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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Pope announces plans for Anglicans to convert in groups
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Divine Outlaw Dwarf:
Pastoral provision has been made already for Anglican Use amongst those attached to it. I don't see why anything more robust is needed.
I is sometimes alleged that some U.S. Bishops have resisted the establishement of Anglican Use parishes in their dioceses. The new provision would free potential Anglican Use communitites from that kind of resistance. Also, as far as I know the present Pastoral Provision only applies to the U.S. I think the new provision would apply worldwide.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Shadowhund
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# 9175
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Posted
I suppose that a bishop could forbid an Anglican ordinary from operating in his diocese like he can the prelate of Opus Dei. Few forbid the latter these days.
Cardinal Mahony declined to permit St. Mary of the Angels parish in Hollywood, CA, to join the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. If the parish now wants to join the Catholic Church, it will be interesting to see whether he will try to block the parish again.
[ 20. October 2009, 18:09: Message edited by: Shadowhund ]
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"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"
A.N. Wilson
Posts: 3788 | From: Your Disquieted Conscience | Registered: Mar 2005
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowhund:
I suppose that a bishop could forbid an Anglican ordinary from operating in his diocese like he can the prelate of Opus Dei. Few forbid the latter these days.
Cardinal Mahony declined to permit St. Mary of the Angels parish in Hollywood, CA, to join the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. If the parish now wants to join the Catholic Church, it will be interesting to see whether he will try to block the parish again.
That maneuver always struck me as a rather extreme way to ensure that there would be no kneeling in his diocese.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
We are an FiF parish, signed up to all 3 Resolutions (A, B and C). The PCC earlier this year decided to continue with the Resolutions, despite the fact that at least half of us on the said PCC are either OK with the OOW or else aren't bothered either way! The thinking behind this was a desire not to do anything hasty before we know the outcome of the moves currently afoot in Synod.
Should satisfactory provision be made for alternative episcopal oversight (which I hope will be the case), I can't see anyone leaving us. OTOH, if it isn't, then I envisage perhaps half-a-dozen (some of them 'movers and shakers') crossing the Tiber. What I can't see is a general fleeing to Rome for shelter and an abandonment of our poor little parish. Mind you, of course I can't know what people may think, do or say - but I hope and pray that no-one will leave unless they feel it's the only thing they can do.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cor ad cor loquitur:
A couple of interesting bits from Andrew Brown's piece: quote:
this establishes a tradition of married Roman Catholic clergy in the west...
If the former Anglicans can train up successors who will also be able to have wives, the Roman Catholic church may have found a way to escape the prospect of a largely gay priesthood to which the doctrine of compulsory celibacy appeared to condemn them. It is ironic that Anglican efforts to deal honestly with the problem of sexuality should have provided the Catholics with the excuse they needed to strike this decisive blow.
and Damian Thompson adds that quote:
...there is even the possibility that married Anglican laymen could be accepted for ordination on a case-by-case basis – a remarkable concession.
though where he gets this last conclusion I don't know; he has a long history of announcing substance-free "facts" and "inside information".
There were married priests in the Latin Rite before now. Only a handful, but they do exist. One is a former United Church of Canada Minister (that's a very long swim indeed).
Whatever arguments may be put forth for clerical celibacy, consistency is not one of them.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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fisher
Shipmate
# 9080
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Posted
quote:
From Andrew Brown's piece: quote:
The real long term significance of this announcement is the talk about seminaries ...If the former Anglicans can train up successors who will also be able to have wives...
Do people who understand these things know if there's any basis for his 'if', beyond fanciful speculation?
[ 20. October 2009, 19:30: Message edited by: fisher ]
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"Down, down, presumptuous human reason!" But somehow they found out I was not a real bishop at all G. K. Chesterton
Posts: 1327 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2005
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pete173
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# 4622
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Posted
I think that the straightforward implication of this announcement is that the women bishops legislation will change radically. Supporters will be far less inclined to make the concessions that the conservative catholics have been asking for. They'll just say take Benny's Tiber jet.
It won't have escaped notice that 22nd Feb is 10 days after General Synod. If Synod decides to overturn the revision committee proposals to provide for those opposed, and to make it back into a code of practice or simple measure, there's a clear exit door.
And then we'll have a very different CofE.
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Shadowhund:
I suppose that a bishop could forbid an Anglican ordinary from operating in his diocese like he can the prelate of Opus Dei. Few forbid the latter these days.
I guess it depends on what the new provision looks like. I think one of the reasons for this new provision is an awareness of difficulties under the present Pastoral Provision and I think they would want to avoid a situation where the regular Latin Rite bishop can interfere with an Anglican Use ordinary tending to a new Anglican Use community. Someone elsewhere brough up comparisons to the Archdiocese for the Military Services. Maybe the new provision will be similar to it works.
I'm sympathetic to what Divine Outlaw Dwarf, Triple Tiara, FCB and Angloid have said, particularly about certain attitudes among certain Anglo-Catholics that might come over. Occasionally I'll read something that makes me think "What, we're not good enough for them?". But I'm cautiously optimistic that people will mellow out.
quote:
Cardinal Mahony declined to permit St. Mary of the Angels parish in Hollywood, CA, to join the Archdiocese of Los Angeles. If the parish now wants to join the Catholic Church, it will be interesting to see whether he will try to block the parish again.
That parish is currently a member of the TAC (Traditional Anglican Communion) which has been in talks with the Vatican about union. It will be really interesting to see what happens with them. My guess is that if the new provision enables the TAC to unite as a body with Rome they might wait to move along with the TAC but I really don't know. It's not a secret that they wanted to be received into the Catholic Church so I think that's a case where many or most parishioners would be sympathetic to union.
Re: kneeling
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
That maneuver always struck me as a rather extreme way to ensure that there would be no kneeling in his diocese.
There has always been keenling in the Archdiocese. Cardinal Manoney declined reception of St. Marys back in the 1980’s. Throughout the 80’s and 90’s and early 2000’s people knelt not just for the Eucharistic Prayer but also after the Agnus Dei like people are used to doing everywhere else in the U.S. It was only in the past several years that the Cardinal announced that people should remain standing after throughout Communion. In my parish it was only the current pastor who decided to implement this and people still kneel once they’ve received communion. At other parishes people sit or kneel once the Communion procession begins (frustrating my current pastor when we receive a lot of visitors at Mass). In the Archdiocese everyone continues to kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer. There may be exceptions but those are not typical parishes or situations (like outdoor Masses celebrated on pavement, etc.).
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
And then we'll have a very different CofE.
I can see that we might have a very different Diocese of London, or even Willesden Episcopal Area. Bearing in mind the figures quoted by Ricardus, showing the tiny number of F in F parishes in some dioceses, how much difference will it make to the C of E as a whole?
Even allowing for some members of non-FiF parishes swimming the Tiber (and there will be some), they are, almost by definition, among the minority of active laity. Good, faithful people no doubt, who we'd hate to lose: but I can't see a significant proportion of those in the pews leaving. (Bishop's Finger suggests as much, even though his parish is ABC).
And lest my reaction or that of others to those leaving is seen as 'good riddance', nothing could be further from my thoughts. After all, they won't be leaving the Church, or abandoning the Gospel. They will hopefully find a more fruitful soil for their future spiritual growth, and who would begrudge anybody that?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
They'll just say take Benny's Tiber jet.
Jet? I thought they had to swim for it?
What about +Ebbsfleet on a jet ski?
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
And then we'll have a very different CofE.
I can see that we might have a very different Diocese of London, or even Willesden Episcopal Area. Bearing in mind the figures quoted by Ricardus, showing the tiny number of F in F parishes in some dioceses, how much difference will it make to the C of E as a whole?
I don't think many ordinary laity will go.
But quite a few of the Catholic Group / FiF friends in General Synod have to go, or have to explain why they aren't going. How many of them will leave / step down at Synod re-election time in summer 2010? And if they carry on, why?
If the hardline Catholic group falls from say 60 to say 20 what impact will that have on the polity of the CofE on other issues? Even if the CofE in the pews only shifts by a percent or two.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Freejack: I take your point. I'm afraid General Synod and ecclesiastical politics generally pass me by, and its significance had never occurred to me. I suspect the same is true of 99% of ordinary punters.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
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Posted
Well I've never been on a Synod, but I guessed that is what +Pete (who has been on many synods) was hinting at.
As far as I can tell the Catholic synod group are quite well organised and have had a reasonable number of key committee posts etc. in the past and are good at forming 34% blocking minorities etc. But they need to have a certain number of people and a certain raison d'etre to make it credible.
And if you look at the residual arithmetic, the open/charo evos look stronger than the liberal anglo-caths from 2015 onwards. (Another reason why some pro-women bishop anglo-catholics are worried about the consequences of their actions.) Not that any group would be 51%, but certainly you would have a '40% evo vote'. Again, even if not that much changes in the parishes on the ground.
Of course FiF leaders could stay in the CofE and make the best of it, at least for another five years. But the current Papal window of opportunity may not stay open for that long.
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
What worries me is the chance that, if no satisfactory alternative episcopal oversight is provided, we'll lose some valuable and excellent priests. Frankly, the church can ill afford that.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
How is it going to work out when English Catholic priests are told they can't marry, while the pseudo-Anglicans can?
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Ye Olde Motherboarde
Ship's Mother and Singing Quilter
# 54
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Posted
I almost fell off my chair when I read this article....
CNN's account of the event
I think if will all "shake out" because God made this happen. HE doesn't do anything without a reason. Sometimes we don't see that reason, but believe me, if this isn't a miracle, I don't know what is.
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In Memory of Miss Molly, TimC, Gambit, KenWritez, koheleth, Leetle Masha, JLG, Genevieve, Erin, RuthW2, deuce2, Sidi and TonyCoxon, unbeliever, Morlader, Ken :tear: 20 years but who’s counting?..................
Posts: 4292 | From: Looking for more trouble to get into | Registered: May 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
What's a miracle about the pope grasping at a few more butts in his pews?
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
Thanks for setting Father Weber straight, Pancho, regarding that kneeling thing.
My impression from reading the TEC media and blogs is that the Pope's announcement is not considered that big a deal in the US. There are, apparently, only seven "Anglican use" parishes in the entire country. I hardly think that removing objections from local Catholic bishops will lead to the establishment of that many more. Anglo-Catholicism, American-style, is not Anglo-Papalist.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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Cardinal Pole Vault
Papal Bull
# 4193
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
What's a miracle about the pope grasping at a few more butts in his pews?
Zach
Eww! No one wants the pope grasping at their butt!
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"Make tea, not war"
Posts: 986 | From: Insula Tiberina | Registered: Mar 2003
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Resurgam
Shipmate
# 14891
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Posted
quote:
But under the pastoral provision, as I understand it, one cannot marry again once ordained -- just as a married candidate for the permanent diaconate vows that he will not remarry if his wife dies. Presumably an unmarried Anglican priest who becomes a Catholic priest under this new provision will thereby commit himself to lifelong celibacy.
[/QB]
On the bright side, things should be looking up for the often-neglected clergy wives whose husbands move over. If he doesn't look to her care and feeding, he'll be condemned to a celibate widowerhood.
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LA Dave:
Anglo-Catholicism, American-style, is not Anglo-Papalist.
There also seem to be some interesting doctrinal idiosyncracies in some A-C places; things that Rome would not tolerate so much.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
How is it going to work out when English Catholic priests are told they can't marry, while the ... Anglicans can?
It will probably work a lot like it does with the Eastern Catholic churches who maintain a married priesthood alongside the celibate - Respect the traditions of local churches, and don't switch particular churches to circumvent the disciplines of your own.
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Max_Power
Shipmate
# 13547
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Posted
What I found the most intriguing piece of the puzzle was/is the joint declaration signed by the Archbishops of Winchester and Canterbury. I wonder if +RW is perhaps, with a sigh and a shrug, letting the ACs go, or is he perhaps extending to them a 'double-dog-dare'? In other words, is he calling their collective bluff? Doing so would effectively allow him to get on with the programme and tell everyone who remains to just suck it up.
Kent
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
How is it going to work out when English Catholic priests are told they can't marry, while the ... Anglicans can?
It will probably work a lot like it does with the Eastern Catholic churches who maintain a married priesthood alongside the celibate - Respect the traditions of local churches, and don't switch particular churches to circumvent the disciplines of your own.
In a generation, the line between these pseudo-Anglicans and the Catholics will be blurrier than hell. What then?
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Max_Power:
What I found the most intriguing piece of the puzzle was/is the joint declaration signed by the Archbishops of Winchester and Canterbury. I wonder if +RW is perhaps, with a sigh and a shrug, letting the ACs go, or is he perhaps extending to them a 'double-dog-dare'? In other words, is he calling their collective bluff? Doing so would effectively allow him to get on with the programme and tell everyone who remains to just suck it up.
Kent
I think Archbishop of Canterbury simply realized that there was really nothing he could do about it.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
What then?
Build a mylar balloon and claim a bishop of small stature has been accidentally carried away in it to divert attention. Barring that...
A generation ago, who would have foreseen allowance of the Anglican Use or the re-birth of the TLM, etc. A generation ahead is hard to predict. Fear is not a reason not to do the right thing.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
What then?
Build a mylar balloon and claim a bishop of small stature has been accidentally carried away in it to divert attention. Barring that...
A generation ago, who would have foreseen allowance of the Anglican Use or the re-birth of the TLM, etc. A generation ahead is hard to predict. Fear is not a reason not to do the right thing.
I really don't agree that setting up a Pretender Anglican Church is the "right" thing.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
What irony is that, Alt?
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
What irony is that, Alt?
Zach
I'm not sure if this is the irony that Alt intended, but for many RCs Anglicanism is a Pretend Catholic church.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
I'm not sure if this is the irony that Alt intended, but for many RCs Anglicanism is a Pretend Catholic church.
I figured. How DARE we pretend to be followers of Christ?! Isn't it a smack in the face to the Church of Rome that we think our orders and sacraments are valid?
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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moveable_type
Shipmate
# 9673
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Max_Power:
What I found the most intriguing piece of the puzzle was/is the joint declaration signed by the Archbishops of Winchester and Canterbury. I wonder if +RW is perhaps, with a sigh and a shrug, letting the ACs go, or is he perhaps extending to them a 'double-dog-dare'? In other words, is he calling their collective bluff? Doing so would effectively allow him to get on with the programme and tell everyone who remains to just suck it up.
Kent
I think Archbishop of Canterbury simply realized that there was really nothing he could do about it.
Zach
For the ABoC, it undermines a difficult faction, as pointed out upthread. A more interesting question is why anybody thinks he can negotiate for Anglicans outside England - perhaps, like the Israelis, Rome just wanted somebody to negotiate with.
Posts: 1062 | From: Toronto | Registered: Jul 2005
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by moveable_type:
For the ABoC, it undermines a difficult faction, as pointed out upthread. A more interesting question is why anybody thinks he can negotiate for Anglicans outside England - perhaps, like the Israelis, Rome just wanted somebody to negotiate with. [/QB]
I wouldn't call what the Bishop of Rome is doing negotiation. More like kicking your enemies while they're down.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
I'm not sure if this is the irony that Alt intended, but for many RCs Anglicanism is a Pretend Catholic church.
I figured. How DARE we pretend to be followers of Christ?! Isn't it a smack in the face to the Church of Rome that we think our orders and sacraments are valid?
Zach
Obviously, I don't agree with the RCC on that point. But at the same time, the anti-Catholic rhetoric on blogs like Thinking Anglicans is over the top. A lot of the stories on this announcement are painting it as some kind of attempt at mass sheep-stealing; if this is all it takes to convince Anglo-Catholics to leave their churches, then they were already gone.
I think it has as much to do with the TAC pestering Rome for a provision as anything else.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
The irony is it seems history has come somewhat full circle.
I'm not sure what makes one a "real" Anglican versus a pretend Anglican (I'm not an Anglican, but I play one on TV, etc.) I have a hard time believing being a real Anglican means being under the oversight of a specific bishop or a member of a specific church. Many (I would assume "real" Anglicans), are neither under the direct administration of the Archbishop of Canterbury or members of the Church of England (it certainly isn't about the 39 articles or some style of churchmanship). It would seem to me what is distinctive about them, and "really" Anglican is fidelity to the Prayer Book. In that sense I don't see why one can't be a "real" Anglican in direct communion with Rome.
Perhaps there were some Cardinals who felt this was a good time to give some people at Lambeth a kick in the balls, but I doubt it. I think they probably did this reluctantly, and perhaps among many unwillingly.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Full circle in what way, Alt? The only thing the Anglicans have done is believe in their own validity.
And who is it really that is twisting Rome's arm here?
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Would the exodus of traditionalist Catholics from the CofE make the CofE more liberal or more conservative?
On one hand, at least in the short-term, this would further entrench the evangelical ascendancy in the CofE. On the other hand, the CofE might feel more emboldened to support liberal changes in its social policy now that conservative Anglo-catholics have left.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
There is really no way to tell right now, AB. The Roman Church itself hasn't decided how this will go down yet. Hopefully the pope's sense of integrity will kick in, and the demands that the pseudo-Anglicans actually be Catholic all the way will deter most of them from leaving.
Zach
[ 21. October 2009, 02:22: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
There is really no way to tell right now, AB. The Roman Church itself hasn't decided how this will go down yet. Hopefully the pope's sense of integrity will kick in, and the demands that the pseudo-Anglicans actually be Catholic all the way will deter most of them from leaving.
Zach
I very much doubt that Anglican converts are going to get any breaks on doctrinal assent. Discipline, sure--reception of married priests and retention of some Anglican features of worship are already part of the plan. But anybody who joins the RCC in whatever rite has to recognize the authority of the Magisterium.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Keep in mind, these people have been perfectly free to convert this whole time. Since they haven't done so, it seems to me that they want to be Catholic without really having to convert. They just finally have a pope that is willing to let them have their cake and eat it too.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
I may have to eat my words when the Apostolic Constitution actually appears, but I would be shocked if it allowed married men who are not already Anglican clergy to be ordained.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
In a way, I agree. If being Roman Catholic is what's important, then it should be worth sitting through warbly guitar masses. And it seems uncharacteristic of Rome not to counsel the converts to offer it up to the Blessed Mother for the souls in Purgatory.
Which is part of what makes me suspect that this is part of cutting a deal with the TAC.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
If the Catholic Church accepts a variation of the 1662 BCP as a legitimate rite, I can hear Cramner's body roll over in the grave. He after all, died while declaring that the Pope was not a good person*.
*The biggest understatement of the century.
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
If the Catholic Church accepts a variation of the 1662 BCP as a legitimate rite, I can hear Cramner's body roll over in the grave. He after all, died while declaring that the Pope was not a good person*.
*The biggest understatement of the century.
Cranmer actually died declaring "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit... I see the heavens open and Jesus standing at the right hand of God."
Maybe that's one of those ironies Alt was talking about. The Church of Rome officially sanctioning a liturgy written by a man it burned at the stake!
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Grammatica
Shipmate
# 13248
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Posted
Like Plunkitt of Tammany Hall, Pope Benedict can say: "I seen my opportunities and I took 'em."
Posts: 1058 | From: where the lemon trees blosson | Registered: Dec 2007
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
If the Catholic Church accepts a variation of the 1662 BCP as a legitimate rite, I can hear Cramner's body roll over in the grave. He after all, died while declaring that the Pope was not a good person*.
*The biggest understatement of the century.
Indications are that the rite will be the Book of Divine Worship. The Mass is basically the 1979 BCP rite (in traditional and contemporary-language flavors), with the BCP canon removed and the Gregorian canon substituted. I've seen some wild fantasizing online about the Knott Missal being authorized and what-not, but I'll believe that when I see it.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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daviddrinkell
Shipmate
# 8854
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
If the Catholic Church accepts a variation of the 1662 BCP as a legitimate rite, I can hear Cramner's body roll over in the grave. He after all, died while declaring that the Pope was not a good person*.
*The biggest understatement of the century.
Cranmer actually died declaring "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit... I see the heavens open and Jesus standing at the right hand of God."
Maybe that's one of those ironies Alt was talking about. The Church of Rome officially sanctioning a liturgy written by a man it burned at the stake!
Zach
Most liturgists like to quote Hippolytus as one of their earliest sources - but don't state whether his liturgy was drawn up before or after he was excommunicated for heresy. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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David
Posts: 1983 | From: St. John's, Newfoundland | Registered: Dec 2004
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caercybi06
Shipmate
# 15105
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Posted
There seems to be a touch of hypocrsy here .On 1 hand ex Anglicans can retain their married clergy but there are RCs who are being disiciplined for thinking out loud about a married clergy or worse female priests .
And I doubt that too many of the right wing of the Anglican family will want to bend the knee to the Pope . As to retaining buildings
here in Canada the diocese thus the Bishop owns all buildings not the congregation . There have been cases where people were told you can keep your buildings , but when the split happens they are out of luck.
So overall I think this whole idea is a bad one . If you are going to join the RCC then take instruction in said church. Otherwise forget it. ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbitt JRR Tolkien
Posts: 59 | From: Victoria BC Canada | Registered: Sep 2009
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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163
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Posted
There is no doubt that Pope Benedict is committed to ecumenism. That ecumenism has always been the traditional Roman Catholic form of ecumenism: return to Rome and accept the Magisterium in full.
If people ever doubted that or thought their personal opinion on reunion counted with the Vatican they were misleading themselves.
Father Webber is quite correct, much of the recent arrangement, which will be presented in full detail later, was a result of the representations made to Rome by the TAC.
There was talk at one stage of the TAC being accepted as a personal prelature. Whether this was really seriously considered by the Vatican I have no idea. The current Primate of the TAC being a twice divorced exCatholic priest would certainly have put paid to his chance of becoming a priest, let alone a bishop.
There appear to be both Catholics and Anglicans disappointed with what has happened. Unfortunately for them, they were way outside what was happening. Venting steam will do no good: the state of play has changed.
The conversations with the TAC (initiated by the TAC); the clear statements made by the Vatican representatives at Lambeth; the current difficulties in the Anglican Communion and the likelihood of women bishops in the Church of England soon obviously made the Pope think he needed to act now.
The Pope has acted perfectly correctly according to his lights and Roman Catholic teaching.
I think we remaining Anglicans have to look to ourselves and work from there. Nothing else will do much good.
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Well...
Posts: 5108 | From: The Deep North, Oz | Registered: Dec 2006
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
Hardly an irony, young Zach.
After all Joan of Arc was burned as a sorcerer and heretic and was eventually canonised.
I just wonder what all these disaffected Anglicans think they are getting into...they mght be in for a rude shock after all that FiF Anglo-Catholicism.
And yes, it does stick in my craw that married clergy from the Anglican and (some) Orthodox traditions are welcomed with open arms, and the local lads are expected to burn rather than to marry ( those who are that way inclined).
m
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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