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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Pope announces plans for Anglicans to convert in groups
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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The thing to watch is really not so much the Anglican side, in my opinion. In addition to my point above about Catholic liturgy, it will be really interesting to see to what extent regular Latin rite Catholics, lay and ordained, can become part of this new rite.

If the movements are left entirely free, this new rite may become 1) a haven for those whom the rad-trads call neo-cons (i.e., people with a love for tradition, who are not hung up about turning back the clock precisely to 1960), 2) a way for married men to become priests. This has some potential to become a major movement within Catholicism. I for one would certainly pay a visit if such a parish was set up in reachable distance to me (unlikely now, but who knows about the future...).

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Alex Cockell

Ship’s penguin
# 7487

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My concern is what about your average member?

From what I gather, the congo transfers across if the individual pastor decides to defect/transition to Rome. Wouldn't this be causing problems in the consciences of some of that pastor's congo, in that they might find themselves being asked to pray stuff that goes diametrically against what they'd previously been taught?

One other question I have, which isn't apparent from areas where I've looked.. what *is* the RC hierarchy's view of the Baptist Union etc? Cos I've taken communion in an Anglican joint before - no probs.. (yeah I know this bit's DH)...

What will be the effect on churches working together?

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
Perhaps this article from the National Catholic Reporter's might clarify the matter supposedly under discussion on this thread?

http://ncronline.org/news/what-vaticans-welcome-anglicans-means

The article says pretty much what most people have been saying here. The discussion beneath it shows that there are a lot of paranoid loonies everywhere...

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Matt Black

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# 2210

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quote:
Originally posted by Eddy:
quote:
Originally posted by Matt Black:
Nothing to stop them disregarding that 'Act of State' and crossing the Tiber - why don't they?

Because some of them couldn't because they are divorced and remarried.

Because some of them have live in boyfriends.

Because some like being big fishes but in RC church would be small ones.



I'm not sure though how these three of the reasons you've given are not going to be equally cogent (in the medium-term at least) for not crossing over on the terms currently on offer. I can't really see +++Benny rolling over and letting his tummy be tickled on #1 and #2 for example.

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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cor ad cor loquitur
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# 11816

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Whilst I disagree with Ingo's hypothesis that a central motivation for this Vatican announcement was liturgical, I think he's right that the liturgical issues implied in it are both important and interesting.

For example: if the horrid new "English" translations à la Liturgiam Authenticam are imposed on parishes in the US and UK, I know a good number of Catholic priests and laypeople who will strongly prefer the liturgy in the Book of Divine Worship over the gobbledygook that they will find in their missalettes. Some "Anglican Use" Catholic churches could find themselves very full, very quickly.

These liturgical issues are missing from John Allen's otherwise excellent analysis -- thanks, Sir Pellinore, for the reference.

On the timing of the announcement: the historian David Starkey asserts that this was strategically calculated:
quote:
You can’t fault the Pope’s timing. The Vatican’s announcement last week that it would welcome back disaffected Anglicans after centuries of schism was a calculated move to coincide with the 500th anniversary of Henry VIII’s accession.

The Catholic Church has a profound historic awareness. What better moment to indicate that it believes the English Reformation, which was irrevocably set in motion during Henry’s reign, can — and should — be reversed?

Starkey makes it sound like Jesuitical shrewdness was in operation here; given the usual ineptitude in communication and timing that the Vatican displays (and the press office is run by a Jesuit!) I struggle to believe that the timing was all that carefully planned. But it's an intriguing perspective nonetheless.

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Quam vos veritatem interpretationis, hanc eruditi κακοζηλίαν nuncupant … si ad verbum interpretor, absurde resonant. (St Jerome, Ep. 57 to Pammachius)

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Chesterbelloc

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# 3128

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The discussion beneath [the NCR article] shows that there are a lot of paranoid loonies everywhere...

Exactimundissimus.

[ 26. October 2009, 12:26: Message edited by: Chesterbelloc ]

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"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
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.... and you know, they are all out to get us! [Eek!]

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
[

If Father Kirk and +Ebbsfleet really believe that the Holy Father is the Holy Father then what are they waiting for?

How can a priest or bishop who believe in the Roman Catholic Church as they now claim to do so continue to celebrate the sacraments of the heretical church outside?

I think that ++Canterbury should suspend +Ebbsfleet now. I don't see how he can give the requisite oaths of allegiance any longer.

Can anyone clarify reports (referred to in a letter in Friday's Times) that +Ebbsfleet and +Richborough flew to Rome to talk about this without telling ++Rowan? If this is true (and I'm not saying it is) then (i) Rome has been rather discourteous in talking to the monkeys without consulting organ grinder (ii) Ebbsfleet and Richborough have bitten the hand that fed them, big-time.
But as i say, I don't know whether this report is true or not.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Fifi
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
[

If Father Kirk and +Ebbsfleet really believe that the Holy Father is the Holy Father then what are they waiting for?

How can a priest or bishop who believe in the Roman Catholic Church as they now claim to do so continue to celebrate the sacraments of the heretical church outside?

I think that ++Canterbury should suspend +Ebbsfleet now. I don't see how he can give the requisite oaths of allegiance any longer.

Can anyone clarify reports (referred to in a letter in Friday's Times) that +Ebbsfleet and +Richborough flew to Rome to talk about this without telling ++Rowan? If this is true (and I'm not saying it is) then (i) Rome has been rather discourteous in talking to the monkeys without consulting organ grinder (ii) Ebbsfleet and Richborough have bitten the hand that fed them, big-time.
But as i say, I don't know whether this report is true or not.

The report is not true. The Archbishop was fully briefed, both before and after their trip to Rome.
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rosamundi

Ship's lacemaker
# 2495

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quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
From what I gather, the congo transfers across if the individual pastor decides to defect/transition to Rome. Wouldn't this be causing problems in the consciences of some of that pastor's congo, in that they might find themselves being asked to pray stuff that goes diametrically against what they'd previously been taught?

Each individual conversion will be a matter for the person concerned. If a priest decides to convert, he won't be dragging his congregation with him willy-nilly. Likewise if one or two, or even the majority, of a particular church's membership decides to come to Rome, those who wish to remain as Anglicans will do so.

There was a recent case where some Anglican All Saints Sisters of the Poor joined the Catholic Church - 10 of the Sisters, and their chaplain, were received, but two of the Sisters remained Anglican. Admittedly, they are slightly unusual in that a congregation of Sisters is a bit different to a congregation of laity, but there were no forced conversions.

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New Yorker
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
But isn't it Rome's perspective that the break from the Church under Henry VIII forever and irrevocably tainted the line of Apostolic succession of England's priests?

As I understand it, Rome's view is that Apostolicae Curae was certainly correct when proclaimed and Anglican Orders are invalid. However, much water has passed under the bridge and some Anglicans since then have had Old Catholic bishops in their episcopal lineage thus raising a doubt as to the invalidity of some Anglican ministers. (This is called the "Dutch Touch.") So the presumption is that Anglican Orders are invalid but a doubt can be raised about the invalidity. In practice, I don't think this has happened often.
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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
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What a degenerate understanding of Apostolic Succession.

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Yours in Christ
Fr. Gregory
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TheOrthodoxPlot™

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Albertus
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# 13356

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quote:
Originally posted by Fifi:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
[

If Father Kirk and +Ebbsfleet really believe that the Holy Father is the Holy Father then what are they waiting for?

How can a priest or bishop who believe in the Roman Catholic Church as they now claim to do so continue to celebrate the sacraments of the heretical church outside?

I think that ++Canterbury should suspend +Ebbsfleet now. I don't see how he can give the requisite oaths of allegiance any longer.

Can anyone clarify reports (referred to in a letter in Friday's Times) that +Ebbsfleet and +Richborough flew to Rome to talk about this without telling ++Rowan? If this is true (and I'm not saying it is) then (i) Rome has been rather discourteous in talking to the monkeys without consulting organ grinder (ii) Ebbsfleet and Richborough have bitten the hand that fed them, big-time.
But as i say, I don't know whether this report is true or not.

The report is not true. The Archbishop was fully briefed, both before and after their trip to Rome.
This is good to hear. Disloyalty and ingratitude on the part of the two PEVs, then, but at least not duplicity.

[ 26. October 2009, 13:46: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Trisagion
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# 5235

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quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
What a degenerate understanding of Apostolic Succession.

Indeed, but is New Yorker's understanding, not that of the Catholic Church.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by rosamundi:
If a priest decides to convert, he won't be dragging his congregation with him willy-nilly. Likewise if one or two, or even the majority, of a particular church's membership decides to come to Rome, those who wish to remain as Anglicans will do so.

The question is, which group gets to keep the church building itself - the priest and his followers, or the loyal Anglicans?

It seems evident to me that it should be the ones who remain Anglicans.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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caercybi06
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I think that any union like this proposed one is rubbish. Look at all the problems that come with it , what to do with married clergy, with female clergy, and in Canadas case female bishops . How will people used to reciving communion in both kinds take to reciving in just 1 kind ? The 2 churches have evolved away from each other since the split in the 16th century. Lets just say thanks but
no thanks.

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In a hole in the ground there lived a hobbitt JRR Tolkien

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Fifi
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

It seems evident to me that it should be the ones who remain Anglicans.

On what grounds do you reach that conclusion, I wonder?
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Organ Builder
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quote:
Originally posted by caercybi06:
I think that any union like this proposed one is rubbish. Look at all the problems that come with it , what to do with married clergy, with female clergy, and in Canadas case female bishops . How will people used to reciving communion in both kinds take to reciving in just 1 kind ? The 2 churches have evolved away from each other since the split in the 16th century. Lets just say thanks but
no thanks.

The invitation does not extend to female clergy--except as repentant laity. Romans have been receiving communion in both kinds for years.

Both churches have indeed changed over the years, but parts of the Anglican church are probably closer to Rome right now than the two churches were just before the split in the 16th century.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Fifi
Shipmate
# 8151

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quote:
Originally posted by caercybi06:
I think that any union like this proposed one is rubbish. Look at all the problems that come with it , what to do with married clergy, with female clergy, and in Canadas case female bishops . How will people used to reciving communion in both kinds take to reciving in just 1 kind ? The 2 churches have evolved away from each other since the split in the 16th century. Lets just say thanks but
no thanks.

I confess that I am unclear as to why female clergy or female bishops would be interested in availing themselves of a provision aimed at those whose main problem with Anglicanism is, er, the ordination of, er, women . . . . . .
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Organ Builder
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# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by Fifi:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

It seems evident to me that it should be the ones who remain Anglicans.

On what grounds do you reach that conclusion, I wonder?
Given the Establishment of the English church, it seems clear any division of property will, at the very least, remain in the power of the Anglican church.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Fifi
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# 8151

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quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:
Originally posted by Fifi:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

It seems evident to me that it should be the ones who remain Anglicans.

On what grounds do you reach that conclusion, I wonder?
Given the Establishment of the English church, it seems clear any division of property will, at the very least, remain in the power of the Anglican church.
Sure. But might it not be a good thing - in the case of a parish where a clear majority of the members wished to avail themselves of the Holy See's offer - if the C of E agreed that the property went with them? After all, some might think it a thoroughly Christian thing to do . . .
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by caercybi06:
Look at all the problems that come with it , what to do with married clergy, with female clergy, and in Canadas case female bishops.

I think you are missing the point a little! It is precisely those Anglican clergy who object to women bishops who are likely to take advantage of the offer. Those who are happy with women bishops will stay Protestant. So we end up with priests who object to women bishops in a church without them, and priests who don't mind in a church with them (God willing) Which makes life simpler, not more complicated.

quote:

How will people used to reciving communion in both kinds take to reciving in just 1 kind ?

Why should they? Communion in both kinds is perfectly legal in the Roman church and actually goes on in most places. Presumably any Anglican-liturgy RCs with just carry on with their current practice.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Fifi:
But might it not be a good thing - in the case of a parish where a clear majority of the members wished to avail themselves of the Holy See's offer - if the C of E agreed that the property went with them? After all, some might think it a thoroughly Christian thing to do . . .

The bottom line is that some parishioners are going to be without a church to go to. I fail to see what's so wrong with the idea that the ones who leave the church should be the ones who are, well, leaving the church...

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Organ Builder
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# 12478

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Since ken made the point above that many of the Roman dioceses already have redundant buildings, I would suspect many parishes who wish to leave could be provided accommodations elsewhere in a manner that Rome might prefer--why would they want to add even more marginal congregations in historic (i.e., expensive-to-keep-up) buildings?

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Horseman Bree
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# 5290

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And now, from one of the New York Times' faux-conservatives, an interesting suggestion about the reason for the Pope's offer.

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It's Not That Simple

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Fifi
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# 8151

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Fifi:
But might it not be a good thing - in the case of a parish where a clear majority of the members wished to avail themselves of the Holy See's offer - if the C of E agreed that the property went with them? After all, some might think it a thoroughly Christian thing to do . . .

The bottom line is that some parishioners are going to be without a church to go to. I fail to see what's so wrong with the idea that the ones who leave the church should be the ones who are, well, leaving the church...
Fair point. But might it not be kinder to them to recognise from the outset that (assuming that they really are a minority) a pile of property will be a millstone around their necks? Better, surely, for them to move to the next C of E parish and be part of something bigger and stronger?

Unless, of course, you'd prefer the scenario where the minority get to keep the buildings, only to have the church declared redundant (so they have no choice but to move on) and sold to Tescrosebury's Supermarkets Plc.

Might not my solution be a more effective Christian witness to a secular world?

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rosamundi

Ship's lacemaker
# 2495

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The question is, which group gets to keep the church building itself - the priest and his followers, or the loyal Anglicans?

It seems evident to me that it should be the ones who remain Anglicans.

I’d have thought that depended on all sorts of things, such as who owns the church building. If the church is owned by the Anglican Church, or whichever Church the congregation is leaving, and the remaining congregation remains viable then the church building would remain the property of the original Church.

If the number of people converting renders the remaining (non-converting) congregation too small to be viable (and I have no idea at what point this would be reached, either with the Anglicans or TAC), the church could then be put up for sale, in which case it would be bought by whoever can afford it.

If the building is owned by the congregation, then it could get a bit complicated.

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Organ Builder
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# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by Fifi:

Might not my solution be a more effective Christian witness to a secular world?

Before speculating too much on how effective a witness your solution would be, I would want to know if you or your congregation would stand to gain by your solution--something I do not know at present, but which I think would be germane to the question.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Fifi
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# 8151

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quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
quote:
Originally posted by Fifi:

Might not my solution be a more effective Christian witness to a secular world?

Before speculating too much on how effective a witness your solution would be, I would want to know if you or your congregation would stand to gain by your solution--something I do not know at present, but which I think would be germane to the question.
Quite. I guess the answer really is something as simple as 'continuity'. And if most of a worshipping community wish to go, and there is in truth no other real need for the property, then another serious gain would be goodwill all round!

Anything that can be done to avoid what has been happening in one province of the Communion in recent months would be a very good thing indeed!

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Father Gregory

Orthodoxy
# 310

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Dear FiFi

quote:
I confess that I am unclear as to why female clergy or female bishops would be interested in availing themselves of a provision aimed at those whose main problem with Anglicanism is, er, the ordination of, er, women . . . . . .
Not so simple actually.

It's nice to see the Roman Church catching up with us. [Biased] The Patriarchate of Antioch has managed "group solutions" with filtered existing clergy for at least 30 years on both sides of the Atlantic and in Australia / NZ. During that time in England alone I know of at least two female priests who have surrendered their orders and become Orthodox.

[ 26. October 2009, 15:47: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]

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Fr. Gregory
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TheOrthodoxPlot™

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Organ Builder
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# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by Fifi:
Quite. I guess the answer really is something as simple as 'continuity'. And if most of a worshipping community wish to go, and there is in truth no other real need for the property, then another serious gain would be goodwill all round!

Those are some very big "ifs". Given there will already be a split, I am certainly not convinced there will be a serious gain of good will!

quote:
Originally posted by Fifi:
Anything that can be done to avoid what has been happening in one province of the Communion in recent months would be a very good thing indeed!

With all due respect, I would suggest that given the discussion in the last few posts it is already happening, albeit in a nascent manner. The difference in England is Establishment. I'm not going to pretend as an American--even one who reads the Ship faithfully--that I understand all that implies.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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New Yorker
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quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
Indeed, but is New Yorker's understanding, not that of the Catholic Church.

I am certainly open to correction. The subject of Anglican Orders has always been complex for me, but I thought I stated Rome's view correctly.

[ 26. October 2009, 15:53: Message edited by: New Yorker ]

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Honest Ron Bacardi
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# 38

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I suspect Fifi was referring more to the seemingly interminable litigations that seem to accompany departures in the USA, Organ Builder.

The sort of scenario outlined may well be possible in cities and bigger towns, though I am pretty sure that one of the earliest announcements I read specifically excluded buildings. Which is not to say that something could not be negotiated subsequently of course.

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Anglo-Cthulhic

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Fifi
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quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
I suspect Fifi was referring more to the seemingly interminable litigations that seem to accompany departures in the USA, Organ Builder.

Quite.

quote:
The sort of scenario outlined may well be possible in cities and bigger towns, though I am pretty sure that one of the earliest announcements I read specifically excluded buildings. Which is not to say that something could not be negotiated subsequently of course.
Quite.
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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Fifi:
But might it not be kinder to them to recognise from the outset that (assuming that they really are a minority) a pile of property will be a millstone around their necks? Better, surely, for them to move to the next C of E parish and be part of something bigger and stronger?

The worship life of a community should not depend on economics. People who have been going to the same church for their whole lives - who have been baptised there, confirmed there, and in some cases married there and held funerals for loved ones there - should not be told they can never again worship in that church because they had the affront to stay within the faith that the church has always professed.

Those who deliberately join another worship community are a different matter.

quote:
Might not my solution be a more effective Christian witness to a secular world?
I dount the secular world would notice one way or the other. Though you do point to an interesting conundrum - a CofE church is obligated to offer a church baptism/wedding/funeral to anyone living in the parish. If the parish church is no longer CofE, where are those parishioners to go? Somehow I can't see the RCC being happy to hatch, match or dispatch them all!

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Trisagion
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New Yorker, the issue with Anglican Orders is primarily about the theology of priesthood and the associated issue of the intention of the Church in ordaining someone. Arguments about what that intention is are 'Dead Horse' territory.

The notion that defective (in Catholic terms) intention can be overcome by grafting in a bishop from another body that might have the same intention as the Catholic Church, implies a reductionist (one might even say 'magical') sacramental theology which seems to completely ignore the ecclesial setting within which the sacraments operate.

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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse

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Fr Weber
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# 13472

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quote:
Originally posted by Alex Cockell:
My concern is what about your average member?

From what I gather, the congo transfers across if the individual pastor decides to defect/transition to Rome. Wouldn't this be causing problems in the consciences of some of that pastor's congo, in that they might find themselves being asked to pray stuff that goes diametrically against what they'd previously been taught?

One other question I have, which isn't apparent from areas where I've looked.. what *is* the RC hierarchy's view of the Baptist Union etc? Cos I've taken communion in an Anglican joint before - no probs.. (yeah I know this bit's DH)...

What will be the effect on churches working together?

There's nothing compelling the laity to go to Rome if their rector decides to go. They're free to join another parish, or to file lawsuits to prevent their building being deeded to the RCC or whatever.

The RCC considers Baptists to be Christians without a valid apostolic ministry. The establishment of the Ordinariate will not change the RCC's closed communion policy.

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Organ Builder
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Yes, I had interpreted Fifi's remarks as pointing to the US--which is why the implications of Establishment will matter in the way the whole thing develops.

Still, the physical fabric of the church--and where it stays or goes--is important in each country for much the same reason. There is a portion of the laity who may well vote to leave rather than displease Father, but plan to continue to worship in the same building with those who will join them no matter who owns it or licenses the priest. No one knows how large that portion is, and it is probably different in every congregation. I have noticed, however, that the reluctance to discuss it is matched only by the reluctance to discount it.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Fr Weber
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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
The article says pretty much what most people have been saying here. The discussion beneath it shows that there are a lot of paranoid loonies everywhere...

I have an old friend who attended seminary at the Athenaeum in Cincinnati. One summer between terms he did some work for the Archdiocese of Cincinnati in one of the suburbs. It required going door-to-door to get a count of Roman Catholics in the city. One day he walked up to a house, rang the bell, and when the lady of the house answered he explained who he was. She was horrified, and had a batshit fit, accusing him of being in league with the Jesuits and planning to round up all the good Protestants, etc. etc. etc. He waited for her to finish her rant, then looked her straight in the eye and said : "Ma'am, you're absolutely right. And now we know where you live." Whereupon he turned around and walked away.

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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Fifi
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The worship life of a community should not depend on economics. People who have been going to the same church for their whole lives - who have been baptised there, confirmed there, and in some cases married there and held funerals for loved ones there - should not be told they can never again worship in that church because they had the affront to stay within the faith that the church has always professed.

Those who deliberately join another worship community are a different matter.

No, it shouldn't depend on economics - but it does! If the remnant which is left at St Fred's cannot afford its upkeep, cannot afford to pay their parish share to the diocese, etc, etc, then economics determines that sooner or later the diocese will close it down and that they will have to move elsewhere. Not nice, but that is a fact of life in the C of E. All I'm saying is that where a large majority departs, I cannot help but think I'd rather see them take the building by agreement, rather than watch is being demolished to make way for a car park.

quote:
. . . Though you do point to an interesting conundrum - a CofE church is obligated to offer a church baptism/wedding/funeral to anyone living in the parish. If the parish church is no longer CofE, where are those parishioners to go? Somehow I can't see the RCC being happy to hatch, match or dispatch them all!
No conundrum at all. When St Fred's is closed / demolished / sold / given as a gift to the departing majority, it ceases to be the parish church. Pastoral re-organisation would simply 'move' the parish into one or more adjoining parishes. Those requiring the occasional offices would still go to their parish church (which might be a bit further away or, come to that, a bit nearer).
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angelicum
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The worship life of a community should not depend on economics. People who have been going to the same church for their whole lives - who have been baptised there, confirmed there, and in some cases married there and held funerals for loved ones there - should not be told they can never again worship in that church because they had the affront to stay within the faith that the church has always professed.

No one is suggesting that they can't worship there surely? I'm sure the ordinariate will still welcome these people.
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Father Gregory

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The Swim-meet is not going to be big in England but the CofE might graciously move a few pieces round the board to release a few surplus buildings. That way she can manage the process (sometimes for YEARS believe me!) and it does hasten the departure of the "awkward squad" freeing up Synod to do the decent thing by those who are left. If Anglo-Catholicism still thinks it's a force in the nation anymore then it is even more deluded than I dreamed possible when I was in it.

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Fr. Gregory
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seasick

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Surely if an Anglican building was given to the Catholic Church then what was its (Anglican) parish would become part of the parish of another church, just as when a parish church closes. This won't address the issue of sentimental attachment to the building - especially where there have been many baptisms, weddings, funerals etc. from a family there - but I think that suggestions that parishioners would have no access to an Anglican parish church are a little melodramatic.

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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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Father Gregory

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# 310

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True Seasick but in the CofE many people have a much stronger tie to THEIR parish church than the Church of England per se (not the parish they live in necessarily but through long association with a particular place ... the CofE gave in to this recently to try and stem its loss of weddings). The building does then become an issue. The pull to Rome would then have to be very strong indeed ... and that's NOT the same as Father doing Romish things ... because he is doing it HERE.

[ 26. October 2009, 16:33: Message edited by: Father Gregory ]

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by angelicum:
No one is suggesting that they can't worship there surely? I'm sure the ordinariate will still welcome these people.

Oh sure - just as long as they convert as well.

Or will the ordinariate be perfectly OK with unconverted Anglicans continuing to avail themselves of the Eucharist there?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Organ Builder
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Although I suspect anyone reading this thread is already reading the "Act of Love" thread, I'm going to link to this post by ken.

He is certainly a brave soul, and for all I know is just pulling these figures out of his ass but he IS the first I have seen willing to hazard a guess about just who might actually leave. If his guess is anywhere near correct, we probably don't need to worry about who gets the buildings.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Thurible
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I've no idea who will go or when. What is important, though, is that we all accept there will still be a sizable number in the CofE who cannot accept the admission of women to the episcopate and who are desperately praying that Synod will still agree to adequate provision.

For those who were slightly shocked when they walked past the Telegraph in newsagents yesterday, the Bishop of Chichester has clarified his position.

Thurible

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"I've been baptised not lobotomised."

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Father Gregory

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Rome doesn't ask that ANGLICAN priesthood be denied but rather that one should recognise that one's priesthood was not formally Catholic. The clarification is not, therefore, entirely clear.

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Organ Builder
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# 12478

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quote:
Originally posted by Father Gregory:
The clarification is not, therefore, entirely clear.

On a tangent, I think I might put this on a big card in my desk drawer and pull it out when needed. This phrase describes a lot of the "clarifications" I get.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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New Yorker
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But, Trisagion, isn't what I stated the reason some Anglican priests have been ordained conditionally by Rome?
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