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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Pope announces plans for Anglicans to convert in groups
Albertus
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Just out of interest- and I'm definitely not trying to make a party point here- what would be the score for Anglican clergy/congregations that use the Roman Rite if they went over under the proposed plan? Would they have to de-Romanise their liturgy?

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chiltern_hundred
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AIUI, they'd be required to adopt the Book of Divine Worship, which is more Anglican than what they use now and more Roman than the BCP. I am happy to be corrected by anyone who has more accurate information than I do.

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Just out of interest- and I'm definitely not trying to make a party point here- what would be the score for Anglican clergy/congregations that use the Roman Rite if they went over under the proposed plan? Would they have to de-Romanise their liturgy?



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"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." - Galileo Galilei

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Fifi
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quote:
Originally posted by chiltern_hundred:
AIUI, they'd be required to adopt the Book of Divine Worship, which is more Anglican than what they use now and more Roman than the BCP. I am happy to be corrected by anyone who has more accurate information than I do.

quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Just out of interest- and I'm definitely not trying to make a party point here- what would be the score for Anglican clergy/congregations that use the Roman Rite if they went over under the proposed plan? Would they have to de-Romanise their liturgy?


Not so.

From the Apostolic Constitution:

'III. Without excluding liturgical celebrations according to the Roman Rite, the Ordinariate has the faculty to celebrate the Holy Eucharist and the other Sacraments, the Liturgy of the Hours and other liturgical celebrations according to the liturgical books proper to the Anglican tradition, which have been approved by the Holy See, so as to maintain the liturgical, spiritual and pastoral traditions of the Anglican Communion within the Catholic Church, as a precious gift nourishing the faith of the members of the Ordinariate and as a treasure to be shared.'

(Emphasis added by me)

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Albertus
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Very clear- thanks

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St. Punk the Pious

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Perhaps this question should be a separate thread. But, apparently, ++Rowan has told ++Vincent that the sale of CofE properties to the Romans is impossible.

I am puzzled by this as the CofE certainly could use the money and many of these old buildings are very expensive to maintain.

Perhaps those more familiar with arcane CofE property issues than I can unpuzzle me a bit. (Some of the discussion on page 18 is already helpful.)

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Divine Outlaw
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quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:


But it seems to me that anyone who has a real "issue" with anything in the Catechism, to the point of being unwilling to give inner assent to it, is quite possibly not ready to become a Catholic.

What the Catholic Church requires of people received individually into communion with it is that they assent to all those doctrines which the Catholic Church believes to be divinely revealed.

Are you seriously suggesting that a committed Christian believing the creeds, the doctrines of the councils and the ex cathedra statements of Popes ought not to become a Catholic because, say, she cannot agree with the Catechism's teaching on masturbation, or that Christians have a duty to vote in elections, say? That just seems bizarre.

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Divine Outlaw
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Vicar Threatened

Although I am saddened by what happened, Fr Ed's blog makes rather like it was the local SCP chapter wot dunnit. Disgraceful.
The discussion threads to both of these blogs make the Ship look like a Very Christian Website Indeed.

While I am disgusted at the vandalism, and concerned for Fr Waller and his people, it's sad that both of the priests imply that their main motive for becoming Roman Catholics would be despair at the Church of England. This is exactly the wrong reason, as Archbishop Nichols says very clearly.

I actually know both priests from my Anglican days. Whilst that may have been the impression given by the reports, I don't think it's really where they are coming from.

[ 27. November 2009, 15:52: Message edited by: Divine Outlaw Dwarf ]

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Knopwood
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quote:
Originally posted by Edward Green:
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Vicar Threatened

Although I am saddened by what happened, Fr Ed's blog makes rather like it was the local SCP chapter wot dunnit. Disgraceful.
Well, quite. I hardly think that vandalism is the sort of thing even the wooliest of liberals in the CoE would countenance. If anything, this reads like a Church Society job! [/irony] I find it curious (to be polite) that Fr Tomlinson is so stricken by what he perceives as AffCath's lack of charity given that his posts stand very much in the old school of "gin, lace, and backbiting." Definitely not part of the new friendly face of FiF.

What immediately struck me about the attack in question was that it must have been carried out by someone who had some knowledge of AC movement in the CoE, and who has followed the developments of the constitution. Obviously S. Saviour's is a Papalist parish - resolution C, Roman Rite (I should imagine anyway - I'm open to correction), and as I recall their last curate went over to Rome ahead of the apostolic constitution. But the defacing was obviously done by someone who knew all this, and not by some drunken young ruffian who didn't care about his target (i.e. the sort of person I would expect this sort of thing from). But I suppose you never really know.

[ 27. November 2009, 16:30: Message edited by: LQ ]

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf:
I actually know both priests from my Anglican days. Whilst that may have been the impression given by the reports, I don't think it's really where they are coming from.

It's good to know that. I suppose too that either of them, in the exasperation of the moment, could let slip comments about the C of E which wouldn't necessarily represent their considered opinion.

Re: the vandalism... could it not simply be coincidence? ie. a drunken follower of some quasi-fascist protestant sect (they do still exist, though even Paisley is probably above that sort of thing), who sees the word 'Mass' on an Anglican noticeboard and reacts predictably. He (probably a 'he') might not even have heard of the Pope's recent move.

Re; the 'impossibility' of the C of E selling church buildings to the Ordinariate. Isn't it more likely that the RCC wouldn't want to be saddled with them? After all, they are closing churches because their congregations have dropped below the size needed to maintain them, which is much greater than that of most struggling - or even average - Anglican congregations. I can't imagine that a congregation 'converting' en masse would be as big as even 100.

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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Edward Green/Angloid - I've just looked at Fr. Ed's blog, and I can't for the life of me see how you read that SCP thing into it. Am I reading the right page? All he said was a passing comment about Traditionalists vs. Liberals in the church generally - a POV I disagree with BTW, but one commonly held on both sides of this divide.

Is it on another page to that linked?

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf:
I actually know both priests from my Anglican days. Whilst that may have been the impression given by the reports, I don't think it's really where they are coming from.

I wondered if it was around your old gaff.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
Well, quite. I hardly think that vandalism is the sort of thing even the wooliest of liberals in the CoE would countenance. If anything, this reads like a Church Society job! [/irony] I

Spreading nasty lies about fellow Christians isn't negated by wrapping the word "irony" around it. Though you do manage to show that you probably don't know what "irony" means.

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Ken

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Knopwood
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That really wasn't my intent, and if that was how it came across, I disavow that portion of my remarks.
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ken
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Sorry, maybe over-reacted.

Weird as the Church Society are (I can't quite get my head around simultaneously supporting the English Establishment and Calvinist Evangelicalism - they don't go together in my book - and I neither understand nor sympathise with their obsession with homosexuality) I don't think they are the sort of people who go in for vandalising church buildings. Grumpy whinges over the sherry after Morning Prayer maybe, but that's about as hard as they get. Not a lot of Rangers supporters in that on the whole rather pleasant and doctrinally very orthodox and very Anglican bunch of people (not that I have anything against Rangers supporters. Quite a lot of my relatives are Rangers supporters)

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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FreeJack
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quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
Perhaps this question should be a separate thread. But, apparently, ++Rowan has told ++Vincent that the sale of CofE properties to the Romans is impossible.

I am puzzled by this as the CofE certainly could use the money and many of these old buildings are very expensive to maintain.

Perhaps those more familiar with arcane CofE property issues than I can unpuzzle me a bit. (Some of the discussion on page 18 is already helpful.)

Well, it isn't strictly impossible, but so rare, difficult and time-consuming as to be not a major option across-the-board.

I refer the Hon. Gentleman to my post on page 18.

The 'CofE' does not exist in terms of owning things. It is a spiritual entity, but it is not the money owning or spending bit.

The Church Commissioners are a joint body of Church and State who act as trustees of the national property of the Church of England, and pay the clergy and retired clergy pensions, and many other things. They must act as charity trustees and in the manner required by Parliament and the other legitimate authorities of church and state.

A major change to their function would require major primary legislation, which would be difficult to get through Parliament and would need the government to allocate time to something with no political advantage. ++Canterbury is one of the Commission but has no real power in that context, they must follow professional legal advice.

There are a whole range of other charitable trusts and officials which own or pay the other charitable trusts in the line from parish to diocese to the national church.

Thus in general church buildings are held in tension and trust between the national church trust (but this is not under the control of the General Synod or Archbishops), the diocesan trust and the local corporation sole - the vicar in office. So the Vicar in office has the right to remain in the vicarage, he rents it free from a charitable trust of which he is the only living trustee! But if he defects to Rome, then he automatically stops holding that position and his successor takes over.

The congregation have absolutely no possession rights over the church physical property.

The diocese only gets rights during a vacancy and a suspension. If a parish church becomes non-viable as a separate church it may be merged with a neighbouring church, in which case that Vicar gets the rights over that church as well, or closed. Even if closed and sold, the money gets split between the diocese and church commissioners, they must achieve a market price. Nothing to stop the RC bidding at this point, but they would have to have enough money and need for it. But no special favours can be done.

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Qoheleth.

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A lovely lighter moment at 25:30 on The Now Show (available BBC iPlayer in UK only).

Possibly the first time that the Angelic Doctor has been rhymed with the female internal genitalia. Or maybe not the first.... [Biased]

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Stranger in a strange land
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Thank you FreeJack for a comprehensible explanation of the position (as I struggle to understand it).
I think this portion is worthy of comment.

quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:

Thus in general church buildings are held in tension and trust between the national church trust (but this is not under the control of the General Synod or Archbishops), the diocesan trust and the local corporation sole - the vicar in office. ...

The congregation have absolutely no possession rights over the church physical property.

The interesting moral question is that in most cases the national church and its trust, and the diocesan church and its trust, will have paid ne'er a penny towards the building, ehanancement or maintenance of the building. Probably most of the anglo-catholic churches will have been built by the vicar in office or the local congregation and the upkeep will also have been entirly at their expense.
Obviously with ancient churches the original building was 'acquired' by the national church but has foe very many years been entirly funded locally).

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FreeJack
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quote:
Originally posted by Stranger in a strange land:
The interesting moral question is that in most cases the national church and its trust, and the diocesan church and its trust, will have paid ne'er a penny towards the building, ehanancement or maintenance of the building. Probably most of the anglo-catholic churches will have been built by the vicar in office or the local congregation and the upkeep will also have been entirly at their expense.
Obviously with ancient churches the original building was 'acquired' by the national church but has foe very many years been entirly funded locally).

Thanks. My post wasn't 100% technically accurate but for non-CofE specialists conveys the sort of inter-woven charitable complexity of it all.

You make the key point again. Congregations, collectively or individually do not own the buildings or its fittings or even the PCC cash bank account.

Once you give money to a charity it is theirs not yours, you have no residual control over it. (You may in certain circumstances place restrictions at point of gift.)

If I give £10 to Cancer Research and then in ten years time, decide I'd rather have given it to the RSPCA, I can't ask Cancer Research to forward the money on to the RSPCA, and they must not do it.

If I give £10 to a CofE PCC, I cannot subsequently ask for it to be forwarded to a RC diocese when I convert. I cannot insist that the PCC never changes its churchmanship - indeed a PCC does not have one. A PCC cannot convert to Rome, by law it must be part of the CofE. It must serve all its parishioners, not just the clique who 'run' the church. If a PCC goes off the rails, then eventually the diocese and/or parish meetings will bring it back into line.

(Probably another reason, the RCC don't want to get too involved with Anglican buildings and finance. As I understand it most ordinary RC churches are owned by the diocese, or a monastic order, not individual parishes.)

There are a few evangelical and anglo-catholic charities that are designed to be slightly more portable, if its leaders change denomination, but it is very hard to do that, without basically just naming the trustees at a point in time.

So the moral point is if you give money to a charity, you have given it, you must have no residual benefit from it, except perhaps a warm inner glow, and even that can be dangerous if you start thinking of it as 'my altar rail' or 'my hymn book' in 'my church' because 'I paid for it.'

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The Man with a Stick
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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
quote:
Originally posted by Stranger in a strange land:
The interesting moral question is that in most cases the national church and its trust, and the diocesan church and its trust, will have paid ne'er a penny towards the building, ehanancement or maintenance of the building. Probably most of the anglo-catholic churches will have been built by the vicar in office or the local congregation and the upkeep will also have been entirly at their expense.
Obviously with ancient churches the original building was 'acquired' by the national church but has foe very many years been entirly funded locally).

Thanks. My post wasn't 100% technically accurate but for non-CofE specialists conveys the sort of inter-woven charitable complexity of it all.

You make the key point again. Congregations, collectively or individually do not own the buildings or its fittings or even the PCC cash bank account.

Once you give money to a charity it is theirs not yours, you have no residual control over it. (You may in certain circumstances place restrictions at point of gift.)

If I give £10 to Cancer Research and then in ten years time, decide I'd rather have given it to the RSPCA, I can't ask Cancer Research to forward the money on to the RSPCA, and they must not do it.

If I give £10 to a CofE PCC, I cannot subsequently ask for it to be forwarded to a RC diocese when I convert. I cannot insist that the PCC never changes its churchmanship - indeed a PCC does not have one. A PCC cannot convert to Rome, by law it must be part of the CofE. It must serve all its parishioners, not just the clique who 'run' the church. If a PCC goes off the rails, then eventually the diocese and/or parish meetings will bring it back into line.

(Probably another reason, the RCC don't want to get too involved with Anglican buildings and finance. As I understand it most ordinary RC churches are owned by the diocese, or a monastic order, not individual parishes.)

There are a few evangelical and anglo-catholic charities that are designed to be slightly more portable, if its leaders change denomination, but it is very hard to do that, without basically just naming the trustees at a point in time.

So the moral point is if you give money to a charity, you have given it, you must have no residual benefit from it, except perhaps a warm inner glow, and even that can be dangerous if you start thinking of it as 'my altar rail' or 'my hymn book' in 'my church' because 'I paid for it.'

There is potentially a case in Equity if not in common law for a church building entirely built by "catholic" funding. Likely unsuccessful, but a possibility.
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FreeJack
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quote:
Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
There is potentially a case in Equity if not in common law for a church building entirely built by "catholic" funding. Likely unsuccessful, but a possibility.

Almost certainly unsuccessful. I cannot think of a single case where this has been done, not even when there has been say an HTB takeover and a real change of churchmanship.

I cannot think the Roman Catholic Church would be remotely interested in it. An expensive court case with the Church of England trying to use some principle of non-statute to overturn a statutory provision before judges who will most likely be closet Anglicans. In order to 'win' a church with enormous heating and maintenance bills and which would become a focal point for disunity. Dream on, John.

And if the change of churchmanship is only from say FiF to a moderate AffCathism then you would have a hard job saying that Roman Catholicism is closer 'somehow' to the original FiF donors than AffCath anglo-catholicism, even if you could work out who the donors were.

(I can see complications of the equity type where you have a parish with districts of different churchmanship and the PCC over-rules the DCC or similar.)

If FiF are really planning to sue the CofE then that will kill whatever goodwill there may be in General Synod towards those that remain.

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Sir Pellinore
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I'm not sure why people keep worrying about the possibility of a brangle over Anglican Church property which might become redundant with the rise of the new ordinariats. This really is worrying about nothing.

I suspect the new ordinariats, like the TAC, will mostly hold services on the premises of Latin Rite Catholic churches which already exist.

The prospective great move across the Tiber is not going to happen.

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
I cannot think the Roman Catholic Church would be remotely interested in it.

Too bloody right.

In my day job, I am the Financial Secretary of a Catholic Diocese - the job is a sort of combination of Diocesan Secretary and Diocesan Treasurer in CofE terms. I can assure you that there is absolutely no appetite for the kind of dispute you envisage.

I think it also important to recognise that the way we are organised means that in these kinds of cases, there's no such a thing as a collective Catholic entity. The apostolic constitution Anglicanorum Coetibus establishes, in the Ordinariates, new juridic persons, i.e. new canonical entities with the right to acquire, administer and alienate their own property free from the interference of others (subject to certain hierarchical oversight provisions). Therefore, should a congregation geographically located in, say, my diocese wish to join the ordinariate, issues of property are strictly its own business not my Bishop's.

In England and Wales the legal structure of ownership of property is that diocesan trusts own all the real and moveable property of the diocese (excluding that owned by individuals and religious orders). This is a hang-over from the time, pre-1909, when parishes were strictly only 'missions' for canonical purposes. The structure envisaged in both the 1917 and 1983 Codes of Canon Law (and indeed in the Septem Librorum which preceded 1917) is rather more like the CofE structure, i.e. that parishes (that is properly erected parishes and not missions) are juridic persons with all the rights that go with that status. Accordingly, they would 'own' their own parishes. Since 1909 (when England and Wales ceased to be 'mission territory') there has been no attempt to devolve the properties held by the dioceses to the parishes and for a whole host of reasons I can't see that happening. With the ordinariates, if parishes (personally rather than territorially defines, I suspect) are established, and having regard to what we are encouraged to refer to as 'Anglican Patrimony', it might well be that they would own their own property rather than it being vested in the ordinariate.

[ 29. November 2009, 09:50: Message edited by: Trisagion ]

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Edward Green
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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Edward Green/Angloid - I've just looked at Fr. Ed's blog, and I can't for the life of me see how you read that SCP thing into it.

quote:
Father Waller’s board expresses what many of us are starting to fear- that we are actually hated within our own family, who have no real desire to help us, but will seek to hurt us if we stay and hurt us if we go. Pray God that this fear is entirely unfounded.
I guess it depends how you read 'family'. As I see the traditionalists as part of the 'Reformed Catholic' family perhaps I took it too personally?

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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Ah - I see. I had read it to mean Anglicanism in general. But who knows?

Thanks for responding anyway.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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leo
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# 1458

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Given the fashion for public apologies for things done by our ancestors, maybe we Anglicans should give back to the RCC the buildings we stole from them at the Reformation.

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Augustine the Aleut
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I may be tangenting too much on an already-overtanged thread, but perhaps a solution might be found in the French model where, if I understand it correctly, the Republic owns the buildings, and leases them to "cultic associations." This would solve not only several disestablishment-related questions, but also safeguard the preservation of the religious built heritage of the English people (for argument's sake, everything pre-1867, the year of the first Lambeth conference).

Leases could be distributed either to PCCs, or even to inter-church consortia. This would allow for the Ordinariate to snap up a few less-used Butterfield or Ninian Comper joints, the Latin Rite folks could comfort themselves with some ancient saints' shrines, the CoE could breathe more easily as surplus churches (a growing designation) find homes and local congregations would get a respite from maintenance and externally-imposed reno costs.

With greater clarity among all on building ownership, we might even have less desecration of godly spiritual edifices with power-point screens and amplifiers.

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trouty
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# 13497

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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Given the fashion for public apologies for things done by our ancestors, maybe we Anglicans should give back to the RCC the buildings we stole from them at the Reformation.

Maybe if they were to repay the money spent on the upkeep of these churches since that time.
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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Given the fashion for public apologies for things done by our ancestors, maybe we Anglicans should give back to the RCC the buildings we stole from them at the Reformation.

Ken will surely be along in a minute with his standard argument that proves to his entire satisfaction that they weren't stolen.

Nevertheless, the reality is that we don't want them back, thanks: the upkeep would be far too expensive.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by trouty:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Given the fashion for public apologies for things done by our ancestors, maybe we Anglicans should give back to the RCC the buildings we stole from them at the Reformation.

Maybe if they were to repay the money spent on the upkeep of these churches since that time.
Only of we could set against those monies, the chantry Mass stipends that were appropriated at the time.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Leetle Masha

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I hear a sound in the background.... "Cha-ching!!!!" and soon after that sound, I hear the swish of a scourge of small cords whooshing through the air, tables being overturned, general chaos....

[/tangent]

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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner

Posts: 6351 | From: Hesychia, in Hyperdulia | Registered: Aug 2004  |  IP: Logged
Leetle Masha

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Of course, things are tough all over. We can't get this one back either, minus the added enhancements....

background music

[Biased]

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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner

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FreeJack
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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

With greater clarity among all on building ownership, we might even have less desecration of godly spiritual edifices with power-point screens and amplifiers.

Without the evangelical renewal of the CofE over the past 20 years even more such buildings would have been declared surplus and sold off for luxury flats.

Surprisingly enough Archdeacons and Chancellors increasingly tend to take the view that it is better to 'desecrate' a place of worship in use with some modern equipment than to knock it down.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Ken will surely be along in a minute with his standard argument that proves to his entire satisfaction that they weren't stolen.

Just cos you don't like it doesn't stop it being true.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Trisagion
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Ken will surely be along in a minute with his standard argument that proves to his entire satisfaction that they weren't stolen.

Just cos you don't like it doesn't stop it being true.
'Certo, to be sure', as we say 'round here.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Edward Green
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# 46

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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

With greater clarity among all on building ownership, we might even have less desecration of godly spiritual edifices with power-point screens and amplifiers.

Without the evangelical renewal of the CofE over the past 20 years even more such buildings would have been declared surplus and sold off for luxury flats.

Not to mention past 'desecrations' with pews, pipe organs, hymn books, screens, eagles, pulpits, vain memorials, etc.

I used to worship in a church with a less than practical altar cross with the words inscribed 'To the Glory of God, and in memory of so-and-so ...... who died on the xxth of month 19**'

The text wrapped round the cross base so the text on the front read:

'To the Glory of God who died on the xxth of month 19**'

Give me power-point any day!

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blog//twitter//
linkedin

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Augustine the Aleut
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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:

With greater clarity among all on building ownership, we might even have less desecration of godly spiritual edifices with power-point screens and amplifiers.

Without the evangelical renewal of the CofE over the past 20 years even more such buildings would have been declared surplus and sold off for luxury flats.

Surprisingly enough Archdeacons and Chancellors increasingly tend to take the view that it is better to 'desecrate' a place of worship in use with some modern equipment than to knock it down.

Not wishing to further derail a thread which has begun to resemble a major railway junction, I am not certain that I see the connexion between an evangelical revival in the English church and these horrid things. They are certainly common enough in churches of various leanings, and are to be found disfiguring many RC churches-- a nicely carved statue of Saint Viateur in Casselman, Ontario now sits behind an amplifier where the heat from the apparatus is now degrading its Victorian paint work. As of yet, the Orthodox seem spared (but this may be on account of their not having hooked up their churches to electricity).
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Yangtze
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# 4965

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Interrupting this serious discussion to ask if anyone else heard the fabulous Midge Benn "The Pope Wants Vicars" song on Friday night's Now Show

Available on Listen Again here about 25 minutes in (ie just before the end)

[I was going to quote a few lines, but they didn't come across very well - really need to hear the whole thing]

I caught it on Friday night and laughed and laughed and then my mind went immediately to this thread. Enjoy. Or hate.

But it does give an interesting insight into how the outside world (albeit the R4 version of the outside world) is perceiving the whole thing.

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Arthur & Henry Ethical Shirts for Men
organic cotton, fair trade cotton, linen

Sometimes I wonder What's for Afters?

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Leetle Masha

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For sure, every vicar needs to know that the R4 World is out there, in every Church. They'd better be ready! Thanks, Yangtse!

Mary

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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner

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Leetle Masha

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Apologies for suffering from British spelling syndrome, needed for my w*rk, but affecting my typing of your Ship Name, dear Yangtze! [Hot and Hormonal]

Mary
(aware that the R4 world also exists in the U.S. [Ultra confused] )

[ 01. December 2009, 14:39: Message edited by: Leetle Masha ]

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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner

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Loveheart

Blue-scarved menace
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I now have a 10yo daughter, shocked at the mention of vaginas [Hot and Hormonal]

Very funny! [Devil]

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You must not lose faith in humanity. Humanity is an ocean; if a few drops of the ocean are dirty, the ocean does not become dirty. Mahatma Gandhi

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uffda
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I was going to resist the temptation to go there, but after your post, Loveheart, I just had to find out what it was all about!
[Big Grin]

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Invincibly ignorant and planning to stay that way!

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bonabri
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How many "pagans" will be knocking on church doors demanding their temples back soon?

[ 01. December 2009, 15:57: Message edited by: bonabri ]

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Albertus
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# 13356

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Yes, there's the Pantheon, for a start, just down the road from Benny the Rat himself!

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Leetle Masha

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I used to know an Orthodox Christian priest who thought that the echo in the marble concourse of a large railroad station would make that railroad station ideal for a Paschal Divine Liturgy.

So if somebody wants a church back, there's always the railway station!

Mary

[ 01. December 2009, 17:09: Message edited by: Leetle Masha ]

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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner

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Albertus
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# 13356

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And I always thought it a pity (well, it is anyway) that Battersea Power Station has been left in ruins- would have made a splendid cathedral.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Angloid
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# 159

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Just as Liverpool Cathedral (same architect) would make a splendid railway station. Just think, we could do a swap with Liverpool Central: great cathedral for the postmodernist world. [Roll Eyes]

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Leetle Masha

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See how creative we can be when we set our minds to it?

[Cool]

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eleison me, tin amartolin: have mercy on me, the sinner

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Christian Agnostic
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I think all the pope wants is better church music/church musicians.

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Words to the wise: Don't read Kierkegaard when you're 16, and always set B.S. detectors to 11. "How can I sing a strange song in the Lord's land?"

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
And I always thought it a pity (well, it is anyway) that Battersea Power Station has been left in ruins- would have made a splendid cathedral.

I thought it became the tate modern ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Oremus
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No Tate Modern is Bankside,
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