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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: The Liturgy of the Liberal Catholic Church
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patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LibCath2000:
Also, I could not find any video of a Marian service in the LCC (and in fact there are few videos online about Liberal Catholicism), but I did find this.
LC2K
My Facebook friend, Rabecca Collin, is in that video! Pretty cool!
As for videos: The Young Rite, while not strictly or solely a Liberal Rite church, offers numerous videos on it's website including the traditional mass: http://www.lcc.cc/yr/
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Many churches have come up in recent years with services to help people get into worship - like mission services, or seekers' services. These aren't main liturgies like Mass but steps to getting there.
With a name like 'Liberal catholic' I am surprised that the LCC church haven't had a go at this. The C of E has traditional liturgy as well as not so traditional and it seems to work well together.
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LibCath2000
Shipmate
# 15363
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
With a name like 'Liberal catholic' I am surprised that the LCC church haven't had a go at this. The C of E has traditional liturgy as well as not so traditional and it seems to work well together.
When I first learned about Catholic Churches outside of communion with Rome, I thought that the Liberal Catholic's would be the most 'liberal' in terms of liturgical innovation.
Of course, the opposite was true.
Now...
I stand by what I said here to you, and others before...
What works in one Church, will not necessarily work in another, and in fact, may not even be desired.
You're C of E, from what I understand... so for me, any liturgical activities you do in your church are no concern of mine. Those decisions would be entirely up to your own clergy and adherents.
I know someone else will most likely take issue with this, however, please understand, I belong to the LCC worldwide. Any other church calling itself Liberal Catholic is entitled to do whatever it wants in terms of liturgics.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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LibCath2000
Shipmate
# 15363
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
My goodness, scariest concelebration ever!
Different to be sure, but it's pretty awesome to me!
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Concelebration? I don't think the LCC church will do that, its a modern invention!
I'm puzzled a little by the LCC church insistence on traditional rites only. Does this mean their are no children's liturgies or acomodation for children ever?
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LibCath2000
Shipmate
# 15363
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
My goodness, scariest concelebration ever!
That was a page completely black? Does that mean something?
Yeah... means you should update your computer.
LC2K
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
I tried too and got a black screen. Then it said I should install Apple Quicktime, when I tried it said not available!
Maybe LCC church concelbration is to be a black mystery of mysteries now, lol.
[ 11. January 2010, 18:28: Message edited by: Eddy ]
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
My goodness, scariest concelebration ever!
That was a page completely black? Does that mean something?
As Eddy noted, it is a QuickTime file. It's a very short clip showing at least nine priests (maybe more in the back, I couldn't quite make them out) in more-or-less matching chasubles, facing the congo and beginning what I think was a Eucharistic Prayer (couldn't quite make it out). The title of the page was "Retreat 2002," so I assume it was a special event with several clergy gathered. Nonetheless... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
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patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
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Posted
Hasn't this thread run it's course yet?
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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LibCath2000
Shipmate
# 15363
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by patriotic_mason:
Hasn't this thread run it's course yet?
I think so...
The only question(s) still being presented, have been asked and answered already, several times.
LC2K
[PS: There is an undergoing effort to create an independent, Liberal Catholic Forum-I will keep any interested parties updated]
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"The sum of His love is always shining; why should we refuse to come out into the sunshine?"-Science of the Sacraments
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
In the LCC Church liturgy in English why are words
Ite Missa est
Deo gratias
used
- Before the blessing - thats a bit odd isnt it.
and why in Latin when everything else is in English.
It seems strange to me.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
In the LCC Church liturgy in English why are words
Ite Missa est
Deo gratias
used
- Before the blessing - thats a bit odd isnt it.
Well, I agree that it's odd, but it seems hardly fair to fault the Liberal Rite given that it was the same in the Roman Rite on which it was based.
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Really LQ I didnt know that. The dismissal came before the blessing in the old Latin Rite, did it.
Still not sure why though the LCC church should revert mto latin at that point. maybe the translators forgot that bit!
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celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Really LQ I didnt know that. The dismissal came before the blessing in the old Latin Rite, did it.
Still not sure why though the LCC church should revert mto latin at that point. maybe the translators forgot that bit!
Leadbeater held that the Priest was dismissing the Angel called at the start of the mass, and others summoned through the course of the rite. It was not "aimed at the congregation" so to speak.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
How is the angel called at the beginning of the Mass - is there a formula provided for that?
It also suggests Angels speak latin but not English...
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celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
How is the angel called at the beginning of the Mass - is there a formula provided for that?
It also suggests Angels speak latin but not English...
Yes....in the Tridentine Rite it is at the beginning, during the asperges:
"Let us pray.--Hear us, O holy Lord, almighty Father, everlasting God, and vouchsafe to send Thy holy Angel from heaven, to guard, cherish, protect, visit and defend all that are assembled in this place: through Christ our Lord. Amen."
The Liberal Rite in the Shorter Form says "And I pray our heavenly Father, that he will send his Holy Angel"
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
It also suggests Angels speak latin but not English...
Again I think Latin usage might be because it was the way the Tridentine Mass ended. Also it was probably because it can be sung very beautifully.
Leadbeater held that ultimately all human language was insufficient, and that despite that God still responds to us whatver language we use.
The Science of The Sacraments will give you more specific details if you get the chance to check it out.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I sense a certain level of enquiry fatigue setting in. We'll leave this thread open for a day or so longer for any further contributions, and then send it to its well deserved rest.
(We'll save all the detailed information so kindly provided by our LC shipmates, by moving this thread to Limbo when we do the next board clear up.)
T²
Eccles Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
The angel and the liturgy is a very interesting point I think, and does come in other liturgy as well doesnt it.
When we call the angel is that a specific angel - as gabriel to our Lady, or any angel?
I know in the Missal there is somewhere a passage about the angel taking the worship up into heaven - maybe not quite that - and someone kind soul can correct me on it, I hope. Thats the idea though.
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celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
When we call the angel is that a specific angel - as gabriel to our Lady, or any angel?
Leadbeater held that it was 'The Angel of the Eucharist' or a 'directing angel' of sorts. Really rather interesting.
Oh and for those interestested I gather the St Alban Press in California are due to be re-releasing some of the harder to find older theological texts written about Liberal Catholicism.
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
I know in the Missal there is somewhere a passage about the angel taking the worship up into heaven - maybe not quite that - and someone kind soul can correct me on it, I hope. Thats the idea though.
It's in the tridentine Canon: Súpplices te rogámus, omnípotens Deus: jube hæc perférri per manus sancti Angeli tui in sublíme altáre tuum, in conspéctu divínæ majestátis tuæ: ut quotquot ex hac altáris participatióne sacrosánctum Fíii tui, Cor+pus, et Sán+guinem sumpsérimus, omni benedictióne cælésti et grátia repleámur. Per eúndem Christum Dóminum nostrum. Amen.
or
Humbly we beseech Thee, almighty God, to command that these our offerings be carried by the hands of Thy holy Angel to Thine Altar on high, in the sight of Thy divine Majesty, so that those of us who shall receive the most sacred Body + and Blood + of Thy Son by partaking thereof from this Altar may be filled with every grace and heavenly blessing: Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.
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celestialstarfire
Shipmate
# 15236
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Posted
"P. Wherefore, O Lord and heavenly Father, we thy humble servants do offer unto thee this, the most precious gift which thou hast bestowed upon us, in token of our + love and of the perfect + devotion and + sacrifice of our + minds and + hearts to thee; and we pray that thou wouldst command thy holy angel to bear our oblation to thine alter on high, there to be offered by him who, as the eternal high priest, for ever offers himself as the eternal sacrifice."
That is a quote from the Shorter Form of the Eucharist (LCC).
And unusually the next paragraph which on the surface seems to be a prayer about the Priest, Leadbeater said was actually a prayer about the Angel.
"And we do pray thee for thy servant who ministers at this altar, that meetly celebrating the mysteries of the most holy + Body and + Blood of thy Son, he may be + filled with thy mighty power and thy blessing.
The Priest makes the last cross upon himself."
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'one day all His sons shall reach His feet, however far they stray'
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
I know in the Missal there is somewhere a passage about the angel taking the worship up into heaven - maybe not quite that - and someone kind soul can correct me on it, I hope. Thats the idea though.
It's in the tridentine Canon: Súpplices te rogámus, omnípotens Deus: jube hæc perférri per manus sancti Angeli tui in sublíme altáre tuum, in conspéctu divínæ majestátis tuæ: ut quotquot ex hac altáris participatióne sacrosánctum Fíii tui, Cor+pus, et Sán+guinem sumpsérimus, omni benedictióne cælésti et grátia repleámur. Per eúndem Christum Dóminum nostrum. Amen.
or
Humbly we beseech Thee, almighty God, to command that these our offerings be carried by the hands of Thy holy Angel to Thine Altar on high, in the sight of Thy divine Majesty, so that those of us who shall receive the most sacred Body + and Blood + of Thy Son by partaking thereof from this Altar may be filled with every grace and heavenly blessing: Through the same Christ our Lord. Amen.
That's always struck me as a very lovely passage although I'm never sure quite where it derives from - is their a Scriptural passage about prayers and Temple offerings being brought before the Throne of Grace?
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It's in the tridentine Canon
And IIRC the Church of England retained it until the 1552 prayer book.
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Manipled Mutineer
Shipmate
# 11514
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It's in the tridentine Canon
And IIRC the Church of England retained it until the 1552 prayer book.
In some form, although moving after the consecration and substituting "prayers and supplications" for "offerings", "tabernacle" for "altar" and omitting all after "divine majesty", in place of which there is "not waiyng our merites, but pardonyng our offences, through Christe our Lorde, by whome, and with whome, in the unitie of the holy Ghost: all honour and glory, be unto thee, O father almightie, world without ende. Amen."
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Collecting Catholic and Anglo-
Catholic books
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
The angel in the liturgy is very nice, I think - I mean how djo talks about it. I like the 'with angels and archangels' bit in the Mass as well.
The LCC church seems to be getting some comment in Hell too.
From what has been said here the church doesn't seem to mix much with others and has a pretty static liturgy. When lots of churches have been developing there liturgies in recent years the LCC church don't seem to have done so.
I can understand that - I know some people like the old ways and don't want change. Like the Prayer Book Society in the Church of England.
What I sense though is that behind the LCC church worship although its said anyone can believe anything there are in fact some mystical or esoteric thinkings - like how the church should be laid out for maximum energy.
It makes me wonder if like Freemasons there is a higher order of church that members can move into. I mean as the Freemasons have special lodges you can move on to - I think I am right here, so I just wonder if the LCC church has secret ceremonies or rites for certian deeply committed members.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
It's in the tridentine Canon
And IIRC the Church of England retained it until the 1552 prayer book.
In full: Yet we beseche thee to accepte thys our bounden duetie and service, and commaunde these our prayers and supplicacions, by the Ministery of thy holy Angels, to be brought up into thy holy Tabernacle before the syght of thy dyvine majestie; not waiyng our merites, but pardonyng our offences,
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
It makes me wonder if like Freemasons there is a higher order of church that members can move into. I mean as the Freemasons have special lodges you can move on to - I think I am right here, so I just wonder if the LCC church has secret ceremonies or rites for certian deeply committed members.
Although I know the LCC are sometimes liked with the Freemasons, I hardly think that that's a fair thing to accuse them of - I imagine that the rites that are publically available are what they use and have never heard rumours of any 'secret' extra ones.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
It makes me wonder if like Freemasons there is a higher order of church that members can move into. I mean as the Freemasons have special lodges you can move on to - I think I am right here, so I just wonder if the LCC church has secret ceremonies or rites for certian deeply committed members.
If I might kill this conspiracy theory before it has a chance to grow.....
I am a Master Mason (AF&AM), a 32nd degree Scottish Rite Mason, and a Knight Templar in the York Rite here in the USA. There are no "secret" lodges in any part of the Masonic family. There are certain groups which have very exclusive membership and one must be a Mason to belong to those groups (MSRICF is a Masonic Rosicrucianism whose membership is "invitation only") but how secret is an organization that has a webpage?
The LCC has never been involved with Freemasonry directly. Some of the founding Bishops were Co-Masons (a group which admits men and women) but that does not imply any formal connection.
As to a secret rite in the LCC, such a thing does not exist. I realize that many will classify the LCC as a neo-gnostic church, yet where the original gnostics occasionally engaged in secret rites, the LCC does not. All our rites and sacraments are open to the public. There are no secret rites reserved for the "elite".
Such a notion is contrary to everything the Liberal Catholic Church stands for.
Pax et Lux!
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Hmm, I flirted with Liberal Catholicism in my teen years, but I must say I didn't know that members could be Freemasons. It rather undermines the "Catholic" bit. (Of course, we've the same problem in Anglicanism).
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Thanks for that patriotic_mason. We've heard that the LCC church has different branches etc. is what you say holding for all those branches.
Given the friendly relations between LCC church and Freemasons - through shared members, makes me wonder if the LCC church ritual has been influenced by masonic symbolism or rites. I say this because it seems that the LCC church is younger than Freemasonary.
Please note I'm not criticising the connection, or indeed extra secret rites. Lots of groups have inner circles, you know, and I know some Episcopal bishops or priests are freemasons as well.
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patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
Hmm, I flirted with Liberal Catholicism in my teen years, but I must say I didn't know that members could be Freemasons. It rather undermines the "Catholic" bit. (Of course, we've the same problem in Anglicanism).
There are numerous Roman Catholics in Freemasonry as well who do not regard Papal Bull's as anything but Papal opinion.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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patriotic_mason
Shipmate
# 15246
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
Thanks for that patriotic_mason. We've heard that the LCC church has different branches etc. is what you say holding for all those branches.
To my knowledge, yes. That is not to say that there isn't some left-field Bishop somewhere who uses our rite and holds Apostolic Succession via the Liberal Catholics who isn't doing some secret gnostic-like thing. I really don't know. But among those who genuinely consider themselves within the Liberal Catholic tradition, secret rites do not exist.
quote:
Given the friendly relations between LCC church and Freemasons - through shared members, makes me wonder if the LCC church ritual has been influenced by masonic symbolism or rites. I say this because it seems that the LCC church is younger than Freemasonary.
Owing to the fact that +Leadbeater was a prominent Co-Mason in Australia, and that it was after his Masonic influences he became a Bishop in what was to become the LCC, and that he co-authored our Liturgy, then I would presume you are correct on all counts. For that matter I might even argue that Freemasonry had a larger influence on our rite and theological inclinings than the much lauded Theosophical Society!
That bit aside, you might also recall that Freemasonry borrowed much of it's rite from catholic liturgy, so you might say that what goes around comes around.
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"Look with the eyes of Thy love upon our manifold imperfections and pardon all our shortcomings, that we may be filled with the brightness of the everlasting light and become the unspotted mirror of Thy power and the image of Thy goodness."
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
OK, this is turning very purgatorial.
It has been an interesting thread, and we will preserve it for posterity - please feel free to craft a purgatory OP to take forward some of these theological/metaphysical issues. I would like to thank our Liberal Catholic shipmates for being so generous in answering many, many questions about their tradition.
T²
Eccles Host
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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