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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: How do Muslims see Christians? (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: How do Muslims see Christians?
molopata

The Ship's jack
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Sorry, I'm still struggling with the OP. It's too general.

What "Muslims" and what "Christians" do we mean?

Are we talking about how Christians and Muslims get on living as neighbours door-on-door?

Are we talking about Muslim masses who in different parts of the world have been subject to fanatic hate-mongering and have either never met a Christian or are led to see Christians simply as "the Others"?

Are we talking about how Muslims view Christians' relationship to God or rather their moral actions?

Are we talking about how different strains of Muslims theology see Christianity?

I fear at this point that most evidence we collect as a majority-Christian board is going to anecdotal, and describe only a very narrow part of the spectrum, making any discussion rather disjointed. I'm thinking that the person best positioned to answer the question is the OPer himself.

Beyond that, the only permissible generalism I can think of at the moment is that most practising Muslim regard practising Christians with greater respect than any atheist or agnostic. But that is only a comparative and arguably a bit banal.

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... The Respectable

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Plato's cat
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quote:
Originally posted by Pottage:
quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
My friend, you have nothing to fear from Muslims. We are not out to get you whatever you may think.

If you were to get to know Muslims in your community I'm sure you will find this to be true. Once again, please don't rely on the media for the truth about Islam (or much else?). Create your own life experiences based on personal contacts with real people.

I'm not your friend. I meet Muslims every day (save for some Sundays, admittedly). I have Muslim neighbours and colleagues, and spend some time in a local school which is overwhelmingly Muslim. I don't fear or distrust any of those people. I like some, dislike some, and have a hard time finding anything in common with quite a few. Pretty much the same as at church in fact. On the other hand a classmate of my youngest daughter lost her father to a bomb in Afghansitan last year, so I don't fool myself that every Muslim on the planet is equally amiable. YMMV.
Afghansitan is a war zone! It doesnt suggest the nasty Muslims are out to get you .

By that logic I could argue that Christians are out to kill Muslims because there are Christians in the British army that is occupying by force a Muslim country. I think you are being paranoid.

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Plato's cat
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quote:
Originally posted by Seb:
I must say its a pleasure to hear some reasonable comments about muslim people coming from non-muslims. In England, there are many muslims and I suspect this is why many of you are reasonable about them. When you rub shoulders with people, you realize they are just people.

In Australia, people are much more bigoted about Muslims but I suspect its because we don't have many yet...

[Frown]

Plato, I think your opening post was about politics, not religion. As a christian in Australia, I have nothing to do with the middle east [Biased]

Funny you said you were a christian and are now a muslim. opposite happened to me [Smile]

As you know, Muslims do not make a distinction between religion and politics, so my post encompasses both. Remember Tawheed?

Btw though you may not personally be involved in the middle east, your government is. It has troups occupying Muslim countries such as Iraq and Afganistan.

[ 27. May 2009, 07:32: Message edited by: Plato's cat ]

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Komensky
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PC, I suspect that the intervention of 'the West' in Middle-Eastern Musilm countries is not solely religiously motivated, but that the perceived religious aspect is largely incidental. Many powerful Western elites are just a happy to hang Christians out to dry as they are Musilims (Palestine, East Timor, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkey, Cyprus, etc.). If the West always ran to the defence of Christians and with the same rapidity to persecute Muslims then it might be a different story; but the pattern simple isn't there.

I can certainly understand how this (the Western occupation of Muslim countries) effects perception of 'Christians' (in the sense of 'Westerners') and may have something to do with the persecution of Christians in Muslim countries. Why is it that Muslims in Christian countries enjoy far greater freedom that Christians in Muslim countries?

K.

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"The English are not very spiritual people, so they invented cricket to give them some idea of eternity." - George Bernard Shaw

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:

Btw though you may not personally be involved in the middle east, your government is. It has troups occupying Muslim countries such as Iraq and Afganistan.

I'm British. Yes, we invaded Afghanistan (legitimately, in retaliation for an attack on an ally and to save millions of Muslims from a crazy tyranny, though we may be failing to achieve that objective) and we invaded Iraq (illegitimately, we started it in order to save George Bush's face, though as a side-effect we may have sort of accidentally saved millions of Muslims from a slightly less crazy tyranny, admitttedly by killing a few hundred thousand of them first)

But that's got nothng to do with them being Muslims. This is the British government we are talking about. Over the centuries they have been involved in more wars overseas than any other government in history (probably more than the next half dozen put together). We started some of them. Its hard to think of a country we haven't had troops in. We bomb Buddhists and put Christians in concentration camps. We are an equal opportunity invader.

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Pottage
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quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
I think you are being paranoid.

So I am "paranoid" although what I have said is that I believe a huge majority of the world's Muslims are NOT out to get me? Or because I have explained very clearly that I interact without distrust or difficulty with all the Muslims I encounter in my daily life, of which there are scores in an average week? You don't seem to be responding to what I am posting, but rather to be bashing out stock answers addressed to some imagined Bigot Of Straw. Perhaps that better suits whatever agenda prompted you to begin this thread.

What you said prompted you to start this thread was a post from Fr Cuthbert which you quoted and which finished:

quote:
'I don't know Islam very well, and wonder if they would have a large variety of answers to the question 'How do Muslims see Christians?'
To judge from your website you are a very experienced Muslim apologist and very likely you are better placed than any other Shipmate to inform us of the different perceptions of Christians held by various types of Muslim. A pity then that you have contented yourself with telling us effectively that all Muslims universally hold the same view of Christians. Muslims are all apparently a bit disappointed at Christians' stubborn wrongheadedness in matters of faith (though it seems you personally are a little at odds with the Qur'an as to what that means for Christians in the hereafter). And Muslims are all affronted at what they perceive to be "Christian" politics and a "Christian" tendency to disrespect Islam.

There are no differences in opinions between Muslims of different upbringing and cultural heritage? Or between Muslims of different generations? Or between Sunni, Shi'a and Sufi?


BTW I am conscious that Afghanistan is a war zone, albeit that the non-Muslim soldiers fighting and dying there are present at the request of the Muslim authorities whose (Muslim) soldiers are fighting alongside them. Was Madrid also a war zone? Central London in the rush hour? Bali's tourist district?

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:


Btw though you may not personally be involved in the middle east, your government is. It has troups occupying Muslim countries such as Iraq and Afganistan.

You think this implies religious war? [Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me] Only deluded fundamentalists on both sides believe that [Big Grin]
Tell that to the Australian muslims [Big Grin] Didn't realize my parents were actively killing their brethren in different countries!

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a theological scrapbook

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the gnome
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Indeed. What sort of religious war was it when NATO bombed (Christian) Serbia in defense of (Muslim) Kosovars? Or when the US sent troops to (Muslim) Somalia to help protect UN humanitarian aid shipments?
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North East Quine

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Plato's cat, you said, in response to my earlier post

quote:
Nice but deluded? Well the Quran says that they have 'gone astray' in their faith, by worshiping the Messiah. Muslims are unitarians - like Jews (and Jesus!)
Would it be true, as it seems to me, that in an area with few Muslims, Muslims are more comfortable with Christians, than with atheists?
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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Tazman:
<snip>
This is all giving me a bit of a headache, I think I'm going to disappear back to the private boards where religion isn't the subject of discussion. Safer territory, I think. :/

I don't know how much this helps but apologies aren't easy, so you can be sure you'll be a whole lot more welcome now that you have apologised and that Hell thread has been closed.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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The idea that the foreign policy and involvement in foregin military adventures in the modern era at least is to do with religious affiliation is absurd. Numerous wars, as everyone knows, have been fought between states populated by Christians, whilst wars and acts of military aggression have been perpetrated by Muslims against Muslims. Why is it different when nominally Christian states fight states within the Muslim world? Even the burden of a history of Western imperialism/colonialism doesn't account for the attitude that Muslim states are under a religiously-motivated attack by the West, because Western states have perpetrated imperialist aggression upon one another.

Meanwhile, Muslims in the West will simply have to accept Western political systems and political philosophy. They shouldn't presume to exploit liberal regimes in order to bring about illiberalism and Western regimes are crazy to allow the erosion of liberal political principles in an attempt to appease whinging and terroristic Muslims (not to say that the majority of Muslims resident in the West fall into these noisy and turbulent categories).

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El Greco
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
The idea that the foreign policy and involvement in foregin military adventures in the modern era at least is to do with religious affiliation is absurd.

Is it though?

Lots of people see religious influences behind some policy making of the Bush administration, including some of their foreign policy and the way they behaved towards Muslim prisoners at Guantanamo and the secret prisons in foreign countries.

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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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The religious beliefs of George Shithead Bush and various stray members of the military did not constitute the motivation for invading Iraq and Afghanistan.
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El Greco
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I don't doubt that the motives behind the decision to invade a foreign country are complex.

However, you can't say that religion does not influence policy making, exactly because leaders like the former president of the US, or the former prime minister of the UK had some pretty strong religious convictions.

Religion plays a great role in the US elections. The candidates know that, and try to reach towards that part of the population for whom the candidate's position on certain matters needs to conform to religious standards.

From anti-abortion groups supporting the Republicans, to the selection of Governor Sarah Palin as the candidate for the vice presidency of the world's most powerful country, religion had an important impact in politics.

The same applies for the way some men of religious convictions behaved in Iraq after the invasion. Or the religious "terrorism" that took place in the Gitmo against the Muslim prisoners.

It's very silly to pretend that the religious convictions of the members of the administration did not influence their policy making.

And the Muslim world isn't stupid. Yes, they might overreact, but they knew there were religious motives behind the co-ordinated efforts of some Western politicians with strong religious convictions of dominance in the Muslim world.

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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.

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Hawk

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I would partially agree with Andrew as in the US it seems that religious convictions do have a great deal of influence on policy making. I would argue however that this seems to be restrained only to social policies such as abortion, gay marraige etc. I am not convinced and have seen no evidence by Andrew or elsewhere that religious policy and foreign policy are connected anywhere else than inside the minds of the paranoid and those trying to whip up a mob.

I would argue that this is because the Gospel has nothing within it to provide fuel for religious war. Historically, religious conflict within Christianity has almost entirely been the result of medieval political power struggles under the most influential banner of the day. There is nowhere to turn in Christianity to argue that God is calling the faithful to temporal armed struggle. You have to look outside the teachings of Jesus and the apostles to find excuses for war.

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See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts

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Beeswax Altar
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One more time...

Christians were split over invading Iraq.
Jews were split over the issue of invading Iraq.
Muslims were split over the issue of invading Iraq.
Atheists were split over the issue of invading Iraq.
Everybody was in favor of invading Afghanistan.

If the United States were trying to wage a war against Islam, we wouldn't have bombed Serbia. It was not in our best interest to do so (nor was Somalia). Our involvement in the politics of predominantly Muslim countries can be simply and rationally explained without ever mentioning Christianity.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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Plato's cat
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Salam all

Being the sole Muslim voice here on this thread makes it very difficult to respnd to all the points made. My apologies for not responding in detail.

To reiterate, I do not speak for all Muslims, but only for myself. Islam does not have a priestly cast or magisterium, or any other intermediaries between the individual and God. But I am trying to represent (however poorly) what many of us feel in the current situation, both religiously and politicaly.

I think that powerful sections of the West ARE engaged in a fight against Islam, and are religiously motivated.

Just 2 examples:

1. The evangelical right in the US is a very powerful force influencing American foreign policy. Christians helped elect GW Bush, an evangelical Christian. The US is uncritically supportive of Zionism and Israel's genocidal campaign against the Palestinians. This causes huge resentment and anger in the Muslim world, which I share. Some Muslims see this as an excuse - contrary to the clear teaching of Islam - to kill civilians in Israel and the US. I understand their outrage but reject terrorism outright.

2. Recent documents come to light from the Department of Defense and the Pentagon in the US have revealed that official documents were routinely peppered with quotations from the Bible. Rumsfeld clearly saw his mission in explicitly religious terms when he invaded the two Muslim countries in question.

I could go on, but that's all I have time for at the moment. I'm busy preparing for an event this evening which I am chairing called: 'Islam and Terrorism: Is Islam a threat to the West?' I'm also giving a lecture at this event entitled 'Are Muslims in this country a threat to traditional British values?' (l'll be posting my contribution on my blog later).

Everyone is welcome to come, leave political correctness at the door, and ask challenging questions of the speakers (there are 5 of us). Its taking place in central London and more info can be seen here:

Muslim Debate Initiative

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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I very much doubt that Rummy's use of biblical quotations was anything other than cynicism on his part.

The pro-Israel lobby in the US has been primarily Jewish, though joined by some con-evos since the time of Reagan. Much of the US entanglement with Israel was an artifact of Cold War politics involving the US-USSR contest for world hegemony -- at this point it is mainly an anachronism, though the hijinks of various regional dictators and demagogues has only helped to maintain US support for Israel. However, if the con-evos were all that effective a force, our current POTUS would never have been elected.

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Plato's cat
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I very much doubt that Rummy's use of biblical quotations was anything other than cynicism on his part.

I dont agree. See the BBC report here:

Rumsfeld Bible texts

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Beeswax Altar
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One, the decision to put the quotes in the report was the decision of a major general (hardly the hightest levels of government). President Bush didn't even see them regularly. They are not evidence the United States was fighting a holy war against Islam. Why attack Iraq and set up a government potentially more loyal to the mullahs in Iran than those who put them in power? Nobody has answered the question about our intervention into Kosovo in which we killed Christians to protect Muslims. When was the last time a Muslim government killed other Muslims to protect Christians?

Two, the United States has always been supportive of Israel. It was the case before Evangelical Christians became an important block for Republicans. It would be supportive of Israel if Evangelical Christians weren't an important constituency. Americans as a whole are more sympathetic to Israel. If that causes Muslims to hate Americans, Muslims are going to be hating Americans for a long time to come.

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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Pottage
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quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I very much doubt that Rummy's use of biblical quotations was anything other than cynicism on his part.

I dont agree. See the BBC report here:

Rumsfeld Bible texts

I'm tempted to say that's paranoia, given the absence of any credible evidence that Rumsfeld personally was driven by religious zeal rather than, say political opportunism and greed for power and money.

But the fact that it's objectively pretty ludicrous is almost immaterial. If that's a widespread perception, even amongst Muslims possessed of a Western university education and cosmopolitan background then it's pretty significant in any event. In partial answer to the question posed in the OP it tells us one of the ways that (many) Muslims see Christians, and it's a way which differs substantially from the way Christians see themselves. It's a perception of "Christendom" that hasn't had a basis in reality for many centuries, as some sort of cohesive entity with a powerful, commonly-held ambition to attack and destroy Muslims, just because they ARE Muslims.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I very much doubt that Rummy's use of biblical quotations was anything other than cynicism on his part.

I dont agree. See the BBC report here:

Rumsfeld Bible texts

Yes, and what about the rest of my post (with which Matins seems to be in some agreement)?
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Let me just add that historically the lack of sympathy on the part of Americans for the Palestinians has IMO had to do not with their being Muslims but with their being Arabs, in contrast to a largely European Israel. The Arabs have been viewed as backwards. This may be partly racism and partly a deplorable failure to realise the historic injustices done to the Palestinians, again because it's easier to identify with the Israelis who tend to look like so many of us Euro-Americans. Obviously a good portion of the Palestinians were/are Christian, although the Christian segment of the population has been drawn down due to emigration. The lack of American support for the Palestinians may stem from ignoble motives, but anti-Islamic feeling hasn't been a prominent factor in that. Rather, Superpower geopolitics were most determinative at the level of government policy, and anti-Arab/pro-European feeling at the level of the American on the street. Further, Americans have tended to see the Palestinian leadership as its own worst enemy, leading to a further loss of sympathy; and historically Yassir Arafat wasn't a figure who was personally appealing to most Americans (indeed, a little bit repulsive).
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molopata

The Ship's jack
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quote:
Originally posted by Komensky:
PC, I suspect that the intervention of 'the West' in Middle-Eastern Musilm countries is not solely religiously motivated, but that the perceived religious aspect is largely incidental. Many powerful Western elites are just a happy to hang Christians out to dry as they are Muslims (Palestine, East Timor, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Turkey, Cyprus, etc.). If the West always ran to the defence of Christians and with the same rapidity to persecute Muslims then it might be a different story; but the pattern simple isn't there.

Quite so.
I would certainly hope that the religious convictions of a Christian political leader would have some influence on his/her decisions at the helm of state, otherwise I would have to question the content of their faith. Nevertheless, invading Iraq or Afghanistan, misguided perhaps, was hardly an exercise in subjugating Muslims but motivated by self-preservation or protection of interests.
It is a known fact that a lot of polemic slung around the Islamic promotes this kind of West=Crusaders-view (admittedly, G.W's script writers didn't help). However, it doesn't even start to stand up to closer scrutiny in any reasonably well-informed discussion.

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... The Respectable

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Plato's cat
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If the views I have expressed on this thread are at all representative of most Muslims sentiments, and if the views expressed by the Christians on this thread (and others from the West) are at all representative of most Western sentiments, then we have here, in microcosm, a picture of what divides the West from the rest.

Very sad really, and it bodes ill for the future of our world...

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Hawk

Semi-social raptor
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quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
If the views I have expressed on this thread are at all representative of most Muslims sentiments, and if the views expressed by the Christians on this thread (and others from the West) are at all representative of most Western sentiments, then we have here, in microcosm, a picture of what divides the West from the rest.

Very sad really, and it bodes ill for the future of our world...

I don't understand what you mean by this. You have made comments stating why you see the western-led conflicts as in terms primarily of Christian vs Islam. Other have replied with disagreement and explained why in clear and reasonable terms. I would like to hear a response to some of the points raised. IMO there is no evidence that foreign policy is religiously motivated but I recognise that the US has shot itself in the foot time and again and has made it very easy for Muslim political commentators to argue this and for Muslims to see it in these terms.

I think the main problem is that, whatever westerners say and however many reasonable arguments and evidence we present that shows the wars were political rather than religious in nature and foundation, Muslims will not believe us. Bush was an idiot and so was Rumsfeld. There is a good reason why Church and state is explicitly seperated in the US and the actions of the idiot Right have shown the damage the narrowing of this seperation can cause, even if only in rhetoric and playing to the crowd. It should be a salutory lesson to the US and to the rest of the West that, even if religion and politics are seperated, it is important to make sure this fact is clear, and not muddy the waters with lazy quotations, thoughtless comments and low rhetorical tactics. For Muslims it seems that they don't understand this seperation of Church and state in the West and, looking at some of the political speeches and debates over the last decade, I can understand why.

Plato's Cat, do you think there is any hope? Can we offer any argument or evidence that would convince you and Muslims in general of our understanding that Religious War is an invention, not a reality? Or has the damage been done and the consequences to East/West relations irreversible. The Middle East has long memories after all and doesn't forget or forgive grudges easily. Is this the same for Western Muslims? Is there anything that can be done? Has Obama's election and more conciliatory and secular rhetoric helped the situation? Or is the level of mistrust and bitterness unchanged?

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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer

See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts

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Evensong
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No not sad really. Luckily life is much more complex, not this black and white.

I don't know anything about America except that it is a more religious country than Australia. We are essentially a secular country. Only ten percent of our population attend a sunday service at church.

There is no justification therefore in saying Australia is in a religious war against Islam in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's paranoia.

[Paranoid]

I for one marched against the war in iraq and my parish priest is horrified at Israel.

Please don't brush us all with the same brush. That kind of attitude WANTS to start a war.

War is about power, not religion.

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
the_raptor
Shipmate
# 10533

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quote:
Originally posted by Seb:
In Australia, people are much more bigoted about Muslims but I suspect its because we don't have many yet...

No it is because our (largest?) and most 'visible' Muslim* community (Lebanese) is rife with problems. They come from a failed state that endured a long civil war, and so the level of community and generational dysfunction is high and this gets blamed on them being Muslim. If our largest Muslim population was Pakistani shop keepers (as it was in Britain from the 60') there would be much less bigotry.

* Most people don't realize that around half of Lebanese are Christian.

--------------------
Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly

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the_raptor
Shipmate
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quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
1. The evangelical right in the US is a very powerful force influencing American foreign policy. Christians helped elect GW Bush, an evangelical Christian.

Was. And Bush and co hung them out to dry. There is a reason the Republicans lost votes in 2004 and nearly got wiped off the map in 2008. The neo-con agenda is not closely linked to the evangelical right at all, in fact in a lot of places it goes directly against it. The only reason the neo-cons got the support they did is because far to many Christians will single issue vote (abortion, gay marriage etc).

And you could say exactly the above about any country with a Muslim majority. Should they stop Turkey joining the EU because the most popular party is religious?

And if what you said is true why would this Christian power bloc protect Israel? The smart thing to do strategically would be to let a fight break out, watch Israel nuke half the middle east, and then move in under the guise of peacekeeping. If we wanted to take out the Muslim world we would. There are probably 2-3 Muslim countries that have anything resembling a decent military. And the threat of terrorism is easily eliminated by internment camps.

The neo-cons were paying back Saddam for making them look stupid after Gulf War I and they used anything they could to get the support for it. Not engaging on a crusade.

--------------------
Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly

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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

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There is a tremendous variety amongst our Muslim community in Australia.

If you look at Sydney - our largest, wealthiest and most economically stratified city (house prices) - you'll find the only Middle Eastern communities whose members live predominantly on the very upper middle class North Shore are the Armenians and the Iranians.

Of these the Iranians are mainly Muslim but mostly Shi'ite (some ethnic minorities in Iran: Arabs; Baluchis and Turcoman are Sunni but there are few of them here).

Most Iranians here are middle class - often US educated - refugees from the Ayaytollah's regime. There is a small but active Sufi minority. Some are Bahai.

Indo-Fijian-Pak Muslims vary. Some are Westernised and secular. Others are devout followers of the Tablighi Jamaat (conservative 'home missionary' - to other Muslims - variety). Some were/are extreme. Some very few have been imprisoned for alleged terrorist activities. One - a Dr Hanif - was wrongly suspected of being associated with terrorism and treated abominably by ASIO (our internal security service) and became a cause celebre. Australia's Dreyfus?

The Lebanese Muslims who live in the Lakemba area in Western Sydney are a special case. Basically they were simple folks from the less educated, often rural or West Beirut areas, whose lives were disrupted by the Lebanese Civil War of circa 1971.

The Australian Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs (as it then was) made a recommendation that they not be admitted to this country en masse because they did not fulfill normal immigration criteria and would not integrate into our community.

This was overuled by the Minister, Philip Ruddock under the then Prime Minister, John Howard, of inglorious fame, due to political lobbying by Lebanese well up with the NSW Liberal Party. A disastrous decision IMHO. DIMA were right!

The religious leader of these people, Sheikh Tajieddin Al-Hillaly, to put it mildly a most controversial figure, justly IMHO accused of anti-Semitism and at least duplicity in regard to his statements about Australian women, was recommended for deportation, but, once again, was 'saved' by our Worst Prime Minister.

Alone amongst immigrant communities of any size, Lakemba's Lebanese Muslims have not intermarried with the general populace. Probably due to tightness of the community and economic deprivation.

The infamous Cronulla Riots highlighted the problems of Lebanese youth in Sydney. It also highlighted a stream of racism in our society which I would say is not general.

After these riots there was a real attempt by both sides to come together.

--------------------
Well...

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daisymay

St Elmo's Fire
# 1480

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There are where I live, really nice, friendly, muslim neighbours to me; we get on well with each other, respect each other, say we'll pray for each other when we have problems and take care of each other when necessary. Gifts and cards are given to us all at Christmas, Eid etc.

We can also joke with each other about varying beliefs, for example, the Lebanese muslim neighbours always enjoy music, and one other family don't let their children have music - different way of believing.

So we do see each other in a non-prejudiced way, which is really nice. And one elderly muslim man helped me with my spiky making of Christ's physical crucifixion head torture, because he could see it was spiking me a bit as I cut it off the plant and circled it.

--------------------
London
Flickr fotos

Posts: 11224 | From: London - originally Dundee, Blairgowrie etc... | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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Amen daisymay [Votive] [Votive]

Most of my best friends still remaining in Indonesia are muslim.

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a theological scrapbook

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:

Muslim Debate Initiative

That website gets the nearest tube station for tonight's event wrong. If its at Birkbeck then its not Edgeware Road but Russell Square and Goodge Street (about equal distances). And if its room B34 then its two floors down and across the corridor from the room I am sitting in now.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Campbellite

Ut unum sint
# 1202

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quote:
Originally posted by Tazman:
Lady in Red, I will not be joining you in Hell. I'm sorry that you took such offence, but I think that says more about you, than what I actually said.

"I'm sorry that YOU took offense"? What kind of apology is that?

What you said WAS highly offensive and inflammatory. Lady in Red was right to call you to Hell for it. Failing to respond in Hell only makes your offense worse.

Hie thee to Hell and offer a real apology.

--------------------
I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?

Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472

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I fear that I will never forget the two Somali attendants at a parking lot which I used to cross through on my way to work. All throughout the winter, we exchanged cheerful fellow-suffers- of-winter nods at each other, and soon came to the intimacy (well, that passes for intimacy in Ottawa) of observations about the weather.

Clearly having heard that Easter was coming on the weekend, one of them poked his head out of his little (heated) watch hut to wish me a Very Happy Good Friday. He saw that I was a bit startled, and told me that he knew it was an important day for Christians. Indeed it was, I answered, but told him that the exchange of chocolate had to wait for Sunday.

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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
As you know, Muslims do not make a distinction between religion and politics,

There's the rub. This is the reason why I don't trust Islam as far as I can see backwards and consider it codified bigotry. If you mix clean water with dirty water, you get dirty water. If you mix religion with politics, you get politics. Matters of faith become matters of fear and honesty becomes a crime.

"How do Muslims see Christians?" In way too many places in the world, especially if the Christian was once a Muslim, we appear to be seen as criminals. If this is not the case, then please inform us of the countries currently dominated by Islam where matters of faith are considered too important to be a concern of the government.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Kid Who Cracked
Shipmate
# 13963

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quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
quote:
Originally posted by Tazman:
Lady in Red, I will not be joining you in Hell. I'm sorry that you took such offence, but I think that says more about you, than what I actually said.

"I'm sorry that YOU took offense"? What kind of apology is that?

What you said WAS highly offensive and inflammatory. Lady in Red was right to call you to Hell for it. Failing to respond in Hell only makes your offense worse.

Hie thee to Hell and offer a real apology.

Am I the only one blinkered by all this hyper-sensitivity? Do we Christians even have the right to be personally offended in this manner?
Posts: 532 | From: Texas | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Kid Who Cracked:
Am I the only one blinkered by all this hyper-sensitivity? Do we Christians even have the right to be personally offended in this manner?

No and no.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
quote:
Originally posted by Tazman:
Lady in Red, I will not be joining you in Hell. I'm sorry that you took such offence, but I think that says more about you, than what I actually said.

"I'm sorry that YOU took offense"? What kind of apology is that?

What you said WAS highly offensive and inflammatory. Lady in Red was right to call you to Hell for it. Failing to respond in Hell only makes your offense worse.

Hie thee to Hell and offer a real apology.

Campbellite

For info only.

That would be a bit pointless, not to say impossible, since

a) Lady in Red accepted Tazman's later apology

b) Marvin closed the Hell thread a day before your post.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host


--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

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I would suggest reading the works of sane, integrated, nonjihadist Muslims in the West: Ed Husain; Ziauddin Sardar and Irfan Yusuf (an Australian) spring immediately to mind.

Christianity; Islam and Judaism all sprung from the Middle East. A cauldron of war for 4000 years plus. Still the same.

Oh for the peaceful coexistence approach of Buddhism!

--------------------
Well...

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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383

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quote:
Oh for the peaceful coexistence approach of Buddhism!
Though according to the charity Open Doors Bhutan is the 11th worst country in the world for persecuting Christians.

From their website:

quote:
In 2008 the first-ever parliamentary elections were held, a new king was crowned and a new constitution guaranteeing more religious liberty was implemented. But Christianity still does not officially exist. Persecution comes mainly from the family, the community and Buddhist monks, who have significant influence. Believers meet in secret. They face discrimination in education and employment. Building churches is banned.

Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Plato's cat
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# 11158

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quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
As you know, Muslims do not make a distinction between religion and politics,

There's the rub. This is the reason why I don't trust Islam as far as I can see backwards and consider it codified bigotry. If you mix clean water with dirty water, you get dirty water. If you mix religion with politics, you get politics. Matters of faith become matters of fear and honesty becomes a crime.


Islam deals with real life , with man as he is, which is sometimes dirty, nasty, brutish and short; it is not a faith that has become privatised, domesticated, purely 'spiritual' and unconcerned with mans political and social realities.

If you want a biblical paradigm then consider the life and ministry of Moses: Prophet, statesman, Law-giver, Judge, Leader of a nation, and Man of God.

Posts: 715 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
the_raptor
Shipmate
# 10533

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quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
As you know, Muslims do not make a distinction between religion and politics,

There's the rub. This is the reason why I don't trust Islam as far as I can see backwards and consider it codified bigotry. If you mix clean water with dirty water, you get dirty water. If you mix religion with politics, you get politics. Matters of faith become matters of fear and honesty becomes a crime.


Islam deals with real life , with man as he is, which is sometimes dirty, nasty, brutish and short; it is not a faith that has become privatised, domesticated, purely 'spiritual' and unconcerned with mans political and social realities.
And Christianity doesn't? Wait, weren't you just accusing Christians of being bad for influencing politics to bring about religiously motivated goals? The evangelical right you were attacking earlier is exactly the type of Christianity that uses its faith everyday in the real world. I also know Salvationists and you could hardly accuse them of not living their faith in the face of the uglier realities of the world.

Make up your mind.

quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
If you want a biblical paradigm then consider the life and ministry of Moses: Prophet, statesman, Law-giver, Judge, Leader of a nation, and Man of God.

Which is why most of us in the West would prefer to live in secular democracies. As long experience has shown us that self-proclaimed "Men of God" tend to be "dirty, nasty, brutish". King David was a man of God, but I prefer my political leaders to be accountable to the people for when they get people killed just so they can shag their wives.

I like the Queen but I have too much Irish Catholic blood in me to trust in the 'divine right of kings'.

--------------------
Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly

Posts: 3921 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
Plato's cat
Shipmate
# 11158

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quote:
Originally posted by the_raptor:
quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
As you know, Muslims do not make a distinction between religion and politics,

There's the rub. This is the reason why I don't trust Islam as far as I can see backwards and consider it codified bigotry. If you mix clean water with dirty water, you get dirty water. If you mix religion with politics, you get politics. Matters of faith become matters of fear and honesty becomes a crime.


Islam deals with real life , with man as he is, which is sometimes dirty, nasty, brutish and short; it is not a faith that has become privatised, domesticated, purely 'spiritual' and unconcerned with mans political and social realities.
And Christianity doesn't? Wait, weren't you just accusing Christians of being bad for influencing politics to bring about religiously motivated goals? The evangelical right you were attacking earlier is exactly the type of Christianity that uses its faith everyday in the real world. I also know Salvationists and you could hardly accuse them of not living their faith in the face of the uglier realities of the world.

Make up your mind.

quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
If you want a biblical paradigm then consider the life and ministry of Moses: Prophet, statesman, Law-giver, Judge, Leader of a nation, and Man of God.

Which is why most of us in the West would prefer to live in secular democracies. As long experience has shown us that self-proclaimed "Men of God" tend to be "dirty, nasty, brutish". King David was a man of God, but I prefer my political leaders to be accountable to the people for when they get people killed just so they can shag their wives.

I like the Queen but I have too much Irish Catholic blood in me to trust in the 'divine right of kings'.

I was only responding to the post that claimed that religion and politics should not mix. Of course many Christians would not agree with this position. But Islam is a way of life, it does not comparmentalise man into differnt religious, political, spiritual boxes as we see in the West. It is holistic. If God is exists then he is the Lord of all things.
Posts: 715 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2006  |  IP: Logged
the_raptor
Shipmate
# 10533

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quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
I was only responding to the post that claimed that religion and politics should not mix. Of course many Christians would not agree with this position. But Islam is a way of life, it does not comparmentalise man into differnt religious, political, spiritual boxes as we see in the West. It is holistic. If God is exists then he is the Lord of all things.

"Christianity is a way of life" is exactly how my church and the church of many other Shipmates sees things. However those claiming to rule in God's name are nearly always frauds and tyrants.

Every "Christian" party in Australia is obsessed with trying to make people holy (by banning naughty things) instead of looking after the poor and dispossessed.

No thanks, I will vote for the non-religious parties that actually fulfill my religions priorities.

--------------------
Mal: look at this! Appears we got here just in the nick of time. What does that make us?
Zoe: Big damn heroes, sir!
Mal: Ain't we just?
— Firefly

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Campbellite

Ut unum sint
# 1202

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Campbellite:
quote:
Originally posted by Tazman:
Lady in Red, I will not be joining you in Hell. I'm sorry that you took such offence, but I think that says more about you, than what I actually said.

"I'm sorry that YOU took offense"? What kind of apology is that?

What you said WAS highly offensive and inflammatory. Lady in Red was right to call you to Hell for it. Failing to respond in Hell only makes your offense worse.

Hie thee to Hell and offer a real apology.

Campbellite

For info only.

That would be a bit pointless, not to say impossible, since

a) Lady in Red accepted Tazman's later apology

b) Marvin closed the Hell thread a day before your post.

Barnabas62
Purgatory Host

I apologize for the ill timing. It was only after the fact that I saw it.

--------------------
I upped mine. Up yours.
Suffering for Jesus since 1966.
WTFWED?

Posts: 12001 | From: between keyboard and chair | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
molopata

The Ship's jack
# 9933

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quote:
Originally posted by Plato's cat:
I was only responding to the post that claimed that religion and politics should not mix. Of course many Christians would not agree with this position. But Islam is a way of life, it does not compartmentalise man into different religious, political, spiritual boxes as we see in the West. It is holistic. If God is exists then he is the Lord of all things.

Then which political system or country in the Muslim world would you fathom as the best manifestation of this?

--------------------
... The Respectable

Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005  |  IP: Logged
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644

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Indeed

If Muslims see making their religious convictions the norm for national life via the political process, the secular democracies of Europe have to ask themselves if it makes sense to keep allowing Muslims to immigrate to their countries and eventually take part in the political process. My guess is they are hoping that Muslim immigrants come to embrace the secular democracy of their new home. I'm sure some do and some don't. In any event, those reading the comments of Plato's Cat and believing them to be the norm for Muslims might start to find the message of right wing groups wanting to limit immigration more and more appealing. Unless, as Molopata the Rebel suggests, there is some nation where Islam is the state religion where a majority of Western Europeans would prefer to live than their own nation. I can't think of one off the top of my head.

--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827

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quote:
Originally posted by Matins:
Indeed

If Muslims see making their religious convictions the norm for national life via the political process, the secular democracies of Europe have to ask themselves if it makes sense to keep allowing Muslims to immigrate to their countries and eventually take part in the political process. My guess is they are hoping that Muslim immigrants come to embrace the secular democracy of their new home. I'm sure some do and some don't. In any event, those reading the comments of Plato's Cat and believing them to be the norm for Muslims might start to find the message of right wing groups wanting to limit immigration more and more appealing. Unless, as Molopata the Rebel suggests, there is some nation where Islam is the state religion where a majority of Western Europeans would prefer to live than their own nation. I can't think of one off the top of my head.

Well, I was said to be compartmentalizing things. My faith certainly has an impact on my vote. However, the faith is to be the norm for the people the world over who actually have the faith. In Acts 2, for example, Peter told the folks to repent and be baptized. Does this mean I should demand the cops start locking up everyone who don't?

In Matthew 22:37-38 after being asked what was the greatest commandment Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'

Though the very nature of government is force, you cannot coerce heart, soul and mind out of anyone. Those can only be freely given.

The alternative is like what I said - Matters of faith become matters of fear and honesty becomes a crime.

--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell

Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
Plato's cat
Shipmate
# 11158

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quote:
Originally posted by Matins:
Indeed

If Muslims see making their religious convictions the norm for national life via the political process, the secular democracies of Europe have to ask themselves if it makes sense to keep allowing Muslims to immigrate to their countries and eventually take part in the political process. My guess is they are hoping that Muslim immigrants come to embrace the secular democracy of their new home. I'm sure some do and some don't. In any event, those reading the comments of Plato's Cat and believing them to be the norm for Muslims might start to find the message of right wing groups wanting to limit immigration more and more appealing. Unless, as Molopata the Rebel suggests, there is some nation where Islam is the state religion where a majority of Western Europeans would prefer to live than their own nation. I can't think of one off the top of my head.

Hi there

there is no country in existence today that I would describe as Islamic. Most muslim majority countries are ruled by secular dictatorships (eg Syria).

I gave a talk a few days ago on whether Islam is a threat to British values, you can read it here:

Islam

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