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Source: (consider it) Thread: Eccles: The Liturgy of the Liberal Catholic Church
Bishops Finger
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St. Raphael's almost looks as if it might have been some sort of retail outlet once.

We used to have a tiny little LCC church near here - I believe it started off as some sort of workshop. It has since been renovated and is now a most beautiful Orthodox Church, which, of course, needs no space-devouring pews!

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Eddy
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Good point Bishops F - it does look like a shop or something.

Its curious that you knew of the Lib Cats. near you but no longer, the Bournemouth one in the photo looks closed and Leo says theres a closed one his way. These are in not big cities it seems to me and suggests the LCC was once much bigger.

Our good friend Google came up with
a photo of a Letchworth Liberal Catholic Church. I think this is a breakaway from the established Liberal catholic Church though.

And also this curious website - with priests pics etc.

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Bishops Finger
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Laetare, what makes you think the (rather nice) church at Letchworth is a breakaway from the 'established' LCC, whatever that may be exactly (they seem to be somewhat fissiparous)?

The impression one gets from the internet is of a number of several very small groups, perhaps with some features in common, but with little to say to each other!

BTW, wasn't there a MW Report from a Liberal Catholic church many moons ago?

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Eddy
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Thanks Bishops Finger and whoops! I made a mistake in my last post.

I meant to say I thought THIS was a breakaway group from the LCC, not the Letchworth one. This little group certainly don't have churches cos it says on that website:
"All the oratories listed below are in private homes. As these are not public buildings please contact the priest or custodian beforehand to ensure there is adequate space."

But where on the web is the Liberal Catholic Church UK? [Confused]

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Bishops Finger
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Depends whether you want the Liberal Catholic Church International, the Reformed Liberal Catholic Church, the Liberal Catholic Apostolic Church......I said they were fissiparous!

I can't find a list of churches, either. I tried Geograph for photos - the result was just two (Bournemouth and Letchworth)!

The Letchworth church (St. Alban's) is really quite a neat and attractive little building, and I would love to know what it looks like inside.

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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northender
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CORRECTION
All Saints LCC in London was indeed a real church building, bought off someone else. Even came with a real pipe organ. So that address I gave must be for some other group.

The website with all the disparate groups is run by the head of one of the women ordaining breakaway groups. He tends to remember somewhat larger than life. The official LCC requested that they not be mentioned on that site, without success.

Laurence

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Max.
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
The covenant on my first house precluded me from burning lime or brewing alcohol on the premises, and from using a steam road locomotive (and also, IIRC, from holding religious meetings)!

I know that the house next door to mine has a covenant stopping members of the Church of England or the Free Churches from conducting religious services in the chapel (which is now no longer a chapel but is a badminton court and a cinema)


Max.

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Mamacita

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[Picturing BF getting all liquored up and driving a train around the garden. Sorry. Carry on.]

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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.

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Sir Pellinore
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Northender, dunno if you've come across the book 'Other Temples, Other Gods' by Neville Drury and Greg Something? Absolutely fascinating about the Occult in Australia. An enormous amount on the LCC; Theosophy and other interesting stuff.

I must say you seem to have survived your departure from the LCC with a sense of humour. I would imagine many of its adherents taking it, including the Blavatskian Eastern overtones, dreadfully seriously.

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Well...

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Laetare:
I think Bishop's Finger has a good point there.

Here is a photo of the Bournemouth Liberal Catholic Church.

It seems to be an addition to a house. I cant see much full liturgy happening in that space - but mind you I'm sure some shipmates can tell stories liturgies in front rooms with lots of clergy / acolytes!

What puzzles me is I cannt find, and no one has pointed to, the Lib Cath Church website with churches / HQ etc in the UK.

I've been in there - some years back when it was open during the week. It is quite roomy inside as it has few chairs - enough room for celebrant and 3 servers.

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:



BTW, wasn't there a MW Report from a Liberal Catholic church many moons ago?

Ian J.

It was St Raphael's in Berkeley.

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--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Bishops Finger
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Thank you for that, Father.

It struck me whilst re-reading the Report what a dismal future that LCC parish must face if they can only muster a congregation of 3 at their main weekly service (in fact, the website seems to imply that Mass is no longer celebrated regularly).

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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The Scrumpmeister
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I found the last paragraph on this page particularly interesting.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Bishops Finger
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In what way, Michael?

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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The Scrumpmeister
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It just made me smile.

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Doublethink.
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Married Catholic bishop ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Bishops Finger
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[Hot and Hormonal]

Ah. I see.

And possibly the veiled implication as to the proper place of wimmin in the church?

I'll get me coat..........

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Eddy
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I know I keep asking this but where in England is there a regulalrly worshipping Liberal catholic Church? (I'm thinking of the original LCC not breakaways, but any would do!).

And where is there web presence??

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The Scrumpmeister
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It wasn't either of those things, really, as much as it was that the bishop's wife was also his crosier-bearer, and that this reminded me of a friend's account of visiting another vagantes group, where the altar was set up on the Sunday morning by the priest's wife spreading a doily on the table. The fact that her name is Freda just adds to the homely effect.

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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis

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Eddy
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Michael, you call this LCC a vagantes group. Now I don't disagree but I wonder what makes a group a vagantes group and what makes them not a vagantes group?

I think thats a bit of a tangent, but I hope its OK.

The Liturgy of the LCC seems quite grand and the church has loads of orsers of mionistry, but it only seems to have small buildings - if it in fact has any in England. maybe thats a cause for its decline.

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Bishops Finger
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I begin to suspect that the Liberal Catholic churches (in their various manifestations) actually have no public services in the UK. It seems as though you have to contact their clergy to either find out times and places, or else to virtually make an appointment to attend worship.

See

http://www.crossdenominationalmission.org.uk/liberalcatholic.html

for a list of LCC groups (the Well Chapel and Young Rite sites are interesting).

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Bishops Finger
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I should have said that not all churches listed on that page are recognised by the others! The Young Rite is one, and I'm none too sure how the Well Chapel fits into the LCC scene either.

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
I know I keep asking this but where in England is there a regulalrly worshipping Liberal catholic Church? (I'm thinking of the original LCC not breakaways, but any would do!).

And where is there web presence??

There is one in Liverpool (with a minimal web presence). It definitely exists (I know the priest), but I've no idea whether anyone apart from the priest and his wife turns up for the advertised services.

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dj_ordinaire
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Really? Where were the group who were MWed a few years ago? Were they in the States, I really can't recall.

A friend of mine was asked whether he'd like to be ordained by one of their bishops who was a friend of his - as he was already a CofE Reader, he was told he wouldn't need any more training... As he reported it, this would have involved a visit to their cathedral on the North Norfolk coast, which is apparently in a garden shed.

If their cathedral is a shed, that would suggest that the congregation might not be terribly large...

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Sir Pellinore
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I think they are, quite literally, dying out.

The curious mixture of Occult and supposed 'Christianity' is a wee bit outdated. Rather twee.

I suspect moderns who 'feel that way' incline to the so-called 'Gnostic' churches: none of which seem to have any link with historic Gnosticism.

Like the (still extant, surprisingly) Irvingite Catholic Apostolic Church they are IMO one of those curious mainly Anglo-Saxon manifestations of religious nuttiness: a bit like British Israel. [Ultra confused]

Of course 'they are all different' and it may be interesting for some to trace their roots and cross-fertilisation but they all seem a bit limp and wilted theologically and otherwise to me.

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Well...

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Michael, you call this LCC a vagantes group. Now I don't disagree but I wonder what makes a group a vagantes group and what makes them not a vagantes group?

I think thats a bit of a tangent, but I hope its OK.

The Liturgy of the LCC seems quite grand and the church has loads of orsers of mionistry, but it only seems to have small buildings - if it in fact has any in England. maybe thats a cause for its decline.

'Vagantes' means that their orders come from a 'wandering bishop' - i.e. one who is without a diocese (except for one that he has invented/created). He is in the tactile succession because hands have been laid on him by a validly ordained bishop. Vagantes groups make a big fuss about this sort of succession and often give you a list of predecessors going back to St. Peter.

Apostolic succession involves more than tactile succession - fidelity to the apostles' teaching and geographical involvement with a see.

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
the (still extant, surprisingly) Irvingite Catholic Apostolic Church

The Cathaps consist mainly of elderly people living in or near Gordon Square, London hoping to get inside Christ the King when Christ returns - he is due to sit on the throne there (it was their church before they sold it to the C of E).

They don't hold liturgies any more since they involved a huge dramatis personae and there aren't enough people to staff it.

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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
the (still extant, surprisingly) Irvingite Catholic Apostolic Church

The Cathaps consist mainly of elderly people living in or near Gordon Square, London hoping to get inside Christ the King when Christ returns - he is due to sit on the throne there (it was their church before they sold it to the C of E).

They don't hold liturgies any more since they involved a huge dramatis personae and there aren't enough people to staff it.

My understanding is that Christ the King, Gordon Square still belongs to the Catholic Apostolic Church and is rented to Forward in Faith. I think they still own the mothballed church in Maida Vale which was the last place they held services.
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leo
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I am not sure that that is the case. Before FiF were there, it was the Uni. Chaplaincy but the (then) new bishop of London closed it because it needed costly roof repairs. Had it not been owned by the C of E, the cost would not have been an issue.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
As he reported it, this would have involved a visit to their cathedral on the North Norfolk coast, which is apparently in a garden shed.

Sure it's not a mountain-top retreat lodge overlooking Skegness?

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Hooker's Trick

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For some reason I find it hilarious that there's a LCC church in Bideford of all places -- and 'Chalice House' no less!

This bit from their website is... curious:

quote:
The Grail Community was the first LCC Church in the UK to admit women to the five minor orders and has developed a unique service to Our Lady which is solely led by women. Sadly, our research over the years has not shown that the full consecration of the bread and the wine takes place or that the ability to receive the apostolic succession is possible whilst the person is in a female body.
What 'research' could one conduct to draw this conclusion? I'm also curious about the 'the person being in a female body'. Do they believe in reincarnation?
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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I am not sure that that is the case. Before FiF were there, it was the Uni. Chaplaincy but the (then) new bishop of London closed it because it needed costly roof repairs. Had it not been owned by the C of E, the cost would not have been an issue.

It is indeed owned by the Catholic Apostolic Church and leased to FiF.

Thurible

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uncletoby

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quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I am not sure that that is the case. Before FiF were there, it was the Uni. Chaplaincy but the (then) new bishop of London closed it because it needed costly roof repairs. Had it not been owned by the C of E, the cost would not have been an issue.

It is indeed owned by the Catholic Apostolic Church and leased to FiF.

Thurible

Is the whole thing leased to FiF, or just the English Chapel?

I think there are occasional organ recitals in the church, which provide an opportunity for the curious to see the interior.

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`` L--d! I cannot look at it ----

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aumbry
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
I am not sure that that is the case. Before FiF were there, it was the Uni. Chaplaincy but the (then) new bishop of London closed it because it needed costly roof repairs. Had it not been owned by the C of E, the cost would not have been an issue.

Isn't that called a repairing lease which requires the lessee to keep the property to a certain agreed standard?
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Eddy
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quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
For some reason I find it hilarious that there's a LCC church in Bideford of all places -- and 'Chalice House' no less!

This bit from their website is... curious:

quote:
The Grail Community was the first LCC Church in the UK to admit women to the five minor orders and has developed a unique service to Our Lady which is solely led by women. Sadly, our research over the years has not shown that the full consecration of the bread and the wine takes place or that the ability to receive the apostolic succession is possible whilst the person is in a female body.
What 'research' could one conduct to draw this conclusion? I'm also curious about the 'the person being in a female body'. Do they believe in reincarnation?
I read somewhere that they do believe in reincarnation, like some C of E vicars do.
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Thurible
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quote:
Originally posted by uncletoby:
Is the whole thing leased to FiF, or just the English Chapel?

The church proper isn't, AIUI. We have the English Chapel and a handful of rooms for offices, meeting rooms, etc.

Thurible

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Sir Pellinore
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Many thanks Leo; Aumbry and Thurible for that information about the Cathaps in London.

I found the late Gavin Maxwell's reminiscences of them absolutely fascinating.

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Well...

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dj_ordinaire
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quote:
Originally posted by Hooker's Trick:
For some reason I find it hilarious that there's a LCC church in Bideford of all places -- and 'Chalice House' no less!

This bit from their website is... curious:

quote:
The Grail Community was the first LCC Church in the UK to admit women to the five minor orders and has developed a unique service to Our Lady which is solely led by women. Sadly, our research over the years has not shown that the full consecration of the bread and the wine takes place or that the ability to receive the apostolic succession is possible whilst the person is in a female body.
What 'research' could one conduct to draw this conclusion? I'm also curious about the 'the person being in a female body'. Do they believe in reincarnation?
That's.... really odd!

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Flinging wide the gates...

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Low Treason
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The Liberal Catholic Church and all it's similar organisations are part of an enormously rich and complex dynasty issuing from the episcopi vagantes of the late 19th Century.

They range from the mildly eccentrics such as the LCC herein mentioned Then there are the mad, such as Bishop Sean Manchester (who believes there are vampires and werewolves in Highgate Cemetery) of the "Holy Grail Church" which appears to exist only in his own fevered imagination. The website makes those Rapturists look as sane as the Royal College of Psychiatrists.

There are also (or have been) the bad - in fact the Very Bad Indeed, such as the notorious Roger Gleaves, 'Bishop of Medway' of evil memory.

Almost all of them seem to have a very similar mindset which includes a liking for arcane titles, dressing up in pretty vestments and inventing strange dogmas and a habit of claiming degrees from various bogus 'universities'.

As far as I know, no-one has done a proper study since Henry Brandreth (Episopi Vagantes and the Anglican Church) and Peter Anson (Bishops at Large) at least 50 years ago. Surely the time is ripe for an update?

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He brought me to the banqueting house, and His banner over me was love.

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Extol
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quote:
Originally posted by Low Treason:
As far as I know, no-one has done a proper study since Henry Brandreth (Episopi Vagantes and the Anglican Church) and Peter Anson (Bishops at Large) at least 50 years ago. Surely the time is ripe for an update?

Here is one. The author is himself a vagantes bishop, and this was his doctoral dissertation.

Here is another.

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Extol
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Here is one more. Apocryphile Press has a number of good titles in Old Catholic history--some old reprints, some good new studies.
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Bishops Finger
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Bishop of Medway? Hmmm.......I wonder if the see is vacant......

[Two face]

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Bishops Finger
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Oh dear.

Having Googled Roger Gleaves....

[Hot and Hormonal]

Let that be a lesson to me not to attempt feeble jokes about people without finding out the facts.

Sincere apologies for any offence caused.

Ian J.

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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)

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Low Treason
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Gleaves was always referred to as the 'Bogus Bishop' in the press, but as I recall he may have had a connection with one of the more respectable autocephalous churches. However quite understandably, any reference to that
will have long since been very carefully obliterated!

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He brought me to the banqueting house, and His banner over me was love.

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Extol:
Here is one more. Apocryphile Press has a number of good titles in Old Catholic history--some old reprints, some good new studies.

The proprietor of Apocryphile is the (co-?)rector of Grace North Church in Berkeley, an odd little combination of vagans Old Catholicism and Episcopalianism--and, coincidentally (just to bring the discussion full circle), the place where St Raphael's LCC meets.

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--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Low Treason:
Gleaves was always referred to as the 'Bogus Bishop' in the press, but as I recall he may have had a connection with one of the more respectable autocephalous churches. However quite understandably, any reference to that
will have long since been very carefully obliterated!

I remember reading of some Old Catholic prelate or other in Chicago who was busted for running a male prostitution ring. Apparently, when he wasn't wearing a miter, he was running a chain of adult bookstores. Charming fellah.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Eddy
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I think this sort of thing - OTT fringe Catholic liturgy and murky moral practices can sometimes go together.

I guess such guys make themselves bishops so there arent the checks that there are for some others.

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Margaret

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I think Unitarians still remember Roger Gleaves with a shudder too - after prison the former Bishop decided to join them, and was well received until someone found out about his past record.
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Eddy
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Here is the Order for benediction of the Most Blessed Sacrament according to the Liberal Catholic Church.

There are some extra hymns in the rite and I don't know them or their tunes, I'd be interested to know if anyone else knows them, if not they may be unique to the LCC.

The words are pretty much as in normal Benediction but there are some alterations - seems mainly about Christ dwelling in us. Those who know about theology could explain, perhaps, what is being said there.

An odd verse in one hymn goes:

quote:
Ruth divine that givest heed
Unto every cry of need,
Healing balm to hearts that bleed,
Help us, holy Master.

What is 'Ruth divine'?
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leo
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The hymn goes on and on - silence would be better.

I assume there is a typo and it should be 'Truth divine...'

Why no Divine Praises, seeing as virtually everything else is the same as the old Benediction rite? Maybe they don't believe in the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption? (Odd, because they believe in Ascended Masters.)

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