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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Christus Victor
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Not to defend Andrew or Myrrh here,
Heaven forbid!
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
but you must admit that's pretty close to what Total Depravity teaches,
I'm admittin nuttin.
Google Total Depravity - you'll discover that even wiki doesn't define it like you do.
Think 'freedom to choose God' as the issue not 'ability to do any good deeds'.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
and there are many people on "your" side who equate the two.
I'm sure there may well be some wacko nutjobs out there but I have never heard OS or TP defined in the way you are across several continents of Protestant experience.
[ETA - of course, if you had a passport you'd know that.]
[ 09. September 2008, 03:54: Message edited by: Johnny S ]
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
Your 'very clearly teaches that man is responsible for his own sin' is just not in this teaching, that would come from the teaching of free will simple and can't be applied to a nature pre-determined to be deranged with OS and so isn't the base of RCC, Reformation, Calvin or Luther teachings which however much they nit-pick doctrine among themselves, and they do, all go back to inherent sin nature of man; making Christ a liar when He says we can bring both good and evil from ourselves.
You got me Myrrh.
You have uncovered the great Protestant deception. We lie to people about what we believe and then we get them into our cult we break the bad news to them.
The way we get them to stay is by promising to tell them who really shot JFK.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Well, JohnnyS, you've never experienced anything that I have, which I find very odd. I also find it odd that I keep trying to engage with you knowing that.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Myrrh
Shipmate
# 11483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
Your 'very clearly teaches that man is responsible for his own sin' is just not in this teaching, that would come from the teaching of free will simple and can't be applied to a nature pre-determined to be deranged with OS and so isn't the base of RCC, Reformation, Calvin or Luther teachings which however much they nit-pick doctrine among themselves, and they do, all go back to inherent sin nature of man; making Christ a liar when He says we can bring both good and evil from ourselves.
You got me Myrrh.
You have uncovered the great Protestant deception. We lie to people about what we believe and then we get them into our cult we break the bad news to them.
The way we get them to stay is by promising to tell them who really shot JFK.
Johnny, I thought the link I gave was to a good analysis of Evangelical beliefs about OS. It doesn't support your claims that we're referencing beliefs not held by Evangelicals.
Myrrh
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and thanks for all the fish
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
Johnny, I thought the link I gave was to a good analysis of Evangelical beliefs about OS. It doesn't support your claims that we're referencing beliefs not held by Evangelicals.
Here's a quote from the site you linked to:
quote:
From a biblical point of view, the universality of sin cannot be attributed to some external or physical characteristic (as some beliefs of gnostic of Manichean origin have it) for this would deny the doctrine of the creation of mankind in the divine image by suggesting that mankind is evil or defective per se. Rather, the fault must be a moral one, involving personal responsibility whereby each individual willingly consents to the inborn corruption and bias to sin and thereby actually sins.
The traditional formulation of the doctrine of original sin is intended to preserve this idea of personal involvement, for as Berkouwer notes, the church has always agreed that it ‘may not function and cannot function as a means of excusing ourselves or hiding behind another man’s guilt’.
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Well, JohnnyS, you've never experienced anything that I have, which I find very odd.
Is the wiki defintion of Total Depravity wrong then?
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Myrrh
Shipmate
# 11483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
Johnny, I thought the link I gave was to a good analysis of Evangelical beliefs about OS. It doesn't support your claims that we're referencing beliefs not held by Evangelicals.
Here's a quote from the site you linked to:
quote:
From a biblical point of view, the universality of sin cannot be attributed to some external or physical characteristic (as some beliefs of gnostic of Manichean origin have it) for this would deny the doctrine of the creation of mankind in the divine image by suggesting that mankind is evil or defective per se. Rather, the fault must be a moral one, involving personal responsibility whereby each individual willingly consents to the inborn corruption and bias to sin and thereby actually sins.
The traditional formulation of the doctrine of original sin is intended to preserve this idea of personal involvement, for as Berkouwer notes, the church has always agreed that it ‘may not function and cannot function as a means of excusing ourselves or hiding behind another man’s guilt’.
I'm not sure what point you're making here, the full quote below.
quote:
From a biblical point of view, the universality of sin cannot be attributed to some external or physical characteristic (as some beliefs of gnostic of Manichean origin have it) for this would deny the doctrine of the creation of mankind in the divine image by suggesting that mankind is evil or defective per se. Rather, the fault must be a moral one, involving personal responsibility whereby each individual willingly consents to the inborn corruption and bias to sin and thereby actually sins. The traditional formulation of the doctrine of original sin is intended to preserve this idea of personal involvement, for as Berkouwer notes, the church has always agreed that it ‘may not function and cannot function as a means of excusing ourselves or hiding behind another man’s guilt’.15Therefore, even in its simplest form, it differs from the Pelagian view, yet in so doing it becomes little more than an alternative term for the state of depravity.
Myrrh
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Myrrh
Shipmate
# 11483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Well, JohnnyS, you've never experienced anything that I have, which I find very odd.
Is the wiki defintion of Total Depravity wrong then?
quote:
Total depravity (also called total inability and total corruption) is a theological doctrine that derives from the Augustinian concepts of original sin. It is also advocated by many Protestant confessions of faith and catechisms, including those of Lutheranism,[1] Anglicanism and Methodism,[2] Arminianism, and Calvinism.[3] It is the teaching that, as a consequence of the Fall of Man, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin and, apart from the efficacious or prevenient grace of God, is utterly unable to choose to follow God or choose to accept salvation as it is freely offered.
Yes it's wrong...
quote:
Summary of the doctrine
Total depravity is the fallen state of man as a result of Original Sin. The doctrine of total depravity asserts that people are by nature not inclined to love God wholly with heart, mind, and strength, as God requires, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Even religion and philanthropy are destructive to the extent that these originate from a human imagination, passions, and will. Therefore, in Reformed Theology, God must predestine individuals into salvation since man is incapable of choosing God.[4]
Total depravity does not mean, however, that people are as evil as possible. Rather, it means that even the good which a person may intend is faulty in its premise, false in its motive, and weak in its implementation; and there is no mere refinement of natural capacities that can correct this condition. Thus, even acts of generosity and altruism are in fact egoist acts in disguise.[5]
Nonetheless, the doctrine teaches optimism concerning God's love for what he has made and God's ability to accomplish the ultimate good that he intends for his creation. In particular, in the process of salvation, God overcomes man's inability with his divine grace and enables men and women to choose to follow him, though the precise means of this overcoming varies between the theological systems. The differences between the solutions to the problem of total depravity revolve around the relation between divine grace and human free will – namely, whether it is efficacious grace that human free will cannot resist, as in Augustinism, or sufficient or prevenient grace enabling the human will to choose to follow God, as in Molinism and Arminianism.
And all because Augustine decided that man had lost God's grace...
What a strange world he created.
Myrrh
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and thanks for all the fish
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
The traditional formulation of the doctrine of original sin is intended to preserve this idea of personal involvement, for as Berkouwer notes, the church has always agreed that it ‘may not function and cannot function as a means of excusing ourselves or hiding behind another man’s guilt’
Your quote states explicitly that the traditional view of OS does not absolve any sense of personal responsibility. The point being discussed.
So your own quote directly contradicted you.
Do I need to draw pictures?
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
Johnny this is stupid. For the Orthodox what is natural is blameless. Which is why we can't be by nature tainted.
You can call meat fish, but you can't expect us to say it's OK if you eat meat on fasts just because you call it fish...
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by §Andrew:
Johnny this is stupid.
Agreed.
I'm not asking you to agree with me. I'm just asking you to state fairly and accurately those ideas you disagree with.
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Myrrh
Shipmate
# 11483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
The traditional formulation of the doctrine of original sin is intended to preserve this idea of personal involvement, for as Berkouwer notes, the church has always agreed that it ‘may not function and cannot function as a means of excusing ourselves or hiding behind another man’s guilt’
Your quote states explicitly that the traditional view of OS does not absolve any sense of personal responsibility. The point being discussed.
So your own quote directly contradicted you.
Do I need to draw pictures?
...it's saying personal involvement in original sin, therefore, personal depravity.
You do not have a doctrine of personal responsibility in real free will because you already begin with a doctrine that damns everybody by claiming it's their personal responsibility...
None of these Augustinian based Churches teach that we're born with free will, the ability to choose good or evil, and born in God's grace, and born innocent. There is no meeting of doctrines between us here. Through our doctrines Christ makes sense, I can't see your doctrines in any of Christ's teaching.
PSA added to this non-freewill, graceless, personally responsible damned existence in which God only predestines some he arbitrarily chooses for salvation has no need of free will in personal responsibility as we understand it, this is what you call Pelagian and all your doctrines are against it - I can't understand why you're presenting it as if it exists in your doctrines.
Myrrh
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
There is no meeting of doctrines between us here.
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif) I know that. I never said there was.
All I'm asking is that when you want to give Protestant thought a good kickin' that you tackle what we actually believe and not what you think we ought to believe.
The tension between God's sovereignty and human freewill is well documented in Prostestant thought. I know you think it is an inherent contradiction but many (if not all) streams of Protestant thinking are happy to live with the tension.
Just because you think that the logical outworking of our doctrine should be that mankind has no freewill does not make it so.
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Myrrh
Shipmate
# 11483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
There is no meeting of doctrines between us here.
I know that. I never said there was.
All I'm asking is that when you want to give Protestant thought a good kickin' that you tackle what we actually believe and not what you think we ought to believe.
The tension between God's sovereignty and human freewill is well documented in Prostestant thought. I know you think it is an inherent contradiction but many (if not all) streams of Protestant thinking are happy to live with the tension.
Just because you think that the logical outworking of our doctrine should be that mankind has no freewill does not make it so.
What tension? In the analysis of Evangelical thinking above the only tension is how to account for it without having to accept the Pelagian view: "Yet, biblical teaching and human experience will not allow the simple Pelagian solution of denying that mankind exists in a morally vitiated condition."
And here's the rub, Pelagius' argument here, as is ours, is that biblical teaching and human experience clearly show the error of this Evangelical doctrinal base. What else has been our arguments here?!
Evangelicals simply deny anything contradicting their base doctrine regardless of how much biblical teaching and human experience shows the contrary, tweaking how they can show personal responsibility for sin within that is not dealing with the problem and is no reply to the Pelagian and Orthodox and Jewish fact that you deny free will.
And so you have to dismiss Christ's and biblical teaching that some are and man can be actually really fully righteous because you cannot give up the doctrine that 'man is in a morally vitiated condition'.
It's your doctrine that creates 'all men are sinners'.
There's one thing to be aware of in the History section introduction - Augustine didn't form his doctrine as a reaction to Pelagius', Pelagius first heard about Augustine's doctrines and argued against OS because of its novel and illogical reasoning contrary to the simple teaching of the Church about man, that man had free will to choose as evidenced for example by being given the commandments.
How you've all been caught up in this idea of man in a morally vitiated condition is down to Augustine first creating it. All you've done since, and are still doing, is arguing among yourselves within that. And within that real free will to choose good or evil doesn't exist, the commandments are irrelevant in all your various doctrines.
Myrrh
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
And here's the rub, Pelagius' argument here, as is ours, is that biblical teaching and human experience clearly show the error of this Evangelical doctrinal base. What else has been our arguments here?!
Your arguments here have been to press forward your case from what you think the bible teaches and from your view of human experience ...
... and then when anybody disagrees with you, you put your fingers in your ears and shout loudly.
So I give in. You are far greater than all theologians since Augustine, the Prostestants are a schismatic heresy and the OC is the only true church.
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Myrrh
Shipmate
# 11483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
quote:
Originally posted by Myrrh:
And here's the rub, Pelagius' argument here, as is ours, is that biblical teaching and human experience clearly show the error of this Evangelical doctrinal base. What else has been our arguments here?!
Your arguments here have been to press forward your case from what you think the bible teaches and from your view of human experience ...
Of course, and from Christ's teaching and the understanding of the early Church that it's what we did that mattered and keeping the commandments would take us into life as Christ taught because we had free will to bring out of ourselves good or ill etc. etc. and yours just doesn't make any sense in this bog standard view of the Jews, the early Church, Pelagius, and Orthodox now who don't bring in Augustine's view..
quote:
... and then when anybody disagrees with you, you put your fingers in your ears and shout loudly.
Where have I done that? I duly noted your objection and completed the extract you chose and pointed out that it wasn't actually referring to free will* as we understand it, but is about putting personal responsibility into your original belief of human depravity. (*which all these variations are actually against as it is the simple solution 'Pelagian' you have rejected).
quote:
So I give in. You are far greater than all theologians since Augustine, the Prostestants are a schismatic heresy and the OC is the only true church.
That's a cop out Johnny, it was nonsense from others who've tried it and it's no less nonsensical here. I've raised points you don't want to answer, attacking me is no reply.
Myrrh
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and thanks for all the fish
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
The essentiasl issue is what is the gospel, what is the relevance of the Gospel and whether the Bible tells us the answers to those questions.
Christ IS the victor..no two ways about it. How though, does this make me the victor?
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
Dear Jamat:
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!
What have you done?
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
I was just thinking about a Best Thread nomination....hmmm...which thread, which thread...
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
The essentiasl issue is what is the gospel, what is the relevance of the Gospel and whether the Bible tells us the answers to those questions.
Yes, that's right. The Bible tells us the answers - if we can understand what it says.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Christ IS the victor..no two ways about it. How though, does this make me the victor?
We are not the victor. Christ is the only victor. He said:
quote:
John 16:33 "These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
Christ is the only victor, but still the Bible speaks as though we can also be victors:
quote:
Romans 12:21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.
1 John 2:14 I have written to you, young men, Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you, And you have overcome the wicked one.
It is clear, though, that we are not the victors, only God:
quote:
1 John 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
1 John 5:4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
This victory is about resisting evil and doing good, or about turning away from everything that destroys love to God and the neighbor. The Bible is effusive about the benefits of this victory - which is Christ's victory:
quote:
Revelation 2:7 “To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.”’
Revelation 2:11 “He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.”’
Revelation 2:17 “To him who overcomes I will give some of the hidden manna to eat. And I will give him a white stone, and on the stone a new name written which no one knows except him who receives it.”’
Revelation 2:26 And he who overcomes, and keeps My works until the end, to him I will give power over the nations—
Revelation 3:5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Revelation 3:12 He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall go out no more. I will write on him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God. And I will write on him My new name.
Revelation 3:21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
Revelation 21:7 He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
The victory is about turning away from evil and doing God's will:
quote:
Revelation 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
How does Christ's victory make it possible for each person to do this? - First, His victory subdued hell so that it is no longer so powerful that it can't be resisted. People are free to do as they wish, whether good or evil.
- Second, His victory made Him perpetually visible to us in the pages of the Word of God. His teachings there speak to us and guide us, enabling us to know and do His will. He is actually present there in His teachings, and fights against evil in us. So anyone who hears and obeys His Word has the power, from Him, to overcome evil.
His power is in the truth. People don't seem to appreciate the connection between truth and power, but Jesus was very clear about it.
Love is the real source, but truth is how it works.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Seeker963:
Dear Jamat:
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!
What have you done?
Happy New Year ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
QUOTE]How does Christ's victory make it possible for each person to do this? - First, His victory subdued hell so that it is no longer so powerful that it can't be resisted. People are free to do as they wish, whether good or evil.
- Second, His victory made Him perpetually visible to us in the pages of the Word of God. His teachings there speak to us and guide us, enabling us to know and do His will. He is actually present there in His teachings, and fights against evil in us. So anyone who hears and obeys His Word has the power, from Him, to overcome evil.
His power is in the truth. People don't seem to appreciate the connection between truth and power, but Jesus was very clear about it.
Love is the real source, but truth is how it works. [/QB]
Hi Freddy,
Happy new year!
I agree with everything you say.
Could I add though that the text "As he was, so are we in this world." (1 John I think) implies that we have a kind of victory that is from within. A nature change as it were along the lines of Gal 2:20 "If any man be in Christ he is a new creature. Old things are passed away, behold all things become new."
It is really hard to find a life that exemplifies Christ's victory in this way.
If we measure Christ's victory by this criterion, are any of us Christians? (Don't be provoked, the question is a wind up.)
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Could I add though that the text "As he was, so are we in this world." (1 John I think) implies that we have a kind of victory that is from within. A nature change as it were along the lines of Gal 2:20 "If any man be in Christ he is a new creature. Old things are passed away, behold all things become new."
I agree. That's being born again.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
It is really hard to find a life that exemplifies Christ's victory in this way.
If we measure Christ's victory by this criterion, are any of us Christians? (Don't be provoked, the question is a wind up.)
Christianity has not done well so far. That's why Jesus said He would come again.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jamat:
[qb] Could I add though that the text "As he was, so are we in this world." (1 John I think) implies that we have a kind of victory that is from within. A nature change as it were along the lines of Gal 2:20 "If any man be in Christ he is a new creature. Old things are passed away, behold all things become new."
I agree. That's being born again.
quote:
The issue though Freddy, is what exactly IS being "Born Again". The quote below is something I wrote earlier with a few alterations. The issue though is (for me) how the change that occurs when one accepts Christ, enables a transformation of motive. It is transformation,which for me, is what ultimately 'proves' that Christ is the 'victor'.
[QUOTE] You are indeed saved by grace through faith but your faith is in the efficacy of his blood as an atoning sacrifice. (Ro 5: 9 and 3:25). Grace is based in faith that Christ has died for you and his death involved shedding of blood, taking of life and you are hereby set free from both your sins and your sinfulness because God accepts the life of Christ in your place. He has punished himself instead of you but not only has he done this, the resurrection of Christ also includes us in his likeness. Wonderful! I can now live free of the shackles of sin that held me before. Why don't I always? Well I'm stupid enough to still seek the comfort of old ways on occasion thus requiring a continual renewal of forgiveness which because of God's great love and mercy, is always available.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
The issue though Freddy, is what exactly IS being "Born Again".
To be born again is to have a new will given to you by God. This new will is implanted by God in the part of your mind that learns and understands. It is a new heart based on what you have learned and practised. When you act according to Jesus' words He builds that new person within you because He is the truth and He is present in you in that truth.
This new will is not given all at once, but comes gradually as you refrain from evil and do what the Lord teaches.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
The issue though is (for me) how the change that occurs when one accepts Christ, enables a transformation of motive. It is transformation,which for me, is what ultimately 'proves' that Christ is the 'victor'.
The change does not occur when you accept Christ but when you hear and do, as He says. The motive does not change until you act.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
You are indeed saved by grace through faith but your faith is in the efficacy of his blood as an atoning sacrifice. (Ro 5: 9 and 3:25).
This is an idea that comes directly from hell. It is wicked to think that God could be satisfied by a blood atonement.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Grace is based in faith that Christ has died for you and his death involved shedding of blood, taking of life and you are hereby set free from both your sins and your sinfulness because God accepts the life of Christ in your place.
This is an idea that comes directly from hell. It is wicked to think that God could be satisfied by a blood atonement.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Wonderful! I can now live free of the shackles of sin that held me before. Why don't I always? Well I'm stupid enough to still seek the comfort of old ways on occasion thus requiring a continual renewal of forgiveness which because of God's great love and mercy, is always available.
This is pure horse manure.
As long as you still seek the comfort of old ways you are not reborn.
The mistake is in thinking that this must come all at once. All change happens gradually, with steps forward and backsliding. But you are reborn only to the extent that you actually intend and do what God teaches.
No one is perfect, so the question is simply how far you have come on the road towards loving God and the neighbor and turning away from sin. The farther you have come the happier you are.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
Hi Freddy,
Regarding your horse manure comment, could I perhaps direct you to the last few verses of 1Pet :2. I'd be interested in your take on them.
Thank you for once again being willing to plough old ground.
Incidentally I mean the Happy new year comment.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Regarding your horse manure comment, could I perhaps direct you to the last few verses of 1Pet :2. I'd be interested in your take on them.
The horse manure is about thinking that you are reborn even though you seek comfort in old ways.
Rebirth is about changing your ways. If the ways don't change the rebirth hasn't happened.
But as I said, it happens little by little.
Is this your reference?
quote:
I Peter 2:23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
My take on this is that Christ bore our sins by taking on the power of hell, bearing all the sins of the human race, and overcame that power by His almighty power. By His suffering, that is, by His stripes, that is, by His efforts, He won the victory. Now hell has been subdued so that it no longer has the power that it once did.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Incidentally I mean the Happy new year comment.
Yes, Happy New Year. Was it 2009 in New Zealand when you wrote it?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Regarding your horse manure comment, could I perhaps direct you to the last few verses of 1Pet :2. I'd be interested in your take on them.
The horse manure is about thinking that you are reborn even though you seek comfort in old ways.
Rebirth is about changing your ways. If the ways don't change the rebirth hasn't happened.
But as I said, it happens little by little.
Is this your reference?
quote:
I Peter 2:23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
My take on this is that Christ bore our sins by taking on the power of hell, bearing all the sins of the human race, and overcame that power by His almighty power. By His suffering, that is, by His stripes, that is, by His efforts, He won the victory. Now hell has been subdued so that it no longer has the power that it once did.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Incidentally I mean the Happy new year comment.
Yes, Happy New Year. Was it 2009 in New Zealand when you wrote it?
It was New Year actually. People paid good money to see the millenium in a few years ago. Apparently NZ is the first place to see the sun. Want to move here? Quite warm ATM.
Regarding 1 Pet 2:, v21 states that he suffered and the following verse quotes that he committed no sin. Ergo, he suffered vicariously for our sins. The nub of the argument as I see it is whether his suffering was God's punishment for sin falling upon a guiltless sufferer in order to free those who are truly guilty, viz you and me. This is what I believe, and you think is an aberration from the pit of hell.
Thie thing is Freddy, I don't believe I ever made spiritual progress till I realised this.
Now though I don't disagree at all with your summation, I'd add that the victory over sin and hell is effected in the victory over the human sinful nature. It became theoretically possible to be free from sin, the law and the devil only after the cross. 1 Pet:1 and 2 seem to exegete the meaning of 'born-again-ness' if you connect 1 Pet 1:3 with 1:18-19 with 1 Pet 2:21-25.
I suppose, too that one must define 'free' in this context. I totally understand we must decide to follow Christ but having decided God now works within our nature to help us want to live right. The old 'show me your faith by your works' argument of James. Which is where I see you coming from.
My point is that there is a supernatural component in the life of faith or it is really only a life of works.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
It was New Year actually.
Wow. New Years was a full 24 hours away for us here on the U.S. east coast. Wouldn't that make Hawaii more than 24 hours behind you?
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Regarding 1 Pet 2:, v21 states that he suffered and the following verse quotes that he committed no sin. Ergo, he suffered vicariously for our sins.
I agree that He suffered and that He committed no sin. It doesn't follow that He suffered vicariously. Instead I believe that He suffered in His conflicts with hell - conflicts in which He overcame their power.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
The nub of the argument as I see it is whether his suffering was God's punishment for sin falling upon a guiltless sufferer in order to free those who are truly guilty, viz you and me. This is what I believe, and you think is an aberration from the pit of hell.
Yes, it is an aberration from the pit of hell. The reason is that it makes God into a monster who unfairly punishes His Son, it makes God the source of all suffering, and its ramifications separate faith from life in a way that encourages a wicked life.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Thie thing is Freddy, I don't believe I ever made spiritual progress till I realised this.
You don't think that it is arrogant and prideful to claim spiritual progress?
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
I totally understand we must decide to follow Christ but having decided God now works within our nature to help us want to live right. The old 'show me your faith by your works' argument of James. Which is where I see you coming from.
You seem perpetually unaware of what Christ taught. Have you never read the Gospels?
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
My point is that there is a supernatural component in the life of faith or it is really only a life of works.
Yes, there is a supernatural component. It works like this: We seem to ourselves to have the power to change our behavior, but not to change our inner desires. God is the only one who truly has this power to change our behavior, but He lets us feel that it is our own. Our task is therefore to use this power to change our behavior, and God will change what is in our hearts. It isn't about works or merit, but about obedience to God, as Jesus said.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
A rose by any othe name would smell as sweet?
I wonder at your view of Christ's teaching is all. I do read the gospels. The problem is the old one of how his death explains his life. IMV one needs not to separate them.
Do you not find it strange that so many believers over the years have understood as God's revelation something you consider from the pit of Hell? What do you make of Peter's exegesis of 'born-again-ness"?
Spiritual progress isn't spiritual perfection. Is it arrogant to claim one's life has been changed by God?
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
I wonder at your view of Christ's teaching is all. I do read the gospels.
I am perfectly happy with the rest of the New Testament. I only object to ignoring Christ's teachings.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
The problem is the old one of how his death explains his life. IMV one needs not to separate them.
I agree that they need not be separated. So when you quote Peter or Paul you need to also take Christ's words into account.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Do you not find it strange that so many believers over the years have understood as God's revelation something you consider from the pit of Hell?
In my opinion PSA has devastated Christianity.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
What do you make of Peter's exegesis of 'born-again-ness"?
I believe that I am fine with what Peter says.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Spiritual progress isn't spiritual perfection. Is it arrogant to claim one's life has been changed by God?
It is arrogant to claim salvation. It is not arrogant to acknowledge that God has helped you and changed your life. My objection is to the idea that you can make spiritual progress by faith alone without actually turning away from sin. I understand that there is the old question of which comes first.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
Well, if you are fine with what Peter says then you believe that coming to faith is a radical new beginning (1Pet1:3)which is made possible because of the resurrection (1Pet1:3) and the death of Christ as of an unblemished lamb signalled by the shedding of blood (1Pet1:19).
This us unpacked as the sacrificial offering of an innocent sacrifice that was seen by God as being of such value that it was efficacious for the remission of sin not for just one but for all who will believe. This locks into the promise of Christ's words in John's gospel in John 5:24 "He who hears my words and believes on him who sent me has eternal life."
The mechanism is further unpacked in 1Pet 2:21-25 which emphasises Christ's suffering which is beneficial as an example but also as a substitutionary template. Viz, he BORE our sins in order to effect the transformation in us resulting in our death to sin and opening the possibility of a righteous life.
Thus Peter confirms that the new birth is defined as a transformational possibility offered to all on the basis of Christ's redeeming blood. Salvation is assured to those who accept the offer and furthermore they can also be holy in the here and now not just the hereafter.
Peter, who may well have been present at the conversation with Nicodemas in John 3, creates a basis for the way the Holy Spirit comes upon those who are 'born' of God. The writings of the apostles are corollaries to support the words of the Saviour.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Well, if you are fine with what Peter says then you believe that coming to faith is a radical new beginning (1Pet1:3)
Of course, as long as faith is not defined as somehow separate from obedience.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
which is made possible because of the resurrection (1Pet1:3)
Yes.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
and the death of Christ as of an unblemished lamb signalled by the shedding of blood (1Pet1:19).
I'm not denying the frequent comparison of Christ's death to the Old Testament sacrifices. They did in fact represent what Christ came to do, seen even as far back as God's curse on the serpent in Genesis.
But the sacrifices actually represented Christ's work in that He willingly subordinated the physical to the divine and that He offered pure love to God. These are the two things that all of the sacrifices stood for.
The "blood" mentioned so frequently refers not to any kind of payment but to the truth that He came to bear witness to, by which He overcame the power of hell. This is why we must drink His blood, and why the blood washes us from sin. If you don't understand this you miss the way that the term is used in many places in the Bible.
This truth can only come from Jesus as an unblemished lamb, whose qualities of innocence and perfect righteousness perfectly communicate God's will to us.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
This us unpacked as the sacrificial offering of an innocent sacrifice that was seen by God as being of such value that it was efficacious for the remission of sin not for just one but for all who will believe.
This makes God the source of our troubles. God is trying to save us from our troubles. A God that is literally appeased by literal blood is a monster.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
This locks into the promise of Christ's words in John's gospel in John 5:24 "He who hears my words and believes on him who sent me has eternal life."
Thank you for quoting Jesus, but why ignore His other statements which seem to contradict the idea that belief is what saves? It should be clear that whenever Christ speaks of belief He also means obedience to what is believed.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
The mechanism is further unpacked in 1Pet 2:21-25 which emphasises Christ's suffering which is beneficial as an example but also as a substitutionary template.
I commented on I Peter 2:21-25 just above. It doesn't mean what you think it means.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Viz, he BORE our sins in order to effect the transformation in us resulting in our death to sin and opening the possibility of a righteous life.
You misunderstand the meaning of "bearing" our sins. I understand it to mean that He took them on and overcame them by taking on our weak humanity through His birth into the world. Through this He was able to suffer temptation and to overcome the power of hell that is the source of all temptation and suffering.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Thus Peter confirms that the new birth is defined as a transformational possibility offered to all on the basis of Christ's redeeming blood.
Yes, Christ taught the truth and this enables every person to hear and obey, and be transformed.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Salvation is assured to those who accept the offer and furthermore they can also be holy in the here and now not just the hereafter.
Yes, if you believe and obey Christ's words you will become a better person and live a happier life both now and in the hereafter. But only if you really do become a person who lives by what Christ teaches.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Jamat, would you say that this depiction of Delmer's redemption at the end of this entertaining clip from the film "O Brother Where Art Thou" accurately describes your theology?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Tangent Alert: Going back to the comment about "when was New Year?", Freddy, I think you'll find that the times on the posts are usually set by the Ship as GMT or some such - English time, rather than by the hour/day of the place you are in. Thus, Jamat's 06:14 would be quite late in his day, but only just into New Yer's day in your time, and not yet into NYD in Hawaii.
Sorry to be vague, but I'm not sure if England now runs on GMT or an hour earlier for commonality with most of Europe.
Tangent off.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
You misunderstand the meaning of "bearing" our sins. I understand it to mean that He took them on and overcame them by taking on our weak humanity through His birth into the world. Through this He was able to suffer temptation and to overcome the power of hell that is the source of all temptation and suffering.
No Freddy,it means what it says. Your exegesis continually begs the question of how his taking on our sins overcomes hell's power. You also confuse his birth with his death. I prefer my 'monster' God.
"My God my God why have you forsaken me?" Mk 15:34
Consider why God needed to turn his face from the saviour on the cross. It was because for those dreadful hours he was bearing the sin of you and me. This monster God has now set me free from sin's power. He has broken the hold of the devil over my life and yours. If you care to accept what the monster has done for you you can be truly free. I'd suggest that the blood atonement is repulsive only to those who refuse to humble their minds to accept what Paul calls the foolishness of the Gospel which is also the wisdom of God. Have a look at 1Cor1:24,5 and 2Cor5:21. "He made him who knew no sin to BE sin on our behalf."
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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infinite_monkey
Shipmate
# 11333
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Posted
So many arguments have been done and redone so many times on this thread that I don't remember if we've yet gone the Structure of Scientific Revolutions route and noted that this discussion is doomed to futility due to paradigmatic differences.
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His light was lifted just above the Law,
And now we have to live with what we did with what we saw.
--Dar Williams, And a God Descended
Obligatory Blog Flog: www.otherteacher.wordpress.com
Posts: 1423 | From: left coast united states | Registered: Apr 2006
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
So many arguments have been done and redone so many times on this thread that I don't remember if we've yet gone the Structure of Scientific Revolutions route and noted that this discussion is doomed to futility due to paradigmatic differences.
I think that we have spent at least some time on Kuhn's work of genius. Maybe it was another thread. I agree that it pretty much describes the perpetual impasse of this thread. The paradigms are too divergent to be resolvable.
At the same time, the commonality on this thread is the authority of Scripture. The discussion is meaningless without it since there is no other way to discuss or even think about this issue. This is what keeps it interesting for me.
So to my mind the discussion is a simple matter of seeing the consistent message of Scripture, and of correcting our mistaken views by demonstrating what that message is.
Obviously I and others are not having much luck - probably because of conflicting paradigms surrounding the understanding of Scripture.
Still, I think that it is fun to do, as long as others are willing to play. And who knows, I am sure there are plenty of things in Scripture that I am missing.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
You misunderstand the meaning of "bearing" our sins. I understand it to mean that He took them on and overcame them by taking on our weak humanity through His birth into the world. Through this He was able to suffer temptation and to overcome the power of hell that is the source of all temptation and suffering.
No Freddy, it means what it says. Your exegesis continually begs the question of how his taking on our sins overcomes hell's power.
I think you mean that it raises the question. Begging the question means that my argument is circular, which I don't think you are saying.
Let me explain my understanding of the question of how his taking on our sins overcomes hell's power. The way that I understand that Christ took on our sins and overcame the power hell is that by being born into the world of a human mother He took on our weak humanity.
Those weaknesses made Him succeptible to the influence of hell, or made it possible for hell to approach Him.
That is, by having a human body and mind He had human sensation and thought, and was therefore subject to all the impulses that the body and mind normally generate - tiredness, hunger, the desire for self-preservation, and countless others. These are often mentioned in Scripture.
These normal and natural impulses are the devil's playground, that is, they are what make evil attractive. By focusing on and elevating the importance of these impulses the devil drives everyone towards a life of sin. It is normal to hunger and to seek food, but it is sinful to make food your all-consuming goal in life, to take other people's food, etc. Every form of evil begins from harmless and normal natural impulses.
Every person throughout life resists some impulses and gives in to others, building up habits and patterns of behavior. Whatever you resist becomes weaker. Whatever you actually do becomes stronger.
Jesus resisted every impulse from hell, He fought against every evil desire and thought. He did this by the power of the Word within Him. The effect of this was to actually break and weaken the power of the devils and demons who approached Him. We ourselves have no power to do this except from God. Since Jesus is God He did this from His own power, and its effect was enormously greater.
By doing this throughout His lifetime, and especially on the cross, He reduced hell's power and put it in its place. Hell still has power, but He restored the equilibrium between heaven and hell. This set us free to do as we wish, whether good or evil, since we are between these two forces.
This is what I mean that Jesus took on our sins, and how this overcame hell's power.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
You also confuse his birth with his death. I prefer my 'monster' God.
What do you mean "confuse His birth with His death"?
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
"My God my God why have you forsaken me?" Mk 15:34
Consider why God needed to turn his face from the saviour on the cross. It was because for those dreadful hours he was bearing the sin of you and me. This monster God has now set me free from sin's power. He has broken the hold of the devil over my life and yours.
This is a repulsive doctrine. God did not turn His face from the Savior. Instead, Jesus was suffering the torment involved in letting go of His physical life and in overcoming the appearance that humanity, who He loved ardently, was too wicked to be saved. This pain made Him feel alone and bereft, and He quoted Scripture to that effect - Scripture that also contains the answer to His cries.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
If you care to accept what the monster has done for you you can be truly free. I'd suggest that the blood atonement is repulsive only to those who refuse to humble their minds to accept what Paul calls the foolishness of the Gospel which is also the wisdom of God. Have a look at 1Cor1:24,5 and 2Cor5:21. "He made him who knew no sin to BE sin on our behalf."
Hmmm. Let's see:
quote:
I Corinthians 1:24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.
No argument there. Our wisdom is nothing compared to His.
quote:
2 Corinthians 5:21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.
I think that it's a question of how you understand this one.
I can see that you are saying that God held Jesus as a sinner so that He could take the punishment. This is a monstrous and wicked view, in my opinion, as I have said.
My understanding of this passage, following from what I said above, is that Jesus became sin by taking on our sinful humanity by being born of a human mother. He then overcame that sinful humanity by His own power. He knew no sin because He overcame in every temptation.
We "become the righteousness of God in Him", or through Him, because it is this same power that overcomes evil within every one of us. That is, we are able to resist the impulse to do evil because His strength reduces the power of evil influences and the power of His Word makes us able to obey His teaching - if we are willing.
As I see it the idea that God overcomes evil and helps us to overcome evil is not only intuitively right, it is what the Scriptures teach.
By comparison the idea that God must punish and will punish His Son in our place is only biblical according to a very few misunderstood passages - which have much better explanations. It makes God a monster, it condemns all who are not Christian, and it makes the difference between a good life and a wicked life meaningless.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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infinite_monkey
Shipmate
# 11333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Freddy:
quote:
Originally posted by infinite_monkey:
So many arguments have been done and redone so many times on this thread that I don't remember if we've yet gone the Structure of Scientific Revolutions route and noted that this discussion is doomed to futility due to paradigmatic differences.
... I agree that it pretty much describes the perpetual impasse of this thread. The paradigms are too divergent to be resolvable.
...
Still, I think that it is fun to do, as long as others are willing to play.
Makes good sense. My nose was where it don't belong on that post--carry on.
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His light was lifted just above the Law,
And now we have to live with what we did with what we saw.
--Dar Williams, And a God Descended
Obligatory Blog Flog: www.otherteacher.wordpress.com
Posts: 1423 | From: left coast united states | Registered: Apr 2006
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Not at all, IM. I think the history of this thread shows that you are probably right.
We are obviously doing this just to entertain ourselves, not because we are getting anywhere.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
As I read your analysis Freddie, It appears that all Jesus achieved was by his birth and life. If you are right, he could have died any way other than the cross and achieved the same end or even not died at all.
Your view necessarily must deny the import of what is the power of God and the wisdom of God...viz Christ crucified as a sacrifice, an innocent victim who willingly submitted himself to the cross at the behest of the Father as a substitute for your sin and mine. Your view to me is analogous to that of the Sadducees who deny the ressurrection,(although I'm not saying you do that,) in that, as Jesus said to them, "You do greatly err knowing neither the scriptures or the power of God."
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
As I read your analysis Freddie, It appears that all Jesus achieved was by his birth and life. If you are right, he could have died any way other than the cross and achieved the same end or even not died at all.
Not at all. Many passages testify to the necessity of Jesus' rejection and death. His death was essential to what He acheived.
During His life He overcame the power of hell by resisting its influence made possible by His birth on earth to a human mother. In death He also overcame the hells that were attached to the desire for life itself that is basic to all living things. This was His sacrifice, which is also why He says that "whoever loses His life for My sake shall find it." We are to love the life of the spirit more than the life of the body.
Another aspect to this was that it was necessary that He be rejected. In the gospels Jesus repeats this many times. It was necessary because the people had rejected the truth, they had rejected God, they had rejected the Word of God, and so they rejected the Word made flesh.
This is part of Christ coming at the darkest hour. But after the night the morning comes, which is His resurrection.
So yes, it was necessary that He suffer and die, and that He be rejected. But not as a payment for sin, nor as a sacrificial payment, but as self-sacrifice in the battle of the spiritual over the material, of heaven over the world. Jesus "overcame the world" meaning that He rose above the materialistic desires where the devil has his power with each one of us.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
yes, it was necessary that He suffer and die, and that He be rejected. But not as a payment for sin, nor as a sacrificial payment, but as self-sacrifice in the battle of the spiritual over the material, of heaven over the world. Jesus "overcame the world" meaning that He rose above the materialistic desires where the devil has his power with each one of us.
So how can you possibly reconcile this with Romans 3:25? Christ was publicly displayed by God as a propitiation (for sin) in his blood through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness (God's righteousness)
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
So how can you possibly reconcile this with Romans 3:25? Christ was publicly displayed by God as a propitiation (for sin) in his blood through faith. This was to demonstrate his righteousness (God's righteousness)
I think that you are so stuck in your traditional way of seeing it that you are missing Paul's message.
Here is Romans 3:25 with some context:
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Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
As I understand it you are saying that the meaning here is that God laid the punishment on Jesus, as a propitiating sacrifice, to demonstrate His righteousness. So all who believe in Jesus are justified.
Passing over whether that actually makes any sense or not, I think that this is not the best way to read Paul's statement.
Let me take it line by line:
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Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets,
By "righteousness apart from the law" Paul means that God's righteousness is not about whether people are circumcized, or whether they offer sacrifices, or whether they eat unclean things, engage in ritual washings, or observe the Sabbath in the traditional way. He is saying that this is confirmed by the Law and the Prophets since they clearly show that what the Lord requires is, for example, "to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God" (Micah 6).
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22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe.
That is, this is the righteousness that Jesus Christ teaches, so it is important to believe in Him and do as He teaches.
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For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
That is, whether you are a keeper of the traditional law of circumcision, sacrifices, and ritual purity or not it doesn't matter. Everyone is impure and is in need of God's mercy.
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24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,
That is, the Lord came into the world to free the world from the clutches of hell by fighting against it and overcoming it. This was a work of pure divine mercy, which is God's love directed towards the human race. This is how He saved us and continues to save us.
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25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness,
The word translated "propitiation" here is literally "mercy seat". The meaning is that the Lord came into the world and willed to give all that He had for the sake of the human race out of pure mercy. His "blood" refers specifically to the truth by which He fought against falsity, but it also means His life which He sacrificed for our sakes. That is, He chose spiritual life over natural life, defeating the forces of hell that consider physical life the only real life.
This work of overcoming hell demonstrated God's righteousness.
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because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
That is, this is how God forgives humanity of its sins. His work of redemption enables us to change our ways if we can trust in His Word and keep it in our lives. This is His work of forgiveness. If we follow Him we are able to receive the forgiveness that God freely offers. He "passes over" our previously committed sins.
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26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
That is, if we accept and put our trust in Jesus Christ we can change our ways and be saved from our evils. This is how God in His mercy is changing the human race, which demonstrates His righteousness.
That is how I reconcile what I said above with Romans 3:25. I think that you are so stuck in your traditional way of seeing it that you are missing Paul's message.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Jamat
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Posted
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25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness,
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The word translated "propitiation" here is literally "mercy seat". The meaning is that the Lord came into the world and willed to give all that He had for the sake of the human race out of pure mercy. His "blood" refers specifically to the truth by which He fought against falsity, but it also means His life which He sacrificed for our sakes. That is, He chose spiritual life over natural life, defeating the forces of hell that consider physical life the only real life.
This work of overcoming hell demonstrated God's righteousness.
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because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed,
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That is, this is how God forgives humanity of its sins. His work of redemption enables us to change our ways if we can trust in His Word and keep it in our lives. This is His work of forgiveness. If we follow Him we are able to receive the forgiveness that God freely offers. He "passes over" our previously committed sins.
That is rich Freddy. Who is stuck in their tradition?
The verse clearly suggests God's need to judge sin. He had in the past been able to delay this using animal sacrifices as temporary cover when offered in faith. But this was because he was looking forward to the cross when sin would be dealt with and judged once and for all in Christ. This is, in fact, how God forgives humanity of its sins. Christ received the wrath of God, had sin laid on him and was delivered into Satan's hands. However, because he was, in fact, sinless, Satan could not hold him in thrall of death and so He rose. God thus judged sin in him and at the same time delivered him once and for all from sin and death. But not only him also all of us who believe in him. This is a transforming and powerful Gospel Freddy, it is not a sad little Gospel of trying vainly to follow Christ's example and be holy in our own strength.
This might not be the Swedenbogian version, but is is certainly the Pauline version.
I note the way you deal with the blood sacrifice is allegorical. This is demanded by your theology perhaps but to me it strains the text. His blood refers to the requirement of a life as the price of an atonement. Note how Hebrews speaks about almost all things needing to be cleansed by blood sacrifice. The error of any other understanding is the fact that the terrible cost of sin is not understood and consequently the marvellous atonement of Christ is totally underestimated as I have said before. If you don't get this, you don't get the Gospel since the authority of Christ and the assurance and authority of our vicarious position in him is all tied up in it. Sorry, if this seems judgemental to you. It is my line in the sand. Also, Don't talk about my tradition; look to your own. You have to mutilate all sorts of scripture to make your horse run. Essentially, you have to save yourself since that is what you call 'following' him. IMV we none of us can do that without the initial transforming revelation of what he has done for us.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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Freddy
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
The verse clearly suggests God's need to judge sin.
Yes, the question is how this is done. You seem to have a mental image of a very powerful king who looks at what people do and assigns a punishment. Do you really think that this is how god works?
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Originally posted by Jamat:
He had in the past been able to delay this using animal sacrifices as temporary cover when offered in faith.
Can't you hear how stupid this sounds? What kind of God would do that? Your God is a monster.
Besides, Jesus said:
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Matthew 9:13 ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice.’
God never desired sacrifice. He accepted it as a symbolic offering and ritual because it was a common cultural practice. In itself it is gruesome and horrible.
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Originally posted by Jamat:
But this was because he was looking forward to the cross when sin would be dealt with and judged once and for all in Christ. This is, in fact, how God forgives humanity of its sins. Christ received the wrath of God, had sin laid on him and was delivered into Satan's hands.
Your God is a monster. What kind of Father would do this?
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
However, because he was, in fact, sinless, Satan could not hold him in thrall of death and so He rose. God thus judged sin in him and at the same time delivered him once and for all from sin and death.
That makes no sense at all.
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Originally posted by Jamat:
But not only him also all of us who believe in him.
That makes no sense either.
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Originally posted by Jamat:
This is a transforming and powerful Gospel Freddy, it is not a sad little Gospel of trying vainly to follow Christ's example and be holy in our own strength.
Then why does the Bible everywhere tell that the wicked will perish and the righteous will be saved?
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
I note the way you deal with the blood sacrifice is allegorical. This is demanded by your theology perhaps but to me it strains the text. His blood refers to the requirement of a life as the price of an atonement.
Blood unquestionably has symbolic meaning in the Bible. We drink it, we are washed in it. The only question is what the symbolism is about. I submit that the blood is Christ's life and His truth - this is where the power is.
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Originally posted by Jamat:
Note how Hebrews speaks about almost all things needing to be cleansed by blood sacrifice.
Hebrews is referring to the symbolic cleansing represented by the sacrifices. Nothing is literally cleansed by blood.
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Originally posted by Jamat:
The error of any other understanding is the fact that the terrible cost of sin is not understood and consequently the marvellous atonement of Christ is totally underestimated as I have said before. If you don't get this, you don't get the Gospel since the authority of Christ and the assurance and authority of our vicarious position in him is all tied up in it.
Just the opposite. Believing your sins are wiped out by a price paid to an angry God takes away any real fidelity to the gospel message. It allows you to ignore virtually everything Christ says in the assurance of your own salvation.
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Originally posted by Jamat:
It is my line in the sand. Also, Don't talk about my tradition; look to your own. You have to mutilate all sorts of scripture to make your horse run.
Then why don't you ever quote anyone but Paul? I would say it is because you mutilate Christ's message. I would challenge you to find even ten quotes from the gospels that support what you are saying.
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Originally posted by Jamat:
Essentially, you have to save yourself since that is what you call 'following' him.
No, we are saved by Christ if we believe in Him and obey Him, as He tells us to do.
[ 21. January 2009, 11:22: Message edited by: Freddy ]
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jamat
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
He had in the past been able to delay this using animal sacrifices as temporary cover when offered in faith.
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Can't you hear how stupid this sounds? What kind of God would do that? Your God is a monster
A monster who took the only possible solution to my sin. he found a way to not judge me for it by judging himself for it.
This is the clear sense of scripture and follows mainstream evangelical theology.
However Freddy, you choose to judge this interpretation of unworthy of consideration. To me it simply illustrates thatgod's wisdom is man's folly.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
A monster who took the only possible solution to my sin. he found a way to not judge me for it by judging himself for it.
It's a monstrous solution.
The reason that it is so hideous is that it not only portrays God as wicked and vengeful, it promotes a solution to the dilemma that His wickedness poses that doesn't even address the root of the problem - human evil.
Rather than posing a solution that makes people better, and averting God's wrath that way, PSA posits a "solution" that somehow averts God's anger without necessitating that change.
Oh yes, and then it is claimed that the change then happens after the anger has been satiated.
No religion can exist without a good God.
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
This is the clear sense of scripture and follows mainstream evangelical theology.
If it is the clear sense of Scripture could you provide me ten quotes from the Gospels that suggest it? Surely it can't be that hard.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jamat
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Posted
For the sake of 10 good men Sodom is saved?
You well know that the Gospel was crystalised through the Pauline revelation and that he based his teaching of the atonement on the death and resurrection of the Christ. You also know that revelation is progressive. Christ himself could not clarify the atonement before he died, it was inexplicable and incomprehensible to his audience who grasped it only in retrospect. The Scriptures are holistic. The epistles are no less God's revelation than the Gospels or the OT.
The following references are nevertheless consistent with my view.
Matt 16:22,23. It is in God's interest that he be killed and raised up.
Matt 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Mk 15:34 My God my God why have you forsaken me?
The son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins
Matt 20:28. The son of man came..to give his life as a ransom fo many.
Jn 14: 10 No one comes to the father but through me.
Lk 24:47 ..That repentance for forgiveness of sins be proclaimed in his name.
Lk 24:7 The son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinners and crucified.
Acts 2.38 be baptised in the name of jesus for the forgiveness of your sins.
IMV we must humble our minds under God's word or we tend to put ourselves out of the reach of its power to change us.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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