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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Purgatory: Second openly gay bishop in ECUSA (very likely)
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Mary Glasspool has stated the following reason why she should be consecrated bishop: "Simply... it's time."
Now, that - to me - sounds like a direct reference to her sexual orientation. I'd be interested to know if I should be reading it another way. For example, is it a reference to her gender, or perhaps politics, or her churchmanship. I think she is saying that her consecration should go forward on the basis that it's time that there was a lesbian bishop. Bizarre.
I'm searching my ordinal and - quite honestly - I can't find that particular reason anywhere. Not surprising really.
[ 08. December 2009, 14:34: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
aumbrey, we have 110 dioceses. The four that left we cases that amounted to ecclesiastical coup d'etat after their renegade bishops gradually packed the ranks of their clergy and lay activitists with sycophants. Fort Worth is such a good example, where the first bishop seems to have been in the process of losing his mind and totally changing what had always been his character at the time he took over the diocese just shy of his retirement, followed by launching a schismatic church. Then the unfortunate diocese elected a very confused and unhappy man who couldn't decide if he wanted to be a bishop of the Episcopal Church or a Roman Catholic -- clearly a disturbed and dysfunctional guy who didn't last long. Then they got the terribly narcissistic Jack Iker, who ultimately manipulated the diocese to secede, but couldn't even get all of the people and parishes to come along. As elsewhere, he lost some of his most important parishes and others were split, with a "rump" that stayed in TEC. As the legal processes play out the secessionists will almost certainly lose their properties, as all case law has supported the Episcopal Church and one previous case (St Mary's, Denver) has gone all the way to the US Supreme Court, with the parish losing its case.
So ECUSA dispossessed them of their church through the courts - that must have been a big moral victory.
And why would you want to go for the other dioceses' properties?
Is ECUSA a Christian Church or a bunch of grasping asset strippers?
I rarely side with Rowan Williams (I am not sure it is correct to suggest he is on a side here) but there is nothing vindictive about the man - which is perhaps a virtue that the leaders of ECUSA might do well to copy.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
You really think any Tiber-swimming FiFers are going to be able to take their CoE properties with them? In TEC all property is held in trust for the entire corporate entity known as the Foreign and Domestic Missionary Society of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America, as incorporated under the laws of the State of New York. Get over it.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
You really think any Tiber-swimming FiFers are going to be able to take their CoE properties with them? In TEC all property is held in trust for the entire corporate entity known as the Foreign and Domestic Missionary Society of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America, as incorporated under the laws of the State of New York. Get over it.
Indeed I am sure the position in property law is all sown up - that is always the way with the materialistically minded.
That ECUSA would rather claim its property rights than see these churches continue with their traditional flocks says it all.
A shame that as a Church they cannot see the immorality of such actions.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Dave Marshall
Shipmate
# 7533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
We must all understand that we are part of the same church
No, we're not (except of course in the sense of an invisible universal church). This is the fallacy that is being perpetrated. Until a covenant is agreed, the Anglican Communion is a family of autonomous Churches that have in the past recognised each each other's orders and allowed members to take communion at each other's services. Implicit in that is respect for theological and eccesiological differences.
This is not about one bishop or clumsy politics but a proposed fundamental change in the nature of anglicanism. That it is in the process of being pushed through, apparently with Rowan Williams' blessing, is what I think underlies the strength of feeling being generated.
Posts: 4763 | From: Derbyshire Dales | Registered: Jun 2004
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
You really think any Tiber-swimming FiFers are going to be able to take their CoE properties with them? In TEC all property is held in trust for the entire corporate entity known as the Foreign and Domestic Missionary Society of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America, as incorporated under the laws of the State of New York. Get over it.
Indeed I am sure the position in property law is all sown up - that is always the way with the materialistically minded.
That ECUSA would rather claim its property rights than see these churches continue with their traditional flocks says it all.
A shame that as a Church they cannot see the immorality of such actions.
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
Look, in the Diocese of Fort Worth the secession displaced many faithful episcopalians from their own churches in those cases where they didn't comprise a solid majority of the voting membership. Those people are now having to worship in whatever space they can find. They need to get back to their accustomed places under secure TEC title. In cases in which there are no displaced persons (if any such instances exist)it might be possible for the reconstituted TEC diocese to rent the property to the secessionists, as was done for a very nominal amount in the case of St Mary's, Denver.
[ 08. December 2009, 15:11: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Is ECUSA a Christian Church or a bunch of grasping asset strippers?
Are you here for rational debate or would you prefer to call names?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Is ECUSA a Christian Church or a bunch of grasping asset strippers?
Are you here for rational debate or would you prefer to call names?
Of course! How dare aumbry suggest that that ECUSA is Christian. How excluding! Such name calling is completely out of order.
[ 08. December 2009, 15:34: Message edited by: Call me Numpty ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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ianjmatt
Shipmate
# 5683
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Is ECUSA a Christian Church or a bunch of grasping asset strippers?
Are you here for rational debate or would you prefer to call names?
Unlike all the name-calling by those whining about ++Rowan ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
You might want to visit my blog:
http://lostintheheartofsomewhere.blogspot.com
But maybe not
Posts: 676 | From: Shropshire | Registered: Mar 2004
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
If being a Christian means telling the gays and lesbians in my parish that they are not full and equal members of the body of Christ, then I'd rather not be a Christian.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
You really think any Tiber-swimming FiFers are going to be able to take their CoE properties with them? In TEC all property is held in trust for the entire corporate entity known as the Foreign and Domestic Missionary Society of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America, as incorporated under the laws of the State of New York. Get over it.
Well we've got a surplus of church buildings in many areas so as far as many people are concerned FiF are welcome to their buildings. But their legal status is even more complicated than in American law, because of the CoE's established status, the principle that the buildings belong to the whole community - not the CoE and not the particular congregation. I'd fully expect there to be examples of FiF congregations continuing to use their buildings by negotiation with the diocese. I don't think there's the sort of polarisation and animosity that there is in TEC which prevented any effective negotiation.
I suspect you may very well have a series of pyrrhic victories in the property cases in TEC. You may gain the building, but you're likely to lose many people who've hitherto worshipped in those buildings. It's doubtful that you can keep a TEC presence in many parishes and areas where you successfully sue.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
[cross-post]Regarding Archbishop Rowan:
Nope. Time for TEC to take a final bow and leave gracefully (if such a thing were possible).
Okay then! We'll also be taking the checkbook with us. According to the 2010-2012 budget (PDF), that's 3.49M USD.
Using the calculations I learned at the Food Pantry at my parish, one dollar buys five pounds of food, and a meal is about 1.3lbs of food... *does the math*
Thirteen million, four hundred twenty-three thousand, and seventy-six meals for hungry children of God.
Can't talk! Busy! We got people to feed!
[ 08. December 2009, 15:53: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
If being a Christian means telling the gays and lesbians in my parish that they are not full and equal members of the body of Christ, then I'd rather not be a Christian.
All forgiven sinners - including you, me and the gatepost - are full and equal members of the body of Christ. The job of the presbyter is to call all full and equal members of Christ's body and those who are outside of Christ to repentance. Calling people to repentance is an act of radical inclusivity. That's why the Church requires it of her presbyters.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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bonabri
Shipmate
# 304
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Posted
Two small points:
i) It is invidious, indeed perhaps patronising, to refer to "Africans" in this context as though all provinces and bishops on that continent have the same view;
ii) how tired I get of secessionists moaning over property issues. For goodness sake, if you resign from an organisation you are leaving it and all its assets.
Posts: 274 | From: Brighton and Hove, UK | Registered: May 2001
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
[cross-post]Regarding Archbishop Rowan:
Nope. Time for TEC to take a final bow and leave gracefully (if such a thing were possible).
Okay then! We'll also be taking the checkbook with us. According to the 2010-2012 budget (PDF), that's 3.49M USD.
Using the calculations I learned at the Food Pantry at my parish, one dollar buys five pounds of food, and a meal is about 1.3lbs of food... *does the math*
Thirteen million, four hundred twenty-three thousand, and seventy-six meals for hungry children of God.
Can't talk! Busy! We got people to feed!
Ooh! Financial clout and good works make me righteous!! Pharisee. Ever heard of Jesus?
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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St. Punk the Pious
Biblical™ Punk
# 683
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
You really think any Tiber-swimming FiFers are going to be able to take their CoE properties with them? In TEC all property is held in trust for the entire corporate entity known as the Foreign and Domestic Missionary Society of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America, as incorporated under the laws of the State of New York. Get over it.
As declared by a General Convention via the infamous "Dennis Canon" and not approved by any multitude of parishes, some of whom predate the Episcopal Church.
Myself, my General Convention, held in my majestic apartment cathedral, has just passed the Punk Canon. It reads in full: "All your parish are belong to us."
So fork it over and get over it.
--------------------
The Society of St. Pius *
Wannabe Anglican, Reader
My reely gud book.
Posts: 4161 | From: Choral Evensong | Registered: Jul 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Okay then! We'll also be taking the checkbook with us.
It's all about money and property with you people isn't it?
I have pointed out many times that the CoE has always paid more into the inter-Anglican budget than TEC. Your money and arrogance may not be missed as much as you think. That is if your leaders have the same temper tantrum as Spiffy.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
Hey, Spawn, what you and Numpty seem to be missing from my posts is I really, really, REALLY hate hierarchy. Blame my congregationalist roots. I think we should kick them all to the curb, from Rowan right on down to the last deacon getting a stipend.
I am just a simple woman, I'm no theological giant nor political maven. I think that when Jesus fed those 5,000 people on the hillside with just a little bit of food, that was pretty cool. So I always wonder why, when Jesus pulled that off 2,000 years ago, 35 million people in my own country are going hungry.
I've got my soapbox. It's full of food I'm trying to give away.
Your soapbox seems to be full of bitter gall that you keep trying to pass off to me.
I'd rather have peanut butter and cans of tuna than political wrangling. We always have problems maintaining stocks of shelf-stable proteins at the pantry, but especially at this time of year.
[ 08. December 2009, 16:05: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
I am just a simple woman,
with a chequebook.
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I don't know much about the "continuing Anglican" defectors from ECUSA, other than what I've read on this Ship to be honest, but from what I read here I suspect they won't, in the end, get much joy out of the likes of Sydney or Uganda or Nigeria either. There is perhaps a large cultural divide that agreement on this one issue won't bridge.
At least with the first wave of continuers (St Louis Affirmation, Chambers consecrations) the issue was more one of churchmanship. The Chambers jurisdictions were made up of intransigent old-style Anglo-Catholics in the late 1970s; not a good fit with the Evangelical styles of ++Akinola et al.
The current second wave of continuers has more in common with the African primates, at least in terms of how they see Anglicanism working. As I'm sure you know, there are a few prelates who oversee missionary dioceses in the US, and then there are all the bewildering interlocking para-ecclesial organizations like AMiA, GAFCON, and ACNA...
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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ianjmatt
Shipmate
# 5683
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Hey, Spawn, what you and Numpty seem to be missing from my posts is I really, really, REALLY hate hierarchy. Blame my congregationalist roots. I think we should kick them all to the curb, from Rowan right on down to the last deacon getting a stipend.
I am just a simple woman, I'm no theological giant nor political maven. I think that when Jesus fed those 5,000 people on the hillside with just a little bit of food, that was pretty cool. So I always wonder why, when Jesus pulled that off 2,000 years ago, 35 million people in my own country are going hungry.
I've got my soapbox. It's full of food I'm trying to give away.
Your soapbox seems to be full of bitter gall that you keep trying to pass off to me.
I'd rather have peanut butter and cans of tuna than political wrangling. We always have problems maintaining stocks of shelf-stable proteins at the pantry, but especially at this time of year.
You seem to be confusing two things:
1. The relationship of TEC with the rest of the Anglican Communion expressed through the instruments of unity
2. The need to feed the poor in your own country.
They are not mutually exclusive, but that is how it is reading. Perhaps if you seperate these two out what you're saying will seem an awful lot clearer.
--------------------
You might want to visit my blog:
http://lostintheheartofsomewhere.blogspot.com
But maybe not
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
ianjmatt, you seem to be confused. I don't give a flying figgy pudding about the Anglican Communion.
I only barely care about TEC.
Congregationalist, remember? Not quite sure what a bishop's good for, but others seem to like them. I like mine just fine as long as he's not being a nosy nellie and trying to tell this laywoman what she should or shouldn't be doing.
[ 08. December 2009, 16:18: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spawn:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Okay then! We'll also be taking the checkbook with us.
It's all about money and property with you people isn't it?
I have pointed out many times that the CoE has always paid more into the inter-Anglican budget than TEC. Your money and arrogance may not be missed as much as you think. That is if your leaders have the same temper tantrum as Spiffy.
Well, you guys have all those former colonies in Africa and everywhere else all over the less salubrious bits of the globe.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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aumbry
Shipmate
# 436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
ianjmatt, you seem to be confused. I don't give a flying figgy pudding about the Anglican Communion.
I only barely care about TEC.
Congregationalist, remember? Not quite sure what a bishop's good for, but others seem to like them. I like mine just fine as long as he's not being a nosy nellie and trying to tell this laywoman what she should or shouldn't be doing.
He is not the only one who is confused.
Do Congregationalists have a lot of leeway with ECUSA's chequebook?
Posts: 3869 | From: Quedlinburg | Registered: Jun 2001
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Spawn
Shipmate
# 4867
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
ianjmatt, you seem to be confused. I don't give a flying figgy pudding about the Anglican Communion.
I only barely care about TEC.
Congregationalist, remember? Not quite sure what a bishop's good for, but others seem to like them. I like mine just fine as long as he's not being a nosy nellie and trying to tell this laywoman what she should or shouldn't be doing.
What's your point then? I lost it somewhere along the way.
Posts: 3447 | From: North Devon | Registered: Aug 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
[cross-post]Regarding Archbishop Rowan:
Nope. Time for TEC to take a final bow and leave gracefully (if such a thing were possible).
That's pretty much been the tenor of the debate: "There is no place in the Anglican Communion for those that disagree with a narrow set of views on one particular issue!"
Somehow, I just don't see that as Anglican, but it seems the Anglican Communion has changed.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I don't know much about the "continuing Anglican" defectors from ECUSA, other than what I've read on this Ship to be honest, but from what I read here I suspect they won't, in the end, get much joy out of the likes of Sydney or Uganda or Nigeria either. There is perhaps a large cultural divide that agreement on this one issue won't bridge.
At least with the first wave of continuers (St Louis Affirmation, Chambers consecrations) the issue was more one of churchmanship. The Chambers jurisdictions were made up of intransigent old-style Anglo-Catholics in the late 1970s; not a good fit with the Evangelical styles of ++Akinola et al.
The current second wave of continuers has more in common with the African primates, at least in terms of how they see Anglicanism working. As I'm sure you know, there are a few prelates who oversee missionary dioceses in the US, and then there are all the bewildering interlocking para-ecclesial organizations like AMiA, GAFCON, and ACNA...
I must beg to disagree with your characterisation of the post-1976 crop of continuers: it was always a bad marriage between a few Anglo-Catholics (mostly clergy) and those who wanted to keep 1928 Morning Prayer (a lot of the laity).
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
Mary Glasspool has stated the following reason why she should be consecrated bishop: "Simply... it's time."
Now, that - to me - sounds like a direct reference to her sexual orientation. I'd be interested to know if I should be reading it another way. For example, is it a reference to her gender, or perhaps politics, or her churchmanship. I think she is saying that her consecration should go forward on the basis that it's time that there was a lesbian bishop. Bizarre.
I'm searching my ordinal and - quite honestly - I can't find that particular reason anywhere. Not surprising really.
If that's truly the case - then this gay Episcopalian agrees with you.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
[To Spawn]
My point is my priorities are different than yours.
Are they better? Meh. I don't care, they're my priorities, not yours, I can't speak for you.
And if the ABC and the rest of the Communion quit trying to make their priorities the same as TECs, using threats of power and scolding and a spanking from Daddy Rowan, maybe we could get some kingdom work done around here.
[ 08. December 2009, 16:26: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
Actually, a lot of this argument is about money. Not long after Lambeth '98 a CofE bishop said to me, "Privately, I'm very pro-gay. But if I said that publicly, about a dozen evangelical parishes in my diocese would stop paying their parish share tomorrow. We'd be bankrupt in three months."
Priorities, priorities . . .
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Lord knows our commitment to Christ is questioned day after day, but Lord forbid we accuse the conservatives of any negative motivations- that's being unfair and unreasonable!
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
[cross-post]Regarding Archbishop Rowan:
Nope. Time for TEC to take a final bow and leave gracefully (if such a thing were possible).
That's pretty much been the tenor of the debate: "There is no place in the Anglican Communion for those that disagree with a narrow set of views on one particular issue!"
TECs episcopate should look in the mirror and say that.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
At least with the first wave of continuers (St Louis Affirmation, Chambers consecrations) the issue was more one of churchmanship. The Chambers jurisdictions were made up of intransigent old-style Anglo-Catholics in the late 1970s; not a good fit with the Evangelical styles of ++Akinola et al.
I must beg to disagree with your characterisation of the post-1976 crop of continuers: it was always a bad marriage between a few Anglo-Catholics (mostly clergy) and those who wanted to keep 1928 Morning Prayer (a lot of the laity).
There's something to that; nevertheless, many of the Morning Prayer types fell away fairly quickly (or joined the UECNA) once it became clear to them that their bishops & priests were Catholics. Some went back to conservative ECUSA parishes; some joined other churches; some took up golf on Sunday mornings.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Bullshit-- what we have NEVER done is expect the conservative Provinces to do everything our way. It's been the other way around. For GAFCON, it's our way or the highway. If the Anglican Communion has no place for the liberals, then it has forsaken the Via Media that has defined it for so long.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Lord knows our commitment to Christ is questioned day after day, but Lord forbid we accuse the conservatives of any negative motivations- that's being unfair and unreasonable!
Zach
I'm just super-duper annoyed that because I insist God loves all her children, I have to put up with liberal fluffy-bunny pseudo-pagan theology a lot of the time. Since those parishes who are more my theological style would punt my queer ass out on the street.
I am, by the way, speaking from personal "been escorted out of a parish and told not to come back until you repent of being a dyke (preferably by getting hitched and popping out some kids), but be sure to drop your tithe check off at the parish office" history.
When people start talking about "gays" this and "conservatives" that, people forget that there is intersection between the two groups, and they are not monolithic in their beliefs.
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Bullshit-- what we have NEVER done is expect the conservative Provinces to do everything our way. It's been the other way around. For GAFCON, it's our way or the highway. If the Anglican Communion has no place for the liberals, then it has forsaken the Via Media that has defined it for so long.
Zach
Amazing, but I can agree with Numpty and Zach - I must be truly "Anglican" in my breadth...
Wait! That was the old Anglicanism wasn't it?
[ 08. December 2009, 16:45: Message edited by: Comper's Child ]
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
Amazing, but I can agree with Numpty and Zach - I must be truly "Anglican" in my breadth...
Wait! That was the old Anglicanism wasn't it?
Not all that old; I remember it. Gone forever, I suspect.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
quote:
I'm just super-duper annoyed that because I insist God loves all her children, I have to put up with liberal fluffy-bunny pseudo-pagan theology a lot of the time. Since those parishes who are more my theological style would punt my queer ass out on the street.
Heck, I'm not even that liberal. I'll start a riot if a priest calls Mary the "Mother of Christ." But I am willing to stand up for liberals, so I have to pitch my tent on that side of the line, I guess.
I would stand up for conservatives if they were being pushed out of a church. Heck, I've been that conservative before-- you wouldn't believe that crap my last Methodist church got up to.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Geneviève
Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
You really think any Tiber-swimming FiFers are going to be able to take their CoE properties with them? In TEC all property is held in trust for the entire corporate entity known as the Foreign and Domestic Missionary Society of the Protestant Episcopal Church in the United States of America, as incorporated under the laws of the State of New York. Get over it.
Indeed I am sure the position in property law is all sown up - that is always the way with the materialistically minded.
That ECUSA would rather claim its property rights than see these churches continue with their traditional flocks says it all.
A shame that as a Church they cannot see the immorality of such actions.
It is a shame that the clergy who have violated their ordination vows and then lied about it cannot see the immorality of their actions.
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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
Amazing, but I can agree with Numpty and Zach - I must be truly "Anglican" in my breadth...
Wait! That was the old Anglicanism wasn't it?
I am arguing that there can be One Church for both liberals and conservatives, and Numpty is arguing that there can only be a Church for conservatives. How is it you can agree with both views?
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274
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Posted
This is what many of the benighted Anglicans from beyond the seas fail to grasp: many of us here in the USA are conservative/traditional in terms of dogmatic theology; our moral theology is subject to the light of reason, as is the role we assign to scripture (we aren't fundamentalists, literalists or scriptural conservatives). Above all, we stand for human rights and for the dignity of all persons. Many of us think that more important than the survival of an artificiality called the Anglican Communion or our own membership of that club.
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Geneviève
Mother-Hatting Cat Lover
# 9098
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ianjmatt:
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
Hey, Spawn, what you and Numpty seem to be missing from my posts is I really, really, REALLY hate hierarchy. Blame my congregationalist roots. I think we should kick them all to the curb, from Rowan right on down to the last deacon getting a stipend.
I am just a simple woman, I'm no theological giant nor political maven. I think that when Jesus fed those 5,000 people on the hillside with just a little bit of food, that was pretty cool. So I always wonder why, when Jesus pulled that off 2,000 years ago, 35 million people in my own country are going hungry.
I've got my soapbox. It's full of food I'm trying to give away.
Your soapbox seems to be full of bitter gall that you keep trying to pass off to me.
I'd rather have peanut butter and cans of tuna than political wrangling. We always have problems maintaining stocks of shelf-stable proteins at the pantry, but especially at this time of year.
You seem to be confusing two things:
1. The relationship of TEC with the rest of the Anglican Communion expressed through the instruments of unity
2. The need to feed the poor in your own country.
They are not mutually exclusive, but that is how it is reading. Perhaps if you seperate these two out what you're saying will seem an awful lot clearer.
Ah,yes, the "instruments of unity"--which never existed until made up by ++Rowan and friends in the current attempt turn a communion--however imperfect as is the whole body of Christ--of autonomous provinces into a hierarchy governed by the top honchos of the hierarchy.
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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
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Posted
quote:
No, we're not (except of course in the sense of an invisible universal church). This is the fallacy that is being perpetrated. Until a covenant is agreed, the Anglican Communion is a family of autonomous Churches that have in the past recognised each each other's orders and allowed members to take communion at each other's services. Implicit in that is respect for theological and eccesiological differences.
Sorry, I wasn't clear - I did mean the church universal, but I was also talking about the anglican communion in terms of a family, that has autonomous units in it. Bit of a stretch, I know, but I couldn't think of a simpler way to put it. But right now it looks like a rugby scrum.... from the look of this thread anyway.... depressing.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Geneviève:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
That ECUSA would rather claim its property rights than see these churches continue with their traditional flocks says it all.
A shame that as a Church they cannot see the immorality of such actions.
It is a shame that the clergy who have violated their ordination vows and then lied about it cannot see the immorality of their actions.
The conservatives aren't the only ones guilty of this. A certain retired bishop of Newark comes to mind, who declared (according to the ordinal in use at his consecration) that he was persuaded that Holy Scripture contained all things necessary to salvation, and promised to "banish and drive away from the Church all erroneous and strange doctrine contrary to God's Word".
You can't take a lax attitude to the Creeds and then expect a literalistic adherence to the ancient canons to fly. It's a package deal.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I would stand up for conservatives if they were being pushed out of a church. Heck, I've been that conservative before-- you wouldn't believe that crap my last Methodist church got up to.
Oh, I'd believe, it's the unbelieveability of the shenanigans that eventually ran me out of the UMC.
[ 08. December 2009, 17:12: Message edited by: Spiffy ]
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Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account
Posts: 10281 | From: Beervana | Registered: Dec 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spiffy:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I would stand up for conservatives if they were being pushed out of a church. Heck, I've been that conservative before-- you wouldn't believe that crap my last Methodist church got up to.
Oh, I'd believe, it's the unbelieveability of the shenanigans that eventually ran me out of the UMC.
Once, the pastor hosted an "Interfaith Thanksgiving" service which included rituals from the Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Bahais, and the Pagans. I can't decide if the highlight of the service was the Hindus ringing the church bell in honor of Krishna, or the Bahais praying that all "false religion" should die out.
Stuff I don't have to put up with in the wicked ECUSA.
Zach
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Comper's Child:
Amazing, but I can agree with Numpty and Zach - I must be truly "Anglican" in my breadth...
Wait! That was the old Anglicanism wasn't it?
I am arguing that there can be One Church for both liberals and conservatives, and Numpty is arguing that there can only be a Church for conservatives. How is it you can agree with both views?
Zach
I agree with Numpty's point - IF - Mthr Glasspool believes she ought to be consecrated only because she is a suitable lesbian candidate because "it's time". I have no argument with her suitability - solely - because she is a lesbian. To me that's idiocy.
I agree with you that TEC isn't, by this or other episcopal elections, telling the African or other churches that they must do the same.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
I did a google search and couldn't find any such statement by the Rev Mary Glasspool. Actually I did find a very nice statement from her that I tried to post twice but didn't succeed either time; I'm not sure what was wrong with my link.
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
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Comper's Child
Shipmate
# 10580
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Posted
Yes, Numpty, I'd like to see that link.
Posts: 2509 | From: Penn's Greene Countrie Towne | Registered: Oct 2005
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Bullshit-- what we have NEVER done is expect the conservative Provinces to do everything our way. It's been the other way around. For GAFCON, it's our way or the highway. If the Anglican Communion has no place for the liberals, then it has forsaken the Via Media that has defined it for so long.
Zach
The so-called 'Via Media' or middle way is a liberal fiction and it always has been. Not only is it a liberal fiction but it is a dishonest fiction based on a false spatial metaphor. The reality is that a relative newcomer (i.e. liberal protestantism) has claimed a fictional 'middle' in an attempt to marginalize historically authentic Anglicanism. Well, this Anglican is having none of it. "Middle" my arse, you're on the edges and you know it.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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