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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Pope announces plans for Anglicans to convert in groups
Triple Tiara

Ship's Papabile
# 9556

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Kung's article is a poisonous piece of rhetoric riddled with errors from start to finish. Which is a scandal for someone who claims to be an academic. It's just one more piece of weaponry he seems to believe he has against the Pope - but it's a load of bunkum. Just three things:

First, this was not on the Pope's initiative. I wonder how often that will need to be stated. He did not send envoys to sniff out conservative Anglicans in the dead of night to say "come over to the dark side". He was responding to rather persistent appeals from some Anglicans.

Secondly, full communion means precisely that: full communion. When I visit churches of the Byzantine Rite, I am in full communion, I can concelebrate, I can receive Holy Communion. Likewise those of other rites can do the same with the Roman Rite: Ukrainian Rite Catholics are entirely free to receive Holy Communion in any Catholic Church. The same will be true of those in an Anglican Use.

Thirdly, the coralling into a separate corner is not the only thing on offer to Anglicans. If they do not wish to be in an Anglican "ghetto" then they are entirely free to join the wider RC Church. The Pope has in no way limited the reception of Anglicans to this provision. It's for those who have asked for it.


I wonder where this death of ecumenism has come about. I have not heard of any cancellation of all the other ecumenical endeavours which have been going on. ARCIC and all those other bilateral discussions still seem to be in place. Mind you, I also wonder where these wonderful fruits of a well tested and fruitful dialogue that Kung seems to believe in are to be found. We are no nearer to full communion with each other than we ever were.

[Disappointed]

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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Carys

Ship's Celticist
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quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
First, this was not on the Pope's initiative. I wonder how often that will need to be stated. He did not send envoys to sniff out conservative Anglicans in the dead of night to say "come over to the dark side". He was responding to rather persistent appeals from some Anglicans.

Or ex-Anglicans even, as the main thrust comes from a 'continuing body' that was not I believe in communion with Canterbury. AIUI, but I might have got confused.

Carys

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New Yorker
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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Or ex-Anglicans even, as the main thrust comes from a 'continuing body' that was not I believe in communion with Canterbury. AIUI, but I might have got confused.

I thought those Anglicans in the Continuing Movement were in fact Anglicans just not in communion with Canterbury?
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Myrrh
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From the Hans Kung link above, he says:
quote:
As I wrote in 1967, "a resumption of ecclesial community between the Catholic church and the Anglican church" would be possible, when "the Church of England, on the one side, shall be given the guarantee that its current autochthonous and autonomous church order under the Primate of Canterbury will be preserved fully" and when, "on the other side, the Church of England shall recognise the existence of a pastoral primacy of Petrine ministry as the supreme authority for mediation and arbitration between the churches." "In this way," I expressed my hopes then, "out of the Roman imperium might emerge a Catholic commonwealth."

But Pope Benedict is set upon restoring the Roman imperium. He makes no concessions to the Anglican communion. On the contrary, he wants to preserve the medieval, centralistic Roman system for all ages – even if this makes impossible the reconciliation of the Christian churches in fundamental questions.

Kung's suggestion that a 'pastoral primacy' is the answer here errs in that it is still the mindset he calls medieval. It's growth began in the early centuries concommitant with the claims for primacy in old Rome which were as one pastoral and territorial.

Why would the Anglicans want to revert back to this? Can the one be separated from the other? How does the claim for infallibility not fall into the sphere of the pastoral? How can the pastoral not be included in the territorial since Kung is giving the right of supreme authority in arbitration to it?

He's still stuck in the medieval mindset himself.

Orthodox principle is that only Christ is the Head of the Church full stop. The development in the last century or so of the EP publicing himself as the 'spiritual head of the Orthodox' is a corruption, called neo-papism. Unfortunately, the only Orthodox speaking out against this are the Russian who have themselves created a 'patriarch+synod' neo-papism so they together with the other patriarchal Churches who are not speaking out against this can't be an example of the pre-medieval mindset.

Istm, the Anglican community alone of these three in the 'trinity+eucharist+apostolic succession' claim are closest to the earlier pre-primacy organisation of bishops in relationship to each other.

Myrrh

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Triple Tiara

Ship's Papabile
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quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
First, this was not on the Pope's initiative. I wonder how often that will need to be stated. He did not send envoys to sniff out conservative Anglicans in the dead of night to say "come over to the dark side". He was responding to rather persistent appeals from some Anglicans.

Or ex-Anglicans even, as the main thrust comes from a 'continuing body' that was not I believe in communion with Canterbury. AIUI, but I might have got confused.

Carys

That's what I thought. But having been alerted to its existence by this thread, I listened to some of the stuff on this page, which suggests otherwise. The PEVs are very open about the fact that they were part of these discussions, with the full knowledge of the Abp of Canterbury. Their speeches are quite revealing I believe.

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I'm a Roman. You may call me Caligula.

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Myrrh
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This might help.

Statement by FiF in response to news from the Revision Committee
Oct 9, 2009



FiF reacts to Statement from Rome Oct 20, 2009


Statement from Rome


Myrrh

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and thanks for all the fish

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Myrrh
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TT - Anglo-Catholics converting to the RCC will be in a different class of ghetto to the others, IIRC.

They will be 'ordained' in the RCC. No Melkite or Ukrainian Uniate I've ever heard considers the CCC to be binding on them, it's limited to the 'Latin' Church, i.e. the Diocese of the Bishop of Rome which is the RCC. Things may have changed.


Myrrh

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and thanks for all the fish

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Edward Green
Review Editor
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):

Justifying Anglican belief and sacraments is best IMO done from within the Anglican tradition itself otherwise you end up with absurdities like the 'Three Branch' theory which many Anglicans would not accept. I find Edward Green's statement much more Anglican than the 'Three Branch' theory.

The two are not mutually exclusive. Although I see the third branch as wider, and also deficient.

Methodism and Lutheranism are also part.

The Reformation was and is necessary. We may have gone too far in parts, and not far enough in others. In respect to Rome, it is also a reformed Catholic church in some aspects.

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
[The 'Three Branch' theory is not Anglican 'doctrine'. It was a belief held by a number of Anglo-Catholics to self-justify.

I must take issue with your statement here -- I certainly believe it because I think it is true, and the others I have known who believe it appear, IMO, to be doing so in all intellectual honesty, and not to "self-justify."

...

My post was not about 'you' or 'me'.

When the Church of England was formed I believe it was as a comprehensive national church.

It has, traditionally, been held that you can understand the XXXIX Articles from different points of view.

The idea of what I (or anyone else) believes is true being equated with 'Anglican doctrine' scares the willies out of me.

You were not, I believe, amongst the original A-C proponents of the 'Three Branch' theory which I do believe they used to justify their own stance.

I fear we were not communicating on this issue so any further critique from me of your position would, I fear, be to no purpose.

There have been many noncommunications on SOF.

I sincerely wish you well, but I'm out of here.

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Well...

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Low Treason
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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Or ex-Anglicans even, as the main thrust comes from a 'continuing body' that was not I believe in communion with Canterbury. AIUI, but I might have got confused.

I thought those Anglicans in the Continuing Movement were in fact Anglicans just not in communion with Canterbury?
Surely an 'Anglican' is someone who is in communion with Canterbury. It is the Canterbury link which defines the anglicanism.

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He brought me to the banqueting house, and His banner over me was love.

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Forthview
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Quam dilecta - I should not have pretended to express surprise that the choir of the anglican cathedral at Lichfield were offered communion in the (rc) cathedral of Strasbourg,even although this was over 20 years ago.

Not only in France,but anywhere in the world a baptized Christian who is desirous of receiving Communion,can receive this ,exceptionally, in a Catholic church,if :
they cannot reach a pastor of their own religious community and
if they share the Catholic understanding of what the Eucharist is.

It would,for example ,be unusual for an anglican in England,not to be able to reach an anglican church,so there is not much need for this amongst Anglicans in England.

The French bishops (and other clergy) tend to interpret this provision very generously.

The plenary sessions of the French bishops'conference are taking [place in Lourdes this week. In the past,(I don't know about this time) some of the delegates were Reformed christians who were invited to participate in Communion.

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New Yorker
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quote:
Originally posted by Low Treason:
Surely an 'Anglican' is someone who is in communion with Canterbury. It is the Canterbury link which defines the anglicanism.

Perhaps not any more? Surely the members of the Continuing Churches are Anglican? They have the BCP and all the other patrimony of Anglicanism. Maybe, to be clear, one should say that they are "of the Anglican tradition?" Or, maybe they are Anglican and those who remain in the Episcopal Church and CofE, etc are no longer Anglican since they have abaondoned the faith - at least from the Continuers point of view.

As for the side issue of RC's giving communion to non-RCs I don't like it. It implies a unity that is just not there.

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:

As for the side issue of RC's giving communion to non-RCs I don't like it. It implies a unity that is just not there.

You might not like it, mate, but at least in the examples quoted it is in line with RCC official discipline. What that says about unity is for discussion elsewhere.

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Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Shadowhund
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Some of the excuses for giving communion to Protestants, like at weddings and funerals, are quite flimsy and not the sort of exceptional circumstance that Rome's guidelines had in mind. That said, the one occasion that I have personal knowledge of where a priest gave communion and the anointing of the sick to a non-Catholic was more than justified. In the continuing Anglican church of which I was once a member, the priest was literally too much of a lazy, fat ass to visit one of the parishioners in the hospital who was recovering from a serious heart bypass operation. Some of his Catholic friends intervened and got the local Catholic pastor to give him the sacraments.

Incredibly, this fat lazy ass priest was later ordained a Catholic priest...but outside the United States far away from where his shortcomings were well-known!

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"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"

A.N. Wilson

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
When I talk of 'relativist' and 'absolute' I mean that, with the rise of critical biblical scholarship since the midnineteenth century, Anglicans and members of other churches which came out of the Reformation have moved away from feeling they have to believe literally in what were once considered core Christian beliefs. We are talking here of matters such as the Virgin Birth; the Incarnation and the Resurrection.

Plenty of us haven't "moved away". But they tend to be the Protestants least likely to want organisational unity with Rome.

If your introduction to Anglicanism was on the evangelical side of things you are used to Anglo-Catholics being disparaged as liberals. Well, to be honest, Roman Catholics as well...

quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Low Treason:
Surely an 'Anglican' is someone who is in communion with Canterbury. It is the Canterbury link which defines the anglicanism.

Perhaps not any more? Surely the members of the Continuing Churches are Anglican?

Maybe. But these continuing "Anglicans" are part of a local spat within ECUSA which is in some ways a pretty different kind of thing to most of the rest of the worldwide Anglican Communion anyway.

quote:

They have the BCP and all the other patrimony of Anglicanism. Maybe, to be clear, one should say that they are "of the Anglican tradition?"

That might work if we had to find a sentence to describe them that has the word "Anglican" in it. But it also applies to the Methodists, who also "have the BCP and all the other patrimony of Anglicanism". And there are a lot more of them and most of them are probably nearer to the look and feel of worldwide Anglicanism than your "continuing" churches are. Though in the UK (I am not so sure about other countries) Methodists tend to be more liberal than Anglicans.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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the coiled spring
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Is there any truth in that what Paul wrote, concerning if we eat the Bread we are one body. Or has this become a lie thanks to man changing things to suit his own ideas.

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give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.

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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But it also applies to the Methodists, who also "have the BCP and all the other patrimony of Anglicanism".

The Methodists... have... the BCP?? [Confused]

Is this only in the UK? I genuinely didn't know this...

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
When I talk of 'relativist' and 'absolute' I mean that, with the rise of critical biblical scholarship since the midnineteenth century, Anglicans and members of other churches which came out of the Reformation have moved away from feeling they have to believe literally in what were once considered core Christian beliefs. We are talking here of matters such as the Virgin Birth; the Incarnation and the Resurrection.

Plenty of us haven't "moved away". But they tend to be the Protestants least likely to want organisational unity with Rome.
I'm puzzled by this (well, mainly Sir P's comment rather than Ken's response, but that's puzzling too.) In what sense have the doctrines mentioned ever been regarded as 'literally' true except in the way that people talk about it 'literally raining cats and dogs'? They are divine mysteries, surely, for which human language is inadequate. To regard them as 'literally' true in the same sense that my computer is literally on the desk (I nearly said 'standing' on the desk, but that is a metaphor) is to trivialise them.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
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Lone voice: I'm not!

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
But it also applies to the Methodists, who also "have the BCP and all the other patrimony of Anglicanism".

The Methodists... have... the BCP?? [Confused]

Is this only in the UK? I genuinely didn't know this...

Seasick and others please comment, but AIUI the official Communion rite (insofar as the Methodist Church has an official liturgy) used to be the 1662 BCP rite with only very minor alterations. I doubt if the modern service book is very different from any of the officially Anglican variants of the BCP.

But I'm speaking of course of England (and Wales?).

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Unjust Stuart
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quote:
Surely an 'Anglican' is someone who is in communion with Canterbury. It is the Canterbury link which defines the anglicanism.
...substitute "Catholic" for "Anglican" and "Rome" for Canterbury. Discuss for five hundred years.

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Forty years long was I grieved with this generation and said.

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seasick

...over the edge
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Most of Methodist liturgy owes a debt to the BCP of 1662. Methodism comes in two broad categories depending whether it finds its origin in the British Church or the American Church. For the American Church the liturgy comes from John Wesley's abridgement of the Prayer Book and for the British Church, it comes from the Prayer Book itself. From my year in the States, I know that some of the UMC liturgy is still clearly connected to its BCP heritage, with a great deal of influence from the liturgical movement, now, of course. In Great Britain, the usual communion liturgy until 1975 was that of the 1936 Book of Offices which was very close indeed to the 1662 service. The 1936 service was retained in the 75 book as an alternative, but, AIUI, very little used. The main rite then was in the modern western structure. Since then we have had a further book in which the 1936 service is no longer included. That book would indeed look largely familiar to the modern Anglican tradition of liturgy. There are still many texts that come to us from the Prayer Book though (notably collects). In UK Methodism we never de-authorise things so those older books are still just as much authorised liturgy as they ever were, although they are obviously not used as much these days. Hinde St Methodist Church in London still maintain a weekly Eucharist according to the 1936 service; I'm not sure if anyone else still uses it.

[The Methodist Church here is of Great Britain so the authorised liturgy is the same in England, Wales and Scotland. The Methodist Church in Ireland is autonomous, though closely related.]

[ 02. November 2009, 16:22: Message edited by: seasick ]

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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Triple Tiara:
Kung's article is a poisonous piece of rhetoric riddled with errors from start to finish. Which is a scandal for someone who claims to be an academic. It's just one more piece of weaponry he seems to believe he has against the Pope - but it's a load of bunkum.

Hans Kung is just upset because the grand vision of the Roman Congregational Church that he was pushing (back in the salad days of the late 1970s) now looks like it will never happen. Cry me a river, Haensel... [Waterworks]

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--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Low Treason:
Surely an 'Anglican' is someone who is in communion with Canterbury. It is the Canterbury link which defines the anglicanism.

Once everything else is made optional, I suppose that's all that's left.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Alt Wally

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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Once everything else is made optional, I suppose that's all that's left.

No, I would say the most "catholic" element of the ECUSA now is the idea that the bishop controls the property and buildings.

[ 02. November 2009, 16:38: Message edited by: Alt Wally ]

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Chesterbelloc

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
In what sense have the doctrines mentioned ever been regarded as 'literally' true [...]? They are divine mysteries, surely, for which human language is inadequate.

Um, in the sense that Christ was literally born of an actual never-had-sexual-intercourse virgin, and that He bodily rose from the grave in which he was laid? What's not "literal" about that? They've pretty much always and to date been the usual understanding of these doctrines. The mystery is how (and how wonderfully) they happened and what an utter change they make to everything.
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
To regard them as 'literally' true in the same sense that my computer is literally on the desk (I nearly said 'standing' on the desk, but that is a metaphor) is to trivialise them.

On the contrary. To make of them mythic metaphors is to trivialise them - by denying their plain, stark and astonishing truth.

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

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the coiled spring
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# 2872

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quote:
Originally posted by Low Treason:
Surely an 'Anglican' is someone who is in communion with Canterbury. It is the Canterbury link which defines the anglicanism.

That is where the problem is, we should be in communion with Christ not a man-made institution like Canterbury/Rome/ or any of the other grouping which takes away focus from God.

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give back to God what He gives so it is used for His glory not ours.

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Forthview
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Should Anglicans who might want to come into full communion with the Holy See choose to use the proposed 'anglican use' they would not be the only ones within the Latin rite church to do so.

Within the ecclesiastical province of Milan a good number of parishes use the Ambrosian rite instead of the Roman rite.They are not considered to be 'set in aspic'

Incidentally in certain parts of the south of Italy there are also some parishes which use the Greek Catholic rite instead of the Roman rite.These are not Eastern Europeans but the descendants of Albanians who came to Italy almost 1000 years ago and who have continued to use the Greek rites(including some married priests).

I also wonder by what standards one can classify the church in Italy as dead.

For many Italians a 'practicing'Catholic is one who goes to Mass at Christmas and Easter.Last Christmas it was announced that 72% of the population had assisted at Mass. If that is the benchmark then the church is not dead.

If one wants to judge it by the fervour or practice of those who go to church,then there are many parishes which have thriving communities.To take only one parish which I know quite well - parrocchia di S.Agostino,Ventimiglia there are 3 Masses each day which attract at least 150 people,not counting those who visit the church at other times of the day.There is a good choir and if you look at the website for the diocese of Ventimiglia-San Remo you'll find a comprehensive list of activities which attract a good number of people.
Of course there are many more who could be involved,but the Church is certainly not dead.
I have nothing against the Tridentine rite -in fact I love it - but I don't think that wholesale re-adoption of the Tridentine rite would greatly increase the numbers of those regularly attending church and seriously trying to live out the christian life.

Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
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Heck, apart from all the issues under discussion here, wherever there are two or three gathered in Jesus' name, the church is not "dead"...

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

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Shadowhund
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# 9175

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quote:
Originally posted by Low Treason:
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
Or ex-Anglicans even, as the main thrust comes from a 'continuing body' that was not I believe in communion with Canterbury. AIUI, but I might have got confused.

I thought those Anglicans in the Continuing Movement were in fact Anglicans just not in communion with Canterbury?
Surely an 'Anglican' is someone who is in communion with Canterbury. It is the Canterbury link which defines the anglicanism.
Of course, Rome is not bound by that definition nor should she be bound. That said, Rome should be VERY CAREFUL about who is permitted to be ordained in these new Ordinariates, especially from continuing Anglican backgrounds. Rome and the local ordinaries have not always been so careful in the past.

[ 02. November 2009, 21:34: Message edited by: Shadowhund ]

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"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"

A.N. Wilson

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Oremus
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Yes Rome should be very careful - some of these A/Cs will make us look like protestants -LOL.
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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by Oremus:
Yes Rome should be very careful - some of these A/Cs will make us look like protestants -LOL.

I think what Shadowhund is trying to say is that some of the continuing Anglican clergy shouldn't be ordained to the RC priesthood under any circumstance.

Sadly, he is correct; there are some phenomenally bad apples in that barrel, for sure.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
When I talk of 'relativist' and 'absolute' I mean that, with the rise of critical biblical scholarship since the midnineteenth century, Anglicans and members of other churches which came out of the Reformation have moved away from feeling they have to believe literally in what were once considered core Christian beliefs. We are talking here of matters such as the Virgin Birth; the Incarnation and the Resurrection.

Plenty of us haven't "moved away". But they tend to be the Protestants least likely to want organisational unity with Rome.

If your introduction to Anglicanism was on the evangelical side of things you are used to Anglo-Catholics being disparaged as liberals. Well, to be honest, Roman Catholics as well...

...

One of the reasons I have never subscribed to the 'Three Branch' theory is because I find it makes nonsense of Anglicanism as a comprehensive church which can include both the High and Low Church perspectives.

The phrase 'Anglo-Catholic' seems to cover a wide range of stances. It was interesting ChastMastr had to obtain a definition of 'liberal Anglo-Catholic' from Edward Green and then made a statement about 'doctrine' he believed because of 'the sort of Anglo-Catholic I am'. At this point any querying of the 'doctrine' seemed to imply a personal attack.

To become involved with his microcritique of my post - which I found to contain some rather strange suggestions - seemed futile.

I understand both Angloid's questioning of 'literal truth' and Chesterbelloc's rebuttal of him.

We will continue to differ amongst ourselves.

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Well...

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Augustine the Aleut
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Shadowhund writes:
quote:
Rome and the local ordinaries have not always been so careful in the past.
Indeed, they haven't always been so careful in their own dioceses! I fear that a few of my Latin friends should never have gotten porrected, and I can think of one Byzantine Catholic eparchate here which could use a good housecleaning among its clergy. However, the point is fair: continuing Anglican theological training has been iffy and there are ordinands who have had little more than supervised reading. I have met an odd duck or two.

Currently the local RCs, taking in clergy from other churches, run them through comprehensive interviews (involving their wives, when they be married), checking out their seminary courseload, the time elapsed, etc, and then setting them on a 1-3 year remedial training schedule. The ones with whom I have spoke had to suck up much more philosophy than they knew existed, as well as the expected moral theology & canon law. They tended to be able to out-argue their liturgical profs, but that may have been the individuals involved. I expect that the new absorbees will go through a similar procedure: as the Canadian numbers coming in from ACCC are not likely to be more than a few dozen (some will prefer to continue on, I would imagine), this should be a manageable procedure.

These days, the RCs run their ordinands through a raft of psychological tests to keep out Undesireables of varying types. I would imagine that somehow interviews with the new applicants will be searching- I know of two who will almost certainly not make it, but I have been proven wrong in the past.

My anglophone Latin contacts are a bit bemused by this -- those of Irish provenance not really enthusiastic--, but the francophones seem quite pleased. One Latin administrative cleric I know is desperately hoping that he can get a few young priests that he can borrow for parishes, their shortage being serious and getting worse. Our local (Ottawa) separating parishes are run by folk celebrating the joys of the XXXIX and who identify heresy, ungodliness, sodomy, and chasubles as being closely connected, so I see no interest from their side (with one possible exception) and had to tell my contact so.

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Shadowhund
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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Oremus:
Yes Rome should be very careful - some of these A/Cs will make us look like protestants -LOL.

I think what Shadowhund is trying to say is that some of the continuing Anglican clergy shouldn't be ordained to the RC priesthood under any circumstance.

Sadly, he is correct; there are some phenomenally bad apples in that barrel, for sure.

Yes, that is exactly what I meant. Some of the TAC clergy were thinking that they were going to be admitted to full communion (and ordained) as they were. I was relieved to see that a jerry-rigged ordinariate structure was being created that would prevent that.

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"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"

A.N. Wilson

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Knopwood
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# 11596

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quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
Our local (Ottawa) separating parishes are run by folk celebrating the joys of the XXXIX and who identify heresy, ungodliness, sodomy, and chasubles as being closely connected, so I see no interest from their side (with one possible exception) and had to tell my contact so.

OTOH, I'll miss being able to visit the Cathedral of the Annunciation as a communicant if TAC goes over.
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ChastMastr
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quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
OTOH, I'll miss being able to visit the Cathedral of the Annunciation as a communicant if TAC goes over.

Why, would the cathedral itself be transferred to the RCC?

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My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
John Holding

Coffee and Cognac
# 158

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The Cathedral of the Annunciation in question is part of the Anglican Catholic CHurch (I think that's the right name), the group that left the Anglican Church of Canada over the ordination of women. It is incidently a defender of the Canadian BCP of 1959/62 as opposed to the evil modern language rits used by the ACC. They are of course not in communion with Canterbury, and never have been, despite the fact that their sceond bishop was a member of the Community of the Resurrection from Mirfield.

When its people left, they of course took no buildings with them...their first Bishop actually left on the eve of Palm Sunday, leaving the local AC shrine in the hands of a former Lutheran minister (a good man, but at that point he'd only been an anglican for a few months) and a 16 year old MC for the whole of the HOly Week and Easter seasons.

I was unaware that the group in question was part of the TAC. I should have thought, otherwise, that they were highly unlikely to take advantage of the Pope's invitation.

John

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otyetsfoma
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# 12898

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You write as if Father Carmino deliberately abandonned his parish: the fact is that despite previous assurances of a right to disagree he was ousted by a kangaroo court of the diocesan Archdeacon Len Baird and Archbishop Bill Davis, who asked how much time he needed to vacate his rectory; and were dismayed to find he owned his own house. He did not abandon:he was pushed.
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otyetsfoma
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Forgive the double posting. You're right about their unwillingness to go Romeward: Carmino de Catanzaro was close to Orthodoxy. He did scholarly translation work for St Vladimir Press, and the OCA allowed him the use of their building when they had nowhere else to go.
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Alt Wally

Cardinal Ximinez
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Read this today. Stereotypes, misinformation. Somebody is feeling threatened.
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Thurible
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"[the RCC] does not permit gay clergy (even though until recently pedophilia was secretly tolerated?)"

Wow.

Thurible

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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

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chiltern_hundred
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# 13659

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The Bishop of Arizona (for it is he) quoth:

quote:
Is the idea "If you hate gay people and women, then come join us" one Benedict really wants to support?
Oh, FFS.

If I were in his diocese, I'd be even keener on doing what I'm thinking of doing anyway.

What Alt Wally said, apart from that.

quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
Read this today. Stereotypes, misinformation. Somebody is feeling threatened.


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Shadowhund
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Eh. It's a way of boosting morale by appealing to a supposed outside threat. Perhaps I could return the favor by saying, with some justice, that the Episcopal Bishop of Arizona's advertising pitch is: "if your God is your anus or vagina, then The Episcopal Church is just the place for you!"

'Tis sad, though, what has happened to that diocese over the years. Joseph Harte was an Anglo-Catholic and a member of the Board of the old Evangelical and Catholic Mission. Icabod.

--------------------
"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"

A.N. Wilson

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aumbry
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# 436

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The Bishop of Arizona's punctuation is so whimsical it is difficult to know precisely what he means.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38

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Shadowhund wrote
quote:
"if your God is your anus or vagina, then The Episcopal Church is just the place for you!"
Shadowhund - do you actually have some backup for this assertion, or is it just a free-floating insult? Either way, I hardly see how it contributes to the discussion.

Perhaps rather more pertinently, I fail to see how the bishop's assertions match the Episcopal church's own membership statistics, which show that Arizona is losing communicant members at the rate of 2.6% per annum (stats. here). If Arizona has that many Catholics joining them, then where on earth has everyone else been leaving for? Orthodoxy? Protestant denoms.?

[ 05. November 2009, 16:13: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Shadowhund
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# 9175

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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
[QB] Shadowhund wrote [QUOTE] "if your God is your anus or vagina, then The Episcopal Church is just the place for you!"

Shadowhund - do you actually have some backup for this assertion, or is it just a free-floating insult? Either way, I hardly see how it contributes to the discussion.

My rhetoric is no more overblown than the Episcopal Bishop of Arizona, which was the point. Too bad I didn't add, a la Luther, "sodomite captivity of the Episcopalians." If you don't like that sort of rhetoric from your bishops, write them and complain. Otherwise, tough noogies.

--------------------
"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"

A.N. Wilson

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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The bishop isn't posting on this thread. So however silly and insulting his words are, there's no call for your posts to emulate his maunderings.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38

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Hmmm. Let's take a look at that offending paragraph.
quote:
But is the building up of a church on the basis of hatred consistent with Jesus' message?
Of course not. Who said it was?

quote:
Is the idea "If you hate gay people and women, then come join us" one Benedict really wants to support?
I seriously doubt it. But where did this come from, exactly? There's a pattern emerging here...

quote:
Or is this gesture likely to become, as I suspect, a tremendous embarrassment to present and future generations of Roman Catholics?
So the guy is a fully paid-up whig on some travelator to la-la land, where all is beautiful all the time, in the future of course.

Shadowhund, the guy is a culture-warrior. He demonstrates many of the traits in that very blog post, e.g. the demonization of others, the construction of an alternative reality which can be populated by one's enemies, who one hates so very much, the authoritarian temperament, the uncritical swallowing of the myth of progress*, the laundry-list of approved causes... Thank you Lord that I am not like them.

And guess what? Here you come with the same stuff except from the other corner. Has it occurred to you that the world might by now have tired of all this puritanical silliness? For puritanical it assuredly all is - purifying the church is what it is all about.

Perhaps if B16's words and actions were analysed more realistically, rather than being forced onto the Procrustean bed of American socio-political norms, then we might get somewhere. At least, that was my hope when this thread started up.

(* - in his case. For conservatives, replace with the myth of the golden age.)

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Shadowhund
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# 9175

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RuthW, that is not your call.

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"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"

A.N. Wilson

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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You tried to justify your insulting words here by saying you were simply matching those of someone who is not posting here, so your justification fails. I'm not making a judgement call; I'm taking apart your reasoning.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged



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