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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: "SPCK" bookshops
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
Churches close for a reason. It is very sad that they close, but the saddest part is that the people remain ignorant of the renewal of Life Jesus Christ brings. So, if you have the guts, become a saint first, and evangelize the people by your presence, and then the churches will become full again. Start solving their problems and conflicts, let the Holy Spirit heal others through you, and then the people will go to church. You don't get an empty church first... What are you going to do with it??
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
J Whitgift said: quote:
postman
This does not sound like a word from a man who buys his books from a bookshop but from the catalogue of a dealer or, horror of horrors, over the interweb.
Aumbry
Unfortunately I can only get some of the titles I want in bookshops. Whilst London is well supplied with bookshops, hardly any of them (including Blackwells) have the books I'm looking for. Sadly the internet is the only to find some titles. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
Posts: 2838 | From: Gone shoreside | Registered: Dec 2001
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Edward Green
Review Editor
# 46
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
Away from SPCK for a moment.
Brewer has this crazy idea that all he needs to do is buy a few churches, open them and people will flock in when they see "good ole time relijun."
I echo the good Father's sentiments. Churches do close for all sorts of reasons. Some should never have been built int he first place. I don't see reopening them as 'shrines' as very healthy.
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blog//twitter//
linkedin
Posts: 4893 | Registered: May 2001
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Major Disaster
Shipmate
# 13229
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
Churches close for a reason. It is very sad that they close, but the saddest part is that the people remain ignorant of the renewal of Life Jesus Christ brings. So, if you have the guts, become a saint first, and evangelize the people by your presence, and then the churches will become full again. Start solving their problems and conflicts, let the Holy Spirit heal others through you, and then the people will go to church. You don't get an empty church first... What are you going to do with it??
But the Good Shepherd leads from the front, and Orthodox Saints preach primarily by their being what they are.
I am only on The Way. So are most of us.
Be patient. Give us time.
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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O Beata Solitudo! Sola Beatitudo!
Posts: 869 | From: Heart of Midlothian | Registered: Dec 2007
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innocent(ish)
Shipmate
# 12691
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Posted
In my copy of Christianity magazine that arrived this morning, one of the fliers that I normally file in the bin was a small catalogue from Wesley Owen, titled 'The Anglican Store'. All the items a discerning CofE type could possibly want.
Looks like following the failed merger talks, they're going for the jugular with SPCK in its current mess.
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"Christianity has become part of the furniture ... like a grand piano nobody plays any longer.I want the dust to be taken off and people to play music." Archbishop John Sentamu
Posts: 109 | From: Rochester | Registered: Jun 2007
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Pokrov
Shipmate
# 11515
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Posted
Went to the SSG/SPCK in Worcester a few days ago. Friendly staff, very helpful. Popped up stairs to find most of the shelves empty. The woman serving downstairs warned me that I 'would be surprised to see they didn't have much'.
Was tempted to give her a knowing nod and mention Dave Walker's name but decided I didn't want to get into an argument with lurking Brewer bros and left.
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Most Holy Theotokos pray for us!
Posts: 1469 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Seeker963
Shipmate
# 2066
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Collins:
Went to the SSG/SPCK in Worcester a few days ago. Friendly staff, very helpful. Popped up stairs to find most of the shelves empty. The woman serving downstairs warned me that I 'would be surprised to see they didn't have much'.
Ah, I was there on Friday. Walked upstairs to the first floor (where the Good Stuff used to be!) without being warned to find most of the shelves empty. Thought of taking a photo but decided it would be rude.
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"People waste so much of their lives on hate and fear." My friend JW-N: Chaplain and three-time cancer survivor. (Went to be with her Lord March 21, 2010. May she rest in peace and rise in glory.)
Posts: 4152 | From: Northeast Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001
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Amazing Grace
High Church Protestant
# 95
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andreas1984:
It explains the bizarre idea that buying unused churches would somehow fill them with faithful...
Actually, no, being American per se doesn't explain that. Being a megalomaniac might ![[Biased]](wink.gif) .
Sounds like this fellow is running up against the different business, social, and news cultures in the UK, and a good thing, too. "That ain't no way to run a railroad," as we say in the US (meaning, "Any fool can see that those people don't know how to run their own business").
It is customary in the US for a congregation to meet in makeshift spaces until they are able to afford their own premises, instead of the way this chappie seems to be going about it.
The poster's point that the US is a big country with a lot of people and we don't all think alike is a good one to keep in mind. Avoiding overbroad generalizations is a good way to keep discussion on-track and civilized.
Charlotte
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WTFWED? "Remember to always be yourself, unless you suck" - the Gator
Memory Eternal! Sheep 3, Phil the Wise Guy, and Jesus' Evil Twin in the SoF Nativity Play
Posts: 6593 | From: Sittin' by the dock of the [SF] bay | Registered: Jul 2003
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
I was in SPCK Westminster yesterday lunchtime.
Sadly the St Stephen the Great links seem to have become more pronounced since I was last in there (Nov/Dec last year). The shop has also become Orthodox focused, though in fairly subtle ways (it's always had, I think, links to the Orthodox Community in London). There's now a poster saying that contributions can be made to the S.StG closed Church fund and Prinknash Incense has now been replaced by that produced by the (Orthodox) monastery in Brookwood Cemetary (I think. ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif) )
It still has a wide range of Anglican/RC books in its stock (as well as a well stocked second hand section which is nice!) However, the range of Ikons* and Holy Medals on sale now reflects more Orthodox tastes/needs.
Thankfully the staff remain the same, for the timebeing, though it would be interesting to know what their take on the transfer of SPCK to S.StG has been.
* The Agate Ikons on sale look quite nice, in a kitsch sort of way.
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
Posts: 2838 | From: Gone shoreside | Registered: Dec 2001
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear J Whitgift
Now, I am no fan of Mark Brewer (to say the least!) but I find your post strangely ungenerous. You concede that there is still a wide range of Anglican and Roman Catholic books on sale but why should you be surprised that there are now more Orthodox items on sale and more icons? Trying to shoe-horn Orthodox material into Christian bookshops has been well nigh impossible for many years, notwithstanding buoyant sales from Orthodox distributors (mainly large parish operations and mail order).
By the way have you ever compared Prinknash incense and Orthodox incense? No contest!
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
Father Gregory
I apologise if my post seems ungenerous, it was not intended to be so, I was merely trying to describe what I saw. However, I agree in retrospect that description may have fallen into decrying a necessary shift in emphasis, given the change of owner.
Having experienced Orthodox incense only on one occasion* I cannot properly comment. I merely wanted to note the change in supplier. I have tried Prinknash, in my flat ... it smells very nice, though as others have commented, it's designed to fill a large Church, not a small flat. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I agree that there are hardly any Orthodox suppliers (in London). SPCK Westminster (and interestingly Church House Bookshop) always seemed to buck that trend with a well stocked Orthodox book section and a good selection of Iconography. I am pleased, that having changed hands, the range of books (from Orthodox, RC and AC) remains very good ... they even had Ken Leech's book 'Soul Friend' on prominent display. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
My comment on the Icons was not meant to be rude. I love Iconography, both as in their role in devotion (and for what they mean) but also for their artistic style. It seems to me sad that the Agate Icons were on such prominent display, when far nicer ones are available elsewhere.
It would seem that, given the earlier comments on this thread about S.StG's take over of SPCK, the shop Westminster has managed this transition very well, with little or no fuss.
J Whitgift.
* From Mount Athos, at St Matthew's, Westminster. I cannot begin to describe the smell that was produced.
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
Posts: 2838 | From: Gone shoreside | Registered: Dec 2001
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GreyFace
Shipmate
# 4682
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Posted
I don't think anybody would consider it unreasonable of SSG to introduce more Orthodox materials into the SPCK, and in fact when the takeover was announced I remember thinking that this might be a good use for some of the shelves currently being used to sell new-agey fluffy-bunny rubbish
The problems seem to have been two-fold. First, there are reports of SSG/SPCK shops having to stop supplying non-Orthodox materials, which is very different from the above and might be seen by some as an attempt to stamp out the vile British heresies of the West (probably generally unwelcome) rather than to enhance British Christianity by Orthodox influence (probably very welcome). Second, poor management of staff relations and changes in conditions resulting in widespread resignations.
J Whitgift appears to be reporting that things are not that bad at Westminster and at least on the surface are much more positive.
[cross-posted]
[ 17. January 2008, 09:53: Message edited by: GreyFace ]
Posts: 5748 | From: North East England | Registered: Jul 2003
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Dear J Whitgift
Thank you for yoir most generous clarification. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
There is much in Ken Leech from which the Orthodox can profit - with discernment. I still refer to his "True God."
[ 17. January 2008, 09:55: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Teufelchen
Shipmate
# 10158
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Posted
As an aside, does starbelly or anyone else know whether the illegal contracts (and resulting constructive dismissals) have been reported to BERR (formerly the DTI)?
T.
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Little devil
Posts: 3894 | From: London area | Registered: Aug 2005
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Hel
Shipmate
# 5248
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Posted
I told my mum about the SSG takeover when I first came across this thread last year as she uses the Carlisle branch of SPCK a lot. She asked the shop assistant about it when she went in earlier this week and he was reduced to tears explaining what was happening, poor man.
He said that they were now making a significant loss and he felt the shop wouldn't last much longer, and was hoping it would be sold off as an independent shop and possible built up to be successful again.
Posts: 667 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Nov 2003
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Margaret
Shipmate
# 283
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Posted
I wonder if SSG are beginning to reconsider their policies? A friend of mine goes to the Truro branch every so often, and he was told last year that they were no longer going to stock the votive candles which he used to buy. The staff were unhappy about the changes and left in a body on Christmas Eve.
He tried going in again yesterday and though there seemed to be only one person on duty she was helpful - and told him that they were now re-ordering the candles. It sounds as if the management may have noticed something.
Posts: 2456 | From: West Midlands UK | Registered: May 2001
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hel:
... she uses the Carlisle branch of SPCK a lot...
I would be sorry to see that branch go. It's not my nearest Christian bookshop, but I have always found the staff there efficient, knowledgeable and customer friendly. They tend to remember who you and are unfailingly helpful in the process of ordering and sending out purchases made by phone.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
It sounds as though the change-over was very badly handled.
Father Gregory made an important point yesterday that there are virtually no suppliers of Orthodox good on the high street. Therefore the SSG takeover of SPCK now means that there is now at least some coverage of this field, albeit still very limited. I think that remains an inportant point, if not as major a one as the way in which the staff felt they were treated.
It's no necessarily change that is the problem but the way in which that change is managed. As was noted earlier in the thread, the changeover from SPCK to SSG caused a large number of staff to leave their employment (en masse). Perhaps if the changeover had been managed better then these difficulties wouldn't have arisen, and we'd now have an Orthodox managed shop selling ecclesiastical goods. That said, the SPCK in Westminster does not seem to have been badly affected by the changeover, with little no change in stock or staff other than a shift from Prinknash incense to Orthodox suppliers. Most importantly of all (from my perspective) was that the secondhand section remained in situ. Whilst the internet is good for finding out of print books quickly, there's nothing to compare with the mini-epiphany of finding a long-sought after tome in a secondhand bookshop!
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
Posts: 2838 | From: Gone shoreside | Registered: Dec 2001
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Staff in Norwich fired by e-mail. Apparently other centres have similar experiences
I think it may clarify matters if this part of the article is included:
quote:
Norwich manager Jim Channell, who has lost his job, said: "All the staff were fired today by e-mail for not signing new employment contracts which were offered to them.* [...]"
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The rejected new staff employment contracts included a ban on any pay for overtime and that no events could be held at the Resource Centre which were not in Eastern Orthodox-style.
[* Emphasis mine.]
Whilst dismissal by e-mail does seem rather off (Presumably the staff have to serve a notice period, say 30 days?) In the defence of SSG the sacked staff did refuse to sign new employment contracts.
I visited the Westminster SPCK a while back and chatted with one of the staff members about the transfer of ownership to SSG. They didn't seem bothered by the move (and certainly hadn't experienced the ruptions which other branches have).
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
Posts: 2838 | From: Gone shoreside | Registered: Dec 2001
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Rev per Minute
Shipmate
# 69
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J Whitgift:
Whilst dismissal by e-mail does seem rather off (Presumably the staff have to serve a notice period, say 30 days?) In the defence of SSG the sacked staff did refuse to sign new employment contracts.
They refused to sign the contracts because they were illegal contracts under English law, but the Brewers refused to accept this fact. The terms they offered were ridiculous, including working Sundays not only in the bookshops but in the Orthodox churches/communities linked to the Brewers. They created 'zero hours' contracts which, while probably not illegal, meant significantly worse conditions for the staff. There is no defence of the SSG that makes sense in this context.
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"Allons-y!" "Geronimo!" "Oh, for God's sake!" The Day of the Doctor
At the end of the day, we face our Maker alongside Jesus. RIP ken
Posts: 2696 | From: my desk (if I can find the keyboard under this mess) | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It is probably not a good idea to speculate on a public website, but I think I can safely say that the full nature of the contracts of employment on offer, and the options presented to staff, may very well be a major issue in itself.
Any management in this country has to take into account employment legislation, grounds for dismissal, compensation, etc.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by J Whitgift:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Staff in Norwich fired by e-mail. Apparently other centres have similar experiences
I think it may clarify matters if this part of the article is included:
quote:
Norwich manager Jim Channell, who has lost his job, said: "All the staff were fired today by e-mail for not signing new employment contracts which were offered to them.* [...]"
...
The rejected new staff employment contracts included a ban on any pay for overtime and that no events could be held at the Resource Centre which were not in Eastern Orthodox-style.
[* Emphasis mine.]
Whilst dismissal by e-mail does seem rather off (Presumably the staff have to serve a notice period, say 30 days?) In the defence of SSG the sacked staff did refuse to sign new employment contracts.
Depending on the terms of the new contracts offered, insisting that staff signed such contracts might amount to constructive dismissal of staff who resigned rather than sign, and dismissal for refusal to sign new contracts might amount to unfair dismissal.
Posts: 3374 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
BroJames, thanks for the clarification. My understanding of employment Law is approximately nil, which is why I'm a member of a Union.
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
Posts: 2838 | From: Gone shoreside | Registered: Dec 2001
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Audrey Ely
Shipmate
# 12665
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Posted
A colleague tells me that the London SPCK in Westminster is to close. He said when you telephone this shop they no longer answer the telephone with the words 'SPCK' but answer something like 'St Stephens'.
Thank you,
Audrey
Posts: 1432 | From: Cambridgeshire, England | Registered: May 2007
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Dave Walker
Contributing Editor
# 14
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Posted
The situation has developed swiftly over the last couple of days. On Friday an announcement was made that the Cambridge and Canterbury shops were to close, Cambridge immediately. Signs were placed on the doors saying that the shops are closed for a refit.
Yesterday the staff at the Sheffield, Lincoln and Norwich shops were all fired by e-mail and the shops closed. Several other shops, including Bristol, Salisbury and (I think) Exeter now have reduced opening hours.
The Sheffield closure follows an exchange of press releases with the cathedral authorities. They remain, to my knowledge, the only church institution who have been willing to make any kind of statement throughout the whole saga.
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Cartoon blog / @davewalker
Posts: 1045 | Registered: Apr 2001
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starbelly
but you can call me Neil
# 25
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Posted
Exeter hours have been reduced from 10am-5pm Tuesday-Saturday. The Norwich staff were indeed fired by email on Monday evening.
Posts: 6009 | From: High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire. | Registered: May 2001
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Custard
Shipmate
# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Wesley Owen are now stocking paschal candles, incense, wafers etc.
I suppose even evangelicals are prey to capitalism!
But I'd rather buy a paschal candle from a shop than risk its being damaged in the post.
Wesley Owen isn't especially evangelical - just look at some of the tripe they sell! SU were evangelical before Wesley Owen bought them.
As far as I can tell, they have pretty much always just followed market demand.
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blog
Adam's likeness, Lord, efface;
Stamp thine image in its place.
Posts: 4523 | From: Snot's Place | Registered: Jan 2004
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by starbelly:
Exeter hours have been reduced from 10am-5pm Tuesday-Saturday. The Norwich staff were indeed fired by email on Monday evening.
I very much hope that they were members of a Union and even if they were not, that they take up their case in the relevant legal ways.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Some current news.
Staff in Norwich fired by e-mail. Apparently other centres have similar experiences
I know some of the folks fired from the SPCK shop in Norwich, including some really long term servant-hearted people. The way this has been done has made me both very sad and very angry.
This sort of contract: "The rejected new staff employment contracts included a ban on any pay for overtime" (from the above link) makes my blood boil. Pure exploitation. A Christian organisation should be thoroughly ashamed of itself for contracts like that.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
100% agreed, Karl. It's more than just an embarassment...
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
Indeed we passed SPCK Cambridge today and all is darkness there (at least literally...) with a sign saying it will reopen after 'refitting'.
Later I bought a book on Reinhold Niebuhr - remember members of his congregation in Detroit were sacked by Henry Ford so the factory could be 'retooled'. The link / parallel was too obvious to avoid.
So which pious soul will be the first to invoke I Cor 6 against the former emplyees? ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
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"I am a sinful human being - why do you expect me to be consistent?" George Bebawi
"This is just unfocussed wittering." Ian McIntosh
Posts: 701 | From: Norwich | Registered: Jan 2003
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Echoes of Wycliffe, Charles Read? Some major differences, of course because of new ownership, but a lot more people involved and I guess some similar issues of principle at stake, as BroJames indicated.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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El Greco
Shipmate
# 9313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:A Christian organisation should be thoroughly ashamed of itself for contracts like that. [/QB]
Many people say they are Christians. I doubt if they have asked Christ if he agrees though...
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Ξέρω εγώ κάτι που μπορούσε, Καίσαρ, να σας σώσει.
Posts: 11285 | Registered: Apr 2005
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
Brewer ...
Forgive the excessive emoticons.
Let's face it, everyone is tiptoeing around this guy because he is a lawyer with substantial resources.
I keep on thinking ... what can I do ... particularly as an Orthodox Christian? I have no involvement with either the man or the shops. I can make no statement other than react to what others report, but when the precise details elude most of us I feel inhibited ... and I am not alone in that.
Even if it can be proved that he is abiding by employment law that wouldn't make his actions morally defensible from a Christian point of view. Perhaps this then is what I CAN say because it is my response as a Christian pastor and not a market commentator or journalist.
Orthodox is as Orthodox DOES. Orthopraxy proves Orthodoxy.
Mr. Brewer has embarrassed us Orthodox. If he were to present himself at my church he would not be allowed to receive Holy Communion.
I sincerely wish he would keep himself in Texas, disengage and never show himself here again.
The thing is ... if he is so "Orthodox" why does he not care what the Orthodox here actually think? Everyone in the Orthodox Church I speak to are as well. One of these to my knowledge has had it out with him, but he seems not to care. Figures.
[edited on request to remove potentially inappropriate comment - JH]
[ 07. February 2008, 21:09: Message edited by: John Holding ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Some current news.
Staff in Norwich fired by e-mail. Apparently other centres have similar experiences
I know some of the folks fired from the SPCK shop in Norwich, including some really long term servant-hearted people. The way this has been done has made me both very sad and very angry.
This sort of contract: "The rejected new staff employment contracts included a ban on any pay for overtime" (from the above link) makes my blood boil. Pure exploitation. A Christian organisation should be thoroughly ashamed of itself for contracts like that.
The treatment of those who work in the Norwich store, and the associated cafe, has been pretty scandalous. I believe they are unlikely to be allowed to stay in their redundant church-premises once their contract comes round for renewal
Oh, and they now no longer have any charcoal unless they have it centrally ordered specially. Or something. It's not that they're becoming more 'Orthodox', it's that they really are being run into the ground.
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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Leetle Masha
Cantankerous Anchoress
# 8209
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Posted
Who invited them to the U.K.? Or did the Brewers just take a lot of money over and use it to attract people? I read all the stuff about them and can't get to the bottom of it.
Seems to me, though, if some gov't agency similar to the S.E.C., or if some well-disposed lawyers in the U.S. or U.K. could be introduced to what these guys are really doing, they could be run outa town.
Sorry it's happening to you folks over there. I don't know why nobody showed them up for what they are before they even got started. If they tried something like that in Texas, they might not get away with it even there!
M
Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Well said Father G - and I think that your copy of that message on the Dave Walker blog may also have done some good.
I'm going to get involved locally in Norwich. Don't know what can be done yet to repair the damage and obtain justice. We'll see.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Father Gregory
Orthodoxy
# 310
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Posted
They invited themselves. Initially we thought we could work with them but after the Poole debacle (when he eased out our priest and gazumped our bishop) and with the gathering storms over the bookshops we withdrew our burnt fingers smartish.
On the matter of buying up redundant churches for example, he is so incredibly naive he just thinks he can open up and everybody will flock in. Well I'm sorry Mr. Brewer, this ain't Texas!
I think people at SPCK gave him too many second chances because apart from his bid and winding up it didn't look likely that there was a third option. We now hear the rustle of wigs but the damage has been already done.
[ 07. February 2008, 15:12: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]
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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™
Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Leetle Masha
Cantankerous Anchoress
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It made me sad to see that on account of the Brewers' actions the Orthodox are no longer welcome in Sheffield.
But for a Texas problem, the only thing is a Texas solution. If you need to get rid of a lawyer, you will need a bigger lawyer. I hope the wigs rustle pro bono, so that at least a little of the "Texas tea" can go into British pockets.
We had some "fast money" types come into our little town here and woo the town council with promises of a "whole new business section", but when they started to employ eminent domain to take over family-owned businesses that had been here for over 100 years, the business owners reared up on their hind legs: they simply got bigger lawyers and the speculators left town.
If the "jurisdiction" these people are "under" is aware, or can be made aware, of what they seem to be up to, perhaps too there might be a "hierarchical" solution....
But as you've so often reminded us, the Orthodox Church can survive such people.
M
[ 07. February 2008, 15:39: Message edited by: Leetle Masha ]
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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner
Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leetle Masha:
It made me sad to see that on account of the Brewers' actions the Orthodox are no longer welcome in Sheffield.
LM it seems that it is the Brewers who are saying that the Orthodox aren't welcome in Sheffield. It's not the good people of Sheffield, their Clergy, Cathedral or the Anglican Diocese who's making this statement. I assume you are basing your comments on the Brewers' press release of 29 January, and linked to on Dave Walker's blog:
quote:
The Sheffield Diocese has been engaged in a campaign against Orthodox Christians and those who would “further Orthodox mission.” The Diocese hopes to drive SSG out of business because SSG has an Orthodox “aim.”
This accusation was later rebuffed by Canon Dr Joanne Grenfell in a statement, which can be found on the same page as the Brewers' statement, under reference. (I'd imagine that the Cathedral is responding to the behaviour of the Brewers'/SSG in particular, not Orthodox Christendom in South Yorkshire or elsewhere. Father Gregory has been very clear on this fact.)
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
Posts: 2838 | From: Gone shoreside | Registered: Dec 2001
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Leetle Masha
Cantankerous Anchoress
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Thanks, J Whitgift.... that's something.
Whatcha gonna do...every church has its bad apples. That still doesn't make it right or even thrifty to let apples spoil, though.
Best, Mary
Any chance of gettin' 'em on some violation of Fair Trade practices? That'd stop 'em in their tracks, since no one can conduct a business for any length of time if it draws bad publicity for bamboozling honest people.
Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004
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Arrietty
Ship's borrower
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I don't think anyone with any sense would see this guy as a representative of Orthodoxy, Leetle Masha.
Smells more like rampant capitalism to me.
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i-church
Online Mission and Ministry
Posts: 6634 | From: Coventry, UK | Registered: May 2001
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Leetle Masha
Cantankerous Anchoress
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quote:
representative of Orthodoxy
Not any more , at least....
Best, Mary
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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner
Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
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I am pleased to see the responses to Father Gregory's message on Dave Walker's blog. Particularly from those who have suffered hurt.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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J Whitgift
Pro ecclesia dei!
# 1981
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According to Dave Walker's invaluable blog/Save SPCK campaign the former SPCK staff weren't sacked by e-mail. Rather, in the words of a statement issued by the Brewer's:
quote:
"We have recently completed new contract consultations throughout the charity. Unfortunately, certain persons have chosen to terminate their employment rather than agree to the new contract. This is a matter of the employees’ personal and individual choice; it is not the action of the charity."
So that's all right then.
According to the blog, the shops seem to be either returning unsold stock to their suppliers or liquidating their stock at remainder prices. (This seems like a strange move, espcially as books are now sold through the web - and givent he opening of their web franchise, see below.) This and the selling of SSG franchises does not bode well for the future of SPCK/SSG as a retailer seems in doubt. However, they are continuing to sell books through Amazon.com (the US Amazon, not the UK version). This is under the auspices of 'Third Space Books'.
I may well pop down to the SPCK Westminster to see what is happening there. (They are in a fairly auspicious position, having both a good shop/stock, as well as being one amongst many other theological bookshops in the area.)
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On the issue of homosexuality the Liberals have spent their time thinking, considering and listening (in the spirit of the Windsor process), whereas Conservative Anglicans have used the time to further dig their feet in and become more intransigent.
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