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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kerygmania: EXODUS - Second Thoughts (Bible nonstop)
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
No, having a slew of names is in the rich biblical tradition! Especially pun-based names... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
In Exodus 15:25 - 26, God appears to be addressing Moses directly: the masculine singular form of verbs and pronouns is being used in the Hebrew (and Greek) text. All the English versions I took a look at translate this with the plural form ("them", etc.), on the assumption that the referent was intended to be the people as a whole. No doubt that would be the case, even if Moses is the direct referent, considering that he was an intermediary between God and people. Still, I like the fact that the text makes it plain that Moses is being included in all of that: he, too, is subject to the conditions of citizenship.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
When I went looking for the meaning of Elim, I found a suggestion that the El- bit might refer to God, but the -im was unknown.
Nigel, I'm glad you did the next section: the convenant. I was thinking around that - as you can tell from the way I went looking to find out the origins of the place names and hadn't quite worked out how to play it.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
I confess to neglecting the Exodus thread mightily; I was involved in a conference (more of an oversight thing) and it suddenly became much more active and demanding than I expected it to be or it was meant to me (harrumph).
So I'm just having such a grand time now, sitting down and reading through all the entries I missed! Especially Nigel's And there was evening and there was morning, the bird day entry! my my my!!! And the song after crossing the Red Sea! I'm so delighted, you guys are so spiffy and dandy and wonderful!!!
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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churchgeek
Have candles, will pray
# 5557
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Posted
In yesterday's lectionary text, taken from Exodus 16.1-15, the NRSV (which biblegateway doesn't offer) uses the word "complaining" a lot. E.g. - in v. 7, where God hears the people's "complaining", or "grumbling", as other translations have it.
Does anyone know, does the Hebrew have the same negative connotation, or could it also be more like "complaint" - something which could be a legitimate complaint? It seems to me that starving is a legitimate complaint.
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I reserve the right to change my mind.
My article on the Virgin of Vladimir
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:
God hears the people's "complaining", or "grumbling", as other translations have it.
Does anyone know, does the Hebrew have the same negative connotation, or could it also be more like "complaint" - something which could be a legitimate complaint? It seems to me that starving is a legitimate complaint.
Sounds pretty negative to me. Here's murmurings and murmur; what do you think?
I think the challenge for the Jews in the wilderness --and for us-- is to come into agreement with God. It's hard to really imagine that situation, being miraculously delivered from Egypt (and from the plagues that assaulted Egypt), through the divided sea (which, however deep, is deep enough to drown Pharaoh's army) - all these extraordinary things.
So how likely is it that the God who did this work is going to let the million-plus of them starve in the desert? God reiterates (and it's easy for us because we've got the scriptures, we can read the whole thing and catch the over-arching themes quite readily) "for My Name's sake," that His Name will be glorified in the heavens and the earth. So clearly rescuing the Jews from Pharaoh only to have them die in the desert does nothing to glorify His Name therefore He won't allow it.
So, somehow, there is a way that the Jews in the desert could have petitioned God and asked for His provision; likewise, we can approach our needs in a way that reminds God of His promises to us ("I will never leave you or forsake you," for instance, or "consider the lilies of the field...") and then looks in a state of expectation for His provision.
Attitude seems to be a really big theme through a lot of the book of Exodus... it makes me look at myself and ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
{bump}
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
I just had a couple of thoughts after working from the Tanakh for our latest installment...
First off, the bit in 32:18 is set apart as if it were a chunk of poetry or something. Was that an ancient aphorism?
Second, how big was that calf? My understanding is that gold is fairly heavy stuff even by itself, so it seems that Moses (per 32:20) would've needed something like Hulk-strength to heft it, burn it, powder it, stew it and serve it in such sequence. Stopping and thinking certainly makes those terse verses seem much more impressive!
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
...the bit in 32:18 is set apart as if it were a chunk of poetry or something. Was that an ancient aphorism?
It fits quite well as the type of speech associated with exclamation or declaration in semitic languages. Rather than there being a two-way split between prose and poetry (something often assumed to exist in western languages), the spoken language can be quite fluid along an axis from more prosaic to more poetic. Here, as elsewhere in direct discourse quote in the bible, when someone wants to make a declaration, they strip the vocabulary down to basics, especially cutting out verbs, and make use of parallelisms. Moses' speech in verse 18 would have been prompted by Joshua's equally strident opening (verse 16):
“War noise in the camp!” (qol milchamah bamachneh!)
...probably shouted in alert. To which Moses grimly responds:-
“No victory songs and no defeat laments; just songs is what I hear.”
It's as though Joshua gets set to grab his weapons and devote anything in his path to the Lord, but Moses makes a solemn realisation of the truth of what they are hearing.
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
...how big was that calf?
One suggestion I've read is that this was plated gold around a (wooden?) structure. Whatever it was, the episode develops with humour on the part of the story teller!
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
NigelM, Just how long did it take you to think up the feck - feckless punning?
Sometimes I think it needs a great deal of reck.
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
So...is it really true that the Hebrew in the most-recently copied section of Exodus implies that God showed his rump to Moses while passing by? It's a joke I've heard before, though the NRSV translates it as "back."*
* Granted, this is the same translation that, I'm told, when encountering a Greek equivalent to "shit," opts for "rubbish."
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
Yes, I've heard that link made, too. I suspect that I've also heard a number of evangelical preachers preach from the passage in ways that try to avoid making any such link, while making it look as though they never even thought of that link! Save the blushes and pass the offering plate.
I don't actually think there is an attempt in the text to make a sneaky connection to the rear end of a deity. The noun in Ex. 33:23, used as it is in the plural construct form, is achor (= אחוֹר) and is used elsewhere simply to denote the rear of a three-dimensional object – no particular part, just the whole of that rear – as in the back of a building as opposed to the front. The nether regions of a human or animal are just one part of that rear when it refers to creatures, but those regions are not being referred to specifically.
There are a couple of Hebrew words that do denote the buttocks and which could have been used, but weren't:
1] sheth (= שֵּׁת). It crops up in two texts (NIV translation) – 2 Sam. 10:4 (“So Hanun seized David's men, shaved off half of each man's beard, cut off their garments in the middle at the buttocks, and sent them away”); and Isa. 20:4 (“so the king of Assyria will lead away stripped and barefoot the Egyptian captives and Cushite exiles, young and old, with buttocks bared—to Egypt's shame”).
2] miphsah (= מפשׂעה), occurring in 1 Chron. 19:4, the equivalent of the 2 Sam. 10:4 passage above, but using a different word for 'buttocks.'
It is possible that sheth is also used figuratively in Ps. 11:3 to connote 'foundations' (“When the foundations are destroyed, what can the godly accomplish?”). The word there may not necessarily be the same sheth, though.
So I think it's safe to sit through a sermon on this passage without feeling squeamish. Keep an eye on the preacher, though, to see if he or she turns red. Behold! The cheeks of a man reveal the inner heart!
That's not a biblical proverb, by the way, though perhaps it should have been.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
{bump}
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
Well, that's the Exodus. Where to now? Shall we continue linearly through Leviticus (famous for bogging down so many youthful efforts to read the bible cover to cover,) or shall we break the line and move onto something else?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Break it and go to something that's got more than a wee dram of narrative in it. The thought of trying to be witty with endless layers of laws makes me .
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
There is an enticing challenge in trying to make books like Leviticus light-hearted! Also, I guess if a book like Leviticus is one that causes most Christian eyes to glaze over, then there might be an onus on us to try and explain the layout in more modern ways.
However, 27 chapters-worth could very easily cause a person to become unclean.
We don't really get historical again (rather than hysterical) until Joshua, do we? Is that the place to go next?
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
Would it be possible to try to run two threads at once?
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
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Lynn MagdalenCollege
Shipmate
# 10651
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nigel M:
There is an enticing challenge in trying to make books like Leviticus light-hearted! ...<snip>...
We don't really get historical again (rather than hysterical) until Joshua, do we? Is that the place to go next?
I'm a big fan of the Hebrew scriptures and I'd be reluctant to see a light-hearted treatment of Leviticus simply because the weight of gravity can pull it into mockery and that strikes me as risky.
Joshua would be interesting. So would Proverbs, in a very different way! I'll keep an eye out for what y'all choose to run with...
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Erin & Friend; Been there, done that; Ruth musical
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
The Comic Torah handles Leviticus with admirable panache - and a (liberal) Jewish reverence. Tells it like it is, in fact, and I guess God should be able to take it even if some Christians couldn't. ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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In other words, just because I made it all up, doesn't mean it isn't true (Reginald Hill)
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
Now that's the sort of Levitical interpretation that makes one think!
There's a range of approaches to the type of texts one finds in Leviticus and her sister acts. One could simply use synonyms for words currently found in assorted English versions; one could present the material in a court-room setting, within a legal framework; one could take the oral tradition route - how the material might have been told in a family setting before it was recorded in its final written form. I think all of these are valid paraphrases.
What, for example, would be the background to, and significance of, the burnt offering procedure in Lev. 1? Asking these type of questions* could start the journey on the way to re-presenting the material to a 21st century audience, engrossed in game consoles and 24 hour news channels.
* The questions grow in the thinking: Just what kind of animal are we talking about? Why a male? What is this 'atonement' all about? Why is there a process that is acceptable to the Lord - what was going on that was not acceptable? What is the point of 'blood'? Who had the job of cleaning up the mess afterwards?
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
OK, it's been a few days, and mostly because I'm somewhat OCD and also because the idea of making Leviticus funny (and I don't mean in a mocking sense) is very tempting.
I might suggest rather than simply line by lining trying to explain the history or possible applications of various rules.
Since nothing is happening now, I'm tempted to start a new thread, but I don't want to drive anyone away since it's apparent that not everyone wants to go that way.
[ 07. February 2010, 02:33: Message edited by: Bullfrog. ]
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
I'll be happy to go with whatever you want, Bullfrog - Law, Writings or Prophets!
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
It is begun. Help would be greatly appreciated. One hopes one did not take too many liberties with the beginning.
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Well done, Bullfrog! I respect y'all taking on this challenge...
Thus endeth Exodus ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
Kelly Alves
Kerygmania Host
[ 15. February 2010, 05:01: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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