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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Veiled in flesh the Godhead see
churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
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That line on its own does give me pause, but even on its own it's no more heretical IMO than some verses of Scripture might seem if you isolate them too. Like others have said above, it's reminiscent of Hebrews, and also of many OT references to God's glory having to be veiled for us (in the Temple, or on Moses' face, e.g.).

What I don't like in that hymn - well, to be fair, it's in a recent revision - is the gender-inclusive change from
quote:
Born to raise the sons of earth
to
quote:
Born to raise us from the earth
which is decidedly not a gender-neutral equivalent. The line as Wesley wrote it (I assume he wrote all the verses) is not up to our current standards of inclusivity, but it is better theology.

I'm pretty sure we've discussed that on these boards last year or some previous year...

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I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

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seasick

...over the edge
# 48

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John Wesley on the alteration of hymns (again with language of his time):
quote:
Many gentlemen have done my brother and me (though without naming us) the honour to reprint many of our hymns. Now they are perfectly welcome so to do, provided they print them just as they are. But I desire they would not attempt to mend them ; for they really are not able. None of them is able to mend either the sense or the verse. Therefore, I must beg of them one of these two favours : either to let them stand just as they are, to take them for better for worse ; or to add the true reading in the margin, or at the bottom of the page ; that we may no longer be accountable either for the nonsense or for the doggerel of other men.


--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
# 5557

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[Cool] Thanks for that!

I think it's good counsel for any use of older literature - hymns are, at least on one level, poems, and so literature.

Has any survey or study shown that women/girls singing this song think, "Oh, this doesn't apply to me"? Are we thought to be that stupid?

--------------------
I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

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daronmedway
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Do these verses from Mark 15 help?

quote:
37And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the ghost.

38And the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom. 39And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.

Could it be that Wesley is suggesting that the veil in the temple being torn is about the identity of the man Jesus as divine being revealed?

Could there even be eucharistic overtones here? Elsewhere Jesus' is revealed in the breaking of bread/flesh (i.e. tearing of the veil?)?

[ 22. December 2009, 09:09: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]

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Thurible
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# 3206

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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
John Wesley on the alteration of hymns (again with language of his time):
quote:
Many gentlemen have done my brother and me (though without naming us) the honour to reprint many of our hymns. Now they are perfectly welcome so to do, provided they print them just as they are. But I desire they would not attempt to mend them ; for they really are not able. None of them is able to mend either the sense or the verse. Therefore, I must beg of them one of these two favours : either to let them stand just as they are, to take them for better for worse ; or to add the true reading in the margin, or at the bottom of the page ; that we may no longer be accountable either for the nonsense or for the doggerel of other men.

But I don't want to sing "Hark, how all the welkin rings!" (Although, thinking about it, they might have changed it themselves.)

Thurible

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3M Matt
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# 1675

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If "veiled in flesh the godhead see" is any kind of heresy, isn't it possibly modalism?

I assume it would be more accurate to say "veiled in flesh the 2nd person of the Trinity see.."

Godhead implies to me (perhaps incorrectly) the whole trinity "veiled in flesh"..which, if I'm not getting my heresys mixed up..is modalism

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by 3M Matt:
If "veiled in flesh the godhead see" is any kind of heresy, isn't it possibly modalism?

I assume it would be more accurate to say "veiled in flesh the 2nd person of the Trinity see.."

Godhead implies to me (perhaps incorrectly) the whole trinity "veiled in flesh"..which, if I'm not getting my heresys mixed up..is modalism

I think you are getting them mixed up (a state that is almost impossible to avoid ISTM). Modalism is the heresy to which I tend, and essentially sees the three persons of the trinity as three manifetations of the one God. They are, as it were, three "faces" of the divine, rather than three distinct "persons" in modalism. If you can claim with a straight face to be both a monotheist and a Christian, you have probably fallen into the modalist heresy...

--Tom Clune

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This space left blank intentionally.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
If you can claim with a straight face to be both a monotheist and a Christian, you have probably fallen into the modalist heresy...

Um, no, then you're a Trinitarian.

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tclune
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
If you can claim with a straight face to be both a monotheist and a Christian, you have probably fallen into the modalist heresy...

Um, no, then you're a Trinitarian.
Ah, but did you type that with a straight face? [Biased]

--Tom Clune

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This space left blank intentionally.

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mousethief

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[Big Grin]

(actually, yes)

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Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014

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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
John Wesley on the alteration of hymns (again with language of his time):
quote:
Many gentlemen have done my brother and me (though without naming us) the honour to reprint many of our hymns. Now they are perfectly welcome so to do, provided they print them just as they are. But I desire they would not attempt to mend them ; for they really are not able. None of them is able to mend either the sense or the verse. Therefore, I must beg of them one of these two favours : either to let them stand just as they are, to take them for better for worse ; or to add the true reading in the margin, or at the bottom of the page ; that we may no longer be accountable either for the nonsense or for the doggerel of other men.

Can you get me hte source for that q

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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k-mann
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# 8490

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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
If you can claim with a straight face to be both a monotheist and a Christian, you have probably fallen into the modalist heresy...

Monotheism isn't reducible to monadism.

--------------------
"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich

Katolikken

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English Ploughboy.
Ship's tiller
# 4205

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Our biology teacher told us that "veiled in flesh" refered to the fact that babies are sometimes born with the membranes of the womb acually wrapped around their head like a veil. This is obviously dangerous as the membranes have to be cleared before the baby can breath.
Wesley may have witnessed a birth like this.
This then makes the carol very earthy and orthodox with the son of God born into a bloody, messy, precarious humanity.

--------------------
Christmas: celebration of un-created love let loose upon a needy world,

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seasick

...over the edge
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quote:
Bullfrog. said:
Can you get me hte source for that q

It's from the Preface to the 1780 hymnbook.

--------------------
We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Well, isn't it simply the case that Jesus' Godhead (Divinity / Divine nature) was "veiled", in the meaning of "somewhat hidden, recognizable only in the outlines", by His human nature? If the unveiled Logos had walked Palestine, how could anyone not have recognized Him as Divine? A supernova of eternal light would have bent every knee for sure... Yet many people did definitely not recognize Jesus as God. Jesus the man shall be transfigured to us when we do not see dimly anymore, when the Divine brightness does not turn us blind like it did a certain traveler on the road to Damascus.

Perhaps that's a nice definition of what human nature shall become: something that can let the Divine Light shine forth unimpeded (in Christ), and something that can stand seeing this Light (in the saints). But human nature sure veiled Divine nature in 1stC Palestine. I don't think that this is contrary to orthodox dogma. It does not deny that Christ is true God and true man in one Person. Rather it affirms that He had "two natures without confusion, change, division, or separation. The distinction between the natures was never abolished by their union", hence with mere physical eyes God was not to be seen in Jesus, one had to acquire eyes of faith.

Bravo!. You always write so cogently.

I like the line,
"Veiled in flesh the Godhead see," because of the literary qualities of of antithesis and paradox that I think are profound. Knowing exactly what Wesley thought from other sources helps the theology.

The next line,
"Hail the incarnate Deity," kind of clears up the ambiguity if there was any since incarnate clearly implies humanity doesn't it?

However, what about the first line of the carol.
"Hark the herald angels sing." Does it say anywhere that they sang? Sorry for the tangent.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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daronmedway
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# 3012

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Luke 2:14
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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Luke 2:14

Sings and says are different.
What about:

"Hark the herald angels say
Glory to the new born day?"

Not the same ring really. He needed a word to rhyme with king.

I actually can't recall a Biblical singing angel can you?

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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<door> knock knock

<Mary> Who's there please?

<Gabriel> Singing Angelgram.

<Mary> Come in!

<Gabriel> Hail Mary full of grace
Most blessed chick in time and space
God is mighty pleased with you
So here is what He's going to do
(etc)

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Luke 2:14

Sings and says are different.
What about:

"Hark the herald angels say
Glory to the new born day?"

Not the same ring really. He needed a word to rhyme with king.

I actually can't recall a Biblical singing angel can you?

I think its the 'praising God' bit that get interpreted as singing.
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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Luke 2:14

Sings and says are different.
What about:

"Hark the herald angels say
Glory to the new born day?"

Not the same ring really. He needed a word to rhyme with king.

I actually can't recall a Biblical singing angel can you?

Revelation 5:13 says that every creature in heaven sang. Presumably that includes angels.
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