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Source: (consider it) Thread: Purgatory: Second openly gay bishop in ECUSA (very likely)
RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by ianjmatt:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by aumbry:
Is ECUSA a Christian Church or a bunch of grasping asset strippers?

Are you here for rational debate or would you prefer to call names?
Unlike all the name-calling by those whining about ++Rowan [Roll Eyes]
There was no name-calling nor whining when the election of our two new bishops was announced in my parish this last Sunday. Most people probably couldn't tell you the ABC's name.

Spiffy's grandstanding aside, the reality is that many US Episcopalians are functionally congregationalists, or verging on being so. I for one will not look back if we get booted out of the Anglican Communion for electing gay bishops; I simply can't see working to stay in communion with people who are okay with murderous anti-gay legislation being pushed in their countries, very far away from where I live, and simultaneously telling people I worship and work with that their loving, healthy, fruitful and Christ-centered relationships are sinful and unworthy of recognition by the church.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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Numpty, it's you who is on the far edge of some sort of Anglicanism. In the States I'd surmise you to be a Southern Baptist or Televangelisto.
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37

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Was this the link perhaps?

She does say "it's time" but it's a bit different when in context. She takes 10 paragraphs to talk about her call before saying

quote:
The second thing is simply to say that it’s time.
The "second thing" is a single paragraph. So "it's time" is hardly her main claim to a vocation.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
The so-called 'Via Media' or middle way is a liberal fiction and it always has been.

It was probably originally used in Anglican circles in the 16th century to describe a middle way between Calvinist and Zwinglian views of the Eucharist.

I guess the idea that Anglicanism was somehow in between Rome and the "real" Protestants was a 19th century thing.

[ 08. December 2009, 18:27: Message edited by: ken ]

--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472

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RuthW points out fairly that many US Episcopalians are functionally congregationalists, or close enough to it. I think that applies to Canadians as well, which is one of the reasons that, when individual parishes go through turmoil on this (or other issues), a substantial chunk of the congregation simply stops going to church.

Broader connexions tend to be real only for a minority of parishioners, although I suppose we would have more sentimental sympathy for an Archbishop of Canterbury than a Californian gathering of any sort even if we are more likely to tune our televisions into a Californian product than a Cantuarian one.

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Callan
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# 525

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Originally posted by ken:

quote:
I guess the idea that Anglicanism was somehow in between Rome and the "real" Protestants was a 19th century thing.
The likes of Clarendon, Falkland et. al. tended to regard the C of E as a via media between Rome and Geneva, according to Clarendon's biographer. Whether they actually used the term via media, I have no idea. But basically, you have to be asleep at the wheel not to notice that we are way too popish for the protestant truth society and way too protestant for the pope.

If the C of E was basically just like Reform until the liberals and Oxford Movement got in on the act in the nineteenth century then why did we end up losing Baxter et. al. to the Presbies? Because the C of E was too high for the puritans but not, obviously, Roman Catholic. Quod Erat Demonstrandum (Quite Easily Done).

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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Because I couldn't get this link to work using the URL code facility, I'm going to try it by just copying the link itself: http://walkingwithintegrity.blogspot.com/2009/12/statement-by-mary-glasspool.html

I very much liked that.

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daronmedway
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# 3012

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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Numpty, it's you who is on the far edge of some sort of Anglicanism. In the States I'd surmise you to be a Southern Baptist or Televangelisto.

No, I'd be an Anglican in the States.
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daronmedway
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# 3012

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quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
The so-called 'Via Media' or middle way is a liberal fiction and it always has been.

It was probably originally used in Anglican circles in the 16th century to describe a middle way between Calvinist and Zwinglian views of the Eucharist.

I guess the idea that Anglicanism was somehow in between Rome and the "real" Protestants was a 19th century thing.

Exactly. The idea that the term Via Media can be applied to a "middle" and thereby more "authentic" form of Anglican churchmanship is false and dishonest.
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Matt Black

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# 2210

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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Numpty, it's you who is on the far edge of some sort of Anglicanism. In the States I'd surmise you to be a Southern Baptist or Televangelisto.

No, he seems pretty central Reformed Catholic to me, which in my book makes him an Anglican

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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Numpty, it's you who is on the far edge of some sort of Anglicanism. In the States I'd surmise you to be a Southern Baptist or Televangelisto.

No, I'd be an Anglican in the States.
Some sort of schismatic Anglican I expect. I don't know anyone in TEC like you. Finding you in an authentically Anglican Church would be about like discovering bird shit inside a cuckoo-clock.
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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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'love one another with a pure heart fervently... see that ye love one another' repeat ad naseum to disney type tune.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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tclune
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# 7959

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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Some sort of schismatic Anglican I expect. I don't know anyone in TEC like you. Finding you in an authentically Anglican Church would be about like discovering bird shit inside a cuckoo-clock.

Hostly Hat ON
This sure seems like a personal attack to me. As such, it has no place in Purgatory. Stop it.

--Tom Clune, Purgatory Host
Hostly Hat OFF

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This space left blank intentionally.

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Alogon
Cabin boy emeritus
# 5513

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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
"Middle" my arse, you're on the edges and you know it.

Numpty, you're in the Church of England, aren't you? Aren't there a lot of gay people in the Church of England? That has been my impression every time I have visited since 1972. The Church of England probably comprises about the same percentage of gay people as TEC.

In England as well as in the U.S., gay people are less and less "on the edges", i.e. marginal, and increasingly accepted in mainstream society. The U.S. is, if anything, rather laggard in this regard, considering how many civilized countries now provide either marriage or robust domestic partnerships without a second thought.

As they can hold their heads high in other areas of life to an extent almost undreamed of just forty years ago, naturally they will be increasingly impatient with second-class citizenship in the church. Maybe you imagine that if they all left, went on strike, or were raptured, you could say good riddance; but I doubt it. The church would lose valuable and outstandingly devoted members, if not grind quickly to a halt.

But once the Archbishop of Canterbury has insulted them enough with his obeisances to the right wing on another continent, that is what his own province may eventually get. Why should their patience and masochism in supporting an organization intent on denigrating them be unlimited? Who or what will be left even more "on the edges" then?

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Patriarchy (n.): A belief in original sin unaccompanied by a belief in God.

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Sir Pellinore
Quester Emeritus
# 12163

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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Numpty, it's you who is on the far edge of some sort of Anglicanism. In the States I'd surmise you to be a Southern Baptist or Televangelisto.

No, I'd be an Anglican in the States.
Some sort of schismatic Anglican I expect. I don't know anyone in TEC like you. Finding you in an authentically Anglican Church would be about like discovering bird shit inside a cuckoo-clock.
The only people you, Spiffy and Zach are ultimately crapping on is yourselves.

--------------------
Well...

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tclune
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# 7959

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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Numpty, it's you who is on the far edge of some sort of Anglicanism. In the States I'd surmise you to be a Southern Baptist or Televangelisto.

No, I'd be an Anglican in the States.
Some sort of schismatic Anglican I expect. I don't know anyone in TEC like you. Finding you in an authentically Anglican Church would be about like discovering bird shit inside a cuckoo-clock.
The only people you, Spiffy and Zach are ultimately crapping on is yourselves.
Hostly Hat ON
Sir P, I've already indicated this line of attack is off-base for Purgatory. Your cheap shots add no value at all. Stop it now.

--Tom Clune, Purgatory Host
Hostly Hat OFF

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This space left blank intentionally.

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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460

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quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
... why did we end up losing Baxter et. al. to the Presbies?

We didn't lose them. That would be carelessness! Charles II (or his government) kicked them out. Baxter (and a few thousand others) were excluded from their livings. Baxter himself carried on preaching where he could in both parish churches and private chapels, ands was imprisoned for it a number of times and persecuted by Judge Jeffries.

He wasn't a separatist or a Puritan - he wanted to keep a place for those of more Presbyterian views within the CofE, so he was more like what would have been called Broad Church in the 18th century, a sort of spiritual great-uncle of the Anglican evangelicals. And he was always strong for the Establishment of the national church, in a way that looks odd to us now - so many of his other ideas seem so modern that his identification of the Church of England with the English people at prayer seems not to fit - though of course it was commonplace then. Anachronistically you might call Baxter a High Church Evangelical (maybe he is John Wesley's counterpart - Wesley ended up a sort of low-church anglo-catholic) From his non-separatist point of view the Presbyterians and so on were part of the Church of England, whether the King thought they were or not. Anyway, Baxter survived till the Glorious Revolution and was accepted by the hierarchy of the CofE again before he died. And he was buried in the chancel of an Anglican church. So we never really lost him...

And as for the Protestant Truth society, would they have taken Richard Baxter's advice on how to deal with Papists?

quote:

(1) We must lay deep in our minds and inculcate in our hearers the common fundamental truth and duty, that love is the second great commandment like the first, that it is the fulfilling of the law, love is the second great commandment like the first, that it is the fulfilling of the law, that he that dwells in love dwells in God and God in him; that he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, loveth not God whom he never saw [...]

(2) We must acknowledge and commend all that is good among them, and must truly understand in what we are agreed.

(3) We must not deny what good use God hath made of Rome's grandeur, unity and concord [...]

(4) We must not, by scandals of some persons or fraternities, be drawn to think that the rest are like them, nor to deny but such men as Bernard, Gerson, and the abundance of friars and nuns, though zealous for the Roman concord, were godly excellent persons/ Even in the dark ages of the Church, what abundance of most learned school doctors had they, in which much piety also appeared (as in Bonaventura, Sales etc); and in the Oratory and many most learned Jesuits. All this we must candidly confess and honour.

(5) I think we should hurt no Papist in body or goods any further than it is necessary to our own defence, or the defence of the truth and souls of men and the Kingdom's safety; but win them by love.

(6) And (though the unlearned have safer and better books enough to read) I think it will do much to rectify men's judgments that are inclined to extremes, and to mellow and sweeten their hearts into Christian love, if the learned would read the devotional, pious writings of Papists ...[followed by a discussion of some Catholic devotional books Baxter foumd useful]...



--------------------
Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:

Spiffy's grandstanding aside,

Grandstanding? I don't rate that high on the set list. This bein' the Internet, I'm just another woman on her own private soapbox somewhere down the end of an alley, shoulder to shoulder with other folks on soapboxes tryin' to shout over each other.

Which I keep in mind, at least. A lot of other folks on the Internet seem to think they pride of place up front and center when one person deigns to notice them.

--------------------
Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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I stand by my characterization of your posts on this thread.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

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If that's high-church evangelicalism I'm all for it. [Overused]

Angloid (low-church anglo-catholic)

[tangential reply to ken interrupted by above two - non-tangential - posts]

[ 08. December 2009, 19:56: Message edited by: Angloid ]

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
I stand by my characterization of your posts on this thread.

Well, then, thank you kindly. It's good to know one has fans.

--------------------
Looking for a simple solution to all life's problems? We are proud to present obstinate denial. Accept no substitute. Accept nothing.
--Night Vale Radio Twitter Account

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Aren't there a lot of gay people in the Church of England? That has been my impression every time I have visited since 1972. The Church of England probably comprises about the same percentage of gay people as TEC.

Indeed. As Gene Robinson said in 2003, the real "h" word we're talking about is "honesty."
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ianjmatt
Shipmate
# 5683

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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
Aren't there a lot of gay people in the Church of England? That has been my impression every time I have visited since 1972. The Church of England probably comprises about the same percentage of gay people as TEC.

Indeed. As Gene Robinson said in 2003, the real "h" word we're talking about is "honesty."
That's not the start of 'interfering in our affairs' is it??? [Devil]

--------------------
You might want to visit my blog:
http://lostintheheartofsomewhere.blogspot.com

But maybe not

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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# 11274

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quote:
Originally posted by Alogon:
quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
"Middle" my arse, you're on the edges and you know it.

Numpty, you're in the Church of England, aren't you? Aren't there a lot of gay people in the Church of England? That has been my impression every time I have visited since 1972. The Church of England probably comprises about the same percentage of gay people as TEC.

In England as well as in the U.S., gay people are less and less "on the edges", i.e. marginal, and increasingly accepted in mainstream society. The U.S. is, if anything, rather laggard in this regard, considering how many civilized countries now provide either marriage or robust domestic partnerships without a second thought.

As they can hold their heads high in other areas of life to an extent almost undreamed of just forty years ago, naturally they will be increasingly impatient with second-class citizenship in the church. Maybe you imagine that if they all left, went on strike, or were raptured, you could say good riddance; but I doubt it. The church would lose valuable and outstandingly devoted members, if not grind quickly to a halt.

But once the Archbishop of Canterbury has insulted them enough with his obeisances to the right wing on another continent, that is what his own province may eventually get. Why should their patience and masochism in supporting an organization intent on denigrating them be unlimited? Who or what will be left even more "on the edges" then?

You know, Alogon, I'm not sure Numpty would be caught dead in those kind of CoE places. Yes, all the gays are to be found down the Anglo-Catholic parishes, but I've always wondered if in England the CoE is generally as gay as in the USA. I got stuck into one prominent A-C London parish before even moving there and then once we moved my partner and I were rapidly recruited as servers so we rarely had the chance to go elsewhere. I do think there are a number of differences. For one, more church-gays in the CoE seem to be old maids or sexually repressed than in TEC. They're very loathe to criticise the ABC in general because they view His Grace primarily as Metropolitan of the Province of Canterbury and as Primate of All England, but don't really experience him as Ye Olde Instrument of Unity of the Worldwide Anglican Communion. If they criticise, they make excuses for him in the same breath. In TEC, while we have some prominently gay Anglo-Catholic parishes, there are gay parishioners visibly spread throughout the range of churchmanship (with possible exception of staid, old fashioned low church). TEC of course is explicitly welcoming of gay members, whilst the CoE isn't (obviously as the State church to whose ministrations everyone has right of access, it's a bit of a different situation). I also think that in America gay persons aren't as alienated toward religion as is the case in the UK -- just a particular facet of the overall greater continuing religiosity of Americans. I'm not sure what the ramifications of all these differences are, but I do think gay and lebian persons have been able to find a true home at last in TEC, whereas in the CoE we may still be a bit like not-very-well-liked family members with whom the rest of them feel obliged to put up. And much more isolated within the A-C wing.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274

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To clarify, I meant much more concentrated within the A-C wing of the CoE, in contrast to the less A-C heavy distribution in TEC.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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quote:
Originally posted by Call me Numpty:
"Middle" my arse, you're on the edges and you know it.

Why is that, Numpty? What, precisely, puts me at the edges of Anglicanism?

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Zach82
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# 3208

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The conservatives on this thread remind me of something multipara said, who I hope will not mind that I cite for my own cause. In her own battles as a liberal in the Roman Catholic Church, she so often encounters hateful screeds from conservatives who wonder why she doesn't bugger off to other denominations or something- much like what Numpty et al. are offering here. Her response to them is along the lines of "I am just as baptized into this Holy Faith as you are, and this is my Church too. I'm not going anywhere."

Numpty & gang, if you don't want to sit down at the table with the ECUSA, then you don't have to. But we will take our place because we love our family, however much they disagree with us. You will have to learn to live with it. I will disagree with Spiffy here. I will not walk away, and if the conservatives throw us out, it is on their souls.

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495

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OK, I'm one very confused RC at this point. On the one hand, some of those who are supporters of Rev. Glasspool seem to be saying, "to hell with all this 'Anglican Communion' nonsense; we're essentially congregationalists anyway," while others are throwing around terms like "schismatic" and "authentic Anglican" etc. Am I correct in seeing (at least) two quite different ecclesiologies at work here? Does "schism" make any sense if one is basically a congregationalist? Do those who say "to hell with this Anglican Communion nonsense" care about being "Authentic Anglicans"? If so, what exactly is an "Authentic Anglican"?

Could someone help me sort out the various positions in play here?

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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.

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Pancho
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# 13533

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quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
Do those who say "to hell with this Anglican Communion nonsense" care about being "Authentic Anglicans"? If so, what exactly is an "Authentic Anglican"?

I second these questions, because when the subject of the Continuing Churches has come up in the past, I've seen members of the TEC object to the CCs calling themselves "Anglican", since they're not in communion with Canterbury. Following that reasoning, if the TEC ceases to be in communion with Canterbury, can it or its members continue to call themselves Anglican(s)?

[ 08. December 2009, 21:11: Message edited by: Pancho ]

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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

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Zach82
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quote:
If so, what exactly is an "Authentic Anglican"?
That is precisely the question that is up for debate. The Anglican Communion, as many have said, is a new creation. The ECUSA predates the creation of the AC, so naturally it is assumed that we would do quite well enough without it. The American Church has been getting the sort of attitude we have seen on this thread for 30 years, so I am not surprised that they feel that way.

Others, such as me, believe that the Anglican Communion is a symbolic union of independent provinces that share a common history and form of church governance.

Then you have those who believe the Anglican Communion is one worldwide denomination united over complete agreement over a narrow set of doctrines, especially doctrines about gay people.

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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I think you're taking the "congregationalist" description too literally. I guess there's some truth to it, in terms of people having a great deal of loyalty to their own parishes and not really giving a toss what is going on at diocesan or national levels. And yet I would hesitate to say that, because most people in a parish are pretty conscious of the parish's diocesan assessment -- the money they have to pony-up toward the support of the diocese and indirectly to that of the national church. For those of us who move around all over the country and remain with TEC, we obviously can't be congregationalists. I don't care much for the local churchmanship so I travel the fairly short journey over to the next diocese and state in order to attend a parish whose liturgics I find more agreeable, but when I go to the beach on the Atlantic coast here in Delaware, Sundays will find me at one of the Episcopal churches of this diocese.
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FCB

Hillbilly Thomist
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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Others, such as me, believe that the Anglican Communion is a symbolic union of independent provinces that share a common history and form of church governance.

So would, by this definition, Continuers be part of the Anglican Communion?

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Continuers aren't part of the Anglican Communion cause the ABC doesn't grant them official recognition and they don't get invited to any parties at Lambeth or Canterbury. If TEC gets thrown out of the AC we'll still be Anglican (like the continuers), we just won't be part of the Anglican Communion group.
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Geneviève

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quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
OK, I'm one very confused RC at this point. On the one hand, some of those who are supporters of Rev. Glasspool seem to be saying, "to hell with all this 'Anglican Communion' nonsense; we're essentially congregationalists anyway," while others are throwing around terms like "schismatic" and "authentic Anglican" etc. Am I correct in seeing (at least) two quite different ecclesiologies at work here? Does "schism" make any sense if one is basically a congregationalist? Do those who say "to hell with this Anglican Communion nonsense" care about being "Authentic Anglicans"? If so, what exactly is an "Authentic Anglican"?

Could someone help me sort out the various positions in play here?

I have not said "to hell with the Anglican Communion" but I am not a fan of the proposed Covenant, nor of++Rowan's heavy pressure to ratify and codify a type of relationship between provinces that has not previously existed.

With Zach, I would say that the Anglican Communion has been a loosely related set of provinces worldwide with a more or less common worship, adherence to the Creed, and a common polity based on apostolic succession of bishops. The ABC was/has been essentially a ceremonial head, with influence, but absolutely no power over any other province, all of which are autonomous. The Lambeth Conferences, held every 10 years, have never--until now--been seen as producting resolutions that carried binding weight.
Provinces do not all have the same polity in specific matters. For example, in TEC bishops are elected by diocesan convention, then ratified by other dioceses. In other provinces bishops are appointed. Our PB does not have any power over the dioceses; in other provinces the primate does have much more power.
Trying to make us a worldwide confessional denomination is madness IMO. Why should all the provinces be in lockstep?

[ 08. December 2009, 21:28: Message edited by: Geneviève ]

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"Ineffable" defined: "I cannot and will not be effed with." (Courtesy of CCTooSweet in Running the Books)

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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IIRC about 3 years ago there was talk that provinces that signed onto the proposed covenant would be real, full members of the Communion and any provinces who didn't do so would have some secondary status. Maybe that's how it will end for TEC -- neither fully in nor fully out. I don't see how we can ratify a convenant that is explicitly designed to advance the agenda of a particular faction which is ill-disposed toward TEC.
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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by FCB:
OK, I'm one very confused RC at this point. On the one hand, some of those who are supporters of Rev. Glasspool seem to be saying, "to hell with all this 'Anglican Communion' nonsense; we're essentially congregationalists anyway," while others are throwing around terms like "schismatic" and "authentic Anglican" etc. Am I correct in seeing (at least) two quite different ecclesiologies at work here? Does "schism" make any sense if one is basically a congregationalist? Do those who say "to hell with this Anglican Communion nonsense" care about being "Authentic Anglicans"? If so, what exactly is an "Authentic Anglican"?

Could someone help me sort out the various positions in play here?

Let me take an apophatic approach to this question. Authentic Anglicanism is not synonymous with being "Middle Of The Road". This incredibly arrogant spacial metaphor - that claims some fictional "middle" - is just a thinly disguised play for dominance, like a spoilt child whining because they lost at musical chairs.
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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Actually, as some C17 controversialist wrote, Anglicanism is perched atop the perfect pinnacle, midway between the meretricious gaudiness of the Church of Rome and the squalid sluttery of a fanatical conventicle. From atop that perfect pinnacle, I myself lean out toward the meritricious gaudiness of Rome, whilst I'll leave you to guess who amongst the Anglican posters here is closer to the squalid sluttery of a fanatical conventicle side of things.

[ 08. December 2009, 22:03: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]

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daronmedway
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I'd rather be face up in a gutter than face down in a palace.
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ianjmatt
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Actually, as some C17 controversialist wrote, Anglicanism is perched atop the perfect pinnacle, midway between the meretricious gaudiness of the Church of Rome and the squalid sluttery of a fanatical conventicle. From atop that perfect pinnacle, I myself lean out toward the meritricious gaudiness of Rome, whilst I'll leave you to guess who amongst the Anglican posters here is closer to the squalid sluttery of a fanatical conventicle side of things.

And yet would scorn the authority of the Bishop of Rome?

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http://lostintheheartofsomewhere.blogspot.com

But maybe not

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
Actually, as some C17 controversialist wrote, Anglicanism is perched atop the perfect pinnacle, midway between the meretricious gaudiness of the Church of Rome and the squalid sluttery of a fanatical conventicle. From atop that perfect pinnacle, I myself lean out toward the meritricious gaudiness of Rome, whilst I'll leave you to guess who amongst the Anglican posters here is closer to the squalid sluttery of a fanatical conventicle side of things.

I'm not sure whether those you consider coming from that nasty place would deign to even speak to ECUSA. Certainly Sydney and Nigeria have basically gone their own way. No one from Nigeria has, as far as I'm aware, ever posted on these boards and I think any 'Sydney Anglican' from Sydney would steer well clear of this thread.

The English Evangelical position - where many who argue against you come from - is actually as normal and valid as the Anglo-Catholic one. Ken, Spawn et sim are no weird kooks from outer space but quite normal CofE members.

Alogon is also quite correct: there are quite a few gay clergy in England as there are in Australia.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anyone here has argued that gays are inherently evil nor proposed 'the Nigerian solution'.
[Roll Eyes]

I think the gist of the disagreement lies in the conception of what Christian sex ethics in practice should be.

I'll avoid the question 'whose business is that' for the moment.

The concept of what Christian sex ethics in practice should be obviously effects what sort of ethics someone called to the ministry or episcopate should have.

There is disagreement on this between ECUSA and others in the Communion, not necessarily extremists such as Sydney nor Nigeria.

As far as I am aware the statements from ++ Canterbury and Canon Glasspool have been extremely diplomatic. They still appear to be communicating.

If I understand the likes of RuthW and Zach they wish to remain in Communion and to keep communicating.

I suspect that a sort of impaired Communion - with mutual doubts and suspicion from each side still talking - will continue.

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Well...

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Grammatica
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):

If I understand the likes of RuthW and Zach they wish to remain in Communion and to keep communicating.

I suspect that a sort of impaired Communion - with mutual doubts and suspicion from each side still talking - will continue.

Still talking -- yes, but not often, and they'll be short conversations: wave, smile, "Hi, how ya doin'." Not much else left to say, really.

TEC is in full communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church of American (ELCA) and several other bodies more disposed to show goodwill toward us than the Church of England evangelicals. There is much talk of our simply choosing to unite with our brothers and sisters in these churches, with whom we also have historic ties. That sounds like a very good solution to the Communion problem to me, FWIW.

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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
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I'd agree, Grammatica. And really far more exciting since we can actually do things on the ground together.

As far as gay clergy in the CoE I do know they are still being pushed into positions of silenced hypocricy -- civil partnered couples having to pretend not to have a relationship that includes genital sexual expression. In point of fact I know one half of such a male clergy couple. They wouldn't be put in that position in TEC. It's a pathetic policy.

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Sir Pellinore
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quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Pellinore (ret'd):

If I understand the likes of RuthW and Zach they wish to remain in Communion and to keep communicating.

I suspect that a sort of impaired Communion - with mutual doubts and suspicion from each side still talking - will continue.

Still talking -- yes, but not often, and they'll be short conversations: wave, smile, "Hi, how ya doin'." Not much else left to say, really.

...


Good point. 'Mutual misunderstanding at 100 yards'.

It might take a while to start talking meaningfully again.

ECUSA is very American (Surprise! Surprise!
[Biased] ) So I'm not surprised it talks to other American churches.

The future is fluid.

The American (and possibly Canadian to a lesser extent) mindset and the way that expresses itself is very different from the English and other British (which vary) as well as the Australian.

Watch this space...

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Well...

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Organ Builder
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Well, I'm not surprised that the thread was at five pages before I had a chance to catch up...

I don't think most American Episcopalians are particularly surprised that the Diocese of L.A. would elect an honestly-gay bishop. Nor are they surprised at the consternation this would cause elsewhere. I think the particular anger at ++Rowan's generally bland tut-tutting response, however, is just how quickly it was made--when no amount of increasing pressure internationally or from those in his own province has brought him to make any statements about the involvement of the Church of Uganda in pushing the draconian legislation there.

I would also have to say that the best responses--and some of the harshest words--that I have read on the topic outside of the Ship are by people who are NOT on my side of the pond (Louise's new signature comes to mind).

I would have been happier with our own PB if she had spoken out a little sooner, but I suspect that anything we have to say will just push Uganda harder in the opposite direction...what with us being apostate, and all.

I think it is possible that the "gracious restraint" urged might have had a chance of holding longer if there had ever been the least sign that ALL the gracious restraints asked for were important.

I don't think Americans would have blamed him for being unable to stop Nigeria and Uganda from poaching US congregations. They do blame him for not seeming to care. The perception--even among the convincible moderates--was that the only church for whom "Thou shalt not..." was important was TEC. It isn't just the rabid liberals that ++Rowan lost in the US (and in all fairness he never had them). He has lost the much larger middle who might have been able to prevent the confirmation of another gay bishop.

Most Americans still have a lot of respect for the position of the Archbishop of Canterbury. They aren't wasting any time over the pronouncements of the current holder of that See, however. They would be sorry to see the Anglican Communion change, but have begun to recognize the Communion as envisioned by ++Rowan is a change from its history.

Many Americans are also well aware that there are other Provinces in Britain who will be proud to remain in FULL communion with TEC.

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How desperately difficult it is to be honest with oneself. It is much easier to be honest with other people.--E.F. Benson

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Choirboy
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I don't give a toss for impaired communion. In for a penny, in for a pound. If impaired communion is all that is on offer, I'd just as soon have no association with the Anglican Communion.

That said, I imagine in this situation the establishment of a number of inter communion relationships resulting with a number of national churches currently in the Anglican Communion.

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RuthW

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quote:
Originally posted by Grammatica:
TEC is in full communion with the Evangelical Lutheran Church of American (ELCA) and several other bodies more disposed to show goodwill toward us than the Church of England evangelicals. There is much talk of our simply choosing to unite with our brothers and sisters in these churches, with whom we also have historic ties. That sounds like a very good solution to the Communion problem to me, FWIW.

Kenneth Leech spoke at my parish a while back, and the most memorable (to me, at any rate) thing he said was that in the future the various denominations of Christianity will be relatively meaningless, and there will really only be two kinds of Christians: those who believe that the Kingdom of God is the province of the next life and those who believe it is up to us to bring about the Kingdom of God here and now.
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RadicalWhig
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quote:
Originally posted by Organ Builder:
Many Americans are also well aware that there are other Provinces in Britain who will be proud to remain in FULL communion with TEC.

I don't know much about how Anglicanism works.

Is it possible for the CofE to be out of communion with TEC, but for the Scottish Episcopal Church to be in communion with both the CofE and the TEC, but not say, with Uganda?

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Radical Whiggery for Beginners: "Trampling on the Common Prayer Book, talking against the Scriptures, commending Commonwealths, justifying the murder of King Charles I, railing against priests in general." (Sir Arthur Charlett on John Toland, 1695)

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Zach82
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quote:
Is it possible for the CofE to be out of communion with TEC, but for the Scottish Episcopal Church to be in communion with both the CofE and the TEC, but not say, with Uganda?
Probably. The precedent being situations like TEC being in full communion with the ELCA, but the CoE and all aren't. Several provinces have similar agreements.

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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ken
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Yep, CofE are in pretty much complete communion with the Epsicopal Lutherans in Scandinavia, and some of them are with some north American Lutherans and some of them are with various Canadian churches that are in communion with our Methodists here, and them with our URC... so you can sort of work your way along the chain - there might even be some cyclic loops of communion.

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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Zach82
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Speaking of impaired communion, I think the CoEers should give some serious thought to what Akinola and gang will think of your province once he doesn't have the ECUSA to pitch a fit about.

Zach

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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