|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Eccles: The Liturgy of the Liberal Catholic Church
|
patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
quote:
In Liberal Catholic Thought (as articulated by Pigott, Wedgwood and Leadbeater) the "communion of saints" isn't exclusively composed of so called Christian Saints. It was held by Leadbeater et al. that God has spoken through all the religions of the world.
Thats interesting, I've personally always thpught that non Christian saints counted as within the Communion of Saints, but, hey, maybe that just isn't Christian normal teaching!
A true LibCath in the making! ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
Posts: 125 | From: Wyoming - USA | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
quote:
In Liberal Catholic Thought (as articulated by Pigott, Wedgwood and Leadbeater) the "communion of saints" isn't exclusively composed of so called Christian Saints. It was held by Leadbeater et al. that God has spoken through all the religions of the world.
Thats interesting, I've personally always thpught that non Christian saints counted as within the Communion of Saints, but, hey, maybe that just isn't Christian normal teaching!
Well, I think all Christians should certainly extend the Communion of Saints to the Jews of the Old Testament, so it's never a 'Christians only' club!
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We certainly include people like Gandhi in the 'saints' bit of the intercessions.
What does that mean Leo - which part of the liturgy do you say Gandhi's name.
I agree that the saints should be bigger than just Christian ones, and its interesting that you should include non Christian Or Jewish guys in it - and right I reckon.
LCC folk - are the saints actually named in the liturgy like they are at Mass? If so are a wide variety included too?
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
|
Posted
Thanks Leo I'm interested in that. Which calendar do you follow to find dates like that? It seems a progressive one - and I'd like to see it and maybe use it.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We certainly include people like Gandhi in the 'saints' bit of the intercessions.
LCC folk - are the saints actually named in the liturgy like they are at Mass? If so are a wide variety included too?
They aren't actually named. During the Commemoration of the Saints the Priest says:
"Here do we give unto Thee, O Lord, most high praise and hearty thanks for the wonderful grace and virtue declared in the holy Lady Mary and in all Thy glorious Saints from the beginning of the world, who have been the choice vessels of Thy grace and a shining light unto many generations."
http://www.universalcatholic.org/library/Liturgies/default.asp
--------------------
"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
Posts: 125 | From: Wyoming - USA | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
|
Posted
quote:
in the holy Lady Mary and in all Thy glorious Saints from the beginning of the world, who have been the choice vessels of Thy grace and a shining light unto many generations."
I hope that guys agree with me that that is a lovely phrase and very inclusive. I like the saints from the beginning of the world, bit.
Its a pity its not spelled out by naming people but then they'rd be arguements about wo was in and who wasn't I guess.
The question is I suppose how inclusive is the Communion of Saints - by some churches lists, not very
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
quote:
in the holy Lady Mary and in all Thy glorious Saints from the beginning of the world, who have been the choice vessels of Thy grace and a shining light unto many generations."
I hope that guys agree with me that that is a lovely phrase and very inclusive. I like the saints from the beginning of the world, bit.
Its a pity its not spelled out by naming people but then they'rd be arguements about wo was in and who wasn't I guess.
The question is I suppose how inclusive is the Communion of Saints - by some churches lists, not very
Owing to the very heterodox theology of Liberal Catholic churches, I would assume that any holy person of any religion since the dawn of mankind would be included.
--------------------
"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
Posts: 125 | From: Wyoming - USA | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
|
Posted
quote:
The question is I suppose how inclusive is the Communion of Saints - by some churches lists, not very
Owing to the very heterodox theology of Liberal Catholic churches, I would assume that any holy person of any religion since the dawn of mankind would be included.
Would Anglicans all be opposed to that idea though - including all holy people of the world in the communion of saints, or is that a no no.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
quote:
The question is I suppose how inclusive is the Communion of Saints - by some churches lists, not very
Owing to the very heterodox theology of Liberal Catholic churches, I would assume that any holy person of any religion since the dawn of mankind would be included.
Would Anglicans all be opposed to that idea though - including all holy people of the world in the communion of saints, or is that a no no.
Depends on the Anglican. I've heard of Anglican ministers who embrace heterodox theologies like Universalism and even other faiths like Buddhism and Islam, while other Anglicans might very well scream anathema at the very suggestion.
--------------------
"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
Posts: 125 | From: Wyoming - USA | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
quote:
The question is I suppose how inclusive is the Communion of Saints - by some churches lists, not very
Owing to the very heterodox theology of Liberal Catholic churches, I would assume that any holy person of any religion since the dawn of mankind would be included.
Would Anglicans all be opposed to that idea though - including all holy people of the world in the communion of saints, or is that a no no.
Depends on the Anglican. I've heard of Anglican ministers who embrace heterodox theologies like Universalism and even other faiths like Buddhism and Islam, while other Anglicans might very well scream anathema at the very suggestion.
I wasn't sure what you meant by heterodox so I looked it up. It seems to me some you call heterodox will not think of them that way! Such is always the way of it, I guess.
I wasn't just thinking of 'Anglican ministers' but Anglicans as a whole. Leo isn't a priest but I agree with him on this. Surely there can be saints in other faiths.
It also seems to me that Lib Caths can be 'heterodox' but some can be 'orthodox' and that church can hold them in the same church, I think there is something good in that, its inclusive, but I know some prefer more clear boundaries.
#The interesting thing about LCC for me is it has a traditional and familair liturgy but a very wide range of views held by its people including the priests.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Thanks Leo I'm interested in that. Which calendar do you follow to find dates like that? It seems a progressive one - and I'd like to see it and maybe use it.
No particular calndar other than Common Worship.
Different people are rota'd to lead the intercessions and they do their own homework as to what/who to include.
Incidentally, those who say that we should only include Christian saints - do they also insist that we should only pray for the FAITHFUL' departed and exclude 'those whose faith is known to you alone'?
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
quote:
in the holy Lady Mary and in all Thy glorious Saints from the beginning of the world, who have been the choice vessels of Thy grace and a shining light unto many generations."
I hope that guys agree with me that that is a lovely phrase and very inclusive. I like the saints from the beginning of the world, bit.
Its a pity its not spelled out by naming people but then they'rd be arguements about wo was in and who wasn't I guess.
The question is I suppose how inclusive is the Communion of Saints - by some churches lists, not very
Interestingly....after "the holy Lady Mary" we can say (because its optional) "our heavenly mother". Which I think is rather nice.
--------------------
'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QB] [QUOTE] that we should only pray for the FAITHFUL' departed and exclude 'those whose faith is known to you alone'?
Can I pick something up here.....in the LCC Tradtion we say "May all the souls of the departed, through the Love of God rest in peace" whilst making the sign of the cross.
Which I think is rather nice.
--------------------
'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QB] [QUOTE] that we should only pray for the FAITHFUL' departed and exclude 'those whose faith is known to you alone'?
Can I pick something up here.....in the LCC Tradtion we say "May all the souls of the departed, through the Love of God rest in peace" whilst making the sign of the cross.
Which I think is rather nice.
Yes I agree very much. Sometimes I think its the UNfaithful departed who need our prayers more, its good to see some Christians are mpraying for them!
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
|
Posted
One of the occasional prayers for the departed in the Canadian BCP has a rubrical ellipsis that allows for the interpolation of "and those whose faith is known to thee alone," and which I have used when officiating at Evening Prayer.
Posts: 6806 | From: Tio'tia:ke | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
|
Posted
quote:
.....the UNfaithful departed....
Interestingly.....the founding bishops of the LCC did not believe that there were any "unfaithful departed". Unpacking what I said a little, it makes sense to explain that they saw all members of the world's religions as "being faithful", because as Bishop Leadbeater articulated it, God has spoken through all the religions of the world.
To that end, an optional collect is listed in the back of the 1983 Liturgy it runs like this:
'Almighty GOD, who dost dwell in the hearts of all men, and hast created them to be an image of thine own eternity, we pray for thy children of other faiths that they, continually increasing in the knowledge of thy truth, may perfect thy work in their hearts; through Christ our Lord. Amen.
Additionally on the 19th Sunday after Trinity:
'O GOD, the father of manking, help us to see thy light and love shining in all the religions of the world, and to understand the manifold ways in which thou dost use them in the fulfilment of thy plan; through Christ our Lord. Amen.'
At every eucharist the following collect is said for peace, after whichever collects were used for the day:
'Teach us, O Lord, to see thy life in all men and in all the peoples of thine earth, and so guide the nations into the understanding of thy laws that peace and goodwill may reign upon earth; through Christ our Lord. Amen'
There was an earlier edition of this last collect which was extremely beautiful, I will try and look it out if anyone is interested?
And for those who didn't follow a particular religious path, the comments earlier in this thread relating to the "Act of Faith" show the LCC's traditional position regarding everyone being saved etc.
--------------------
'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
|
Posted
celestialstarfire (thats a funny name) those are beautiful prayers (if we amend the man / mankind language a bit, of course). Its so good of you to post them up.
I really like this liturgical inclusive approach, which also leaves the way open to those who see Christianity as very special. I mean God must cast His wonderful light on all peoples, mustn't he?
I know some have dismissed the LCC as cranky or whatever, but even cranky folk, like me, can have insights sometimes (I hope).
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
celestialstarfire (thats a funny name) those are beautiful prayers (if we amend the man / mankind language a bit, of course). Its so good of you to post them up.
I really like this liturgical inclusive approach, which also leaves the way open to those who see Christianity as very special. I mean God must cast His wonderful light on all peoples, mustn't he?
I know some have dismissed the LCC as cranky or whatever, but even cranky folk, like me, can have insights sometimes (I hope).
I like to think that the LCC has contributed to the Church Catholic in many small but significant ways.
Take, for example, it's pioneering use of the vernacular in the Mass.
I look at the Body of Christ and consider that all it's parts are important, even the small ones, and I am happy with the role we play.
--------------------
"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
Posts: 125 | From: Wyoming - USA | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
celestialstarfire (thats a funny name)
The weird name is purely because its almost expected for us LCC peeps to have weird new-age-esq names. So I'm "queering" our querkiness lol.....to use a phrase often employed by Professor Elizabeth Stuart. I'm turning it on its head in order to draw value out of it by trying to be as academic as I can.
I'm glad you like the prayers, I've got a couple more I'll put on here when I get time later this week.
I have often felt that the work of Wedgwood, Leadbeater and Besant (the LCC liturgy) has been too easily and readily dismissed by self professed catholics.
Although the liturgy can be a little verbose at times, it does articulate many wonderful concepts and ideologies which are still relevant today.
I find it even more fascinating to see that some of the great Cathedrals of England are only just starting to explore some of the concepts put forward by Bp Wedgwood some 80 years ago!! Such as the church's liturgy being a public enactment of a mystery drama designed to draw people into the wonder of God. (Winchester Cathedral is one example of this, in the "pew news" recently they've been actively looking for people wanting to engage in drama and liturgy to find new ways to spread the Gospel message).
--------------------
'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
I like to think that the LCC has contributed to the Church Catholic in many small but significant ways.
Take, for example, it's pioneering use of the vernacular in the Mass.
Pioneering? The c of E pioneered the vernacular in 1549, some 300 years before the LCC was conceived.
My apologies. I meant to imply using a modified Roman Rite.
--------------------
"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
Posts: 125 | From: Wyoming - USA | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
Then the C of E beat them at that too - AFAIK The English Missal, used by anglo-catholics in 1912, did that.
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Then the C of E beat them at that too - AFAIK The English Missal, used by anglo-catholics in 1912, did that.
Interesting. I believe I read some Lib Cath guys who made the claim I stated earlier, and they may need correcting.
**rushes home to research!**
--------------------
"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
Posts: 125 | From: Wyoming - USA | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
|
Posted
Just had another thought Leo.
The LCC based their English Liturgy (in 1918-19) on the The Old Catholic Missal And Ritual published in 1909.
I suspect I have confused a statement referring to the OC missal and applied it to the LCC Liturgy.
--------------------
"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
Posts: 125 | From: Wyoming - USA | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Pioneering? The c of E pioneered the vernacular in 1549, some 300 years before the LCC was conceived.
Well for a catholic Church it was pioneering. And before anyone says anything.....I only have two words....Apostolicae Curae.
--------------------
'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
|
Posted
Collect as promised above:
Teach us, O LOrd, to see Thy life in all men and in all the peoples of Thine earth and guide our nation through its leaders to preserve Thy peace that the menace of war is far from our days, through Christ our Lord. Amen.
In the 1924 edition of the LCC Liturgy, under Bp Leadbeater, this collect was said at every mass before the epistle.
--------------------
'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
The LCC based their English Liturgy (in 1918-19) on the The Old Catholic Missal And Ritual published in 1909.
I suspect I have confused a statement referring to the OC missal and applied it to the LCC Liturgy.
Mason you are sort of right in what you are getting at....... but not completely so. You are right in that Bishop Mathew compiled in English the Old Catholic Missal and Ritual. It was his 'mission' which severed it's ties with the Old Catholic Church because of increasing prostestantism. They under Wedgwood's leadership changed their name to 'The Liberal Catholic Church (Old Catholic)'. Eventually they dropped the "Old Catholic" bit after the name basically because it was too long.
I hope I've not offended anyone by my pointing to Apostolicae Curae.....but interestingly enough 'The Times' last week stated that the new legal structure for Anglicans to go over will require ordination. Not re-ordination, nor even sub-conditional ordination. Straight out ordination. One can but assume that this is because of the ruling from Pope Leo XIII.
From my research online there was an official liturgy released in 1544 under Henry VIII, it was written by Cranmer....who bizzarely was burnt as a heretic by his own church.
Apostolicae Curae explains what happened to the C of E after / during the Reformation better than I could. Though I'd suggest paying particular attention to point 36 and I leave the rest to you to read. (It's the implications this point which adds weight to what Patriotic_Mason says)
It is true that the Dutch Old Catholics did get involved with the Anglicans after Mathew.....despite them refusing to acknowledge Mathew after he declared independence from them, they did write in his defence to 'The Times' in previous years.
Funny how history works out hey?
--------------------
'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
Collect as promised above:
Teach us, O Lord, to see Thy life in all men and in all the peoples of Thine earth and guide our nation through its leaders to preserve Thy peace that the menace of war is far from our days, through Christ our Lord. Amen.
In the 1924 edition of the LCC Liturgy, under Bp Leadbeater, this collect was said at every mass before the epistle.
I made a mistake it should read "be far from our days". Sorry !
--------------------
'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
You are right in that Bishop Mathew compiled in English the Old Catholic Missal and Ritual. It was his 'mission' which severed it's ties with the Old Catholic Church because of increasing prostestantism. They under Wedgwood's leadership changed their name to 'The Liberal Catholic Church (Old Catholic)'. Eventually they dropped the "Old Catholic" bit after the name basically because it was too long.
There is an Old Catholic church in GB which claims to be the proper successor of +Mathew. Their old website (now defunct) stated clearly that it was they, not the LCC, who succeeded +Mathew in England and Great Britain. Their line goes from +Mathew to +Willoughby to +James Banks in 1922.
quote:
It is true that the Dutch Old Catholics did get involved with the Anglicans after Mathew.....despite them refusing to acknowledge Mathew after he declared independence from them, they did write in his defence to 'The Times' in previous years.
Funny how history works out hey?
The Lambeth conference of 1920 set out to invalidate +Mathew's Orders and Church (see resolution 27). Then the Bonn conference in 1931 settled the whole question of inter-communion between the Old Catholics in Holland and the Church of England.
Convenient.
[ 04. November 2009, 15:27: Message edited by: patriotic_mason ]
--------------------
"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
Posts: 125 | From: Wyoming - USA | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
|
Posted
So am I right in thinking that the Liberal catholic and Old Catholic liturgies are very similar?
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
|
Posted
quote:
There is an Old Catholic church in GB which claims to be the proper successor of +Mathew. Their old website (now defunct) stated clearly that it was they, not the LCC, who succeeded +Mathew in England and Great Britain. Their line goes from +Mathew to +Willoughby to +James Banks in 1922.
It is a well known fact that when Mathew withdrew himself from Wedgwood et al he did set up another grouping (he eventually set up several churches actually) and they were seen as more "orthodox" as they weren't "tainted by theosophy". But Wedgwood's organisation came first. I believe it was Bernard Mary Williams who talked Mathew into renouncing what became the LCC. However Willoughby despite going to the Roman Church did write in defence of the LCC and saw himsel as "the father" of the church as he gave Wedgwood his Episcopal Orders.
--------------------
'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
So am I right in thinking that the Liberal catholic and Old Catholic liturgies are very similar?
In a word "No". LOL.
The Longer Form of the Mass is very similar, but there have been word subsitutions and in some areas changes to better suit the ideals being put forward by the Church. So all the "slavish" and "excessive" placating, cursing and abasement passages which are present in Tridentine Liturgies are replaced, with uplifting passages which seek to draw the mind to focus on the glory of God. And the splendour of the creator.....one passage even says "thou whos beauty shines through the whole universe, unveil thy glory". Wedgwood, Leadbeater and Besant stepped out of the Tridentine framework to try to create a truly "catholic" (universal) liturgy by looking to also older Anglican and Orthodox liturgies for their inspiration. For example in the 'Long Form' there is a collect from the Sarum Missal, and there is also evidence of the Orthodox influence too. Some of it was discussed earlier in this thread.
--------------------
'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
|
Posted
P.S.
They also wrote their own passages when they could find no previous expression of what they wanted to say.
Also the readings for the week are set on the Sunday of the week, and apart from any special feast or if the priest and congregation want to observe a specific saint's day, they stay the same throughout. Also they are "themed", the first half of the liturgical year focuses on the life of Christ and the second on the virtues which he demonstrated and taught us. There are also additional days (weeks) of devotion to the Holy Spirit which punctuate the "long plains of green" which are experienced after Trinity.
The readings were set this way to make the liturgy easier to use, and also to give us the chance to reflect upon the Gospel and Epistle from the Sunday during the week. Some choose to do this meditatively. In addition, it is also acceptable to substitute previous Gospels and Epistles later in the week if desirable.
--------------------
'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
|
Posted
"I believe it was Bernard Mary Williams"
Who was he then?
"So all the "slavish" and "excessive" placating, cursing and abasement passages which are present in Tridentine Liturgies are replaced"
What a good idea!
"Also the readings for the week are set on the Sunday of the week,"
But you wouldnt then get much scripture in a year would you?
Mind you is the daily office of the LCC available? It may have long scripture readings.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
"I believe it was Bernard Mary Williams"
Who was he then?
I believe he was a Bishop consecrated by Bishop Mathew. If you look online I'm sure you'll find something.
quote:
"So all the "slavish" and "excessive" placating, cursing and abasement passages which are present in Tridentine Liturgies are replaced"
What a good idea!
Well I thought so.....Leadbeater strongly advocated that this was "left over" from Judaism and that it might be left from the earlier tribal Deity found in Judaism, it was not befitting the 'God' which Jesus spoke of.
quote:
"Also the readings for the week are set on the Sunday of the week,"
But you wouldnt then get much scripture in a year would you?
Mind you is the daily office of the LCC available? It may have long scripture readings.
The LCC does have Prime, Sext, Vespers and Complin. It weekly uses the same Gospel and Epistle as on the Sunday for these services, as the "theme for the week" is to be reflected upon throughout the week.
The lack of emphasis on scripture in the LCC comes from the fact that the LCC places greater emphasis on the scaraments, particularly on the Eucharist as the 'central act of Christian worship'. The theory goes that whilst scripture is significant, it is only so because it gives testament to Christ, but in the Eucharist we have the Body and Blood of Christ and so it is ultimately more important. We can then use the offices to reflect upon the mystery of Christ's life, teachings, ascension etc. by looking at the intentions for the weeks.
For example....in the first half of the year, the fourth sunday after Epiphany (and the week) has its intention set as 'Endurance'. Something which Christ showed us the perfect example of.
Later in the year, the Seventeenth Sunday after Trinity, the intent is 'Eternal Progress'.
Much later in the Church's year, the Sunday before Advent for example, the intention is set as 'The Dispelling of Ignorance; a day of devotion to the Holy Spirit'. Such devotions to the Holy Spirit are throughout the year. And this one is particularly fitting just before Advent.
--------------------
'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
|
Posted
This link might be of some interest to those interested in The Liberal Catholic Liturgy. It is the LCC equivalent of 'Fortescue and O'Connel' and its commonly known as the Blue Book. Its fuller title is 'Ceremonies of The Liberal Catholic Rite' by Irving S. Cooper. Bishop Cooper was the Regionary Bishop for the USA at one point. It explains fully the ritual and ceremonial workings of the Church.
--------------------
'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
"I believe it was Bernard Mary Williams"
Who was he then?
I believe he was a Bishop consecrated by Bishop Mathew. If you look online I'm sure you'll find something.
I would recommend perusal of Peter F. Anson's "Bishops at Large" if you would like to know more about this interesting man. The Apocryphile Press reprint of Bishops at Large is still readily available and much cheaper than copies of the original 1960s printings. Inter alia I have seen two explanations adduced for why the latter are so rare - one is that copies were desperately sought after by EVs wanting to see what Anson wrote about them and their lines of sucession and the other is that many copies were pulped after an Anglican Bishop objected to an image of some of his pontifical regalia being used as a cover illustration!
[Code fix. Mamacita, Host]
[ 06. November 2009, 22:55: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
--------------------
Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
Posts: 1533 | From: Glamorgan, UK | Registered: Jun 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by celestialstarfire:
This link might be of some interest to those interested in The Liberal Catholic Liturgy. It is the LCC equivalent of 'Fortescue and O'Connel' and its commonly known as the Blue Book. Its fuller title is 'Ceremonies of The Liberal Catholic Rite' by Irving S. Cooper. Bishop Cooper was the Regionary Bishop for the USA at one point. It explains fully the ritual and ceremonial workings of the Church.
Thats a fascinating book, I'll be looking at it in more detail soon. Thanks for signposting to it.
Its published by the St Alban press who've been mentioned before on this thread, are they official publishing house of the LCC?
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Its published by the St Alban press who've been mentioned before on this thread, are they official publishing house of the LCC?
It think it was in the past but I don't know who runs it nowadays. I know the American branch of the St Alban Press is run by Bishop Dean Bekken, but thats about all I know.
--------------------
'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
|
Posted
This photo of a Bishop being consecrated in the Liberal Catholic Church shows a big altar with a little one at its side. Is the little one a sife altar or a credence table, I can't work that out.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
This photo of a Bishop being consecrated in the Liberal Catholic Church shows a big altar with a little one at its side. Is the little one a sife altar or a credence table, I can't work that out.
I believe it is a side altar. I wouldn't think a credence table would have candles.
--------------------
"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
Posts: 125 | From: Wyoming - USA | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
This photo of a Bishop being consecrated in the Liberal Catholic Church shows a big altar with a little one at its side. Is the little one a sife altar or a credence table, I can't work that out.
Its a side altar where I believe the B.E. waits at points during the rite of consecration at points, and the offerings he is to make to his consecrating Bishop are placed upon the altar, six candlesticks, altar cross etc. the directions for consecrating a bishop in the blue book give fuller details.
--------------------
'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
This photo of a Bishop being consecrated in the Liberal Catholic Church shows a big altar with a little one at its side. Is the little one a sife altar or a credence table, I can't work that out.
I believe it is a side altar. I wouldn't think a credence table would have candles.
Traditionally they did in the RC, and in some Anglican churches, so the practice would not be without precedent in other communions!
--------------------
Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
I believe it is a side altar. I wouldn't think a credence table would have candles.
We always have two candles on the credence table, which I was always taught to light after both sides of the Altar had been lit.
--------------------
'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
|
Posted
Thats interesting, why does the credence have those two candles lit. I've heard of it before but don't know what its about. I saw it once and thought that was just where the acolytes have put their candles.
quote:
the offerings he is to make to his consecrating Bishop are placed upon the altar, six candlesticks, altar cross etc.
How interesting. I didn't realise this custome existed. Offerings to the consecrating bishop from the guy being ordained...
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
How interesting. I didn't realise this custome existed. Offerings to the consecrating bishop from the guy being ordained...
Yes, I'm told its an ancient tradition. Though interestingly, the Consecrating Bishop is presented with what are essentially his "working tools" and not something he can profit personally from. Bread, Wine and Candles (lit torches)emblazoned with his coat of arms, and also the coat of arms of the new bishop. I have read that in the past at the "offertory" in the Eucharist people would present food etc. for the priest.
--------------------
'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
Posts: 68 | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
|
Posted
"I have read that in the past at the "offertory" in the Eucharist people would present food etc. for the priest."
I never heard about this custom before - is it just in the Lib Cath Church where this happens or do you mean in the churches of the West in the past.
By the way does the LCC have modern language worship as well or has it stuck to the traditional language of previous generations?
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
"I have read that in the past at the "offertory" in the Eucharist people would present food etc. for the priest."
I never heard about this custom before - is it just in the Lib Cath Church where this happens or do you mean in the churches of the West in the past.
By the way does the LCC have modern language worship as well or has it stuck to the traditional language of previous generations?
Churches of the past.
The LCC uses mostly traditional language.
Posts: 125 | From: Wyoming - USA | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Thread closed
Printer-friendly view
