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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eccles: Metropolitan Community Church Worship
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
In the thread on the Ecumenical Catholic Church Fr Paul of their Parish of the Holy Angels in Portsmouth mentioned same Sex blessings and said:
quote:
The rite used for same-sex weddings is an ammended version of the anglican rite.
That puzzled me a bit. I didn't know that there is a anglican rite of same sex blessings. I'd love to see it if their is one.
And what of the MCC church where do they get that service from. It could be that the ECC and MCC are related, they seem to share a similar outlook, and one worth listening to, I say.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Related in the sense that they are gay friendly, do gay weddings, have a similar outlook, and so may share ideas and worship practices and resources.
I asked particualrly because I was interested to know about how same sex blessings are done in there churches. That seems a good step forward and worth sharing with us, and learning about.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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toaster
Shipmate
# 14811
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Posted
I'll try to answer your questions Long Mire from my own experiences.
In most cases, the pastor at Newcastle usually just wears a dog collar, and, as I said is not always involved in the service. So there aren't necessarily any visible signs of hierarchy. I know we also try as much as possible to have a balance of men and women in visible roles during the service.
When the person celebrating communion first approaches the table for communion they put on a simple stole which they then take off afterwards.
At the moment MCC Newcastle ususally meets in a URC church hall. There is a table and lectern at the front, and several rows of seats set out. We occasionally have services in the main church for special events, and there is ongoing discussion as to whether we should move there permanently (pros and cons for both staying and going).
I know of one other MCC which has a similar layout to this, and most do meet in church buildings. MCC Journey in Birmingham has it's own building, underneath a railway arch, but I don't know about the layout.
There are some pictures on the MCC Newcastle website which might be helpful. The first is a Christmas carol service (I think) in the main church so this is more formal than usual.
The second is a close up of the AIDS candle, which is lit during intercessionary prayers each week. I'm not sure if this is a universal MCC practise either I'm afraid, but the church does have a Global HIV/AIDS ministry, and this has always been a focus of ministry.
The fourth picture down shows the more typical set up, in the church hall, with the celebrant wearing a red stole (the pastor is in the green in the front row).
Again, I'd guess practises in the US, where congregations are larger may vary. And also in smaller congregations - MCC Newcastle used to meet in a small upstairs room in the church they're now in, but as they grew, moved down to the hall.
I'm not sure if there is a specific symbolism which draws the MCC community together, I think it's more the inclusivity and welcome which is common to all. As has been mentioned previously, members come from many different traditions, and none, so opinions on liturgy vary. Some people also attend another church in the mornings (ours is an evening service), which for them might have a different liturgical importance (eg RCC mass).
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Prayer is not an occasional nod
Given in passing to God.
It's more like marriage - a closeness of living,
A constant receiving and giving. Louie Horne, 1987 QF&P 2.25
Posts: 54 | From: UK | Registered: May 2009
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thousandmillion
Apprentice
# 14524
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
MCC has to be Communion every Sunday.(wafers intincted, reflecting HIV concerns),
WHAT????!!!Even some of the most ultra-conservative/homophobic churches got over this one years ago and recognised that the shared chalice offers no risk of HIV transmission. Shouldn't MCC be leading by example on this?
Posts: 1 | From: Leicester | Registered: Jan 2009
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beachpsalms
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# 4979
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Posted
That could be concerns about transmitting germs to members with suppressed immune systems, not transmitting HIV.
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"You willing to die for that belief?"
"I am. 'Course, that ain't exactly Plan A."
Posts: 826 | From: a hamster's cheek-pouch full of raisins | Registered: Sep 2003
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Fr Paul
Apprentice
# 15109
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Laetere:
It could be that the ECC and MCC are related, they seem to share a similar outlook, and one worth listening to, I say.
[Code fix & attribution - DT Eccles Host]
[ 11. September 2009, 21:54: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
Posts: 9 | From: Portsmouth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Fr Paul
Apprentice
# 15109
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Posted
Sorry, I clicked before I was ready! ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
I should have said in the posting about same-sex weddings that I use the Anglican Rite of Marriage - I don't think they have a specific one for same-sex couples. The reason for this is that UECC teaches that all seven of the sacraments are open to everyone, and so the marriage rite is the same for all couples.
Can I also state very clearly that there is no connection between the UECC and the MCC, other than that which exsists between all of us as members of the body of Christ.
Love and blessings.
Posts: 9 | From: Portsmouth | Registered: Sep 2009
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Eddy
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# 3583
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Posted
Oh thats really nice of you Fr Paul to expalin that. The relationship then between UECC and MCC Church is one of shared aims ![[Biased]](wink.gif) and good aims they are too. It sounds as if UECC is more a Catholic church and MCC church we've heard is more Pentecostal.
Its really good to hear your views and contributions. I was interested to know that you use the Anglican marriage rite with some changes for same sex weddings. Thats interesting.
When you do the weddings do you have any extra ceremonies. I've heard, for example, about some peopl having wedding candles in the ceremony, and some places sharing a drink in the ceremony.
I'm hoping we'll here soon from the MCC church about how they do the same sex weddings as well.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Long Mire
Shipmate
# 13780
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
No - s/he cannot delegate the absolution or the eucharistic prayer, blessing and, arguably the sermon.
For lay people to feature prominently in a quasi-ordained role is to evacuate lay ministry of its true focus i.e. the secular world.
It is somewhat ironic that churches that make a bit issue (rightly) of social justice end up clericalising lay people rather than empowering them for their ministries in the outside world.
I think in MCC such delegation of who absolves etc. can take place.
However, I agree (and I surprise myself to write this!) with Leo. That the effect of involving laity in the way MCC do tends to clericalising. I suspect the minister in MCC and whoever else is / are the power/s behind the minister's throne, have a grasp on what is to be said and sung in their liturgy far more than in the Anglican Church and the Church of Rome, where a central authority moderates liturgy.
My fear is that it is not in lay appointed authority or church appointed ministry in such cases where liturgical authority lies but rather in a cabal of mates. That was rather confirmed to me when I was informed that the minister and one other person 'the power behind the throne' ruled the roost at the MCC I attended.
Posts: 100 | From: Liverpool | Registered: Jun 2008
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
But it seems to me that MCC don't have the Mass - they don't want to have the Mass, they don't believe in priests as a special ministry, and so surely anyone can take any of their services if they want them to. If thats so then naturally there will be some in the church that will lead more than others and some will be friendly with the pasta a bit more, and so make a group, maybe even an in crowd group. I've seen it happen in other places.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Long Mire
Shipmate
# 13780
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Posted
I met someone who used to worship with the MCC up this way and had an interesting conversation. He told me that he had made suggestions about worship, and offered help but had been ignored. He felt there was an 'in' group and he said he found the pastor a bully.
I can see that such groups, with people who often feel hurt and marginalised may have leaders who protect and nurture the vulnerable that attend, and sometimes their lack of experience will risk that manner being bullying in nature.
When such groups have worship which is 'free' and changing it is interesting to observe who actually makes the changes, and whose ideas are listened to. In some cases I suspect such cases can be run tyrannically by a pastor or a small group, and this man's experience of worship at MCC supports this.
A solution would be to allow different sections of the membership to lead at different times, and maybe even give them carte blanche. For example on one occasion worship could be lesbian led.
Posts: 100 | From: Liverpool | Registered: Jun 2008
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
I guess churches like this can suffer from leaders who are big fishes in little ponds.
I'm still a bit doubtful about a church whose origins or atmosphere is defined by sexuality. That does seem to have got priorities a bit odd. Oh dear! I can't quite explain what I mean by this, but inside I know! Maybe someone can try and help me on this. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
It does seem though that issues of sexuality etc. must colour greatly the worship / liturgy of the MCC Church, and some will find that uncomfortable, or one tracked.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
I know what you mean but an analogy would be the black-led Churches in the UK.
Many Anglican people from Jamaica found that they weren't welcome in English parish churches in the 1960s so they started their own churches or joined small existing ones which grew massively.
Some white people attend these churches because of the lively atmosphere and evangelical preaching but the main appeal is to do with 'race'.
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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Matariki
Shipmate
# 14380
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Posted
In an ideal world Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgendered Christians would all feel safe, welcomed and affirmed in a wide range of churches.
Sadly this is not the case and the MCC is a lifeboat for GLBT Christians from accross a range of traditions of worship. I know an independent majority GLBT congregation where worship alternates accross a spectrum over the course of a month from a 'high' celebration of the Eucharist to extempore worship. While messy it honours the spirituality of the whole range of its members. Celebrants and preachers are drawn from sympathetic clergy across a range of denominations.
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"Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accompanied alone; therefore we are saved by love." Reinhold Niebuhr.
Posts: 298 | From: Just across the Shire from Hobbiton | Registered: Dec 2008
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
I'm still a bit doubtful about a church whose origins or atmosphere is defined by sexuality. That does seem to have got priorities a bit odd. Oh dear! I can't quite explain what I mean by this, but inside I know! Maybe someone can try and help me on this.
Well... I'd posit that many churches quite clearly declare themselves to be based around heterosexuality. What's sauce for the goose...
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Amiyah
Shipmate
# 11989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
It does seem though that issues of sexuality etc. must colour greatly the worship / liturgy of the MCC Church, and some will find that uncomfortable, or one tracked.
Look up the thread Eddy. Rev Andy says "In Manchester we don't really talk much about sexuality but try and get on with being a church committed to helping people grow as disciples of the Lord Jesus" and I think that's true. Just because the people gathered are mainly LGBT it doesn't mean that the worship and liturgy are all about the sexuality of the congregation.
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Previously called MirrorMouse
Posts: 120 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2006
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
But thats not what I said.
I was talking about the roots of the MCC church. Its roots are in the LGBT community they say that. Mainstream churches don't advertise and say there roots are in a group defined by its sexuality.
I can see the problem, and know what christians can do to gays. BUT there are many many churches which welcome gays, have gay officers, or LGBT priests ministers or pasters. These are mainstream churches. The Church of England has LGBT friendly places so do Methodists RCs etc.
Has the MCC church actually anything extra / special to offer in worship or liturgy or is it as has been said a bit of a place where big fish like to swim in a small pool.
I don't know and I'm asking. I'm saying what my concern about a LGBT church is. I also think the tension about different beliefs within the church can be good, and better than splitting off.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
But - as I said - de facto, most churches are based on the heterosexual orientation. Just because it isn't in their mission statements doesn't make it so!
And finding a dark corner of one of these denominations in which things are fairly tolerant as long as you keep your head down does not - necessarily - improve matters that much.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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beachpsalms
Shipmate
# 4979
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Posted
It's a privilege thing... the mainstream churches don't need to declare their roots in heterosexual culture, because that culture is so dominant as to be seen as "normal".
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"You willing to die for that belief?"
"I am. 'Course, that ain't exactly Plan A."
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
DJO said:
"And finding a dark corner of one of these denominations in which things are fairly tolerant as long as you keep your head down does not - necessarily - improve matters that much."
Thats not my experience of the Church of England - its not dark corners that are tolerant - they are quite bright colorful places!
Maybe I need to revisit my discomfort with this MCC church thing. It seems I'm not quite putting my finger on the reason for my discomfort.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Honestly, I do understand it as well. Of course, a church shouldn't have to define itself in terms of its sexuality! Nevertheless, some Christians have come to the conclusion that this is the best way for them to be able to worship God with integrity. I would suggest that, regardless of their precise worship practices, this means that the MCC fulfill a 'gap in the market' if one wishes to be crude...
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Flinging wide the gates...
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
there are many many churches which welcome gays, have gay officers, or LGBT priests ministers or pasters. These are mainstream churches. The Church of England has LGBT friendly places so do Methodists RCs etc.
Has the MCC church actually anything extra / special to offer in worship or liturgy or is it as has been said a bit of a place where big fish like to swim in a small pool.
There aren't that many LGBT-friendly Anglican churches. In this diocese there are only three and they are in the same city. One of MOTR, the other two are bells and smells. So what do you do if you are evangelical and/or you live several miles out of the city?
MCC offers preaching that resonates with LGBT concerns e.g. see http://www.hrc.org/Scripture (not specifically MCC but many of its contributors are)
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
The point is Leo that there are three LGBT accepting churches in that one city, and how many MCC churches are there?
Nowadays LGBT people are often quite used to travelling for their jollies.
I'd understand MCC church a bit more if they had something special and distinctive to offer in their worship, like RCs have Mass, Methodists hymn singing, Quakers silence etc.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
The MCC is in the next city but this city has a flourishing LGCM group that meets in my church.
However, even though we are signed up to the inclusive Church agenda, there are some in the congregation who do not agree with this and they certainly wouldn't want lots of sermons related to LGBT issues (I have only mentioned the subject three times, as far as I can remember - twice in the wider context of the problems with the Anglican Communion and once to say that I did NOT think David and Jonathan were lovers).
LGBT Christians who are still in a coming out phase need feeding with the word that speaks to them directly, not just a few crumbs from the rest of us.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Fr Cuthbert
Shipmate
# 3953
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Posted
I suspect there are many churches like yours of the sign up to inclusivity but don't talk about it, Leo.
At least the signing up step has been taken.
One hopes that in years to come the necessity for a Metropolitan Community Church to exist will have gone. However, with all breakaway churches they tend to develop as distinct denominations and it is in their self interest to continue to exist. This is especially true of churches with paid clergy - to work towards closure could mean declaring one's self redundant!
I don't know much about the Metropolitan Community Church but I suspect they exist by drawing life from other denominations - hymns, songs, liturgy etc. and indeed members. After all none of its members, i suspect, will be born into that church.
I suspect there will be an emphasis on gender neutral language, and little tradition of their own.
Posts: 160 | Registered: Jan 2003
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
I was at my local seminary a few weeks ago, and the worship service was led by a MCC minister. The liturgy was standard mainline Protestant, only the minister (who wore just a stole over her plain clothes), sang the Eucharistic Prayer:
God be with you
And also with you
Lift up your hearts
We lift them to God
Let us give thanks to God
It is right to give God thanks and praise.
To my utter dismay, the Institution was jointly said by the ordained minister and a lay woman.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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CorgiGreta
Shipmate
# 443
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Posted
I am sure that there are any number of people born into the MCC.
There are members of the MCC who are heterosexual and bisexual. They often breed. Lesbians, with or without male partners, can and do have babies.
In addition, many gay and lesbian parents now adopt, a situation which is akin to cradle membership.
This leads me a question, though. Does the MCC practice infant baptism? In fact, I would be curious as to their baptismal practice generally.
It's too late for me to do reaserch tonight. Perhaps someone has the answer at hand.
Greta
Greta
Posts: 3677 | Registered: Jun 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I was at my local seminary a few weeks ago, and the worship service was led by a MCC minister. The liturgy was standard mainline Protestant, only the minister (who wore just a stole over her plain clothes), sang the Eucharistic Prayer:
God be with you
And also with you
Lift up your hearts
We lift them to God
Let us give thanks to God
It is right to give God thanks and praise.
To my utter dismay, the Institution was jointly said by the ordained minister and a lay woman.
Why to your utter dismay ?
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Cuthbert:
I suspect there are many churches like yours of the sign up to inclusivity but don't talk about it, Leo.
At least the signing up step has been taken.
One hopes that in years to come the necessity for a Metropolitan Community Church to exist will have gone. However, with all breakaway churches they tend to develop as distinct denominations and it is in their self interest to continue to exist. This is especially true of churches with paid clergy - to work towards closure could mean declaring one's self redundant!
I don't know much about the Metropolitan Community Church but I suspect they exist by drawing life from other denominations - hymns, songs, liturgy etc. and indeed members. After all none of its members, i suspect, will be born into that church.
I suspect there will be an emphasis on gender neutral language, and little tradition of their own.
The MCC doesn't poach people - it tends to attract people who are so disillusioned with 'mainline' church that they have stopped attending and they go on to find something in MCC that draws them back.I know of people, also, who attend mainline churches but go to MCC in addition, as a sort of 'top us'. This is not unlike some of our young servers who occasionally attend an evangelical independent church for the boost of a large number of similar aged folk or my occasionally attending a solemn mass with all the trimmings.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ThinkČ:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I was at my local seminary a few weeks ago, and the worship service was led by a MCC minister. The liturgy was standard mainline Protestant, only the minister (who wore just a stole over her plain clothes), sang the Eucharistic Prayer:
God be with you
And also with you
Lift up your hearts
We lift them to God
Let us give thanks to God
It is right to give God thanks and praise.
To my utter dismay, the Institution was jointly said by the ordained minister and a lay woman.
Why to your utter dismay ?
I'm not a fan of lay presidency, and I can only see a possible justification of it if there is no ordained clergy present. If an ordained minister is present, then she should preside over Holy Communion, that is the role of ordained clergy.
I guess I'm too catholic for the MCC.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
Leo wrote:
" know of people, also, who attend mainline churches but go to MCC in addition, as a sort of 'top us'. This is not unlike some of our young servers who occasionally attend an evangelical independent church for the boost of a large number of similar aged folk or my occasionally attending a solemn mass with all the trimmings."
I can see that, Leo, and I'm grateful for the point myself. LGBT people at times benefit from good safe space. I can see that maybe MCC church worship helps.
But why does it need to be a seperate church to do this. Why a splinter group? Why not a movement within churches or an ecumenical weekday group say like LGCM?
The trouble I'm feeling is that to continue in existence the MCC church has to keep on saying LGBT guys are persecuted by churches so come to us. Thats not actually very friendly to other churches. Its true sometimes but not really in many churches - if people are careful about which they go to.
So I can guess MCC church worship could have a feel of the bunkered in about it.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
Eddy, instead of hypothesising about the MCC and its worship/worship experience, why don't you just visit an MCC congregation? I've never felt the need to do so myself, but you are clearly fascinated with the MCC. I think that as Anglicans we are pretty advantaged to have accepting, inclusive clergy and congregations, so there tends to be less felt need for something like the MCC. People I have known who were into the MCC or other predominantly gay ecclesial communities had come either from the RCC or from various evangelical, fundamentalist denoms, so you can understand why they might have left those churches for a more accepting place. Unfortunately, not all Anglican dioceses (even provinces) and parishes are inclusive places, so for some people a move to the local array of Anglican parishes isn't going to be a solution and our liturgical traditions may also feel too foreign and odd for some people who've come out of evangelical sects (I know it can be hard to accept that some people don't find liturgical worship and ceremonial attractive, but that's the fact of the matter). So I think there's a place for the MCC.
[ 24. October 2009, 21:46: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
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Eddy
Shipmate
# 3583
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Posted
MCC New York has some fantastic ministries.
They seem to have stuff which emphasises the queer message to the Church - like: Bible Study is described as "A queer reading of the Bible incorporating art, videos, debates & books."
Thats what I was expecting MCC worship to be about and to be proud to be. Say "A queer liturgy for LGBT people" but actually from whats being said it sounds at least in England to be a bit in the corner protestant service.
Posts: 3237 | From: London, UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:
Originally posted by ThinkČ:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
I was at my local seminary a few weeks ago, and the worship service was led by a MCC minister. The liturgy was standard mainline Protestant, only the minister (who wore just a stole over her plain clothes), sang the Eucharistic Prayer:
God be with you
And also with you
Lift up your hearts
We lift them to God
Let us give thanks to God
It is right to give God thanks and praise.
To my utter dismay, the Institution was jointly said by the ordained minister and a lay woman.
Why to your utter dismay ?
I'm not a fan of lay presidency, and I can only see a possible justification of it if there is no ordained clergy present. If an ordained minister is present, then she should preside over Holy Communion, that is the role of ordained clergy.
I guess I'm too catholic for the MCC.
I guess that I thought saying it with the priest meant it wasn't lay presidency - just a bit odd.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
Eddy, I imagine there is greater diversity of worship styles in the MCC in the States than in the UK. While that might seem self-evident based on the larger population of the US and the fact that the MCC is much better established here, I think the congregational autonomy thing may really be what is at work. Actually I understand that some MCC congos in the US are fairly liturgical and I believe this would be true of the Cathedral of Hope in Dallas, even though it's actually no longer MCC, having left the denom and affiliated with the United Church of Christ. That also brings up the question of baptismal practice again, since the UCC normally practise paedobaptism.
I think there'd be little point in the MCC copying Anglican liturgy and ceremonial, since anyone attracted to Anglican liturgy could usually (though not always or everywhere) find an inclusive Anglican parish.
Perhaps the MCC has also been less successful in the UK due to the greater apathy and contempt toward Christianity by so many in the UK, in contrast to the greater number of believers in the USA.
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Amiyah
Shipmate
# 11989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Eddy, instead of hypothesising about the MCC and its worship/worship experience, why don't you just visit an MCC congregation?
I couldn't agree more. The current thread would seem to be a remarkably inefficient and profitless way to explore/research the worship of the MCC. Eddy presents hypotheses/makes assertions based on no experience of the church, and lots of people who have actually been to the MCC or at least know something about it post (often) to disagree with that assertion/hypothesis. Just as Eddy can't quite put his finger on what disquiets him about the MCC whilst finding it fascinating, I can't put my finger on why the pattern of this thread is so irritating to me, yet I can't stop reading it.
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Wottinger
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Some time ago MCC worshipped in our building on a weekly basis. I attended and preached a few times.
They were friendly and relaxed in worship. I think the style of their gatherings will depend a lot on the pastor, and key leaders. There is no fixed liturgy.
With us they were pretty mainstream in style. Music was very important to them, and seemed to be a significant part of their liturgy preparation. Because of having no fixed liturgy they could draw on a variety of sources - and Iona, Common Worship and one or two others seemed to crop up often.
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Fr Cuthbert
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I have been thinking about liturgy, LGBT issues and churches, and the MCC.
It's interesting that MCC has no fixed liturgy or style. Most churches do. Even if there is not a suggested liturgy there are often guidelines, or styles. The fact that MCC draws on other churches so much, and has no definite house style of its own suggests to me it is more a gathering of varied LGBT people for worship than a church in the traditional sense.
This interesting church is very interesting. Here within their gatherings they have differing styles from time to time, reflecting the different origins of the members. It suggests that the LGBT people and others who are members go for something extra to their own churches / denominations which they attend regularly. I can see this and would support this far more than breaking away and setting up a small denomination by itself such as MCC. After all to exist MCC as a denomination would deliberately draw in people from other churches and not encourage attendance or giving to churches other than themselves.
The Auckland church seems more like a movement, which owns to draw from different traditions and welcomes them. Interestingly this Christian Community left MCC because they felt they were being pushed too hard down one approach to church order, and wished to be a freer more open group than MCC.
My current thought is that MCC clearly lacks liturgical identity.
The Auckland church does not claim to be a seperate denomination and understandably encourages clergy of many churches to come and celebrate their liturgy within it.
The difference between the two groups may appear at first subtle but I suspect it is a profound difference.
[ 29. October 2009, 18:39: Message edited by: Fr Cuthbert ]
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Eddy
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Fr Cuthbert writes
quote:
My current thought is that MCC clearly lacks liturgical identity.
I think thats very true because they seem to vary from church to church as to what they do. They are a congregational style church, led its being said by So if you went from one to another there isnt much except the AIDS candle thing which would identify there worship as being of the same church.
Now I guess some would say that about the C of E, but actually I reckon most C of E use Common Worship and have a hymn book that people know as being C of E.
PS MCC Nottingham is in 'Queens Walk' - makes me wonder what other addresses fit with the church thats in them
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Oremus
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It makes me wonder why this Auckland gay Church feels the need to have a seperate service why they meet in what is clearly a very "inclusive" church which would surely welcome them to its regular services.
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Mark Wuntoo
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quote:
Originally posted by Oremus:
It makes me wonder why this Auckland gay Church feels the need to have a seperate service why they meet in what is clearly a very "inclusive" church which would surely welcome them to its regular services.
(tangent alert)
I think that's an interesting point. It reminds me of a somewhat similar situation with London's 'black' pentecostal churches. Many were established many years ago and I have no problem with them. But there are still small breakaways that start-up and meet outside of any (black or white) denominational links. In London, many of the 'white' denominations have black congregations where all are welcome. So why the need to start up your own group?
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Bishops Finger
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Because it's more fun being a big fish in yer own small pond, rather than a small fish in someone else's bigger pond?
I cast no nasturtiums........but that is the impression given by some of the leaders of these breakaway groups.
Ian J.
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Eddy
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I agree with Bishops Finger on this one. Some people move from a bigger church to a smaller one to be a big fish, if you get me.
It does seem from what Longmire wrote earlier that the MCC church he knows about has a group of big fish in its little pond.
Sometimes I think those who failed to become ministers or priests in one church move to another to get what they want.
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Mark Wuntoo
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I agree, too. Although there is sometimes the fact that the 'welcoming' church is not welcoming. ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Eddy
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It does seem that the MCC church uses lots of different styles in their worship and activity. This MCC church offers "programs exploring varied paths to the holy."
Hindu Tantra is being taught. The MCC church encourages this way, saying it is "a set of principles, practices, and attitudes that include the mind, heart, and whole body on the path to enlightenment. Far more than a way to improve your sex life, Tantra offers us the potential of experiencing our erotic energy as spiritual "rocket fuel"!"
Its interesting how they connect sex life and spirituality. Perhaps this is a special contribution they are making to the church?
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Bishops Finger
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Hmm. Sounds a bit like our old friends the Agapemonites, Hugh Prince, Smyth-Pigott et al......
....and look what happened to them!
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Eddy
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Can u say a bit more on that topic Bishop's Finger - what did happen to them
It seems in this MCC church set up anything goes and you can wear what you like, do what you like in worship, say what you like, as long as you are gay friendly! (Which I think churches should be, of course)
Maybe theMCC Church could develop along there path and they could become an inter faith gay church, that would be a very interesting sign to offer.
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Bishops Finger
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The Agapemonites all died out........
Here's what Wikipedia has to say (usual disclaimers apply):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agapemonites
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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Eddy
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Thats a interesting group Bishops Finger, you certainly have a wide knowledge. I guess there are groups like that that fade away thru time and it could be some churches of today like the URC Church or MCC church fade away soon.
I was wondering about the MCC church and if they have special Gay Saints or LGBT saints in their Kalendars. I mean like Harvey Milk or so on, or do they just keep a watered down church Kalendar, or maybe not at all as they are mainly protestant in worship and style.
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