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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: The Liturgy of the Liberal Catholic Church
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
Yes what a long hymn They seem to like set hymns in there worship.
I agree silence would be better. I dont know what tune theyd use for the hymn.
Did you see what I meant by different words in places maybe thats there different theology.
I didnt see what you meant though about ascended masters they arent in that liturgy, or did I miss something?
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Why no Divine Praises, seeing as virtually everything else is the same as the old Benediction rite? Maybe they don't believe in the Immaculate Conception or the Assumption? (Odd, because they believe in Ascended Masters.)
If memory serves correctly, the Divine Praises was never part of the old rite of Benediction. It was a common devotion that was often done but was not actually part of the rite.
[ 06. October 2009, 20:02: Message edited by: Michael Astley ]
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Quite right, Michael. Ritual Notes says 'The normal rite of Exposition and Benediction consists merely of the hymn Tantum Ergo , a versicle and response, and the collect for Corpus Christi.'
Anything else 'rests upon provincial or diocesan custom and is not universal....'.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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rudolf
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# 2995
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Posted
Sorry I didn't spot this thread earlier ...... Not sure if I have much to add - I found this list for the UK
http://www.change.freeuk.com/learning/relthink/libcatpersonnel.html
It is very fragmented, but the ones called LCC are the originals (not LCC in BI, or LCCI, or LCC new synod, or any of the others). I'm a little surprised at the lack of websites - there used to be one. I'm fairly sure that they own the Putney HQ, and the church in Tekels Park Camberley is owned by the Theosophical Society and is the Church's to use for as long as they want to (it is shared with the co-masons - Tekels Park in Camberley was bought by a group of Theosophical families in the 1930's, who built houses there in the woods, and built a church/masonic building and a guest house for events for all 3 organisations)
I've been to Putney several times and like the service a lot - I'm not really qualified ........ but from memory the rationale for it is that CW Leadbeater was a natural clairvoyant, and he observed that the elevation of the host released a spiritual light into the world, even if the priest was ignorant, just going through the motions, and with no-one else there.
The liturgy, vestures and songs of the LCC were chosen and developed to increase the power of the light released - CWL wrote a book called the "Science of the Sacraments" based on his observations. It is also based on "acting as if the angels are real" and when one follows that line, and if the priest and congregation are mindful of this and try to co-operate with it, then you get something like the LCC liturgy.
There is hardly any trace of Theosophy in the liturgy, but there is no mention of sin (Look with the eyes of love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon our shortcomings) which may show a Buddhist influence (???) (as there is only ignorance from the Buddhist POV)
There is an open altar, and many priests are married, though I'm not sure if the original LCC has ordination of women.
In its day, it was very advanced, and all the other churches were very rigid and often fixated on the sin aspects of life - the reforms in other churches mean they have now caught up to a great extent (!!???)
Hope this helps.
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How silently, how silently,
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
Rudolf thats very helpful, it is strange about lack of websites for the LCC. I was interested in your description about there worship, not many people here seem actually to have worshipped with them.
Your comments made me wonder what type of person is in their congregations because they must be a gathered lot, rather than like the c of e serving a parish.
I must confess I dont know much about Theosophy and its worship or co-masons, I guess google will help on that.
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rudolf
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Dear Eddy, In response to your original query about this verse
quote:
Thee we adore, O hidden Splendour, Thee,
Who in Thy Sacrament dost deign to be;
We worship Thee beneath this earthly veil,
And here Thy Presence we devoutly hail.
It may not be clear elsewhere, but this is sung to "Abide with me", which is lovely, I think. It is sung immediately after This is my Body and This is my Blood, immediately followed by the "Adeste fideles", then leading on to communion.
There is very little cross-over between the 3 movements now, but they all played interesting roles in the development of consciousness and all that- mostly the TS, which I know most about, but the LCC has also seeded a change, I feel. I know almost nothing about the Co-Free Masons, except that it is for men and women, but they do not meet together
For myself, I find the service a bit busy (though that is true of all services, I suspect) whereas I find meditation a bit quiet, so I tend to stick to singing the great masses in a choir, which works just as well for me.
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How silently, how silently,
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rudolf:
Dear Eddy, In response to your original query about this verse
quote:
Thee we adore, O hidden Splendour, Thee,
Who in Thy Sacrament dost deign to be;
We worship Thee beneath this earthly veil,
And here Thy Presence we devoutly hail.
It may not be clear elsewhere, but this is sung to "Abide with me", which is lovely, I think.
That's good to hear. It really wouldn't work to Adoro te devote .
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Fr Cuthbert
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# 3953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Treason:
Gleaves was always referred to as the 'Bogus Bishop' in the press, but as I recall he may have had a connection with one of the more respectable autocephalous churches. However quite understandably, any reference to that
will have long since been very carefully obliterated!
I remember reading of some Old Catholic prelate or other in Chicago who was busted for running a male prostitution ring. Apparently, when he wasn't wearing a miter, he was running a chain of adult bookstores. Charming fellah.
I know these groups can attract some unsavoury characters, but the dear old Church of England has its share too.
I remember a priest in Yorkshire who hit the papers when he went to run a male brothel in Thailand.
I had relatives in Walthamstow where about 10 years ago a former forces chaplain hit the News of the World for all sorts of gay happenings!
Both were deprived (unfrocked) I think.
Somehow Anglo Catholicism has its fair share as well as Liberal Catholicism
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Low Treason
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# 11924
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Cuthbert:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Treason:
Gleaves was always referred to as the 'Bogus Bishop' in the press, but as I recall he may have had a connection with one of the more respectable autocephalous churches. However quite understandably, any reference to that
will have long since been very carefully obliterated!
I remember reading of some Old Catholic prelate or other in Chicago who was busted for running a male prostitution ring. Apparently, when he wasn't wearing a miter, he was running a chain of adult bookstores. Charming fellah.
I know these groups can attract some unsavoury characters, but the dear old Church of England has its share too.
I remember a priest in Yorkshire who hit the papers when he went to run a male brothel in Thailand.
I had relatives in Walthamstow where about 10 years ago a former forces chaplain hit the News of the World for all sorts of gay happenings!
Both were deprived (unfrocked) I think.
Somehow Anglo Catholicism has its fair share as well as Liberal Catholicism
Why only Anglo-Catholicism? I seem to recall some 'little problems' within the Roman Catholic church too....
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He brought me to the banqueting house, and His banner over me was love.
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by rudolf:
Dear Eddy, In response to your original query about this verse
quote:
Thee we adore, O hidden Splendour, Thee,
Who in Thy Sacrament dost deign to be;
We worship Thee beneath this earthly veil,
And here Thy Presence we devoutly hail.
It may not be clear elsewhere, but this is sung to "Abide with me", which is lovely, I think.
That's good to hear. It really wouldn't work to Adoro te devote .
Doesn't it work well, oddly, to Abide with me?
I'm getting the impression the Liberal Catholic Church was never very big, and now is fragmented and doesnt seem to have much going on and doesnt advertise itself much, so is unlikely ever to grow. I thinks thats sad as it seems it could have something to offer the church, and have a special part, like some other smaller groups.
They do seem to exist more in the US.
I am impressed that unity is through worship, and within that people may believe differently. Its good members dont have to sign up to the creeds. That helps seekers.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Seekers after what, precisely?
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
I'm surprised you don't get that Ian J.
It means those who are seeking after the truth and who consider themselves unsure about certain doctrines. They are like people standing at the door and unsure whether or not to come in. To come in they think they must accept certain creeds an beliefs.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Well, Our Lord Himself said 'Seek and ye shall find'. The vast numbers of people joining the LCC have clearly found what they're looking for.
No particular creeds or beliefs = nothing much for people to get their teeth into.
QED.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
A rather muddled argument Bishops F. People may have gone to LCC seeking and found something but then moved on guided by God.
Quakers are good people and they don't have doctrines to 'get their teeth into', do you dismiss them as well?
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
OTOH, people may have gone to the LCC seeking, found nothing, and moved on (guided by God, indeed, or so we hope).
If you look around, the churches which are growing are often those whose beliefs and practices demand a certain level of commitment - be they Evangelical, Catholic or whatever.
These woolly-pated, fluffy-bunny, liberal sects are conspicuous by their small size, IYSWIM.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
OTOH, people may have gone to the LCC seeking, found nothing, and moved on (guided by God, indeed, or so we hope).
If you look around, the churches which are growing are often those whose beliefs and practices demand a certain level of commitment - be they Evangelical, Catholic or whatever.
These woolly-pated, fluffy-bunny, liberal sects are conspicuous by their small size, IYSWIM.
Ian J.
So Ian J. you'd never accept that God may have guided someone into the Liberal catholic Church.
"These woolly-pated, fluffy-bunny, liberal sects are conspicuous by their small size, IYSWIM."
You mean like the C of E?
I know its so dreadful when they are so fluffy bunny "instead of preaching salvation through the sacrifice on Calvary of Jesus Christ, made present for us here and now in the sacrifice of the Mass."
Having said which I admire this LCC guy's statement about not forcing people to believe:
Its here.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Eddy, I do wish you'd try to read posts properly.
I did not use the word 'never' - I used the word 'may'. There is a difference.
I'm really sorry that you don't seem to like the idea that the purpose of Christianity is to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ. I may have got that wrong, but if that is, in fact, the case, then I shall pray for you.
In Christian love, of course.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
Oh I'm sorry if I misread that. Thanks for letting me know. And thanks for assuring me of your prayers.
"I'm really sorry that you don't seem to like the idea that the purpose of Christianity is to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ." ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
The small groups like LCC I think often have something to offer the larger church. Their unpaid priests may be examples of self sacrifice for the sake of the Gospel.
Their liturgies I think are worth looking at. There may even be something to learn from them.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Eddy, you want to get personal - take it to hell. This whole thread could do with less snark and more discussion. If people don't want to discuss it - don't reply.
T²
Eccles Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Low Treason
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# 11924
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
...The small groups like LCC I think often have something to offer the larger church. Their unpaid priests may be examples of self sacrifice for the sake of the Gospel.
Their liturgies I think are worth looking at. There may even be something to learn from them.
The problem seems to be that although the liturgies of the various different forms of the Liberal Catholic Church may look interesting-but-orthodox, these churches tend to cluster toward the lunatic fringe.
Having read the liturgy linked in the OP it looks like a mish-mash of anything and everything the compilers liked from the BCP, the Roman Missal, and anything else they came across. IMHO this is not the way liturgy is created. Perhaps that is what is to be learned. Liturgy is not just a selection of bits and pieces which sound nice or feel good.
The problem with the LCC in all its myriad forms, is that despite all appearances to the contrary, they are not just another form of 'independant catholicism'. IIRC the LCC is based on a curious mixture of Christianity and 'Theosophy', a sort of hotchpotch of Eastern beliefs involving re-incarnation and the development of the soul through various levels of which the human condition is only one.
I think to most mainstream christians, they would be classed as heretics, I consider them to be totally bonkers. YMMV ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
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He brought me to the banqueting house, and His banner over me was love.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Indeed. And perhaps it's only fair (even if obvious) to point out that there are unpaid and self-sacrificing priests and ministers in other denominations........!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
Yes, there are Ian J. Thats a good point to make. Thanks.
Now mention has been made here about Theosophy and the Liberal Catholic Church. Looking at there liturgies what is it that shows this Theosophy - and is Theosophy a B A D thing by the way, I simply don't know.
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
Good or bad, it's not Christian.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
By a funny old coincidence, there is a recent thread on Christians and Reincarnation in Purgatory...
Some aspects of whether Theosophy is an appropriate belief might be better housed there rather than on this thread, which should relate more directly to how the LCC etc. worship.
Just a suggestion!
dj_ordinaire, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
I'm sorry djo but I don't quite get your worry about this.
What I'm saying is we are told that the Liturgy of the LCC shows Theosophy influence. I'm asking whats that mean and where is it in their liturgy. So to me thats about how what they believe and how they worship and the words of liturgy link.
Now Thurible is saying 'its not Christian' - what theosophy or LCC?
I actually am a bit uncomfortable with christians who say others who call themselves christian aren't in fact christian.
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Manipled Mutineer
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# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Now Thurible is saying 'its not Christian' - what theosophy or LCC?
From the context I think Thurible was referring to Theosophy the belief system (in response to your question about it being a bad or good thing.) I don't want to perpetuate the tangent any further, butthis Wikipedia page gives a bit of a flavour of it if you want to know more. The question of how any Theosophical influence comes out in the liturgy is an interesting one, and one I'm not knowledgeable enough to comment on, unfortunately, although I will try and have a look at the liturgy when time permits.
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Manipled Mutineer:
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Now Thurible is saying 'its not Christian' - what theosophy or LCC?
From the context I think Thurible was referring to Theosophy the belief system (in response to your question about it being a bad or good thing.)
Sorry, I had thought it obvious. MM is correct.
Thurible
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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
And to clarify further - what I mean is that this is the appropriate place for discussing whether there is theosophy in the liturgies of the LCC. If you want to discuss more generally whether beliefs such as theosophy or other forms of reincarnationalism are congruent with honestly calling oneself a Christian, then the Purg thread would be the appropriate place.
Clear?
djo, Eccles host
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Flinging wide the gates...
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northender
Apprentice
# 9374
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Posted
re Liberal Catholic Benediction rite.
The idea of a metrical litany was imported from the Old Catholic Missal and Ritual, which used A&M 472 between the O Salutaris and Tantum Ergo.
The current Litany uses verses from A&M 464, 466, 469, 470 and 472, plus original material.
A good dictionary will tell you that "ruth" is the opposite of "ruthless".
The Divine Praises are not used, but a rough equivalent based on the Sacrosanctae prayer is said as an ascription of praise before the actual Benediction.
The tune to the hymn "Closed is the solemn hour" was written specially for these words, as they are an in unusual metre.
The feasts of the Assumption and Immaculate Conception are in the LC Calendar, but there is no doctrinal definition given, apart from what may be read in the appointed Collects.
The Ceremonial book states that the O Salutaris,
Tantum Ergo, versicles, responses and prayer and the act of Benediction are the only portions of liturgical obligation. The closing hymn, for instance, is only suitable for evenings.
This thread has prompted me to put my 28 year old notes on the sources of the LC Liturgy into computer format. I have noted all the scripture quotes, 1549 BCP bits, Irvingite material with its Orthodox sources, hymn sources, etc. So far I have done the Eucharist, Prime, Sext, Vespers and Complin.
In my clergy training days my research paper for the L C Institute of Studies was on all the collects and Benediction.
Laurence Fr
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
Fr Laurence thanks so much for that v interesting info. Its so kind of you to spenfd the time to go into detail.
Your wrote:
"The Divine Praises are not used, but a rough equivalent based on the Sacrosanctae prayer is said as an ascription of praise before the actual Benediction."
Any chance of posting that prayer LCC use, please?
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
The non-theosophical LCCI has a cathedral (picture) in NYC. Any MW reporters in the area?
[ 14. October 2009, 18:56: Message edited by: LQ ]
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
That is one of the most hideous church interiors I have ever seen.
![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
Yea kinda spooky there. Pity they couldnt have more light on that sanctuary, but, hey, maybe they like a dim gloom!
The outside isn't very appealing either - see the homepage of there website.
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Yes, the exterior is not at all appealing.
Mind you, they seem to be trying very hard to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
lol, whats the sow's ear - them and what they believe, or the building, lol. I guess you mean the building.
I know I keep asking about this and dont want to move out of Ecclesiantics land, but in their liturgy please can someone give an example of what suggests they are into freemasonry or theosophy - whats the words that are a give away?
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Bishops Finger
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# 5430
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Posted
Yes, I did mean the Cathedral!
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Mind you, it may well have started life as some sort of commercial building - a warehouse or retail outlet of some sort, perhaps?
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
dont want to move out of Ecclesiantics land
It's OK - you can use the whole of the Ship ...
Why not start a purg thread ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
dj_ordinaire said
quote:
And to clarify further - what I mean is that this is the appropriate place for discussing whether there is theosophy in the liturgies of the LCC.
So for now thats what I'm asking you guys who are in the know about theosophy etc.
Is there theosophy in the Lib Cat liturgies and what does it show up as?
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rudolf
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# 2995
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Posted
Eddy, while not qualified on either count, TS or LCC, and to be more accurate, neither side would have a spokesperson who would speak on their behalf, and if they did, it wouldn't be me, and I would also decline the request .... but despite all that, I might be the best available option to try and answer your question ....
quote:
So for now thats what I'm asking you guys who are in the know about theosophy etc.
Is there theosophy in the Lib Cat liturgies and what does it show up as?
Firstly, the people like me who like theosophy would say that it's all only common sense anyway - that things in general have a mechanism and a structure, so that the "miracle" of the eucharist must have a structure and mechanism, for example being mediated by angels, and derived form other levels of being - inner planes, etc. To some extent, the LCC liturgy makes this explicit. But, I think that is already there in the traditional latin mass anyway, so there is no change there.
Secondly, and along the same lines, the LCC liturgy lists the Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, and so on, which I'm told are there in the Book of Revelation, but in theosophical terms these are the 12 creative hierarchies, but this is not explained fully in theosophy, but you are given to understand that there are evolutions (and involutions) taking place at all levels and in all Kingdoms of nature - the earth is not here just for humanity to evolve, but also for all the other life streams. Although man may be the key to it all and the main point of it, man is not the ONLY point of it. However, the liturgy itself only requires the Book of Revelation, though this was probably given emphasis in the service for theosophical reasons - I don't think the liturgy is otherwise heavily "Revelation-oriented". Theosophy is not strongly "angel-oriented", but would point out that all of the worlds religions mention angels or devas, and this idea seems to be universal
Finally as I mentioned before, the concept of sin is minimised, for Theosophical/Buddhist reasons, as sin is not a very useful way of approaching things. I'm sure there are also other areas where the liturgy is deliberately "human-development friendly" - consistently throughout the tone of it is towards "you can change and grow and develop yourself" rather than "here's reality and you are stuck with it". It may have been one of the first liturgies to do this in a coherent way, though I'm sure this is much more common nowadays (though clearly some people would rather stay in control / be controlled !)
Otherwise, without putting in a lot of effort, the theosophical influence is hidden - it is all in the attitude, not in the words (except perhaps for the hymns, which are pretty hard work, and quite dated now)
I know this isn't really what you want ..... I personally think the liturgy stands on its own merits - northender may be able to provide further source material for each section of the liturgy.
From the theosophical perspective, there is now almost no overlap between the TS and the LCC in terms of membership, and no formal links between the organisations beyond a subsidiary of the TS renting a building and having a covenant with the LCC (and you can take this last bit as authoritative, as compared to the rest of what I have written !!)
As an afterthought, perhaps I should mention that most theosophists would be happy with some sort of "Communion of the Saints" as this idea also occurs in all of the other world religions, but, of course, in theosophy there is only ONE communion of the saints, not a different one for each religion. This idea might also have influenced the LCC liturgy in its tone and manner, rather than the actual words.
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How silently, how silently,
Posts: 83 | From: surrey | Registered: Jul 2002
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Fr Weber
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# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rudolf:
Secondly, and along the same lines, the LCC liturgy lists the Seraphim, Cherubim, Thrones, Dominions, Principalities, and so on, which I'm told are there in the Book of Revelation, but in theosophical terms these are the 12 creative hierarchies, but this is not explained fully in theosophy, but you are given to understand that there are evolutions (and involutions) taking place at all levels and in all Kingdoms of nature - the earth is not here just for humanity to evolve, but also for all the other life streams.
The angelic hierarchy comes from Pseudo-Dionysus (5th c., I think). He makes use of terms which are scriptural, but his arrangement of the hierarchy (in 9, not 12 levels) in three spheres is original with him. He is, of course, called "Pseudo-Dionysus" because at one time
The Celestial Hierarchy was attributed to Dionysus the Areopagite.
However, looking on Wikipedia I notice that St Clement of Rome posits an 11-level hierarchy in his Apostolic Constitutions, so I guess the idea wasn't original with Pseudo-D. after all! And all this talk of "levels" is starting to look very Dungeons & Dragons to me... ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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northender
Apprentice
# 9374
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Posted
The Ascription in the LC Rite which comes before the solemn act of Benediction, is the equivalent of the Divine Praises which come after in the Roman Use, but these are not the same in content or style.
To the most holy and adorable Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, three Persons in one God; to Christ our Lord, the only wise counsellor, the prince of peace; to the seven mighty spirits before the throne; and to the glorious assembly of just men made perfect, the watchers, the saints, the holy ones, be praise unceasing from every living creature; and honour might and glory, henceforth and for evermore. R/. Amen.
The actual basis of the Ascription is the Sacrosanctae, an indulgenced prayer to be said after the Divine Office in the old Roman breviary: To the most holy and undivided Trinity, to the humanity of our crucified Lord Jesus Christ, to the fruitful virginity of the most holy and glorious ever virgin Mary, and to the company of all the saints, may praise, honour and glory be given by every creature, and may we be granted the remission of all our sins, through all eternity. Amen.
Laurence Fr
Posts: 26 | From: Central Coast, NSW, Australia | Registered: Apr 2005
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northender
Apprentice
# 9374
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Posted
For those interested, here is the Communicantes from the Canon of the LC Eucharist. Unusually for a portion of the Canon, it is addressed to the Son.
Uniting in this joyful sacrifice with thy holy church throughout all the ages, we lift our hearts in adoration to thee, O God the Son, consubstantial, co-eternal with the Father, who, abiding unchangeable within thyself, didst nevertheless in the mystery of thy boundless love and thine eternal sacrifice, breathe forth thine own divine life into thy universe, and thus didst offer thyself as the lamb slain from the foundation of the world, dying in very truth that we might live.
Omnipotent, all-pervading, by that self-same sacrifice, thou dost continually uphold all creation, resting not by night or day, working evermore through that most august hierarchy of thy glorious saints, who live but to do thy will as perfect channels of thy wondrous power, to whom we ever offer heartfelt love and reverence.
Thou, O most dear and holy Lord, hast in thine ineffable wisdom ordained for us this blessed sacrament of thy love, that in it we may not only commemorate in symbol that thine eternal oblation, but verily take part in it, and perpetuate thereby, within the limitations of time and space which veil our earthly eyes from the excess of thy glory, the enduring sacrifice by which the world is nourished and sustained.
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Laurence Fr
Posts: 26 | From: Central Coast, NSW, Australia | Registered: Apr 2005
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Thanks Angloid. Its not always easy to discover from the website you point to just when and where services are... But I'll keep looking over it.
Here is the LCC Confirmation service I like the words of confirmation. They make quite abit of it and the words are nice.
That Veni Creator looks a bit different from how I seem to remeber it. Am I right that its different?
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
Odd indeed. There's essentially no connection to Baptism other than a passing comment about the confirmands being old enough to speak for themselves. The focus of the rite seems to be the granting of powers, but it's not in the sense of the "sevenfold gifts of the Spirit" in a traditional catholic or anglican sense; if I understand it correctly, the sacramental rite conveys a spiritual power that in turn confers physical strength upon the confirmand. That this new strength is intended for doing good works for upholding the common good and furthering the kingdom is fine by me, but there's something about the spiritual/physical connection that seemed a little ... I don't know, metaphysical, perhaps? ... and made me uncomfortable. That, and all the militaristic language: "knight," "soldier," "manly fight."
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
I know I keep asking this but where in England is there a regulalrly worshipping Liberal catholic Church? (I'm thinking of the original LCC not breakaways, but any would do!).
And where is there web presence??
Try the Bideford "Oratory." The "Priest," Michael Van Buren, is a Consultant Psychiatrist at North Devon Hospital and it seems that local Christians think the LCC is OK cos they are part of Christians Together in Bideford. Others may beg to differ given some of the theosophic stuff on the website.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
A rather muddled argument Bishops F. People may have gone to LCC seeking and found something but then moved on guided by God.
Quakers are good people and they don't have doctrines to 'get their teeth into', do you dismiss them as well?
The fact that the LCC is miniscule in the UK and Quakers are declining in numbers and influence suggest thatb they don't meet what people need. I'm with Bishops Finger on this one: whatever the label or liturgy, growing churches generally have only 1 thing in common - they preach commitment to Jesus Christ and opposition to injustice
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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