homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Purgatory: Pope announces plans for Anglicans to convert in groups (Page 4)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  ...  20  21  22 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Pope announces plans for Anglicans to convert in groups
Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804

 - Posted      Profile for Olaf     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by shameless:
I find it very strange in my study of the history of the church that each sovereign power, or country had its' own version of the catholic church. Yes there was and is an English Catholic Church. Don't forget that catholic means universal and universal means encompasing the many variations. We are all one body though many parts.

Shameless

The Orthodox, IMHO, are much better at this line of thinking than those in communion with Rome. I frequently encounter Orthodox who will say things like, "Eh. The church is the church." (And yes, they know I'm Lutheran, and frankly they don't see why a denomination matters at all, and furrow their brows in a desperate attempt to understand the situation. Their view is often very all-encompassing. It reminds me of that father...or was it an uncle...on My Big Fat Greek Wedding who in his own mind was able to justify anything or anyone in the whole world as Greek.)
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006  |  IP: Logged
ChastMastr
Shipmate
# 716

 - Posted      Profile for ChastMastr   Author's homepage   Email ChastMastr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Man. This is... awkward.

I started out in the Roman Catholic Church in the early 1980s. I wound up Episcopalian though I wondered off and on, especially while wrestling with certain doctrinal issues, if I'd end up coming back to Rome. Some of those issues are ones held in high importance by the "continuing Anglicans," though it still saddens and frustrates me that it was sexual and not Creedal matters which led to their departure.

The RCC that I experienced back in those days was very Vatican II. A new openness to dialogue, etc. Christ Among Us as the CCD book. And so on.

Things seem to me to have changed, especially recently with the current Pope, in the RCC. I perceive a kind of reactionary anger -- bumper stickers that say "The cafeteria is CLOSED!" and things like that. A growing sense that Rome is trying to throw out Vatican II.

I'm very much a doctrinally orthodox Anglican/Episcopalian Christian who almost left over issues like the ordination of women (since convinced of their validity). My views on sexuality are in various older posts (and I don't want to derail this into that). I'm aghast when clergy deny the Incarnation, redemptive death, and Resurrection of Jesus. But the people who left the Episcopal church for "continuing Anglican" churches -- at least the ones I have known personally, and much of what I have read by other people who have left, and, importantly, I do not mean people I know on the Ship -- have seemed to me to be full of shrill anger, not trying to build bridges and have dialogue with those with whom they disagree, but with bitter, venomous invective, full of malice and resentment, even once they've left still talking nonstop about how those horrible liberal people are destroying all that is good.

Honestly, I'm concerned that Rome bringing these people in will not help the former Anglicans to be healthier, and will hurt the RCC -- it sounds like it's bringing in precisely the people who will continue to attack Vatican II and related things. I fear that this is the intent -- that these people are being approached because they seem focused on fighting (and not dialoguing with) those who argue for "liberal innovations" -- in order to shore up the "cafeteria is closed" direction. If this is true, it saddens me.

David

--------------------
My essays on comics continuity: http://chastmastr.tumblr.com/tagged/continuity

Posts: 14068 | From: Clearwater, Florida | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

 - Posted      Profile for Father Gregory   Author's homepage   Email Father Gregory   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Dear Martin L

You have been dealing with too many "Greeks" .... OR I'll just assume that was an analogy to an ecumenist ecclesiology which is being severely challenged in Orthodoxy right now. Orthodoxy's position that "the Church is the Church" is identical to Rome's view in ones important respect. It is the whole package. This is not inconsistent with a certain diversity. Don't forget that Orthodoxy has western rites (pretty lousy ones admittedly).

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
Find Your Way Around the Plot
TheOrthodoxPlot™

Posts: 15099 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What ChastMastr said, pretty much.

Also, picking up on one of the points made by Fr Gregory just back over the page, how will CofE clergy planning to defect cope with a drop in stipend from >£20000 to c.£8000???

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
aumbry
Shipmate
# 436

 - Posted      Profile for aumbry         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fuzzipeg:

Anglicans seem to be obsessed with what people do rather than their spiritual health and the Ship seems to reflect that. [/QB]

Only Anglicans in your imagination. I have never met an Anglican who was obsessed about how many times the sign of the cross was made.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
multipara
Shipmate
# 2918

 - Posted      Profile for multipara   Author's homepage   Email multipara   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Jeez, I have.

Aumbry, you need to get out more.

m

Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002  |  IP: Logged
Foaming Draught
The Low in Low Church
# 9134

 - Posted      Profile for Foaming Draught   Email Foaming Draught   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
What chance of an opposite flow?

Good question.

FD [Cool]

Posts: 8661 | From: Et in Australia Ego | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
aumbry
Shipmate
# 436

 - Posted      Profile for aumbry         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by multipara:
Jeez, I have.

Aumbry, you need to get out more.

m

Well I've never met any Anglicans from New South Wales perhaps the heat is affecting them.

(You may be surprised to hear that the majority of Anglican congregants even in anglo-catholic churches in England are not much taken to making the sign of the cross at all. I think you'll find that the sort of old queens who make a big fuss about liturgical choreography are restricted to a tiny number of churches in England).

[ 22. October 2009, 12:06: Message edited by: aumbry ]

Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh, let's not deny the existence of Anglicans that just want the priest to mumble lots of things while walking back and forth crossing him or herself. But let's not act like they are even a significant minority outside of Eccles and parish worship committees either.

Zach

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

 - Posted      Profile for Organ Builder   Email Organ Builder   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by shameless:
It just amazes me all the fear from so many detractors. The paint isn't even dry and all that can be seen are the defects.

There is a difference between fear and interest. I haven't really seen a lot of fear on this board--or, to be honest, from most of what I have read from my side of the Atlantic. After all, something similar has been available in the US for several decades now and has failed to gain much traction--some 7 churches, I think? And not all of those have their own building (which isn't that important, but I suspect it does help a congregation establish a psychological sense of permanence needed to convey a special rite to the next generation).

Until there is some clear information about numbers in the UK, interest is bound to continue--though I suspect in ten years time this will just be one more tempest in the teapot.

I heard an interview with a reporter from the National Catholic Review this morning, who feels this will bolster the conservative wing of the RCs. As a result, most of the uneasiness in the US seems to be from the non-conservative RCs--especially those (as ChastMastr has noted) who welcomed Vatican II.

--------------------
How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38

 - Posted      Profile for Honest Ron Bacardi   Email Honest Ron Bacardi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, I don't see much fear here either - quite a lot of interested banter from different viewpoints, attempts to second-guess how things might pan out, etc.

I have just been on a trawl across the intertubes to see what others are saying - and there is indeed some fear and loathing out there. Those who enjoy that sort of thing will know where to find the appropriate flavour.

I think I would diverge mildly from Organ Builder though in pointing out that although there are similarities with the American precedent (soon to be former?), there are also major departures from it, not least of which is the separation of the ordinary from the role of diocesan bishop. How it pans out, time will tell though.

--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic

Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376

 - Posted      Profile for Forthview   Email Forthview   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think that the problem with divorce and remarriage will be an important element in this.

In the last 40 years divorce has become almost commonplace and most non-roman Catholic churches make accommodation for this.

The Catholic church cannot change its ideas on the indissolubility of christian marriage,even although it has been investigating new possibilities of what exactly 'christian marriage' entails. A number of important clergy,as for example Kardinal Schoenborn of Vienna have questioned the policy of excluding from Communion 're-married' Catholics.

At the end of the day people can ,if need be, accommodate to almost any dogma,but it is more difficult to accommodate to something which is part of one's intimate life style.

It is surely OTT to suggest ,as some have done,that the pope is really trying to bring into the Catholic church Lutherans. Of course in one sense ,yes, the pope would wish to bring all of humanity into visible and full communion with the Catholic church,but German Lutherans anyway have a different way of looking at the Church.It might be possible to get Scandinavian Lutherans to enter the Church,but although Scandinavian Lutherans follow many (sort of) Catholic forms there is little knowledge of Catholicism in these countries,certainly not the interest which one has amongst the Anglo Catholics.

Amongst the Latin clergy celibacy has been compulsory since the 13th century but there have been married Latin Catholic priests,at least as far back as the time of Pius XII who gave permission to a number of convert Scandinavian former Lutheran pastors to become Catholic priests even although they were married.

Although possible former Anglican married priests would be a good thing for showing Catholics the married priests could be a 'good thing' the rationale behind this is really something quite different.

Latin Catholic seminarians know from the beginning what the discipline is.Clergy from other conditions habve a different background where celibacy has not been compulsory.The Catholic church recognises their call from God,even if it does not recognise them as 'Catholic priests' but is willing to confirm within the Catholic church, that call which they received while still putside of full communion with the Catholic church.

Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

 - Posted      Profile for Organ Builder   Email Organ Builder   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
I think I would diverge mildly from Organ Builder though in pointing out that although there are similarities with the American precedent (soon to be former?), there are also major departures from it, not least of which is the separation of the ordinary from the role of diocesan bishop. How it pans out, time will tell though.

That is the wild card, isn't it? Again, I don't see it doing much in the US--Our Anglo-Catholics are not usually Anglo-Papists. I owe my education about differences between US and UK A-Cs to the Ship, so I'll be interested in seeing how it plays out over time.

My suspicion is that the laity--more than the clergy, perhaps--will take a "wait and see" attitude, and most of the them will decide to keep going to St. Adelbert-the-Unsteady-on-the-Heights every Sunday, grit their teeth until everything pans out one way or the other while saying "Yes, Father...", then simply be Roman or Anglican (in an almost-certainly smaller congregation) when the dust settles. Unless someone can convince me that the UK Anglo-Catholics will have any shot at taking the buildings with them, I suspect there will be more priests than laypeople going to Rome.

--------------------
How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Shadowhund
Shipmate
# 9175

 - Posted      Profile for Shadowhund   Author's homepage   Email Shadowhund   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Foaming Draught:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
What chance of an opposite flow?

Good question.

FD [Cool]

The nascent "The Episcopal Communion" allied with the European Old Catholic Churches is already effectively serving that function. Where, oh where is that picture of Dr. Schori with all of those flags?

--------------------
"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"

A.N. Wilson

Posts: 3788 | From: Your Disquieted Conscience | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:

I heard an interview with a reporter from the National Catholic Review this morning, who feels this will bolster the conservative wing of the RCs. As a result, most of the uneasiness in the US seems to be from the non-conservative RCs--especially those (as ChastMastr has noted) who welcomed Vatican II.

If every Anglo-Catholic in the world joined the RCs they would hardly be 1% of the total number of catholic churchgoers. Its hard to imagine they could turn that ship around in their own!

Hmmm - reality check on that - maybe 70 million Anglican churchgoers in the world. Liturgically catholic Anglicans are perhaps a third of the CofE, effectively all the North Americans, significant minorities of the West Indies and southern hemisphere English-speaking provinces, small minority of the Africans.

Say ten million churchgoers maximum?

And at least half of the British, Australian, NZ< and West Indian ones will be theologially liberal anyway.

Yep, its hard to see why liberal RCs should be worried.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

 - Posted      Profile for Organ Builder   Email Organ Builder   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:

Yep, its hard to see why liberal RCs should be worried.

I actually agree with this--in the long run, I simply don't think it stands a chance of making a difference.

Further, in the US a lot of those liturgically-Catholic Anglicans see no need and have no desire to go to Rome. That is as true in ACNA as it is in TEC or the rest of the alphabet soup that exists here (except, obviously, the TAC whose presence here is tiny).

For much of the 19th and 20th century the Episcopal Church had a status not based on its numerical strength. As a result, it's possible some RCs don't realize how small the numbers coming over will be (taken as a percentage of all US Roman Catholics).

--------------------
How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
St. Punk the Pious

Biblical™ Punk
# 683

 - Posted      Profile for St. Punk the Pious   Author's homepage   Email St. Punk the Pious   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think it will be interesting to see how property issues resolve themselves. I would hope the CofE would be gracious (and help their money situation) by selling buildings to departing parishes on reasonable terms.

--------------------
The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.

Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Is the RCC going to want to shell out millions of pounds for historical landmark buildings that will cost a fortune to maintain? Or even just 19th-century piles that require a lot of upkeep?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

 - Posted      Profile for Organ Builder   Email Organ Builder   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
I would hope the CofE would be gracious (and help their money situation) by selling buildings to departing parishes on reasonable terms.

Given the Establishment of the C of E and the Parish system (separate from a Congregation), can this be done without the involvement of Parliament?

--------------------
How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Is the RCC going to want to shell out millions of pounds for historical landmark buildings that will cost a fortune to maintain? Or even just 19th-century piles that require a lot of upkeep?

Grade One listed buildings in city centres? Who would be without them? [Biased]

On the other hand the RCs are also closing churches and losing numbers so they have their own redundant buildings.

For example, this magnificent pile. I bet there are loads of Anglo-Catholics in Lancashire who'd love to get their chasubles into that!

[ 22. October 2009, 15:40: Message edited by: ken ]

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Matt Black

Shipmate
# 2210

 - Posted      Profile for Matt Black   Email Matt Black   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Perhaps they could arrange church swaps...

--------------------
"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

 - Posted      Profile for ken     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Forthview:

It is surely OTT to suggest ,as some have done,that the pope is really trying to bring into the Catholic church Lutherans. Of course in one sense ,yes, the pope would wish to bring all of humanity into visible and full communion with the Catholic church,but German Lutherans anyway have a different way of looking at the Church.

Not so sure abut that. This is the Pope who, before he was Pope, chaired the meetings that led to the Joint Declaration On The Doctrine Of Justification by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church which was signed in Augsburg, on October 31 1999. And by all acocounts more or less pushed it through against the opposition or incomprehension of many of the other Catholics - who, unlike Ratzinger, mostly had very little knowledge of Luther or Lutheranism.

From my Protestant point of view, much of what little I have read of the large amount he has written, on theology and also on the nature of Christian ministry, has a more "Protestant" feel to it than just about any other Roman Catholic writings I've read.

He certainly knows more about Lutherans than I do! BUt that wouldn't be hard. You don't see much in the way of Lutheranism here in the UK and what little there is tends to be Scandiwegian, and in full communion with the CofE anyway. (I mean really full communion - the handful of churches in London, mostly either seamen's missions or embassy chapels, participate in our Deanery and Diocesan synods, and their priests sometimes officiate in Anglican services in Anglican parish churches using Anglican liturgy)

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
ToujoursDan

Ship's prole
# 10578

 - Posted      Profile for ToujoursDan   Email ToujoursDan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Now the Swedish Lutherans have approved gay church marriages, I am sure a call for their conservatives to switch must be around the corner.

--------------------
"Many people say I embarrass them with my humility" - Archbishop Peter Akinola
Facebook link: http://www.facebook.com/toujoursdan

Posts: 3734 | From: NYC | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I suspect that most anglo-Catholics prefer the fantasy of communion with Rome to the reality. If they don't really believe in their own ecclesial community then I wonder why they have stayed so long. They are the ultimate "cafeteria Catholics," who sit in one restaurant and order off the menu of another.

How many clergy are going to go from a stipend of £22,000 a year to £8,000 a year,

How many of them work in gin and lace middle-class, eclectic parishes and will they want to be sent where they are needed, amongst the poorest communities rather than middle class suburbs.

Maybe we should offer the same sort of thing for Vatican 2 RCs who fear the backward direction to Latin and conservative doctrine – The Anglican Novus Ordo ecclesial community.

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206

 - Posted      Profile for Thurible   Email Thurible   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:

How many of them work in gin and lace middle-class, eclectic parishes and will they want to be sent where they are needed, amongst the poorest communities rather than middle class suburbs.

You what? I can think of one or two but where all these middle-class ABC parishes?

Thurible

--------------------
"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472

 - Posted      Profile for Fr Weber   Email Fr Weber   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Things seem to me to have changed, especially recently with the current Pope, in the RCC. I perceive a kind of reactionary anger -- bumper stickers that say "The cafeteria is CLOSED!" and things like that. A growing sense that Rome is trying to throw out Vatican II.
David

What exactly do you mean by "Vatican II"? Do you mean the actual documents of the council, or the so-called "Spirit of Vatican II"?

It appears to me that the Pope is not trying to erase Vatican II, but to implement it according to the letter of its canons. The council was never meant to relegate the Extraordinary Form to the dustbin. Benedict isn't edging out the NO, but making the TLM available to those who want it.

The second Vatican Council was hijacked, at least in the US, by self-absorbed baby-boomers who did their best to Congregationalize the church in the "spirit of Vatican II". The pendulum is swinging back, not least because the young people (in whose name so many of these changes were pushed) are not impressed by the New Grooviness. There's no reason that the maximalism of the TLM and the minimalism of the NO can't exist in the same church, but all of y'all are gonna have to learn how to share and play nice with each other.

--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
St. Punk the Pious

Biblical™ Punk
# 683

 - Posted      Profile for St. Punk the Pious   Author's homepage   Email St. Punk the Pious   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Leo, don't Anglo-Caths have a distinguished history of work amongst the poor?

--------------------
The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.

Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472

 - Posted      Profile for Fr Weber   Email Fr Weber   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
How many of them work in gin and lace middle-class, eclectic parishes and will they want to be sent where they are needed, amongst the poorest communities rather than middle class suburbs.

That doesn't appear to be what this is about at all. The plan seems to be to draw entire parishes (or perhaps an entire church body) into the RCC.

FiF is not the target of this initiative. The RCs have been talking to the TAC about this kind of move for several years. From the TAC's point of view, the sticking points have been : 1) the long-term commitment of the RCC to an Anglican Use and 2) the ability of former Anglicans to retain their own jurisdiction, without meddling by diocesans who don't understand their spirituality and rite. This plan provides for an establishment of an Ordinary in each country in which there is an Anglican Use, and the Anglican Use congregations and clergy will answer only to that Ordinary. Reassignment of former Anglican clergy to Roman Rite parishes has not been mentioned (although that would indeed be a possibility for individual converts who come to the RCC under other circumstances).

Of course, we'll all have to wait to see exactly what the Apostolic Constitution says. It just seems to me that a lot of the speculation flying around is going way beyond the actual content of the press release.

--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008  |  IP: Logged
Sarum Sleuth
Shipmate
# 162

 - Posted      Profile for Sarum Sleuth   Email Sarum Sleuth   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Originally posted by St Punk the Pious don't Anglo-Caths have a distinguished history of work amongst the poor?

I hope Leo doesn't mind me jumping in on this one!
Yes, some did, but I suspect they were in a minority. Names like Lowder and Stanton immediately spring to mind, and many of the great shrine churches were in poor areas in days gone by. However, it is forgotten that a lot of Anglo-Papalists in particular held extremely right wing views, eg Fr Spencer Jones's defence of Franco and Mussolini. This tendency is still not dead: I can think of a few current Anglo-Catholic blogs which are pretty well to the right politically.

SS

--------------------
The Parson's Handbook contains much excellent advice, which, if it were more generally followed, would bring some order and reasonableness into the amazing vagaries of Anglican Ritualism. Adrian Fortescue

Posts: 848 | From: England, 1549 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

 - Posted      Profile for Organ Builder   Email Organ Builder   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
Of course, we'll all have to wait to see exactly what the Apostolic Constitution says. It just seems to me that a lot of the speculation flying around is going way beyond the actual content of the press release.

Even from the US I can tell that part of the reason for the speculation is because of the implications for the balance of power in the UK's General Synod--which may or may not have been considered by PBXVI.

I'm not sure the actual text of the Apostolic Constitution will matter for that particular political dance...

--------------------
How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
Shadowhund
Shipmate
# 9175

 - Posted      Profile for Shadowhund   Author's homepage   Email Shadowhund   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
John Shelton Reed's "Glorious Battle" as well as Pickering's book on Anglo-Catholicism indicates that a subset of the Anglo Catholic movement got their hands dirty with "the poor" a la Lowder, etc. but that they were neither more nor less successfuly with "the poor" than any other well-meaning educated busybodies or the Salvation Army. Yet, a section of "the poor" were quite loyal to ACism against its opponents.

SS is wrong to conflate support for Franco or the european right with a lack of care or concern with "the poor." In fact, the right was quite concerned with social justice for the poor, but did not necessarily agree with the solutions proposed by the Christian socialists or the "Christian" marxists. The "Distributists" of the Chestertons, Belloc, and some of their AC fellow-travellers generally fell along the political right of the 20s-30s, but were not often in opposition to policies favored by big business, Fleet Street, the banks, or Rhodes-style imperial adventurism. The Distributists favored a wide distribution of property, bank-busting, and credit unions. OTOH, they tended to oppose, AFAIK, progressive taxation and social security schemes.

That is not to say that two-bottle orthodoxy "Church and Kingism" high churchmanship lacked prominence in AC circles of either the right or left.

The American scene in ACism was a mixed bag, of which political POV on social justice issues determined mostly by regional differences (IMO) with the Floridian high churchmen quite different from that of the biretta belt, which was in turn quite different from New England. Even there, it was a mixed bag. As a general tendency, the American AC clergy were much further to the left and had a far less conservative temperment socially, theologically, and politically, than the laity. This would, in time, have fateful consequences.

[ 22. October 2009, 17:02: Message edited by: Shadowhund ]

--------------------
"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"

A.N. Wilson

Posts: 3788 | From: Your Disquieted Conscience | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
aumbry
Shipmate
# 436

 - Posted      Profile for aumbry         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
Originally posted by St Punk the Pious don't Anglo-Caths have a distinguished history of work amongst the poor?

I hope Leo doesn't mind me jumping in on this one!
Yes, some did, but I suspect they were in a minority. Names like Lowder and Stanton immediately spring to mind, and many of the great shrine churches were in poor areas in days gone by. However, it is forgotten that a lot of Anglo-Papalists in particular held extremely right wing views, eg Fr Spencer Jones's defence of Franco and Mussolini. This tendency is still not dead: I can think of a few current Anglo-Catholic blogs which are pretty well to the right politically.

SS

I don't think they were in the minority. In London for every St Paul's Knightsbridge or St Mary's Primrose Hill there would be a dozen smokey red brick churches in the poorest areas. Some of these churches were hugely successful in the nineteenth century - St John the Divine Vassal Road springs to mind which was the foundation for all sorts of Christian establishments. This pattern was repeated throughout the towns and cities of England.

[ 22. October 2009, 17:07: Message edited by: aumbry ]

Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898

 - Posted      Profile for New Yorker   Email New Yorker   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Some of those issues are ones held in high importance by the "continuing Anglicans," though it still saddens and frustrates me that it was sexual and not Creedal matters which led to their departure.

But you miss the point. Those in the Continuing Anglican movement that I know disagree with "sexual matters" because of their faith. So it is not just sexual issues, but sincere doctrinal issues.


quote:
... bumper stickers that say "The cafeteria is CLOSED!"
I want one! Of course, not having a car I'll have to hold it out the window of the bus or over my head in the subway.

quote:
A growing sense that Rome is trying to throw out Vatican II.
Far from it. Rome is trying to correctly implement Vatican II's teachings and throw out those teachings that are not in agreement with Vatican II or I or Trent, etc.

quote:
But the people who left the Episcopal church for "continuing Anglican" churches ... have seemed to me to be full of shrill anger, not trying to build bridges and have dialogue with those with whom they disagree, but with bitter, venomous invective, full of malice and resentment, even once they've left still talking nonstop about how those horrible liberal people are destroying all that is good.
This description does not apply to any member of a Continuing Movement I know. That is not to say that it is not a description of some Continuers. But, many liberal members of TEC could be described this way.
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Fëanor
Shipmate
# 14514

 - Posted      Profile for Fëanor   Email Fëanor   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Some of those issues are ones held in high importance by the "continuing Anglicans," though it still saddens and frustrates me that it was sexual and not Creedal matters which led to their departure.

But you miss the point. Those in the Continuing Anglican movement that I know disagree with "sexual matters" because of their faith. So it is not just sexual issues, but sincere doctrinal issues.

While I'm sure this is true for some of the Continuing Anglican Movement, consider, otoh, the ACNA. You have quite a lot of hardline "conservative" Anglo-Catholics (including some Anglo-Papalists) who jumped into bed both with the REC and a number of groups who ordain women. While "doctrinal issues" may be informing their disagreement on sexual matters, it would appear that sexual matters (a cynic might read: homophobia) are the only thing they're not willing to compromise on.
Posts: 177 | From: Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell | Registered: Jan 2009  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by New Yorker:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Some of those issues are ones held in high importance by the "continuing Anglicans," though it still saddens and frustrates me that it was sexual and not Creedal matters which led to their departure.

But you miss the point. Those in the Continuing Anglican movement that I know disagree with "sexual matters" because of their faith. So it is not just sexual issues, but sincere doctrinal issues.
No, you missed his point -- he said credal issues, not doctrinal issues. There is nothing about sexuality in the creeds, though of course sexual matters are doctrinal.

quote:
quote:
But the people who left the Episcopal church for "continuing Anglican" churches ... have seemed to me to be full of shrill anger, not trying to build bridges and have dialogue with those with whom they disagree, but with bitter, venomous invective, full of malice and resentment, even once they've left still talking nonstop about how those horrible liberal people are destroying all that is good.
This description does not apply to any member of a Continuing Movement I know. That is not to say that it is not a description of some Continuers. But, many liberal members of TEC could be described this way.
Oh, come on -- we all know there is plenty of invective coming from folks on all sides.

The issue of divorce raised earlier in this thread is interesting -- well, actually, it seems kind of vexed to me. Will the RCC allow divorced and remarried former Anglicans to take communion on the grounds that they weren't properly married in the RCC in the first place? What would that say about the status of those second marriages? Will they ordain divorced priests?

Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376

 - Posted      Profile for Forthview   Email Forthview   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I rejoice in the joint declaration on justification signed by the Lutheran world Federation and the Catholic church in 1999.

It reminds us that the difficulties between the historic confessions of Christianity are often not really all that great.

Of course the pope, being German(well really Bavarian !) is likely to know something more about German Lutheranism than the average Englishman,but it doesn't mean that the only reason for the signing of this document was to entice German Lutherans to become Catholics.

These days most German Catholics see little difference between themselves and Lutherans, though I think that a number of Lutherans have grave reservations about Catholics. However ,to my mind,these are more cultural rather than religious.

Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
New Yorker
Shipmate
# 9898

 - Posted      Profile for New Yorker   Email New Yorker   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Oh, come on -- we all know there is plenty of invective coming from folks on all sides.

That was the point I was trying to make. It's not just a portion of the Continuers who are shrill, quite a few on the "Remainders??" are shrill too!
Posts: 3193 | From: New York City | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376

 - Posted      Profile for Forthview   Email Forthview   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
In reply to the previous poster about divorce,is it possible for the Catholic church to say that divorced and 'remarried' anglicans were unaware of the Catholic doctrine of sacramental marriage at the time that they contracted a second marriage while their first spouse was still living ? or that they were unaware of any 'sacrament' of marriage at the time that they contracted their first marriage ? Or did the first marriage fulfil all the conditions for a Catholic sacramental marriage ?
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:

How many of them work in gin and lace middle-class, eclectic parishes and will they want to be sent where they are needed, amongst the poorest communities rather than middle class suburbs.

You what? I can think of one or two but where all these middle-class ABC parishes?

Thurible

I live in one!
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sarum Sleuth:
Originally posted by St Punk the Pious don't Anglo-Caths have a distinguished history of work amongst the poor?

I hope Leo doesn't mind me jumping in on this one!
Yes, some did, but I suspect they were in a minority. Names like Lowder and Stanton immediately spring to mind, and many of the great shrine churches were in poor areas in days gone by. However, it is forgotten that a lot of Anglo-Papalists in particular held extremely right wing views, eg Fr Spencer Jones's defence of Franco and Mussolini. This tendency is still not dead: I can think of a few current Anglo-Catholic blogs which are pretty well to the right politically.

SS

Yes - you have said it for me. Ken Leech, whom i have known for years and with whom I am still in touch, is probably the greatest living expert on our history and he would concur that most A/C priests were tory paternalists who 'helped' the poor or socialites who drank sherry and gin with posh ladies (of both genders).

[ 22. October 2009, 19:06: Message edited by: leo ]

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

 - Posted      Profile for Organ Builder   Email Organ Builder   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I would bet that the option to become Roman priests will NOT be extended to those who have been divorced--but that is obviously pure speculation.

--------------------
How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Eric Mascall, who was hardly low church wrote:

I am an Ultra-Catholic - No 'Anglo-,' I beseech you!
You'll find no trace of heresy in anything I teach you.
The clergyman across the road has whiskers and a bowler,
But I wear buckles on my shoes and sport a feriola.

I teach the children in my school the Penny Catechism,
Explaining how the C. of E.'s in heresy and schism.
The truths of Trent and Vatican I bate not one iota.
I have not met the Rural Dean. I do not pay my quota.

The Bishop's put me under his 'profoundest disapproval'
And, though he cannot bring about my actual removal,
He will not come and visit me or take my confirmations.
Colonial prelates I employ from far-off mission-stations.

The Holy Father I extol in fervid perorations,
The Cardinals in Curia, the Sacred Congregations;
And, though I've not submitted yet, as all my friends expected,
I should have gone last Tuesday week, had not my wife objected.

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Shadowhund
Shipmate
# 9175

 - Posted      Profile for Shadowhund   Author's homepage   Email Shadowhund   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
I would bet that the option to become Roman priests will NOT be extended to those who have been divorced--but that is obviously pure speculation.

I believe divorced men were not permitted to be ordained under the old Pastoral Provision. This is a major reason why many continuing Anglican clergy will not come over. In fact, one of the Archbishops of an American province has been married at least twice. For that reason, his election was the occasion of a schism in his church several years back. A particularly obnoxious chancellor of another continuing jurisdiction is also a serial bigamist.

[ 22. October 2009, 19:28: Message edited by: Shadowhund ]

--------------------
"Had the Dean's daughter worn a bra that afternoon, Norman Shotover might never have found out about the Church of England; still less about how to fly"

A.N. Wilson

Posts: 3788 | From: Your Disquieted Conscience | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged
Resurgam
Shipmate
# 14891

 - Posted      Profile for Resurgam     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:

quote:
... bumper stickers that say "The cafeteria is CLOSED!"
I want one! Of course, not having a car I'll have to hold it out the window of the bus or over my head in the subway.
[Biased]

I have wondered however, if the Catholic Church in the US will simply be getting cafeteria converts. In general, the friends who have left our (Episcopal) parish won't mind the veneration of Mary or prayers for the Pope inserted in their 1928 Prayer Books, but I wonder whether they will conform to the church's teaching when it comes to artificial birth control. (Albeit most of the women I know who have left are beyond childbearing age.)The "splitters" (to quote from "The Life of Brian") have become accustomed to having their own say and doing things their own way.

Posts: 54 | Registered: Jun 2009  |  IP: Logged
Alt Wally

Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245

 - Posted      Profile for Alt Wally     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There is not even just no point in being a cafeteria convert, it is in fact a crazy idea. If you're going to join the club, you really should buy off on it lock, stock and barrel. I think that goes back to the point (I'm pretty sure somebody made) that if the potential converts really believed the underlying precepts of the RCC, they would live with a hideous Pauline mass now or a while ago instead of holding out for their own liturgy. I would imagine the argument goes something like that.

[ 22. October 2009, 20:28: Message edited by: Alt Wally ]

Posts: 3684 | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

 - Posted      Profile for RuthW     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
There is not even just no point in being a cafeteria convert, it is in fact a crazy idea. If you're going to join the club, you really should buy off on it lock, stock and barrel.

Why? Lots of people already in the club don't.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Man with a Stick
Shipmate
# 12664

 - Posted      Profile for The Man with a Stick   Email The Man with a Stick   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:
Originally posted by St. Punk the Pious:
I would hope the CofE would be gracious (and help their money situation) by selling buildings to departing parishes on reasonable terms.

Given the Establishment of the C of E and the Parish system (separate from a Congregation), can this be done without the involvement of Parliament?
Combine two parishes into one (mother/daughter church arrangement), make daughter church redundant, sell/give church to the swimmers. Simples.
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
fisher
Shipmate
# 9080

 - Posted      Profile for fisher     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
If every Anglo-Catholic in the world joined the RCs they would hardly be 1% of the total number of catholic churchgoers... Yep, its hard to see why liberal RCs should be worried.

Eventually, this must be right, but I can see it having a disproportionate influence in the shorter term. It looks like one of several recent moves that go out of their way to be more welcoming to groups that have defined themselves by conservative doctrinal positions on controversial issues, but have for one reason or another been separated from the RCC.

I should temporarily put aside my tendency for grumbling about the Vatican and admit that this broad approach has to be right, whatever the details of individual policies. Welcoming in, or back, those that can accept the full RCC teaching but have been separated by non-fundamentals is hard to criticise. But, even if only as a side-effect, these moves have a conservative-leaning flavour beyond the small numbers involved.

--------------------
"Down, down, presumptuous human reason!" But somehow they found out I was not a real bishop at all G. K. Chesterton

Posts: 1327 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206

 - Posted      Profile for Thurible   Email Thurible   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:

How many of them work in gin and lace middle-class, eclectic parishes and will they want to be sent where they are needed, amongst the poorest communities rather than middle class suburbs.

You what? I can think of one or two but where all these middle-class ABC parishes?

Thurible

I live in one!
I know - and yours is one of three that I can think of in the whole of the Ebbsfleet area (Clifton, Stony Stratford and Sarum S, Martin) off the top of my head!

Thurible

[ 22. October 2009, 20:48: Message edited by: Thurible ]

--------------------
"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

Posts: 8049 | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Organ Builder
Shipmate
# 12478

 - Posted      Profile for Organ Builder   Email Organ Builder   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by The Man with a Stick:
Combine two parishes into one (mother/daughter church arrangement), make daughter church redundant, sell/give church to the swimmers. Simples.

That sounds pretty easy here on the computer screen--would it create unholy screeching on the ground?

--------------------
How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

Posts: 3337 | From: ...somewhere in between 40 and death... | Registered: Mar 2007  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  7  ...  20  21  22 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools