desperate to prove this point because of your hatred of PSA. It cuts both ways.
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
I'll take that as an admission that you were twisting Matthew 7 and Revelation 22 out of context then.
Hah. Go ahead and put them in context then. I'd like to see you try.
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Actually I thought it was only nut-job fundamentalists who thought Paul wrote Hebrews.
Sorry. Does that invalidate the passage then?
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
If He is the author of salvation to those who obey Him, He must not be the author of it for those who do not obey Him. Is this not a pre-condition?
It is a condition, it is not (necessarily) a pre-condition.
Uh-huh. So?
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
Yes, Jesus is the author of salvation to those who obey him. But absolutely nothing is said about the relative sequence of grace and obedience in these verses.
The obvious sequence is that if you obey Him He is then the author of your salvation. If it was the reverse He would have said "He is the author of salvation so that they can then obey Him." Why not go with the obvious reading?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
I honestly think that you are not doing a good job at explaining them in context.
Maybe you're right. Go ahead and do a better job. I think, though, that the Bible produces a fairly endless supply of statements to the effect that the righteous are saved and the wicked are condemned. Yet PSA miraculously dismisses them all by asserting that since none are righteous this can't possibly be the basis of our salvation. I think that this is an error.
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
You see I'm happy to concede your point above if you equally admit that you are desperate to prove this point because of your hatred of PSA. It cuts both ways.
It doesn't cut both ways. You're saying that since I see PSA's mistake then I must be biased. That doesn't follow. I am not just asserting a mistake, I am demonstrating it by quoting what the Bible actually says. If I am mistaken then show me how I have misrepresented or misinterpreted those passages. Or present others that show that I am wrong.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I am not just asserting a mistake, I am demonstrating it by quoting what the Bible actually says. If I am mistaken then show me how I have misrepresented or misinterpreted those passages.
I thought I'd done that already with Matthew 7, John 15, Revelation 22 and Hebrews 5.
You obviously disagree with my interpretation but in each case I gave given specific examples of where I think you have misrepresented the passages.
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
I thought I'd done that already with Matthew 7, John 15, Revelation 22 and Hebrews 5.
Yes, thank you. I don't think that your comments refute my point in any way. The passages still make our future happiness conditional on obedience to God.
I was surprised by your comment on Revelation 22. I never knew that the KJV and NKJV differed from the NIV and other versions on that verse.
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
You obviously disagree with my interpretation but in each case I gave given specific examples of where I think you have misrepresented the passages.
I quoted 17 passages, and could quote many more with the same basic message. Can you refute them all? For example, Jesus said:
quote:
Matthew 6:14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
Jesus explicitly makes our forgiveness, and therefore our salvation, conditional on our own forgiveness of others. This condition is inconsistent with PSA.
Both Jesus and Paul place conditions on salvation that PSA not only does not account for but actively denies - as you are doing here.
The wicked are not saved. The righteous are saved. The wicked can become righteous and be saved by believing the Gospel, repenting, and changing their ways. Christ came into the world to make this possible by bringing light into the world to overcome the power of darkness.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
Well, I'm off to Borneo on vacation for a few weeks. So forgive me if I don't continue right away, as I'm not sure of the connection there. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I quoted 17 passages, and could quote many more with the same basic message.
I've not got the time to go through all 17 - I thought tackling the four main ones was enough to demonstrate the trend of interpretation.
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Matthew 6:14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
Jesus explicitly makes our forgiveness, and therefore our salvation, conditional on our own forgiveness of others. This condition is inconsistent with PSA.
Freddy this long thread has been going on for ages. On it many of the CV advocates have stressed that there was no need for the atonement to 'change' anything in God because he is constantly in a state of forgiveness towards us. This has been the main plank of their argument - the barrier is on our side.
So take this verse from Matthew 6 in a 'cause and effect' way if you wish but if you do so it will deliver CV a far more fatal blow than to PSA.
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
The wicked are not saved. The righteous are saved. The wicked can become righteous and be saved by believing the Gospel, repenting, and changing their ways.
Freddy this is the PSA gospel. We both believe exactly the same 'formula'. The difference between us is that I say the behavioural change comes as a consequence of believing the gospel - but I could still assent to what you've said above.
As I keep saying, there are fundamental differences between us but you are barking up the wrong tree here.
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Well, I'm off to Borneo on vacation for a few weeks.
Have a great time! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
Hey Freddy,
Have a good de-stress in Borneo.
BTW, After reading the discussion, I think wires are crossed about obedience as an idea.
I maintain that what we need to obey, is the revelation the HS puts into our hearts. Essentially, we obey by believing the gospel.
Now there is,of course, an ongoing walk of obedience to the injunctions of Christ- forgiveness, love of one's brother etc. However, these things are after the basic obedience, which is the obedience of 'faith'.(Ro 16:26)
Freddy I am intrigued as to why you are so vehemently opposed to the idea that God, loved the world so much, that he sen this son so that those who BELIEVE in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.(Jn 3:16) (paraphrased)
My tongue is actually only half in my cheek as I say this.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Well I'm back from the big island. Kudat is beautiful, but the locals are more resistant to conversion than I would have thought. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
I quoted 17 passages, and could quote many more with the same basic message.
I've not got the time to go through all 17 - I thought tackling the four main ones was enough to demonstrate the trend of interpretation.
Your interpretation reverses the obvious meaning of Jesus' words. "If-then" statements usually indicate causality.
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Matthew 6:14 “For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."
Jesus explicitly makes our forgiveness, and therefore our salvation, conditional on our own forgiveness of others. This condition is inconsistent with PSA.
Freddy this long thread has been going on for ages. On it many of the CV advocates have stressed that there was no need for the atonement to 'change' anything in God because he is constantly in a state of forgiveness towards us. This has been the main plank of their argument - the barrier is on our side.
That's right. God's forgiveness is a constant, but we do not receive it unless we forgive others. We change, not God.
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
So take this verse from Matthew 6 in a 'cause and effect' way if you wish but if you do so it will deliver CV a far more fatal blow than to PSA.
Not at all. PSA requires that God change and does not account for the passages that say that He does not change. CV makes it clear that we are the ones who change - when we repent and change our ways, such as by forgiving others, we are then able to receive God's ever-present and unchanging love.
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
The wicked are not saved. The righteous are saved. The wicked can become righteous and be saved by believing the Gospel, repenting, and changing their ways.
Freddy this is the PSA gospel. We both believe exactly the same 'formula'. The difference between us is that I say the behavioural change comes as a consequence of believing the gospel - but I could still assent to what you've said above.
I'm glad to hear this. However, I think that it is more than a technical difference to think that salvation precedes our change. God's power causes our change, but it is our free will, which is a free gift from Him, that accepts this power.
Simply put, Jesus' language makes salvation a result of both belief and obedience. PSA does not account for this.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
I maintain that what we need to obey, is the revelation the HS puts into our hearts. Essentially, we obey by believing the gospel.
If that is the case then why does Jesus make so many statements about how foolish those are who hear but do not obey?
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Freddy I am intrigued as to why you are so vehemently opposed to the idea that God, loved the world so much, that he sen this son so that those who BELIEVE in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life.(Jn 3:16) (paraphrased)
I absolutely accept John 3:16. When Jesus speaks of belief He includes obedience, as is clear from His statements about the wickedness of those who do not obey.
Jesus came into the world to teach us to stop sinning, so that we can receive God's love and be happy. He did this by preaching the gospel and by fighting against the inner power of the hells. These two things are what set us free and continue to make us free to the extent that we hear and do His words. This is what John 3:16 is about.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Well I'm back from the big island.
Welcome back.
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Your interpretation reverses the obvious meaning of Jesus' words. "If-then" statements usually indicate causality.
Yes, but what kind of cause? And is it just a secondary cause?
Freddy, the great news of the gospel is that I'm not a slave (having to earn God's favour through if-then causality) ... I'm a Son, which means that I'm going to spend the rest of my life looking to display familial resemblance. Heaven will be full of sons (and daughters) ... prodigal ones, not religious slaves.
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
CV makes it clear that we are the ones who change - when we repent and change our ways, such as by forgiving others, we are then able to receive God's ever-present and unchanging love.
What is the point of repentance - according to you there is a causality in the gospels. Jesus called for perfection from his followers, for a righteousness of complete obedience better than the Pharisees - if I need to repent then it is too late, I've failed Christ's standards... and yet even the thief on the cross was welcomed into paradise ...?
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Simply put, Jesus' language makes salvation a result of both belief and obedience. PSA does not account for this.
I know you think that. All of the passages you have cited are also consistent with this reading - salvation is the result of belief which must produce obedience.
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
It is heartening to hear you agree with Jn 3;16 Freddy and I hope you had a good break.
If obedience is the issue, you haven't dealt with the concept paul posits, The 'obedience of faith'.
This is clearly a very specific type of obedience Freddy and is mentioned in more than one place.(Ro 1:5, 16:26)
The issue is that without faith, we cannot begin to conform to obedient actions, our sinfulness precludes it. Truly obedient actions are surely subsequent to an obedient, ie 'believing', heart.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Your interpretation reverses the obvious meaning of Jesus' words. "If-then" statements usually indicate causality.
Yes, but what kind of cause? And is it just a secondary cause?
Freddy, the great news of the gospel is that I'm not a slave (having to earn God's favour through if-then causality) ... I'm a Son, which means that I'm going to spend the rest of my life looking to display familial resemblance. Heaven will be full of sons (and daughters) ... prodigal ones, not religious slaves.
How do you become a son? It's not as if Jesus is silent on this:
quote:
John 8:31 “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.” 34 “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed...
51 Most assuredly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death.”
You become a slave of sin by committing sin. you become a son of God by abiding in, or keeping, His Word. He says something similar in Revelation:
quote:
Revelation 22:6 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts. 7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
Here He contrasts those who "overcome" with those who are unbelieving, murderers, sexually immoral, etc. We cannot, of course, "overcome" anything of our own power - we need to trust in our Lord Jesus Christ, and seek His help to obey His word.
What is it to "abide in My word"?
quote:
John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
Is this saying that keeping His commandments is what "abiding" means? This is how I read it.
Alternatively, Jesus says:
quote:
John 15:6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Is this primary or secondary causation? Does it matter? We know that the source of all power is in God, so He must be the primary cause. But unless we also assign reality to free will and freedom of action then there is no point to any of this.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Johnny and Jamat, thank you for satying with this. I think that these points are central to what CV and PSA are all about.
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
What is the point of repentance - according to you there is a causality in the gospels. Jesus called for perfection from his followers, for a righteousness of complete obedience better than the Pharisees - if I need to repent then it is too late, I've failed Christ's standards... and yet even the thief on the cross was welcomed into paradise ...?
Jesus did call for perfection from His followers. He also made it clear that we are not perfect, that no one is good but God. He does not make perfection the standard for acceptance in His kingdom.
His acceptance of sinners who believe and repent indicate that it is the sincerity of our hearts and the direction of our lives that count.
His acceptance of the woman caught in adultery and the thief on the cross show that the deciding factor is not strictly the sum total of our actions.
His parable of the prodigal son illustrates that He is looking for change, and that heaven rejoices over even minor indications of it.
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
Simply put, Jesus' language makes salvation a result of both belief and obedience. PSA does not account for this.
I know you think that. All of the passages you have cited are also consistent with this reading - salvation is the result of belief which must produce obedience.
Yes, if you don't obey then you don't really believe. It is also true - and this is important - that you really can't turn away from sin without believing in and depending on God. This is one of the deepest and most profound secrets of religion.
Belief and obedience are inseparable. So if you assume obedience whenever belief is mentioned, as I think the gospels do, then I am with you all the way.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
If obedience is the issue, you haven't dealt with the concept paul posits, The 'obedience of faith'.
This is clearly a very specific type of obedience Freddy and is mentioned in more than one place.(Ro 1:5, 16:26)
The obedience of faith seems to me to be obedience to Jesus and His words:
quote:
Romans 1:5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ.
Romans 16:25 Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began 26 but now made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith— 27 to God, alone wise, be glory through Jesus Christ forever.
Isn't Paul here calling for people to be obedient to what we believe?
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
The issue is that without faith, we cannot begin to conform to obedient actions, our sinfulness precludes it. Truly obedient actions are surely subsequent to an obedient, ie 'believing', heart.
Yes, the two are inseparable. A person cannot truly live well, turn away from sin, and live a life of obedience to God without belief. Similarly, there is no belief apart from obedience to what is believed.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
So if you assume obedience whenever belief is mentioned, as I think the gospels do, then I am with you all the way.
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif) Wayhay... Champers all round
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
I've been thinking about the metaphor of cleansing recently - e.g. "But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins." 2 Peter 1: 9
I realise that this fits with the CV medical model. However, I've been wondering about the substitutionary element to it.
The book of Hebrews (especially chapters 9 & 10) makes it clear that it is the blood of the sacrifice that brings cleansing.
I don't see how you can say this without:
a) seeing it as substitutionary.
b) wondering how it can be said to 'cleanse' without appealing to some kind of penal model. What other way is there to link it? I realise that (about 40 pages back ![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif) ) some reflected on the Passover and suggested that there is something 'magic' in the blood - but (ISTM) that unless you say what it is about the blood that cleanses, then 'magic' = I don't know.
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
I would like to go back a bit to the discussion we had about the Orthodox praying to God to restore us to the ancient beauty...
I think it was Barnabas, who mentioned that part from the funeral service... In my view this didn't imply original sin, with all the consequences this has for psa, but it spoke of our personal sin.
In the famous canon of St. Andrew of Crete, we read:
quote:
Having rivaled the first-created Adam by my transgression, I realize that I am stripped naked of God and of the everlasting kingdom and bliss through my sins.
Alas, wretched soul! Why are you like the first Eve? For you have wickedly looked and been bitterly wounded, and you have touched the tree and rashly tasted the forbidden food.
The place of bodily Eve has been taken for me by the Eve of my mind in the shape of a passionate thought in the flesh, showing me sweet things, yet ever making me taste and swallow bitter things.
Adam was rightly exiled from Eden for not keeping Thy one commandment, O Savior. But what shall I suffer who am always rejecting Thy living words?
I sin, not because of Adam, but because I became like Adam. The ancestral sin is not the cause for my sin, but I am on the same level with Adam.
It's not that I accept Christ's words, but because of Adam I cannot but be a sinner. It's because I do not accept Christ's words that I become like (or even worse than) Adam.
So, when we pray for the restoration to the ancient beauty, we do not have in mind original sin, but our own personal sin.
[ 07. August 2008, 22:30: Message edited by: §Andrew ]
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
Andrew wrote (among other things)
quote:
when we pray for the restoration to the ancient beauty, we do not have in mind original sin, but our own personal sin.
Shakespeare wrote in Romeos words:
"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
And I write:
Call it what you like it is sin , it taints you , it corrupts you and only Christ can make us clean from it!
(Sorry Andrew, just couldn't let you have the last word!)
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Andrew wrote (among other things)
quote:
when we pray for the restoration to the ancient beauty, we do not have in mind original sin, but our own personal sin.
Shakespeare wrote in Romeos words:
"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."
And I write:
Call it what you like it is sin , it taints you , it corrupts you and only Christ can make us clean from it!
(Sorry Andrew, just couldn't let you have the last word!)
Sorry, think it was Juliet who got the 'rose' line.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
I don't disagree Jamat... Please do note that I do not deny the reality of sin... What I do object to is a) thinking it's because of Adam and Eve and not because of ourselves and b) thinking that Christ cannot heal us, that we are justified without getting healed, justifying thus our fall and calling it OK.
It's those two things I object to, and NOT the reality of sin, NOR the salvation and healing Christ offers.
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
What I do object to is a) thinking it's because of Adam and Eve and not because of ourselves and b) thinking that Christ cannot heal us, that we are justified without getting healed, justifying thus our fall and calling it OK.
It's those two things I object to, and NOT the reality of sin, NOR the salvation and healing Christ offers.
It's great to see that after several thousand posts we've made such progress.
Those two things you object to:
1. Nobody has said that it is because of Adam and Eve and not because of ourselves.
Traditional Protestant thinking has always been that we are responsible for our own sin. (Whatever you think about OS, it never detracts away from human responsibility.)
2. Nobody has said that we are justified without getting healed. Again Reformed Protestants distinguish justification from sanctification but no one denies that they both come together as the part of the same package.
I do find it incredible after all this time that you are still attacking these grotesque caricatures.
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El Greco
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# 9313
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Posted
JohnnyS, from my point of view, saying that we have a natural inclination to sin, and that we cannot do good, does NOT mean that we are personally responsible for our sin. Now if you want to call that personal responsibility fine, but don't expect me to agree that that's not a grotesque theology.
Secondly, what about the "at the same time sinners and saints" stuff? What about we are fallen but we are saved? To me fallen=not saved period. There is no "both fallen and saved".
Unless you believe that "fallen but saved is nonsense" and "we are born unfallen and when/if we fall we fall because of our own personal choice" it's hard to see how I attack caricatures rather than your theology...
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
After all this time, this is quite incredible. Of course there are major differences between us - just not the ones you keep trotting out.
What is the problem? When we tell you that you are not correctly representing Protestant views do you not believe us? Are we just lying?
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
JohnnyS, from my point of view, saying that we have a natural inclination to sin, and that we cannot do good, does NOT mean that we are personally responsible for our sin.
You and Myrrh seem fixated with OS. Fine. Take issue with OS. (Even though it is a massive tangent to this thread.) However, what you have written above is not OS.
I've not come across anyone on the Ship who has ever said that OS means that we cannot do good.
OS teaches that even our best deeds are tainted by sin (e.g. pride) but it has never, ever meant that we cannot do good.
It also teaches, very clearly, that ever individual is responsible for their own sin.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
OS teaches that even our best deeds are tainted by sin (e.g. pride) but it has never, ever meant that we cannot do good.
Not to defend Andrew or Myrrh here, but you must admit that's pretty close to what Total Depravity teaches, and there are many people on "your" side who equate the two.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Myrrh
Shipmate
# 11483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
You and Myrrh seem fixated with OS. Fine. Take issue with OS. (Even though it is a massive tangent to this thread.) However, what you have written above is not OS.
I've not come across anyone on the Ship who has ever said that OS means that we cannot do good.
OS teaches that even our best deeds are tainted by sin (e.g. pride) but it has never, ever meant that we cannot do good.
It also teaches, very clearly, that ever individual is responsible for their own sin.
Exactly, that even our best deeds are tainted...
What the various Churches determined OS meant is on a sliding scale from 'even good works are the work of Satan without the grace from Christianity' to that. The whole theology from Augustine is based on man's sin nature, it does not admit of any real good inherently in man and this is how non-Christians are perceived by this doctrine.
Your 'very clearly teaches that man is responsible for his own sin' is just not in this teaching, that would come from the teaching of free will simple and can't be applied to a nature pre-determined to be deranged with OS and so isn't the base of RCC, Reformation, Calvin or Luther teachings which however much they nit-pick doctrine among themselves, and they do, all go back to inherent sin nature of man; making Christ a liar when He says we can bring both good and evil from ourselves.
http://www.theologicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/sin_parker.pdf
from which, cached introduction
(Original Sin A Study in Evangelical Theology David Parker)
I think what could be happening here is that what some from Western traditions would see as huge differences between the traditions we'd see as minute variations on the same theme and it's this basic theme which is the ground of the penal substitutionary atonement model.
Myrrh
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