Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by LQ:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
It's a cause of grief not gain.

---

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Conservatives don't want to fight to keep gay couples in other churches from being blessed, but the poor souls battle on selflessly anyway? If they're not gaining anything, then why not just leave gay people be, which is all we're asking for? Who had a gun to Geoff Chapman's head?

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Custard:
a refusal on the grounds of practice is logically distinct from one on the grounds of desire, which is what orientation is about.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoannaP:


Grammatica,

To repeat Ken's question, to which you have not yet responded:

quote:

---

Who is "you" here?

---

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:

quote:

---

Originally posted by LQ:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Spawn:
It's a cause of grief not gain.

---

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. Conservatives don't want to fight to keep gay couples in other churches from being blessed, but the poor souls battle on selflessly anyway? If they're not gaining anything, then why not just leave gay people be, which is all we're asking for? Who had a gun to Geoff Chapman's head?

---

This is a pretty stupid post by any standards. First, I'm told that my theological objections are all about power, and now I have this telling me that what other Anglicans do/believe/say is none of my concern.

(BTW, who is Geoff Chapman anyway?)

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by LQ:
Well, that would be pretty stupid, if I had said that. I await a response to my actual post.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alogon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Custard:
a refusal on the grounds of practice is logically distinct from one on the grounds of desire, which is what orientation is about.

---

But we don't know her practice, do we? For that matter, how much do we know of anyone else's practice?

Furthermore, I don't recall what the Bible has to say against Lesbian practice. Could you refresh my memory?

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by ianjmatt:
Grammatica. I don't think it is feigning ignorance. It is a genuine question. Various posters have shown the political diversity of evanglical Anglicanism in England, and that trying to line things up on a US-centric politico-religious matrix just doesn't work.

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Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoannaP:

Thank you. At that point Grammatica had not made it clear that she(?) was only discussing evangelical Anglicanism in England. In the paragraphs that I quoted, she appeared from context to be referring to the whole CofE but what she said bore no relationship to my experience as a member of the church for the last 30+ years. Hence, as you said, I was not feigning ignorance; I was genuinely bemused.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grammatica:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoannaP:

Thank you. At that point Grammatica had not made it clear that she(?) was only discussing evangelical Anglicanism in England. In the paragraphs that I quoted, she appeared from context to be referring to the whole CofE but what she said bore no relationship to my experience as a member of the church for the last 30+ years. Hence, as you said, I was not feigning ignorance; I was genuinely bemused.

---

I am glad to hear that there are some members of the Church of England who don't want to break Communion with TEC.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by ianjmatt:
As another example from the other side, you will find rural parishes in England who will be politically VERY conservative (hunt ball, countryside alliance etc) but who will embrace women or gay clergy as their parish priest as well.

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grammatica:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoannaP:


Grammatica,

To repeat Ken's question, to which you have not yet responded:

quote:

---

Who is "you" here?

---

---

When someone feigns ignorance to score a rhetorical point, I do not feel compelled to answer.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grammatica:
Whatever their views on the environment may be, British Evangelicals are in tight alliance with the US Religious Right in their war against TEC.

---

And the moon is made of green cheese. There is something almost obtuse about this. Almost a refusal to imagine that anyone can really not be American at heart. As if the whole rest of the world was just the people who live in your town pretending to be different for some strange reason. So the only way to relate to them is to fit them into categories that you made from up in America.

quote:

---

My question might be: What do British Evangelicals hope to gain in this situation?

---

quote:

---

I assume their goal throughout has been to consolidate their control of the Church of England.

---

What control of the Church of England? How can they - we - "consolidate" what we don't have?

At the most three or four of the bishops - I mean of all the bishops, suffragans as well as diocesans - are out and proud theologically conservative evangelicals of the sort who might associate with the "Reform" pressure group in England or with the Diocese of Sydney and GAFCON abroad. In terms of numbers in pews the "Charismatic Evangelicals" are perhaps a larger group, and everyone always suggests that they are growing as a proportion of the CofE if not in absolute numbers, but they too have few bishops or other senior clergy. Yes, and some of them are rather obsessed by homosexuality as well. And no, I don't understand why.

As a proportion of the number of worshippers in the COfE such people are unlikely to be more than about ten to twenty percent of the whole, and I suspect probably much less. It is hard to be at all sure because of course there is no such thing as a census of churchmanship and many evangelicals attend non-evangelical churches and vice-versa (which from the comments I've seen here might be another difference between England and the USA). Although evangelical churches are disproportionately likely to be well-attended, so the ratio of clergy to lay people is probably less than in other kinds of parish, few of these churches are large by US standards - the average number of worshippers in evangelical parishes is nearer to fifty then a hundred, so that isn't the main reason for the relative lack of evangelicals in Synod or among the bishops.

Another ten percent of the CoE might be considered to be among the so-called "Open Evangelicals" but they mostly have no desire to fall out of communion with the Americans (any more than most of them want to see Forward in Faith and so on leave the CofE) and they really don't fit your Americanised description of evangelicals at all. They are rather better represented among the Bishops and on Synod.

But all put together all those evangelicals are perhaps a third of the Sunday attendance of the CofE (give or take ten percent) and maybe a fifth of its bishops and General Synod members. And those bishops and so on are disproportionately from the "open" end of things, least likely to side with GAFCON and friends. That is influence but it is a long way from control. The largest party in both General Synod and the House of Bishops is almost certainly what you might call "liberal catholic" though they are far from a majority. No one grouping in the CofE is a majority, and none is likely to be in the near future.

quote:

---

To engineer the expulsion of the liberal American church from the Communion in 2003 might have been just the "shock and awe" needed to force a complete collapse of liberals in the C of E.

---

That isn't even wrong.

To be honest, just as in every other country, most people here don't pay that much attention to what goes on in other countries. If every single theologically conservative iAnglian in America tossed a coin tomorrow and went off to join either the Roman Catholics or the Baptists depending on the way it came up, and if the remaining 100% theologically liberal churches pulled up stumps and declared themselves to be mo longer Anglicans an no longer in communion with Canterbury, I doubt if it would have any noticeable effect on the internal politicking of the Church of England at all - or any other Anglican body outside the Americas.

And what this all has got to do with either the elections of bishops in California, or proposed bad laws in Uganda, I don't know.

Oh, and what Gildas said about Rowan Williams and the Ugandan thing.

On a better note, Rick Warren, who I suppose most definitely is a right-wing American evangelical (well, he is an evangelical, he is American, and he is a hell of a lot more right wing than me or most people I know) seems to have come out on the side of the angels on the Ugandan law, and a copy of his statement is linked to here with approval on Maggi Dawn's very wonderful blog - and she is about as far from being a right-wing homophobic bigot as anyone you could imagine.

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Carys:
I can see where the accusations of it all being about power come from too though. And in the Ugandan situation there seems to be a streak of anti-colonialism.

The conservatives accuse the liberals in American of changing (their reading of) to suit their culture, but as far as I can tell much of the debate in African is strongly influenced by cultural and political issues there.

This is why I wish we could listen to each rather than just claiming victim status for our side.

Carys

---

Look, I don't think the Africans can be given a pass on the commission of atrocities just because they were under colonial rule 50 or 60 years ago. In Rwanda Catholic priests and the members of religious orders participated actively in the genocide. Should they be given tea and sympathy because the unpleasantness there was after all an expression of inter-tribal and cultural issue that we Europeans can't appreciate? Give me a fucking break!

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grammatica:
All right, then, I have another question: Why the demand that TEC cease to ordain and/or defrock existing gay clergy, and why the threat to break communion with us if we don't (see the Archbishop of Canterbury's Advent Letter this year), if you in the C of E cheerfully accept them?

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by FreeJack:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grammatica:
All right, then, I have another question: Why the demand that TEC cease to ordain and/or defrock existing gay clergy, and why the threat to break communion with us if we don't (see the Archbishop of Canterbury's Advent Letter this year), if you in the C of E cheerfully accept them?

---

This comes down to orientation and celibacy again. The CofE welcomes gay priests who have given an undertaking of celibacy to their bishop.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by ianjmatt:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Alogon:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Custard:
a refusal on the grounds of practice is logically distinct from one on the grounds of desire, which is what orientation is about.

---

But we don't know her practice, do we? For that matter, how much do we know of anyone else's practice?

Furthermore, I don't recall what the Bible has to say against Lesbian practice. Could you refresh my memory?

---

Sorry - dead horse territory.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grammatica:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoannaP:

Thank you. At that point Grammatica had not made it clear that she(?) was only discussing evangelical Anglicanism in England. In the paragraphs that I quoted, she appeared from context to be referring to the whole CofE but what she said bore no relationship to my experience as a member of the church for the last 30+ years. Hence, as you said, I was not feigning ignorance; I was genuinely bemused.

---

I am glad to hear that there are some members of the Church of England who don't want to break Communion with TEC.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:
And I made this thread here to try to divert some of the off-topic stuff (to which I have been a major contributor)that's really about the CoE and not the subject of this thread.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

So really please, stop trying to excuse or mitigate this sort of behaviour in Uganda and Nigeria, on the grounds that some unsavoury politicians there might have been gay.

---

Where did I say that?

And re your quotes, I am well aware of the recrudescence of homophobia down through the ages. I am also aware of the fact of the bullying, exclusion and violence, both physical and verbal, that takes place at many other levels too, and of course for many other reasons too.

The simple purpose of my post was to point out the recent church background to the current local issues. In fact I went even further back than that to events that I have seen regularly cited by Ugandans and Nigerians. I pointed out that this was not a full analysis, and so far as cultural intrusions are concerned I made no claims to have identified "who started this". My analysis is tailored to my (perhaps incorrectly) perceived readership of this thread, which I had hoped was a matter of courtesy. I also admitted that I honestly don't have a clue about how to tackle Nigeria, and I am still awaiting any suggestions.

Then you post that. Why? You completely fail to address the fact that the situation we now have on the ground deals with real people and their real situations. No doubt they are screwed up in assorted ways just like you and me. The best you can offer is trumpeting noises from Lambeth.

Any attempt to address the developing situation in Uganda has to deal with real Ugandans. You appear to missed the irony in posting evidence of more homophobia in Uganda whilst not noticing how much that reinforces the danger of ignoring local prejudices. Any programme to tackle this issue that is not based on current facts on the ground (however distasteful you or I may find them) is doomed from the start. We have tried the "tell the benighted locals" approach. It failed, and now you are proposing more of the same.

No doubt Gildas's somewhat tongue-in-cheek approach - or something like it - is needed in the short term, and all the likelihood is that something along those lines is on the go. But let's not fool ourselves that will be anything other than a short term palliative. The longer term issue needs addressing through education and then the need to meet and interact with real Ugandan gays. Not some hellbound subspecies, nor some artificially pumped special cause, but real human beings, just like them.

I really don't mind if you disagree with me. If you have a better proposal then let's hear it, and I shall cheerfully accept it is the better way if so persuaded. Right now what else is on offer is what got us to where we are. If that does not register, then the only possible conclusion that can be drawn is that what matters is demonstrating 21st century western social in-group rectitude, and if bloody foreigners (such as gay Ugandans) interfere with that, then so what?

I would, however, hope that you could come up with a better way that addresses the issues rather than received wisdom.

--------------------
Anglo-Cthulhic

Posted                       

quote:

---

I think there's been so much off-topic stuff on this thread because in truth there isn't much to say about the OP. In broad terms we all know how it will likely play out and everyone's positions are pretty hardened, so there's really not much to say.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Bzzzt. I think you meant to say supported slavery and had slaves of their own. That's a pretty big reason to overthrow the traditional stance on slavery. I could go on with the analogy, but that's DH territory. You get the picture.

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Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by LQ:
I was using "not bothered" to mean "in favour of", which is evidently the meaning you were using when describing liberals as "not bothered" by gay bishops. (If not, then I'm not sure what your comment was supposed to mean. That liberals are simply uninterested in the opinions of other Christians?)

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
I think there's a little of wink wink nod nod that goes on between many of the bishops and their clergy in the CoE, because there are after all same-sex clergy couples or clergy in same sex relationships who are apparently expected to pretend to be in relationships devoid of sexual intimacy. Hell, as I said before I know a deacon in one such relationship and he'll be a priest in a few months time, as is his civil partner. The whole notion that such couples are to remain sexually continent and are actually doing so is simply absurb and laughable. I'm sure a few of the bishops take it seriously but I can't believe that most of them are so barmy.

(In response to FreeJack and in reference to the situation in the CoE)

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
L.Sv.K said

quote:

---

I think there's been so much off-topic stuff on this thread because in truth there isn't much to say about the OP. In broad terms we all know how it will likely play out and everyone's positions are pretty hardened, so there's really not much to say.

---

I guess I said something approximating to that upthread, so in a sense I agree. But the problem remains the monumental degree of misunderstanding that exists. And to be honest, I still don't understand why you went apeshit on the first few pages. I hope you won't mind my asking that, now you have regained your composure, because understanding the evident frustration might help.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grammatica:
Whatever their views on the environment may be, British Evangelicals are in tight alliance with the US Religious Right in their war against TEC.

---

And the moon is made of green cheese.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grammatica:

Or are you saying that no one from Anglican Mainstream or Reform has ever spoken to Robert Duncan or David Anderson? Never ever ever? Not even at Dromantine?

---

quote:

---

Now please don't tell me again about your sterling record on global warming; that's a red herring.

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by ken:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grammatica:

Or are you saying that no one from Anglican Mainstream or Reform has ever spoken to Robert Duncan or David Anderson? Never ever ever? Not even at Dromantine?

---

I haven't got the faintest. And I don't even know who Robert Duncan and David Anderson are, and don't much care right now. But what I am saying is that most Anglican evangelicals here are not affiliated with either "Anglican Mainstream" or "Reform". And also that the minority who are in those organisations have a wide variety of political positions, many of them quite unlike your caricature of the "religious right".

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
I had to look up David Anderson, and I write as someone who IRL was booted out of my parish when the anti-gay evans took it over & separated from the Diocese of Ottawa. That some of the English evans had not heard of him is no surprise to me.

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Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
[QUOTE]No one from Nigeria has, as far as I'm aware, ever posted on these boards and I think any 'Sydney Anglican' from Sydney would steer well clear of this thread.

---

Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Choirboy:
I'll grant Dave Anderson may be a bit obscure, but surely the former TEC bishop of Pittsburgh, Bob Duncan, should be at least dimly recognizable to anyone paying even cursory attention. He has certainly chased after enough media to deserve this small courtesy.

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Posted                      

quote:

---

And I don't even know who Robert Duncan and David Anderson are, and don't much care right now

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Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by Robert Armin:

quote:

---

And I don't even know who Robert Duncan and David Anderson are, and don't much care right now

---

Most people in the UK will never have heard of these people, but the response does seem a little disingenuous coming from Ken, the Ship's master of Google skills. Ken, wouldn't your normal response be to have done a quick search for both of them and then informed us about the salient details of their lives? Esoterica is normally your stamping ground.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grammatica:

quote:

---

Originally posted by JoannaP:

Thank you. At that point Grammatica had not made it clear that she(?) was only discussing evangelical Anglicanism in England. In the paragraphs that I quoted, she appeared from context to be referring to the whole CofE but what she said bore no relationship to my experience as a member of the church for the last 30+ years. Hence, as you said, I was not feigning ignorance; I was genuinely bemused.

---

I am glad to hear that there are some members of the Church of England who don't want to break Communion with TEC.

---

Indeed - there will a come a time, soon, when I shall want you to send us flying bishops.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
L.Sv.K said

quote:

---

I think there's been so much off-topic stuff on this thread because in truth there isn't much to say about the OP. In broad terms we all know how it will likely play out and everyone's positions are pretty hardened, so there's really not much to say.

---

I guess I said something approximating to that upthread, so in a sense I agree. But the problem remains the monumental degree of misunderstanding that exists. And to be honest, I still don't understand why you went apeshit on the first few pages. I hope you won't mind my asking that, now you have regained your composure, because understanding the evident frustration might help.

---

I'm tired of the ABC's unhelpful interventions, fatherly advice, whatever. Like most Americans I'm sick of the condemnation of a number of provinces who I honestly don't see having the slightest claim to moral superiority - indeed quite the opposite - and I'm tired of the travails within our own province. I'd like those outside TEC to leave us to our own processes...

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Call me Numpty:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Indeed - there will a come a time, soon, when I shall want you to send us flying bishops.

---

Hasten the day.

---

Do you mean what I take you to mean, that you will be glad to see the break-up of the Church of England? Or that the rump of self-righteous fundamentalists pretends that it is the real C of E?

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Angloid:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Call me Numpty:

quote:

---

Originally posted by leo:
Indeed - there will a come a time, soon, when I shall want you to send us flying bishops.

---

Hasten the day.

---

Do you mean what I take you to mean, that you will be glad to see the break-up of the Church of England? Or that the rump of self-righteous fundamentalists pretends that it is the real C of E?

---

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Grammatica:
This just in: Verdant cheddar spotted in the Sea of Tranquility.

If that doesn't convince, try this bit of moss-colored mozzarella, courtest of Fr. Kapya Kaoma.

These articles will give you a full and fair picture of the organizations with which British Evangelicals are allied.

Or are you saying that no one from Anglican Mainstream or Reform has ever spoken to Robert Duncan or David Anderson? Never ever ever? Not even at Dromantine?

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by Gildas:
I think that the 39 Articles bear witness to the Christian faith. I also think that the Catechism of the Catholic Church bears witness to the Christian faith, as does the Westminster Confession, +Kallistos' handy Vade Mecum on the Orthodox Church and the Methodist Worship Book.

Bearing witness to the Christian faith need not entailing being absolutely correct about everything.

---

Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by PataLeBon:
...it's simply too painful and upsetting to continue to turn up to a dinner where it seems no one listens, cares to listen, and they are always yelled at.

---

quote:

---

TEC can take care of itself without ABC's help. So they've left the house, decided upon a very nice apartment, and are getting about doing what they believe the Holy Spirit has called them to do.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by PataLeBon:
...it's simply too painful and upsetting to continue to turn up to a dinner where it seems no one listens, cares to listen, and they are always yelled at.

---

quote:

---

I'm sure that this is distressing for some family members for there to be an empty seat, and a happy time for some who are glad that they are gone. It's mixed for TEC also, but it may simply be time.

---

Let the good times roll!

[ 11. December 2009, 11:07: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Numpty - I have to say that - along with the earlier "red mist" ones - was amongst the least helpful offerings here.

---