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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Is anti semitism alive and well in the church?
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
I was reading The Times and Christpher Hitchen' review of the book: ''Globalising Hatred' by Dennis MacShane.
http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment/the_tls/article5186954.ece
I realise its a contentious subject, but, do people in the UK church still see the Jews as ''Christ Killers''? Can we (I say this as a Christian) really 'hate' Jewish people because of such faulty theology?
Should we be embracing the Jewish people or is the church still, in part in the UK, too anti-semitic?
Hitchens touches on the idea in the book that criticises the Jews for super human powers they do not have (eg the Israeli Mossad arranged for all the Jewish workers to not be in the twin towers on 9/11 - myth by the way).
I just wonder what shipmates think?
Saul of Littlehampton
[ 06. May 2010, 19:10: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
do people in the UK church still see the Jews as ''Christ Killers''?
I have never once heard such a thing said in my life, other than in a historical context. Its always "once upon a time Some Christians did these nasty things, but not any more, and not Our Sort of Christians, and it was a long time ago..." And its usually Roman Catholics who are blamed for it. British evangelicals perhaps have a tendency tend to see themselves as on the whole pro-Jewish, and locate anti-semitism amongst Catholics.
Certainly my own early experiences of evangelicalism, back in the late 1960s or the 1970s, were of a satyle of Christianity that tended to see Christianity as continuous with Judaism - there would be Bible studies on the exact layout of the Tabernacle and the Temple and their symbolic significance, and descriptions of Jewish festivals and rituals (showing us some matzos and other foods things to explain the Passover or whatever). A bit later there was a fashion for making songs out of Psalms or other bits of scripture with rather deliberately Jewish-sounding tunes. And later a fashion for Jewish styles of dancing - that was going on only about four or five years ago. And never any doubt as to the Jewishness of Jesus and the disciples, and the importance of seeing them in a Jewish context to be able to understand the New Testament.
So no, not anti-Semitic. If anything the people we said nasty things about were Roman Catholics and liberal Christians, not Jews. And one of the things we thought was bad about them was that they might be anti-Semitic - unlike us. All a bit self-congratulatory perhaps...
With my left-wing hat on, I got the same thing from a different angle. We, being left-wing, were by definition anti-racists. Racism was something those nasty conservatives did. The worst people there ever were were the Nazis and other fascists who of course persecuted Jews. So thought of ourselves as inherently on the same side as Jews in opposition anti-Semitism. And also on the same side as blacks in opposition to other kinds of racism, and the same side as women in opposition to sexism, and on the same saide as underpaid workers, and refugees, and oppressed people in general of course - which sort of works as a stance until you find oppressed people oppressing other people. On the other hand its a lot better than siding with the bosses and the rich and the powerful by default.
But, I have my own prejudices, and any political or religious idea that comes with the name "Hitchens" on the tin makes me want to reach for a gun...
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
is the church still, in part in the UK, too anti-semitic?
I don't think that any church I have ever been involved in has been at all anti-semitic. Some Christians view Jewish spirituality and scholarship as something we can learn from, others view it as completely irrelevant to us. I don't know any who are positively 'anti'.
It's much the same in the secular world - I work in London, as a lawyer, where Jews are heavily represented. No gentile I know thinks that matters in the slightest. None of my Jewish clients (including some very orthodox types) appear to have been worried about any anti-semitism from me or from the system generally.
It's a deeply unfashionable prejudice to hold, as far as I can see.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
Interesting replies.
2 things.
One is the idea of Jewish people as possessing 'super natural' powers eg the twin towers myth; Hitchens seems to have picked up on something here from the book, that is unlike other despised minorities; they (the jews) are endowed with tags of say, being all being rich and highly scheming/influential (when patently some maybe and many are not). So its like the opposite of despising minorities for the normal 'dirty, thick, unwashed, inferior', reasons.
Then of course is the Jewish - Israel link and of course thats complicated. The base line of reasonableness seems to be that Israel can be criticised (like any other nation eg say Italy and Berlesconi etc etc etc), but one supports Israel's right to exist - if one is reasonable. An anti semite would both vehemently criticise Israel and deny its right to exist.
I still hear anti jewish comments both in the church and in wider society. Not regularly but occasionally.
Just interested to hear what other folk think both in the UK and beyond.
Saul of Tarsus...whoops I mean Littlehampton ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
I realise its a contentious subject, but, do people in the UK church still see the Jews as ''Christ Killers''? Can we (I say this as a Christian) really 'hate' Jewish people because of such faulty theology?
Should we be embracing the Jewish people or is the church still, in part in the UK, too anti-semitic?
Its not something I've ever come across at all and I'm very sympathetic to Judaism. Maybe I'm just lucky. The only two places where I've encountered anything approaching anti-Semitism were on the hard left and amongst the Muslim community in my Irish hometown (to hair-raising degree!).
PS Though apparently there are still Jews in the UK who won't fill in their religion on the census.
[ 07. December 2009, 16:57: Message edited by: Yerevan ]
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
My background is secular Mittel-European Judaism (my parents being non-practising Jews who arrived in Britain just before the War and brought me up as an Anglican Christian). My Germanic name has sometimes led to me being "targeted" by the Hebrew Christian people, who have mostly seemed to me to be at the nuttier end of the Christian spectrum, I'm afraid.
I do not identify strongly with modern-day Israel - in fact, though seeing wrong on both sides, my sympathies are much more aligned with the injustices perpetrated on the Palestinians since 1948, and I mentioned this quite forcefully in yesterday's sermon. This has led to me being called "anti-semitic" at least once by someone who could not see that I could be sympathetic to Judaism while antipathetic to Israeli government policies.
It is my perception that Evangelical Christians have been uncritically pro-Israel in the past, seeing it as the fulfilment of OT prophecy, while more liberal Christians have taken the Arab position, as one of injustice seeking rectification. I don't know if Evangelical opinion has moved more recently, though.
Some years ago I was involved in leading an Ecumenical Maundy Thursday service with a Methodist colleague and he was absolutely adamant that we must remove from the service any hint that "the Jews" (any Jews!) had killed Jesus, so sensitive was he to the idea that Christians might be seen as anti-Semitic. I have not encountered anyone else with such strong sensitivities.
[ 07. December 2009, 17:09: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Certainly my own early experiences of evangelicalism, back in the late 1960s or the 1970s, were of a satyle of Christianity that tended to see Christianity as continuous with Judaism - there would be Bible studies on the exact layout of the Tabernacle and the Temple and their symbolic significance, and descriptions of Jewish festivals and rituals (showing us some matzos and other foods things to explain the Passover or whatever). A bit later there was a fashion for making songs out of Psalms or other bits of scripture with rather deliberately Jewish-sounding tunes. And later a fashion for Jewish styles of dancing - that was going on only about four or five years ago. And never any doubt as to the Jewishness of Jesus and the disciples, and the importance of seeing them in a Jewish context to be able to understand the New Testament.
Well, there's also what I've heard referred to as "philo-semitism" among some protestant fundamentalists, where one likes Jews, and celebrates the Jewish roots of Christianity, the catch being that to be truly Jewish, Jews must convert to Christianity, and the ones who don't will suffer some pretty severe agony after Armageddon.
You can see this view most starkly on display in some of the pro-Israeli Jack Chick comics, especially the ones from the 1970s. The Jews in Israel are often portrayed with some of the classic anti-semitic caricatures, but the ones who decide to convert are drawn in a more flattering manner.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yerevan:
PS Though apparently there are still Jews in the UK who won't fill in their religion on the census.
That may be because they are not religious. I know a lot of Secular Jews who never set foot inside a Synagogue.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Certainly my own early experiences of evangelicalism, back in the late 1960s or the 1970s, were of a satyle of Christianity that tended to see Christianity as continuous with Judaism - there would be Bible studies on the exact layout of the Tabernacle and the Temple and their symbolic significance, and descriptions of Jewish festivals and rituals (showing us some matzos and other foods things to explain the Passover or whatever). A bit later there was a fashion for making songs out of Psalms or other bits of scripture with rather deliberately Jewish-sounding tunes. And later a fashion for Jewish styles of dancing - that was going on only about four or five years ago. And never any doubt as to the Jewishness of Jesus and the disciples, and the importance of seeing them in a Jewish context to be able to understand the New Testament.
Well, there's also what I've heard referred to as "philo-semitism" among some protestant fundamentalists, where one likes Jews, and celebrates the Jewish roots of Christianity, the catch being that to be truly Jewish, Jews must convert to Christianity, and the ones who don't will suffer some pretty severe agony after Armageddon.
You can see this view most starkly on display in some of the pro-Israeli Jack Chick comics, especially the ones from the 1970s. The Jews in Israel are often portrayed with some of the classic anti-semitic caricatures, but the ones who decide to convert are drawn in a more flattering manner.
Its quite interesting that some Christians seem not to know, or maybe choose not to think about it, that much of the early church was in fact Jewish indeed St Paul most famously was trained as a PHarisee (I think?). Indeed, the archetypal Sunday School picture of Jesus on the flannelgraph was quite Nordic looking mainly (I thought he was anyway! and do YOU remember flannelgraphs too !!!! ).
I am of the support Israel, but support means that like any other state it makes serious whoppers from time to time, just like our beloved homeland (the UK) has on many occasions. Like I said I have heard ''anti jewish'' comments but more probably from ignorance than say virulent anti semitism that was evident in say middle europe in the 1930s. Many folk near where I live have seldom met anyone who is jewish; therefore some views are a bit ''off the wall''.
Like some have just said there are some really really nutty whacky pro Israel Christians around, who seem more jewish than...well the jewish people themselves. But many do really love Israel in a much more sane way; i came across a young woman recently who is not Jewish at all, but she is going to go and live in Israel and she really is into the culture/life/nation and everything and she is an evangelical christian.
Saul of Tarus...whoops...I keep doinf that...of Littlehampton!!!!
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
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daisymay
St Elmo's Fire
# 1480
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Posted
Similar to Baptist Trainfan, people in our family have had problems because of names, Sephardic Judaism, one lot who were probably forced several hundred years ago to become RC, but later chose Anglican, later still Baptist. The others, in Cape Town, still really Jewish, were badly prejudiced against, particularly when in the army as men were forced to be during thet time of anti-black South Africans, when racism was very strong "legally".
Both kinds of "church" have been prejudiced, just as England used to be but IMO is not so much atm.
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London
Flickr fotos
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Saul the Apostle:
Saul of Tarus...whoops...I keep doinf that...of Littlehampton!!!!
I think we've got the joke now
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
do YOU remember flannelgraphs too !!!! ).
Well, I actually had to do a google on that, and the images that came up, plus the wikipedia decription, seemed VAGUELY familiar. Not sure if they were a big part of my education back in the day.
Wiki said they were closely associated with evangelical Sunday Schools. I went to pretty secularized Catholic schools in Canada, so I don't know how prominent they would have been, if at all. Like I say, it rings a vague sort of bell.
quote:
Like I said I have heard ''anti jewish'' comments but more probably from ignorance than say virulent anti semitism that was evident in say middle europe in the 1930s. Many folk near where I live have seldom met anyone who is jewish; therefore some views are a bit ''off the wall''.
Totally unscientific on my part here, but I'd say that most of the anti-semitism I've encountered has been not directly religious, but more just along the lines of "Oh you know those Jews, they're tight-fisted, sharp businessmen etc". BUT I will also say that most of the time, these comments seemed to be coming from people who, while not practicing Christians, had Christianity in their immediate background. Like, they were lapsed Catholics who still identified culturally as Catholic, that sort of thing.
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I heard some overtly anti-Semitic messages straight from the pulpit, growing up in a small rural Lutheran Church Missouri Synod congregation -- things like how the Holocaust was God's punishment of the Jews for rejecting Jesus. (An idea I rejected as soon as I heard it -- just one of many coffin nails that sealed the end of my relationship with that particular church body while I was still in college.) Lutheranism's sad history of anti-Semitism makes me particularly conscious of anti-Semitic subtexts, so when I hear fundamentalists going on about their love of the Jewish people in one breath while in the next breath condemning them to hell if they don't get with the Christian program, my crap detector starts swinging into red alert territory.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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MerlintheMad
Shipmate
# 12279
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Posted
I can't speak for anti-semitism vis-a-vis being denominational. I also see it as a very despised prejudice, definitely not politically correct.
However, I wonder if we are not seeing a morphing of public opinion toward Israel's Jews, if not those Jews living amongst us. I don't see the State of Israel as a positive thing for the Jewish people lately. If things continue to develop as they are, and Islamist fundamentalism grows powerful enough in the world generally, I worry that Israel will become the rock upon which the whole Jewish "race" will be broken: this can only happen, of course, if the USA and other friends of Israel back off, out of fear, and let the Islamists attack Israel: no matter how strong Israel is, they cannot hope to survive a general world antipathy....
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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513
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Posted
On another forum, after describing how I had attended a Friday evening synagogue service with a friend when we were both visiting New York, an American evangelical or fundamentalist correspondent chastised me for not shunning a "false religion." My own impression is that anti-Semitism is not dead among them, but only dormant, just like anti-Catholicism, for reasons of expediency. Those with any pre-millennial notions at all are very happy with Jews as long as they are in Israel, because of a belief that this is a sign of the end times. As far as Roman Catholicism is concerned, they find common cause in politicizing a couple issues of "sexual morality" of which we are all aware.
The only time I ever heard the term "Christ-killing Jews" was in a speech from the leader of the U.S. Nazi party ca. 1969. Anti-Semitism can exist without going that far. It seems to me that if one denies the continuing validity of their religion, which our faith does not require us to do, then the essential ingredient of anti-Semitism is in place.
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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.
Posts: 7808 | From: West Chester PA | Registered: Feb 2004
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Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eliab:
It's much the same in the secular world - I work in London, as a lawyer, where Jews are heavily represented. No gentile I know thinks that matters in the slightest. None of my Jewish clients (including some very orthodox types) appear to have been worried about any anti-semitism from me or from the system generally.
It's a deeply unfashionable prejudice to hold, as far as I can see.
As even Nick Griffin seems to have decided, if Wikipedia's quoted speech to BNP activists is genuine: quote:
If we were to attack some other ethnic group—some people say we should attack the Jews... But ... we've got to get to power. And if that was an issue we chose to bang on about when the press don't talk about it ... the public would just think we were barking mad. They'd just think oh, you're attacking Jews just because you want to attack Jews. You're attacking this group of powerful Zionists just because you want to take poor Manny Cohen the tailor and shove him in a gas chamber. That's what the public would think. It wouldn't get us anywhere other than stepping backwards. It would lock us in a little box; the public would think "extremist crank lunatics, nothing to do with me." And we wouldn't get power.
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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)
Posts: 7247 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
I heard some overtly anti-Semitic messages straight from the pulpit, growing up in a small rural Lutheran Church Missouri Synod congregation -- things like how the Holocaust was God's punishment of the Jews for rejecting Jesus. (An idea I rejected as soon as I heard it -- just one of many coffin nails that sealed the end of my relationship with that particular church body while I was still in college.) Lutheranism's sad history of anti-Semitism makes me particularly conscious of anti-Semitic subtexts, so when I hear fundamentalists going on about their love of the Jewish people in one breath while in the next breath condemning them to hell if they don't get with the Christian program, my crap detector starts swinging into red alert territory.
The Lutheran aspect is interesting. Have Lutheran views moderated now I wonder?
Also, with the extreme philo-semitism, that too can be suffocating and done to purely confirm ones own views eg end time programme/last days etc.
I wonder if any Roman Catholics on SOF have had any experiences of anti semitism in their church? I understand that in certain parts of Europe (like Poland and maybe pther middle european nations) there was a very strong anti jewish feeling; based on the ''Christ killer'' libel.
I have certainly come across some evangelicals who were seriously barking (loco) over the jewish people and Israel, but equally there are some who have a genuine and sincere love for both individuals and also the whole race of Jewish people.
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
Well, there's also what I've heard referred to as "philo-semitism" among some protestant fundamentalists, where one likes Jews, and celebrates the Jewish roots of Christianity, the catch being that to be truly Jewish, Jews must convert to Christianity, and the ones who don't will suffer some pretty severe agony after Armageddon.
This is the issue isn't it?
i.e. is it anti-semitic, in and of itself, simply to proselytise Jews?
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multipara
Shipmate
# 2918
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Posted
RC speaking here:
No, not at all.
I grew up at a time when the horrors of the Holocaust were publicised for anyone who wanted to be made aware. I have a strong recollection of the trial of Eichmann when aged 9. William Shirer's work "The rise and Fall of the Third Reich" was on the history reading list when I left school in 1969. I might add that in Oz there was not a strong anti-Semitic bias; by the time I was a teenagers Oxz was accustomed to the "reffos" of the 1930s who got out before 1939. The big shock came 40 years later with the revelation that some of the D(isplaced ) P(ersons) post 1945 from Poland ,Ukraine and Hungary) were being hunted down by Wiesenthal and his mob.
Who has the answer? I don't know. Is the vileness of the current israeli management toward the Palestinians justified? I think not.
What I do think is that the (supposed;y) Joannine views of the like of Mel Gibson, SSPX and other neo-con nasties are not representative of average (lay) RCC viewpoints.
m
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quod scripsi, scripsi
Posts: 4985 | From: new south wales | Registered: Jun 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
... is it anti-semitic, in and of itself, simply to proselytise Jews?
Jesus and the apostles did. The first Christians were Jews. I can;t see how we could rule it out of order without turning our back on them.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Johnny S
Shipmate
# 12581
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Posted
Ssshhh Ken, people might hear you.
Posts: 6834 | From: London | Registered: Apr 2007
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Rosa Winkel
Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424
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Posted
I've never experienced a anti-semitism pseudo-theology in a church, and I'm someone whose ears are quite open to hearing anti-semitism.
I'm fortunate in having a former Priest who was strong on Judaism and educated his Parish to the faith.
The only anti-semitism I've heard by Christians is of a non-theology basis, where Jews are accused of doing their own 'final solution' with Palestinians. That's not been said from pulpits, though.
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The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
We have a Jewish Christian in our church. He is actually a shipmate, but hasn’t posted much! He maintains his Jewish identity (e.g. a yarmulke on his head most of the time) and works as an evangelist amongst Jews in the UK. He preached last Sunday morning, and is always entertaining and thought-provoking when he does so.
He did encounter anti-Semitism at a Christian festival, I think in this summer, being pointed at and overhearing some comments as to him having come to the ‘wrong place’, presuming by his appearance that he was ‘still’ Jewish (which he is of course) and therefore ‘not Christian’.
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
We have a Jewish Christian in our church. .
Have been in just about every church I've ever been associated with, including my current church. They persuaded me (by example, not argument) that the popular fake seder thing in Holy Week is not just rather naff and embarrassing (which I have thought ever since I first came across it decades ago) but also not a good idea. I think we should talk about and teach about Jewish festivals but not pretend to be what we're not.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
To charge in with my hob nail boots where you angels are fearing to tread...
I think we need to engage with the material in the New Testament that suggests that the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 was the judgement of God on the Jews for their rejection of Jesus, and that the calling down of a curse on themselves of the crowd at Jesus' trial did have real significance. BUT - and it is a vital point - that is no excuse for us to act in judgement against the Jews any more than we claim the right to act in judgement against any other sinner. The problem is that this is a hard line to hold, and it's easier to ignore the material, especially when the concept of God acting in judgement at all is deeply unfashionable, let alone in New Testament times...
At the risk of proof texting consider:
quote:
26As they led him away, they seized Simon from Cyrene, who was on his way in from the country, and put the cross on him and made him carry it behind Jesus. 27A large number of people followed him, including women who mourned and wailed for him. 28Jesus turned and said to them, "Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourselves and for your children. 29For the time will come when you will say, 'Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore and the breasts that never nursed!' 30Then
" 'they will say to the mountains, "Fall on us!"
and to the hills, "Cover us!" '[d] 31For if men do these things when the tree is green, what will happen when it is dry?"
Lk 23:26-31
and
quote:
Then Herod went from Judea to Caesarea and stayed there a while. 20He had been quarreling with the people of Tyre and Sidon; they now joined together and sought an audience with him. Having secured the support of Blastus, a trusted personal servant of the king, they asked for peace, because they depended on the king's country for their food supply.
21On the appointed day Herod, wearing his royal robes, sat on his throne and delivered a public address to the people. 22They shouted, "This is the voice of a god, not of a man." 23Immediately, because Herod did not give praise to God, an angel of the Lord struck him down, and he was eaten by worms and died.
Acts 12:19b-23
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
quote:
Have been in just about every church I've ever been associated with, including my current church. They persuaded me (by example, not argument) that the popular fake seder thing in Holy Week is not just rather naff and embarrassing (which I have thought ever since I first came across it decades ago) but also not a good idea. I think we should talk about and teach about Jewish festivals but not pretend to be what we're not.
I wonder who exactly finds it naff and embarrassing? In my experience, the church doesn't know what to do with Jews who happen to be Christians. They exist in an odd limbo, they are generally not encouraged to express their Jewishness (cos we aren't Jews you know). Many churches are so embarrassed by their Jewish heritage that they would rather see it presented like it's some sort of museum piece from an archaic past rather than develop it into a living tradition that feeds into the long and rich Christian heritage. Many Jews who are also Christians never tell their friends or congregations, and if they do, they are very likely to have an experience of being treated like they are a bit 'naff' and slightly odd (possibly confused about their true identity). So before you pronounce a judgement you might want to consider why you feel it is embarrassing and naff. I know there are very evangelical groups that do verge on this, but at least they don't pretend that the last 2000 years of bitter persecution, separation and divorce didn't happen, and we can all now get along fine so long as they don't start acting all Jewish.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
A couple of comments:
In response to Saul's question regarding Lutherans and anti-Semitism: The Lutheran World Federation, the German Evangelical Church, the ELCA's predecessor bodies and I think many other Lutheran church bodies have all, in the last 40 years or so, come out with public apologies for the anti-Semitic rantings of Luther's old age and for all the overt and covert anti-Semitism our tradition has tolerated or even encouraged over the centuries. The EKD has renounced trying to proselytize among the Jewish community. One of our ELCA universities here in the States is home to a well-regarded Institute of Jewish-Christian Relations. Our seminaries have also, in recent years, stepped up giving seminarians a better, more objective understanding of Jewish theology and practice, instead of intepreting it all through a Pauline lens.
That's the good news. The bad news is that I'm not quite sure how much of this has filtered down to the average pew-sitter in Middle America who tends to carry a lot of inherited cultural bigotry toward Jews. And the more conservative Lutheran church bodies in the U.S., like the one in which I was raised, seem to be loathe to get on the bandwagon of greater Lutheranism's repudiation of anti-Semitism, apparently if only because teh librul heretics started it. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif) And -- they truly believe that the Jews are going to hell if they do not convert, period, so I suppose they don't want to be seen as abandoning evangelism to the Jewish people.
What's interesting to me as a Lutheran Christian is how our enhanced understanding of/appreciation for Jewish theology is going to in the long run affect our centuries-old meme of the Law = onerous, oppressive barrier to relationship with God. Not that works-righteousness in our sense of the word doesn't rear its head in contemporary Judaism -- not too long ago I heard a very funny radio essay by a former yeshiva student about the mental gymnastics demanded of his teachers in learning how to say proper blessings over meals (class tests included a story problem of how to bless a casserole) -- but that's really not reflective of thoughtful Jewish understanding of the Law or of Jewish praxis.
As far as the "naffness" (love that term) of pseudo-seders and the like: I think a distinction needs to be made between Christians with a Jewish cultural heritage who want to maintain their family/cultural customs while embracing Christianity and non-Jewish Christians who want to better understand Judaism intellectually or want to somehow get closer to Jesus on an experiential level by sharing in what they think are practices he participated in. I understand the former; to the latter folks I'd gently suggest that instead of borrowing/bowlderizing Jewish rituals, they reach out, as faith communities and individuals, to their Jewish neighbors and learn about Judaism from them.
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Johnny S:
... is it anti-semitic, in and of itself, simply to proselytise Jews?
Jesus and the apostles did. The first Christians were Jews. I can;t see how we could rule it out of order without turning our back on them.
I would assume that Christians think Jews should be proselytized just the same as anyone else. Where it gets a bit dodgy is when some Christians(again, mostly your pre-millenial end-timers) think that there is an urgent obligation to target Jews specifically, as if Jews more than anyone else were duty-bound to accept Christ.
And of course, with these end-timers in on the act, it can likely be difficult for the saner elements of the Christian community to do outreach toward Jews. Since a lot of Jews might assume that any Christian trying to preach to them is doing so simply because he wants them all to either convert or gather in the Holy Land to be zapped by a giant thundebolt after the apocalypse.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
We have a Jewish Christian in our church. He is actually a shipmate, but hasn’t posted much! He maintains his Jewish identity (e.g. a yarmulke on his head most of the time) and works as an evangelist amongst Jews in the UK.
A friend of mine back in Canada is a "messianic Jew", which as far as I can tell, is basically just a bunch of gentile evangelical Christians who have styled themselves as Jews.
Obviously, people should be free to declare themselves anything that they want. But something does grate a little about the way he describes his group as being just another bunch of Jews, as legitimate as any other. For example, he'll say stuff like "Well, there are two types of Jews, the type that I am, and then the ones who haven't accepted Christ". As if you could open up the Encyclopedia Britannica and see Messianic Jews discussed in the paragraph immediately following Reform Judaism in the relevant entry.
That said, it's no more goofier than Wiccans who talk about how "we" were tortured and burned during the Inquisition, or, for that matter, Christians of any stripe who use the same pronoun when describing the victims of Nero's persecutions.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Oh and to be clear, my above post was not meant to imply the same thing about the Jewish Christian mentioned in the post I was replying to.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Most anti-semitism is unconscious in Christian churches here, like the assumptions behind hymn lyrics siuch as the Jews, 'deeply wailing shall the true messiah see' and ''Sometimes they strew his way....hosannas, then crucify....'
I can't agree that this is even unconscious anti-Semitism. If that's the case, then St. Paul, whose "heart's desire" was for Israel to be saved and who certainly believed that all people needed to believe in Christ for salvation - was an anti-Semite. And I don't think he was - even though many of his contemporaries presumably felt that he had become a traitor.
If we, as Christians, say that we understand Jesus to be the fulfilment of Jewish prophecy about the Messiah, and that we are saddened that many Jews do not accept him as such, does that immediately make us anti-Semitic? Leo's point of view seems to say that it does.
Christianity - whether we like it or not - is a conversionist and exclusivist religion at heart, and so similar sentiments will apply to adherents of all other religions. Does that make us anti-Muslim or anti-Hindu? I hope not, though I accept that some Christians do say crass, uninformed and highly objectionable comments about other faiths and their followers.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Saul the Apostle
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# 13808
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Posted
Lutheran Chik said: quote:
The Lutheran World Federation, the German Evangelical Church, the ELCA's predecessor bodies and I think many other Lutheran church bodies have all, in the last 40 years or so, come out with public apologies for the anti-Semitic rantings of Luther's old age and for all the overt and covert anti-Semitism our tradition has tolerated or even encouraged over the centuries. The EKD has renounced trying to proselytize among the Jewish community. One of our ELCA universities here in the States is home to a well-regarded Institute of Jewish-Christian Relations. Our seminaries have also, in recent years, stepped up giving seminarians a better, more objective understanding of Jewish theology and practice, instead of intepreting it all through a Pauline lens.
Strangely enough it sounds bit like Philip Yancey's journey too. He was born in the southern USA and was a young man in the civil rights era. He had an amazing journey starting of as a southern racist and made a number of startling discoveries in his journey about his own ''bigotedness'' (poor grammar!). A very fascinating journey (I recommend Yancy's books by the way).
Yancy's journey has a parallel with my own as I was a Liverpool Brethren and our church was just about opposed to most things that didn't square with a small minded narrow church. I viewed Catholics as the devil's spawn ( I hasten to add I now love them as dear brothers and sisters in Christ)............... but I understand bigotry and prejudice and the journey to ''unlearn'' things can take a lifetime.
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
As far as the "naffness" (love that term) of pseudo-seders and the like: I think a distinction needs to be made between Christians with a Jewish cultural heritage who want to maintain their family/cultural customs while embracing Christianity and non-Jewish Christians who want to better understand Judaism intellectually or want to somehow get closer to Jesus on an experiential level by sharing in what they think are practices he participated in.
Why?
I understand the point about practices being "naff and embarrassing" - but that's hardly an argument against them. Most social events are naff and embarrassing to someone.
I'm sure that there are Scots who would find in naff and embarrassing to hear me (an Englishman) sing "Auld Lang Syne" on New Year's Eve, and they are fully entitled to their view, but I don't see why that should bother me. I've never been to any Christian seder, but I can't see any reason to object to them. People who find them naff have a perfect remedy - they can stay away. I don't see that it's anti-semitic in the slightest.
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
Posts: 4619 | From: Hampton, Middlesex, UK | Registered: Mar 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Eliab, i think it has to do with a number of things:
The idea that it sits slightly uneasily with Christianity - partly because it also is still so deeply divorced from it's own roots.
Because in some places it is done badly, and can have negative overtones, or appear butchered to fit a theology it was never intended to convey
Because the self-righteous brigade see fit to be able to dictate what other christians can and can't do. The same self righteous brigade spread their new brand of anti-semtism wherever they go, labelling all Jewish Christians with the same stupid stereotypes of Messianic loons and odd ball people.
If Jewish Christians practice the law they are labelled as religious nuts. If they continue to practice their own traditions, they face insult (see Leo's post above), because sadly, some morons think it's always acceptable to get in the face of other people and tell them what to do, and no matter how many times you explain your position, they refuse to even have an inkling of understanding about where these people are coming from. But of course they are so well educated on the topic, they know better than Jewish Christians themselves ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
If I may barge in ...
Saul the Apostle says:
quote:
Then of course is the Jewish - Israel link and of course thats complicated. The base line of reasonableness seems to be that Israel can be criticised (like any other nation eg say Italy and Berlesconi etc etc etc), but one supports Israel's right to exist - if one is reasonable.
The trouble with that argument is that it begs the question about the right to exist of any nation state.
But in order to nail that one down, you need to be able to define "nation state", which means you need to be able to distinguish a "nation state" from other types of corporate entity, such as businesses, partnerships, government departments, charities, religions, social clubs, families, and street gangs.
Does North Korea have the Right to Exist? Does the United Kingdom have the Right to Exist? Does Enron have the Right to Exist? What about Goldman Sachs, or News International, or Scientology, the British National Party, the European Union, the United Nations, the Taliban, or al-Qaeda? Do all of these entities have an equivalent "right to exist"? If not, why not? And how exactly do you define a corporate entity's "right to exist"?
Since the concept of "right to existence" seems to be so loosely defined, it seems equally loose to use it to define whether or not someone is "anti-semitic".
Alogon says
quote:
Those with any pre-millennial notions at all are very happy with Jews as long as they are in Israel, because of a belief that this is a sign of the end times.
I'm sure you're aware that "pre-millenial" does not necessarily mean "Christian Zionist". Girolama Savonarola was a pre-tribulation pre-millenialist in 15th century Florence, but the Protestant Reformation hadn't even happened by then, never mind Zionism.
Baptist Trainfan says
quote:
If we, as Christians, say that we understand Jesus to be the fulfilment of Jewish prophecy about the Messiah, and that we are saddened that many Jews do not accept him as such, does that immediately make us anti-Semitic? Leo's point of view seems to say that it does.
I don't think it makes us anti-Semitic - however, I'd question whether it's technically accurate to describe the prophesies as "Jewish", since a number of the prophesies that Jesus is said to have fulfilled depended on the Hebrew Bible being translated into Greek - such as Isaiah 7:14 being about virgins.
The single most important prophesy that Jesus fulfilled, in my humble opinion, is Daniel 12:1-3 - which Jesus fulfilled in his resurrection. Every other prophesy that Jesus is supposed to have fulfilled is secondary to that, in my opinion. However, whilst the book of Daniel is considered "prophesy" in the Christian Old Testament, it's not considered prophesy in the Hebrew Bible.
If Christians and Jews saw Jewish prophesy in the same way, then modern Christian translations of the Old Testament would be identical to modern Jewish translations of the Hebrew Bible. But they're not. Even Calvinists and Protestants who reject the scriptural authority of the Apocrypha still use an Old Testament that's markedly different to a Jewish Hebrew Bible. So whilst it might not be anti-Semitic to ignore that fact, it does seem to reflect a lack of detailed understanding of rabbinical Jewish culture. So I can understand that it's something that Jews probably hear over and over again, and maybe some of them tire of it.
quote:
Christianity - whether we like it or not - is a conversionist and exclusivist religion at heart, and so similar sentiments will apply to adherents of all other religions. Does that make us anti-Muslim or anti-Hindu? I hope not, though I accept that some Christians do say crass, uninformed and highly objectionable comments about other faiths and their followers.
I suppose the question we really have to ask, then, is whether it bothers us or not to be considered anti-Semitic. I suspect that the charge of "anti-Semitism" is frequently flung in polemical arguments about which, when the dust has settled, no-one actually gives a toss. But that's a far cry from rounding people up and stuffing them into a gas chamber. So I think we need to try to keep it in perspective.
[ 08. December 2009, 17:57: Message edited by: Jessie Phillips ]
Posts: 2244 | From: Home counties, UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I wonder who exactly finds it naff and embarrassing?
Me. As I said.
quote:
In my experience, the church doesn't know what to do with Jews who happen to be Christians. They exist in an odd limbo, they are generally not encouraged to express their Jewishness (cos we aren't Jews you know).
On my experience the exact opposite is true. They end up getting treated as the authority on all things Jewish, including large chunks of the Bible.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I know there are very evangelical groups that do verge on this, but at least they don't pretend that the last 2000 years of bitter persecution, separation and divorce didn't happen, and we can all now get along fine so long as they don't start acting all Jewish.
Who is pretending all that?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Saul: And just to perhaps add some perspective to the p.o.v. of the church body in which I was raised: I don't think that their institutional (as opposed to personal) anti-Semitism is apparent to them. I think they're persons who understand themselves to have a "high" view of Scripture, who see the Jewish people being punished for various corporate sins over and over again in the Bible, and who think not only that the Holocaust was just one more historical manifestation of divine displeasure but that Christians who reject this interpretation must not embue Scripture with the same authority and respect that they themselves do.
That, again, is an institutional understanding. On the individual level -- my own Old Country relatives, and people in my childhood church, were quite happy to think of Jews as villainous Christ-killers and financial predators of "good Christians" who got what they deserved in various Inquisitions, pogroms and other persecutions.
And I'm sorry to note that I've even encountered that attitude in the ELCA. In my lay ministry training program -- ironically, during a session where we were tasked with creating and impromptu children's sermon, and given a text from John's Gospel to render into a multi-age kid-friendly message -- one of the older students responded to the question "What is a Jew?" (intended to remind us that you can't assume children or even adults in the congregation have a grasp on even common Bible-ese) with "Those were the people who killed Jesus." There was an audible collective gasp in the room, and the instructor had to stop everything and try to explain to this 70-year-old aspiring lay minister why what he said was so wrong. And the sad thing is...I don't think he got it, even after the explanation.
[ 08. December 2009, 18:11: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
... to the latter folks I'd gently suggest that instead of borrowing/bowlderizing Jewish rituals, they reach out, as faith communities and individuals, to their Jewish neighbors and learn about Judaism from them.
Exactly the point I was making. Why make a fake when the real thing is around?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
A friend of mine back in Canada is a "messianic Jew", which as far as I can tell, is basically just a bunch of gentile evangelical Christians who have styled themselves as Jews.
How odd. AIUI, a "messianic Jew" is a Jew who accepts that Jesus is the Messiah foretold in the OT but who does not want to abandon their Jewish identity. I have certainly never come across the phrase being used by some-one who was not born and brought up a Jew.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
A friend of mine back in Canada is a "messianic Jew", which as far as I can tell, is basically just a bunch of gentile evangelical Christians who have styled themselves as Jews.
How odd. AIUI, a "messianic Jew" is a Jew who accepts that Jesus is the Messiah foretold in the OT but who does not want to abandon their Jewish identity. I have certainly never come across the phrase being used by some-one who was not born and brought up a Jew.
Well, now that I think about it, I could have been wrong in implying that the "messianic Jews" are mostly born-gentile. I know for a fact that the person I'm thinking of is, though.
I'd always had the idea that the group "Jews For Jesus" was made up of Jews, born and raised, who had converted to Christianity, but that this wasn't the case with everyone calling themselves messianic Jews. Maybe I'll do some more research into this.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
Hmm. According to this article, there is a messianic congregation in Dayton, consisting of 30 members, only five of whom are of Jewish lineage. Not sure how this would compare to the movement as a whole.
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I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
Perhaps it's a pond difference?
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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Ender's Shadow
Shipmate
# 2272
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
AIUI, a "messianic Jew" is a Jew who accepts that Jesus is the Messiah foretold in the OT but who does not want to abandon their Jewish identity. I have certainly never come across the phrase being used by some-one who was not born and brought up a Jew.
Well, now that I think about it, I could have been wrong in implying that the "messianic Jews" are mostly born-gentile. I know for a fact that the person I'm thinking of is, though.
Are you sure? The correct definition of a Jew for this purpose is matrilinear descent from a Jewish woman. The rabbis have chosen to exclude Christians by definition - though not Buddhist, Atheist or Hindu Jews - on the grounds of our treatment of them. But for all you know, he may have a Jewish maternal grandmother...
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Test everything. Hold on to the good.
Please don't refer to me as 'Ender' - the whole point of Ender's Shadow is that he isn't Ender.
Posts: 5018 | From: Manchester, England | Registered: Feb 2002
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Saul the Apostle
Shipmate
# 13808
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Posted
Lutheran Chik said: quote:
On the individual level -- my own Old Country relatives, and people in my childhood church, were quite happy to think of Jews as villainous Christ-killers and financial predators of "good Christians" who got what they deserved in various Inquisitions, pogroms and other persecutions.
I think that sort of comment is what I was interested in when i first posted. Maybe the resonance from those attitudes still persists in certain corners of the church today?
Despite what some feel maybe prejudice is more prevalent than we care to admit; I know that from a personal view, I have wrestled with prejudices that i was given in my early days and I have had to actively try and turn my back on my prejudices.
The Messianic Jewish debate is I think another (equally valid) thread.
I understand that some Jewish people who come to know Jesus as the Messiah or Christ, choose to worship in a variet of ways, some may choose to keep some of the festivals etc etc. some may not. There are a mix of folk in Messianic Jewish circles, some are gentiles who are attracted to Judaism/ Israel etc etc etc.
Saul
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"I cannot forecast to you the action of Russia. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma; but perhaps there is a key. That key is Russian national interest."
Posts: 1772 | From: unsure | Registered: Jun 2008
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the Pookah
Shipmate
# 9186
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Posted
Being Jewish, I'd say I really feel it in Europe. Modern anti-semitism comes from the Left & is tied to being anti-Israel. I can't tell you how many articles I read that started with a critique of Israel (fine) and segued to 'the Jews.' The vibe I got was it's personal & it's a topic that never stops, with the teachers boycott etc, I think 'why do they
hate me?'
In Dublin I'd go to a local Libyan market, really nice people who knew we were Jewish & I'd read the hair-raising local Islamic paper filled with hate, stereotypes etc. No one did anything.My Italian Jewish friend who lives in Budapest is worried too ; the Hungarian Right.
I don't find any anti-semitism from churches, I have lots of Christian friends, but I find the Left in the Church have the same endless obsession.
the Pookah
Posts: 926 | From: the Northern colonies | Registered: Mar 2005
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by Yerevan:
PS Though apparently there are still Jews in the UK who won't fill in their religion on the census.
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That may be because they are not religious. I know a lot of Secular Jews who never set foot inside a Synagogue.
In most cases, it's about the potential of the records to be used against the population. In countries occupied by the Nazis in WWII, those who had "good" records of their population had much higher death rates of Jewish (and others that the Nazis didn't like) people than those whose records were chaotic or non-existant. IN some countries (maybe Holland? I can't remember now) the Nazis rocked up to city Hall and the records told them whose doors to bash down.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
quote:
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Originally posted by Yerevan:
PS Though apparently there are still Jews in the UK who won't fill in their religion on the census.
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That may be because they are not religious. I know a lot of Secular Jews who never set foot inside a Synagogue.
According to a Jewish friend of mine its fear of being identified as Jewish on official records....a little paranoid I know, but understandable given the history.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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Yerevan
Shipmate
# 10383
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Posted
quote:
I'd add the term 'OLD Testament'.
Its more complicated then that. The 'Old Testament' thing just reflects the fact that Judaism and Christianity aren't in agreement on some fairly important issues. Rightly or wrongly Christians believe that Jesus is the Jewish messiah. Rightly or wrongly Jews believe that he isn't. There's an inevitable conflict of opinion there and it isn't anti-Semitic or anti-Christian to come down on one side or the other.
Posts: 3758 | From: In the middle | Registered: Sep 2005
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