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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Heaven: The SoF Railway Enthusiasts' Thread
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
The Boat Train has a long history. I think it goes back to about 1885. It used to bring a Sandringham into Sheffield Victoria in the fifties. I've travelled short distances in it in the 60s as part of a contorted journey from Norwich to Rugby, and later from Sheffield to Manchester over Woodhead not long before it closed.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Just the way of the world, Zappa.
The number of people who will actually pay to ride on a nostalgia train is a small fraction of the tourists or locals who might be around. Another small fraction like taking pictures of siad nostalgia train, but too many of them will not pay anything towards the cost of the photo-op.
And, in my own experience, the combination of aging equipment, with no useful source of parts for same any longer in existence, plus the waning enthusiasm (aging, dare we say it?) of the volunteers, plus the general apathy of too many people about "old stuff", plus the huge increase in insurance cost all add up to "Sorry, mate. No trains".
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Shubenacadie
Shipmate
# 5796
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Posted
In the UK, the preservation movement seems to keep on expanding. I think there is some concern about recruiting new volunteers (perhaps when the generation who were trainspotters in the 1950s die off it will be time for me to stop being an armchair enthusiast who occasionally visits preserved railways, and get my hands dirty helping run one!), but so far, although various schemes have failed to get off the ground, there have been few if any failures of well-established operations. Perhaps it's to do with population density -- more potential volunteers and more potential customers than in Canada or New Zealand.
Posts: 58 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2004
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
The population thing is certainly one factor. The Maritime Provinces (NS, NB & PEI) have about 1.8 million people in an area that is within 2% of that of England (not the whole UK). Given 51 million and change, you have about 28 times as many people, with a transport infrastructure to match.
There is precisely one train each way, only 6 days a week, that runs through from Halifax across central NS and up through one side of NB - not a practical device to deal with much traffic - so little present attention is drawn to trains. We often only see two mainline freights each way (up to 8000 feet long, admittedly) daily
In the steam era, there were, at best, perhaps four trains a day on any major line. And virtually all the branch lines and local services disappeared in the '60s, with the feeder passenger services gone by '91.
Most of the population rarely if ever, went anywhere much by train, so there is little nostalgia available.
The infrastructure which might have helped us in the museum was totally removed by the mid-80s.
The killer was 9/11, though. Our insurance rate went from $4000 to $50,000 in one year at that time - they really did not want our business and said so.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Diesels under the wires are just about inevitably, but seem to be more common than usual in the UK due to a couple of factors.
1. Electrification of the mainline rail system has never been completed.
2. What electricification there has been North of London was driven by the traffic patterns of 1960, 70, or 80 - not what prevails now.
The biggest source of new diesel haulage under the wires is the fact that locos have been abandoned in favour of glorified EMUs and DMUs. This prevents one changing traction when going off the wires and means that you have to run diesels under the wires from destinations such as Holyhead and Aberdeen. As a result, trains that used to change locos, such as the old Glasgow-Bristol via the WCML and London Euston -Holyhead now run diesel all the way.
One way of reducing the amount of milege under the wires might be to exploit some alterative routings. For example, London to Holyhead could run into Marylebone rather than Euston, but there is usually a time penalty involved.
In the current UK context it is difficult to find relatively discrete high density operations that would be worth electrifying. The only two that make sense to me are:
1. Midland Mainline from Bedford to Sheffield and Nottingham.
2. The Glasgow-Edinburgh-Aberdeen/Dyce triangle. There's probably a strong public benefit argument for throwing in the Fife Circle into that project.
After that, the next most plausible candidate is probably the North Trans-Pennine route from Liverpool to York via Manchester Pic, Huddersfield and Leeds. However, there is a lot of "marginal mileage" at the East end of the route which undermines the economic case for the project. Though you could certainly electrify a lot of local train services if you opted for Liverpool, Manchester to Leeds, York and Hull
The difficult system to electrify is the former GWR out of Paddington. Paddington to Bristol and Cardiff (Swansea?) would probably be the best bet, but this would leave the Worcester/Hereford; Gloucester Cheltenham, and Exeter/Plymouth services still diesel.
All of this forces me to conclude that apart from local projects (e.g. Airdrie-Bathgate-Edinburgh) there probably is not going to be any further electrification in the UK until there is a major change of attitude on the part of the politicians.
Also, I think there is a case for a new High Speed route from London to Manchester via something close to the the old GCR route. This would allow Birmingham trains to branch off the HSL at Rugby, and serve Leicester, Nottingham, Sheffield, and Manchester directly. However, I think the politicians will screw that one up.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
All of this forces me to conclude that apart from local projects (e.g. Airdrie-Bathgate-Edinburgh) there probably is not going to be any further electrification in the UK until there is a major change of attitude on the part of the politicians.
One change of attitude, coming right up ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
They're going to electrify the Great Western main line, and Liverpool - Manchester. Not before time, too!
[ 20. November 2009, 10:43: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
All of this forces me to conclude that apart from local projects (e.g. Airdrie-Bathgate-Edinburgh) there probably is not going to be any further electrification in the UK until there is a major change of attitude on the part of the politicians.
One change of attitude, coming right up
They're going to electrify the Great Western main line, and Liverpool - Manchester. Not before time, too!
Lord Adonis is the only politician for yonks who has understood railways. Much as I am suspicious of New Labour, fearful of the Tories, and cynical about politicians who change sides, I rather hope he'll defect to Cameron if the latter wins the next election. At least there will be somebody in authority who knows what has to be done.
The Midland main line is at least as important as the GW, so I hope that will be next. And not just the Stephenson route from Liverpool to Manchester, but the one via Warrington needs to be done. Plus Manchester-Leeds-York. Then we might get fast through trains again from Merseyside to Tyneside, instead of DMUs to Scarborough.
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
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Posted
Regarding "nostalgia trains."
In Michigan, a state with 15% unemployment, a steam festival this summer involving two Berkshires and a Northern drew tens of thousands of visitors. The rides behind these locomotives were sold out months in advance. I personally met with a number of young people (in or barely out of their teens) who were as excited about steam as the older of us. (I know, because I had to fight them to get vestibule space.)
During the Christmas season, a "Polar Express" run behind the locomotive that served as the model for the locomotive in the Tom Hanks film also is sold out months in advance.
I liken steam trains to traditional liturgy. When Compline services at Seattle's Episcopal cathedral are full of young people on Sunday nights, it augers well for the preservation of live steam.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Spouse:
I was surprised to hear that Preston is in the list
Its already been upgraded a lot. It could do with pedestrian access from the river side but apart from that Preston's fine. Looks better than a lot of stations that have been "modernised", like Brighton, which is full of the same old boring franchises now and has lost most of its distinctive character. (Though to be fair it does have to handle four times the number of boardings in a much smaller space than Preston)
Preston's a nicer station to be in than Swindon or Reading (or even Hayward's Heath - which is, belive it or not, busier!)
Now, if the government was going to spend out tax money on a revitalisation of the railways of the north-west of England centred on Preston, re-opening some old lines, putting more trains on little-used lines, and building new stations in residential areas, in a serious attempt to take commuter and shopping traffic off the roads - that would be good news. But prettying up stations that already have inadequate local train services does no-one much good other than the suppliers of corporate branded plastic shopfronts.
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
On the subject of Pacers: as an enthusiast I like them, because they look different and in this modern age of conformity difference is good.
If I were a bus enthusiast, I might like them too. They might one day (when there are only two or three left in captivity) look as quirky and unusual as some of the strange hybrid vehicles one sees in vintage photographs of old branch lines.
They might. But to me they will always be crap, look crap, smell crap and sound crap.
DMUs were always a bad idea. Every penny spent on them is a penny taken away from neccessary electrification. Light suburban and short-distance inter-urban rail (that the north-west of England is full of) ought to be electrified on tram principles.
Where there is no electricity (sad, sad, sad) use diesel electric when you can afford it and little locos if you can't. Yes, real rural railways will lose money. We know that. We just need to pay for it. What's better, subsidising a rural line by a million pounds a year for a crap service no-one wants to use, or two million for a decent fast service that supplies hundreds or even thousands of passengers a day to the main line?
It can be done. The East Suffolk line works, its sometimes even overcrowded, it is used for local traffic in the Ispwich/Woodbridge area as well as tourists and commuters to London. And there are plans to extend the service.
OK, its served by DMUs, so maybe my rantlet above is mis-aimed. But they are decent clean DMUs that look like proper electric trains! (Class 170 for the longer journeys, 156 for shorter ones) But half of it runs on single track and it goes through areas with much lower population than some bits of the North than have to put up with pacers.
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I'm pretty sure it doesn't. But what they don't tell you when the WCML is blockaded, that it is often quicker (and cheaper*) to get a train to Birmingham (London Midland semi-fast), and pick up a Marylebone train from Moor Street.
Tell me about it! When the engineerign works were at their worst a few years ago the Virgin instructions on one journey I made were to get off at New Street bound for London, get a rail replacement bus to Airport, then a train to Milton Keynes, then another train to London. So I just walked over to Moor Street and got a direct train.
Another time, northbound to Preston just before Christmas, Virgin were advising passengers not to travel because of works ar Rugby and Crewe and that evil bridge over the Mersey (or is it the Ship canal?) . So I took an almost deserted train to Birmingham, intending to go via Manchester. But there were a couple of Preston trains advertised - so I got one anyway. Not many people did. Even if there had been no through trains the worst case might have been Manchester Airport, then one of the central Manchester stations, then somehow through Wigan or even a local bus from Bolton - it was obviously doable.
The rail companies try to act as if they were airlines and we had no other choices.
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
It's a far cry from the days of the 4VEP's and 2SUB's on the Waterloo to Reading line in the early 1980's, when I was regularly taking my bikes on the trains. At least in those days there was a guards van with proper space for bicycles &c.
You can still take bikes free on trains in and around London - you stand with them in the doorway - there are rules against taking them in the rush hour but they are often broken. I've always been amazed at the fuss some other rail systems make about bikes - all my life I've been used to just being able to wheel them on to the train without any fuss.
If we can handle it in the South-East of England, which is the most complex and intensive regional passenger rail network in Europe, why not in the rest of the country?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
that evil bridge over the Mersey (or is it the Ship canal?)
Both.
quote:
You can still take bikes free on trains in and around London - you stand with them in the doorway - there are rules against taking them in the rush hour but they are often broken.
Merseyrail actively encourage people to take bikes. Even in the rush hour.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
The rot set in with the local branchline when the "Maggie Thatcher memorial timetable" was introduced in 1989/90. The service dropped from hourly to nine trains a day, and at the same time a lot of the onwards connections disappeared because those services were already two-hourly. This cut patronage by about 35% on a service that was already under used.
Just to add insult to injury, the County Council subsidized a bus service which departed at the same times as the former trains, but took far longer - 70 mins instead of 40 minutes, because they were ideologically opposed to subsidizing local train service. The usual problem with branchlines isn't so much the fact they don't make a profit, but that the bean counters rarely see them as an asset, but rather as a problem to be contained, and if politically acceptable, eliminated.
The train service is a permanent mess in that area due to the fact it is served by three different TOCs each operating a relative handful of trains. East Midlands operates 8 trains a day; North TransPennine 16, and Northern 9. Personally, I think the North TransPennine franchise should be reintegrated into Northern, which would eliminate half the chaos locally. In former times all the local routes north of Lincoln were Great Central, and later LNER. This two or three different operators business is new to us - an unwelcome farce caused by Privatization.
PD
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Going back (yet again) to the sorry subject of the Pacers, I probably didn't make my point very clear. It is not that I cannot take my bike on the train; I can, and I don't have to pay extra for it. My gripe is that, if a class 150 rolls in, I have very mixed feelings. On the one hand, it will be a reasonably comfortable ride, on the other, I may get ordered to the other end of the train to park my bike. The problem is that it is not immediately obvious (from the outside) which end of the train has the bicycle / pushchair / wheelchair accomodation. This can lead to an undignified scramble to get the bike to the right end of the train before the Guard's patience is exhausted. At least with the old Southern EMU stock I mentioned, the location of the Guard's van was instantly visible (the double door was a give-away) and there was always plenty of room in there. It is a pity that modern designs seem to offer no such provision.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
Free carriage of bikes was something that began in the 1970s when the decline of mail, parcels and newspaper traffic basically made the van sections of DMUs and EMUs redundant. That happy fault led to a sweet deal for bikes. Unfortunately, when the old Multiple Unit fleet was replaced from 1985 onwards Thatcherite penny pinching struck and the new fleet replaced the old on the basis of two new vehicles for every three old ones withdrawn. It also marked the end of van sections on MU stock, which wasn't so great for cyclists. However, at least we have not had the apocalyptic scenario that was toted in the late 1980s - the virtual disappearence of free cycle accomodation on trains.
The two big criticismd I have of the DMU replacement programme is that they did not build enough Cl.150s for suburban work, and did not got with a new generation of DEMUs for services like Edinburgh-Glasgow, Liverpool-Newcastle, etc.. The underfloor engine noise on the 158s used to get quite wearisome on the three and a half hour trip from Newcastle to Liverpool.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Free carriage of bikes was something that began in the 1970s when the decline of mail, parcels and newspaper traffic basically made the van sections of DMUs and EMUs redundant. That happy fault led to a sweet deal for bikes.
I'm pretty sure bikes were free long before that on the old southern electrics. But then I'm from Brighton - at the end of the only main line in the UK the have been third rail since the 1920s. Despite being born in the 1950s I don't remember steam trains from childhood because where I lived there weren't any. And the only diesel was goods.
[This is a Real Train Note the flat nose with a door in the middle of it so you can make corridor trains of any length. With guards vans of course.
And despite the lack of streamlining and the old-fashione motors they could still do 100mph approaching Hayward's Heath from the north.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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daviddrinkell
Shipmate
# 8854
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Free carriage of bikes was something that began in the 1970s when the decline of mail, parcels and newspaper traffic basically made the van sections of DMUs and EMUs redundant. That happy fault led to a sweet deal for bikes.
I'm pretty sure bikes were free long before that on the old southern electrics. But then I'm from Brighton - at the end of the only main line in the UK the have been third rail since the 1920s. Despite being born in the 1950s I don't remember steam trains from childhood because where I lived there weren't any. And the only diesel was goods.
[This is a Real Train Note the flat nose with a door in the middle of it so you can make corridor trains of any length. With guards vans of course.
And despite the lack of streamlining and the old-fashioned motors they could still do 100mph approaching Hayward's Heath from the north.
Yes, I remember those Southern EMUs going like the clappers, as did the equivalent flat-nosed jobs on the lines out of Liverpool Street.
As for steam, I was also born in the 50s, but I have a number of steam memories. In particular, as a very small child, being taken on the back of my mother's bike and waiting east of Colchester Station (where there was a pedestrian level crossing over the main line) to see the 'Norfolkman' come through, always behind a Britannia, usually 70005 'John Milton'.
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David
Posts: 1983 | From: St. John's, Newfoundland | Registered: Dec 2004
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
I was born in Grays in 1949 and so have memories of the steamers on the line out from Fenchurch Street to Sarfend. I also remember being terrified of the noise and smoke in Fenchurch Street Station.
We left there in 1954 and moved to Ealing where my dad had an easier commute into The City along the Central Line to Bank.
A year later we moved to Cheshire and I vividly remember the steamers from Oxford Road to Chester going past the end of the school playing fields. Occasionally a train of hoppers for ICI would be steam pulled but mostly there were diesel.
Over here I have been steam pulled twice, once from Coonoor down to Mettupalayam on the Nilgiri Mountain Railway [the Ooty line which uses rack and pinion] and once on the Darjeeling Mountain Railway. I am hoping one day to get to the Neral - Matheran line.
Last week we did the Guruvayur - Aluva run, just a little local passenger - though with a dozen or more bogeys hardly that little but then mainline expresses are often 24 or 26 bogeys long.
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Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
My memories of steam running in revenue-earning service are rather thin on the ground. My family moved to Stourbridge (10 miles west of Birmingham) in April 1961, when I was just 2 weeks old. Whilst Stourbridge had been GWR prior to nationalisation, I know it was subsequently transfered to the London Midland region ~ I couldn't tell you which it was in 1961, but steam was definitely waning.
I can just about remember my mother taking me to see the auto-train which operated the shuttle service between the Town and Junction stations ~ the existing Stourbridge Junction station is rather more than a mile from the town centre. The Auto-train was usually a 14xx Class 0-4-2 tank plus one carriage.
Sadly, I have no recollection of Snow Hill in steam days. My mother told me that we did make that trip once or twice, but my memories only extend to DMU trips into New Street. Snow Hill was just a pile of rubble by the time I was old enough to remember such things. It seems ironic to me now that Snow Hill has had to be re-opened, albeit on a far smaller scale ~ everybody was so confident that New Street could handle the traffic in the 1970's; damp, dark, claustrophobic hole that it was and remains. It just goes to show that we should not simply accept everything that The Planners tell us ~ they can be wrong too ...
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
I can just about remember my mother taking me to see the auto-train which operated the shuttle service between the Town and Junction stations ~ the existing Stourbridge Junction station is rather more than a mile from the town centre. The Auto-train was usually a 14xx Class 0-4-2 tank plus one carriage.
Now they have Parry People Movers, when the dang things are working. I think I prefer the auto train.
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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
My memories of steam are all associated with the Isle of Man Railway in the last couple of years before the Island's steam railway was nationalised. The IMR has always had a funny status in that Tourism has always been a large part of its business. Even now it is pretty much a preserved railway, it is operated by the IOM Department of Tourism and Transport, who have nvested some fairly serious amounts of cash in modernising the track, stations and level crossings.
The one thing that would be a disappointment to me today would be going to Douglas Station. I remember it when it had four long platforms with umbrella canopies, a large carriage shed, and a fair sized freight yard adjacent to the passenger station. At its height the IMR's three-foot gauge trains handled 1.2 million passengers a year, and Douglas station handled 60-70 trains a day. By the time I got there in the mid-1970s it was more like ten trains a day and 150,000 passengers a day. You really got an uncanny feeling of rattling around in a terminus which was built for much larger passenger numbers.
Today Douglas station has been pushed to the northside of the former station site. Two platforms have been demolished, the cariage shed has been relocated, and the canopies have gone. Instead of three tracks - the headshunt, the South line and the Peel line - leading out of the station, there is just one. It is rather a shadow of its former self.
Manx trains were always formed of high capacity compartment stock - usually six cars hauled by oe of the neat little 2-4-0T engines built by Beyer Peacock. The ones in service in the mid-1970s were 4, 10, 11, 12, and 13. 4 dated from 1874 and was rebuilt in 1909; 10 to 13 were delivered 1905-10 to replace the old Manx Northern fleet. They had a fair turn of speed. On good track 45mph was not uncommon - not bad for an unsuperheated engine with 45" drivers.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
By the time I got there in the mid-1970s it was more like ten trains a day and 150,000 passengers a day.
Now that would be crowded Almost as many passengers as Victoria or Waterloo on three narrow-gauge platforms...
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
By the time I got there in the mid-1970s it was more like ten trains a day and 150,000 passengers a day.
Now that would be crowded Almost as many passengers as Victoria or Waterloo on three narrow-gauge platforms...
LOL - I meant 150,000 a season, which averages out at about a thousand a day. The first train out of Douglas used to be very busy with day-trippers to Ballasalla, Castletown, Port St Mary and Port Erin. In the late 70s it would often load eight or nine cars - 400-500 passengers - and be banked up to Keristal. The banking locomotive would then drop back to Douglas and follow with a relief train - a six car set - about forty minutes later. That was TT week which was sort of organised Bedlam on the Manx railway system. These days the loadings do not seem to peak so sharply, and the Tourist season is longer. Usual practice seems to be three/four cars on most trains; but there is usually a pair of spare carriages handy at both Douglas and Port Erin in case loadings exceed expectations.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
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Posted
I have never been to the Isle of Man. Sad, really, as I would love the railways, especially the Beyer Peacock 2-4-0Ts. (I also like coastal scenery, castles and things Celtic and Norse, so it's inexplicable that I haven't been there yet!)
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Lunatics and monsters underneath my bed' ('Totem', Rush)
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
I have never been to the Isle of Man. Sad, really, as I would love the railways, especially the Beyer Peacock 2-4-0Ts. (I also like coastal scenery, castles and things Celtic and Norse, so it's inexplicable that I haven't been there yet!)
There is still a boat train to Heysham for the IoM ferry if you feel so inclined. A lot of people seem to fly these days and there is a halt near Ronaldsway Airport. There is quie a bit of information about the Isle of Man Railway at http://www.iomsrsa.com and the timetable is posted on the IOM Transport website.
The Beyer Peacock 2-4-0T design has a long history. The Manx design is a variant on some 2-4-0T built for a 3'6" gauge system in Norway. They also bear a strong resemblance to the standard gauge 4-4-0Ts Beyer Peacock built for the Metropolitan Railway in 1863. The Manx version of the design came in three versions and fifteen of them were delivered between 1873 and 1926. A fair amount of rebuilding went on over the years, mainly of the small boiler locomotives some of which were rebuilt with larger boilers from 1908 onwards. The oldest locomotive in service - No. 4 Loch - is one of the rebuilds. They are neat little locomotives, and were adequate for the Island systems needs. The only time they considered anything larger was in the late 1940s when they asked Beyer Peacock to prepare 2-6-2T and 2-4-2T designs, but none were ordered once traffic returned to pre-War levels.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
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Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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daviddrinkell
Shipmate
# 8854
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:
I have never been to the Isle of Man. Sad, really, as I would love the railways, especially the Beyer Peacock 2-4-0Ts. (I also like coastal scenery, castles and things Celtic and Norse, so it's inexplicable that I haven't been there yet!)
Dear me! Drop everything, book today!
On second thoughts, I don't think this is the best time of year to experience the Isle of Man railways. A Bank Holiday in the Spring is great, because then you get the added bonus of the Groudle Glen Railway.
But you should definitely go! It's a great place. Some excellent eating places too - especially if Howarth's at Ballasalla is still there.
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David
Posts: 1983 | From: St. John's, Newfoundland | Registered: Dec 2004
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
I'll add my endorsement to David's comments, with the rider that you should not expect a cup of tea and a bun at any of the tourist traps on the Island. When we were there in 2007, we were very suprised by the way that it contradicted one of my father's dictums on running a successful tourist attraction. He agreed with the comments of a W & LLR colleague who once observed that, to run a successful tourist attraction, all one needed was a car park (preferably free), a tea room and toilets. The attraction itself was purely a bonus!
Be that as it may, (and there does appear to be some truth in it; dad was chairman of the W&LLR for 35 years and it doesn't appear to be doing too badly on it) the Isle of Man doesn't appear to have got hold of the idea. Very few of the tourist destinations have anywhere that you can get a cup of tea or, indeed, refreshments of any sort. We were startled to find that The House of Manannan, in Peel, the Island's newest tourist attraction in 2007 (it had only opened that Easter) had no cafe / tea room of any description. Given that it had been purpose-built to be amongst the island's premier tourist attractions, the omission of a tea room seemed gross in the extreme.
So, go prepared! The railways are fun (particularly the Manx Electric Railway, if you get into conversation with the Motorman, but that's another story!), but tea and buns hard to come by.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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daviddrinkell
Shipmate
# 8854
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
I'll add my endorsement to David's comments, with the rider that you should not expect a cup of tea and a bun at any of the tourist traps on the Island. When we were there in 2007, we were very suprised by the way that it contradicted one of my father's dictums on running a successful tourist attraction. He agreed with the comments of a W & LLR colleague who once observed that, to run a successful tourist attraction, all one needed was a car park (preferably free), a tea room and toilets. The attraction itself was purely a bonus!
Be that as it may, (and there does appear to be some truth in it; dad was chairman of the W&LLR for 35 years and it doesn't appear to be doing too badly on it) the Isle of Man doesn't appear to have got hold of the idea. Very few of the tourist destinations have anywhere that you can get a cup of tea or, indeed, refreshments of any sort. We were startled to find that The House of Manannan, in Peel, the Island's newest tourist attraction in 2007 (it had only opened that Easter) had no cafe / tea room of any description. Given that it had been purpose-built to be amongst the island's premier tourist attractions, the omission of a tea room seemed gross in the extreme.
So, go prepared! The railways are fun (particularly the Manx Electric Railway, if you get into conversation with the Motorman, but that's another story!), but tea and buns hard to come by.
Maybe the reason is that there are still a fair number of old fashioned tea-shops dotted around, in the towns anyway. I remember nice ones in Ramsay and Castletown, and of course Douglas is in many respects a 1960s seaside resort caught in a time-warp (and none the worse for that).
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David
Posts: 1983 | From: St. John's, Newfoundland | Registered: Dec 2004
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
That's a fair point, David, but I fancy that my observation still stands.
I suspect that it has something to do with many of the major tourist attractions on the Island being virtually government departments. There seems to be that lack of enterprise that one tends to associate with the Civil Service in this country. Yes, I grant you, there are places that one can get tea and a bun within a few minutes walk of the tourist traps, but you would expect a tourist trap on the mainland to want the tea and buns revenue to go to them, not some other teashop. Clearly government departments don't have to worry about making money.
Symptomatic of this (at least in 2007) was that the cafe in Douglas station actually had no links with the IoMSR at all; it was simply a private operator that happened to occupy part of the station building. And wasn't open at weekends ...
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
<snip>
So, go prepared! The railways are fun (particularly the Manx Electric Railway, if you get into conversation with the Motorman, but that's another story!), but tea and buns hard to come by.
But I do remember having some really nice ice cream at the Douglas train station!
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I've never been to the IoM. But I believe that The House of Manannan is, in fact, the old Peel Station building.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
You've got to have a tea shop. Otherwise there's nowhere to leave the women and they'll grumble about it being cold, wet, and why does anyone want to look at a load of dirty, smoky and oily engines when they could go shopping.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I've never been to the IoM. But I believe that The House of Manannan is, in fact, the old Peel Station building.
Somehow, I think not. The building that we visited in 2007 gave every impression of having been completed in the last 12 months (ie, modern materials, etc ~ the presence of scaffolding was a bit of a hint, as well). It may well stand on, or very close to, the old station building, but I am 95% certain it was purpose designed and built to house the new attraction.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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daviddrinkell
Shipmate
# 8854
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
That's a fair point, David, but I fancy that my observation still stands.
I suspect that it has something to do with many of the major tourist attractions on the Island being virtually government departments. There seems to be that lack of enterprise that one tends to associate with the Civil Service in this country. Yes, I grant you, there are places that one can get tea and a bun within a few minutes walk of the tourist traps, but you would expect a tourist trap on the mainland to want the tea and buns revenue to go to them, not some other teashop. Clearly government departments don't have to worry about making money.
Symptomatic of this (at least in 2007) was that the cafe in Douglas station actually had no links with the IoMSR at all; it was simply a private operator that happened to occupy part of the station building. And wasn't open at weekends ...
I'm sure you're right. On the Isle of Man, a further consideration might be that since it's such a small place, the people in government might also have an interest in the aforesaid tea-shops.
I too remember the cafe at Douglas Station being closed just when I needed it. Nice when it was open though....
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David
Posts: 1983 | From: St. John's, Newfoundland | Registered: Dec 2004
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I've never been to the IoM. But I believe that The House of Manannan is, in fact, the old Peel Station building.
Here you are! Sorry the important bit is at the bottom
Hey ho! Wrong again. I ought to be used to this by now.
Apologies, BT.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
The Isle of Man Railway's ancillary operations have declined seriously since Tynwald took over. I remember Douglas Station in 1977 as having a cafe, gift shop, and a significant amount of parking. Motorcycles tended to be parked under cover on the old Peel line platform, and cars disappeared somewhere over in the direction of the former freight yard.
Unfortunately since nationalisation Douglas station has been heavily rationalised without much thought being given to its main function. Loosing the freight yard first to bus parking then to the supermarket was probably the greatest misfortune. However, the removal of the platform canopies, the butchering of the old booking hall interior and various other horrors have not benefitted the railway. The management that was in place 1979-94 was not preservation orientated, and there was another glitch of that nature in the mid-00s.
The old Douglas Station was too big, but they made a right mess of rationalising it. The biggest cock-up has been the loss of car parking. I am sure this has had a negative effect on passenger numbers. Surely it would not have been beyond the wit of man to have incorporated more car parking into the redevlopment of the carriage shed and frieght yard sites, but it seems that making best use of the railway as a tourist attraction was a pretty low priority to both DTT management and the developers.
In fairness, I should point out that the track, locomotives and the fifteen or so carriages still in use are in better shape than they used to be. However, the atmosphere, if not the actual historical structures of many of the surviving stations have been seriously altered if not actually lost.
PD
[ 03. December 2009, 04:10: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
I would have to say that I was quite taken aback by what we found at Douglas when we visited in 2007. Having seen some of Ivo Peters' footage of the IoMR dating from the 50's and 60's, I had a pretty fair idea of what Douglas station had been like. Seeing the butchered remains came as quite a shock.
Whilst we were there, my father, my son and myself discussed the predicament that the railway finds itself in. A volunteer preservation outfit of some sort is not really viable, given that the population of the island is clearly not large enough to supply all the voluntary labour that would be required, which means that volunteers would have to come from the mainland. It isn't the sort of thing you can easily do as a day trip ...
We also considered whether there was any possibility that parts of the railway system might be re-opened and concluded that the realistic answer was "No". Without a function as a freight carrier, there could be no justification for re-opening lines and it seemed to us that carriage of freight by rail was simply not going to happen. Mines traffic has ceased and, again, one cannot envisage that returning. Road transport is the 'in' thing these days and that seems unlikely to change in the short term. And tourism alone could never justify the capital expenditure that would be needed.
Which is sad, because it seemed to me that the Northern route had a lot to commend it scenically ~ I would have loved to be able to ride on the coastal stretch on the west of the island heading for Ramsey. I guess I will just have to dream.
One particular omission comes to mind ~ one could not obtain a satisfactory history of the railways of the Isle of Man anywhere, not even in the Railway Museum. I know that Middletown Press published a number of volumes of history of the railways on the island, but I understand that these have all been out of print for many years. Can anybody tell me where I could obtain anything on the history of any part of the Isle of Man railway systems?
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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daviddrinkell
Shipmate
# 8854
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
....one could not obtain a satisfactory history of the railways of the Isle of Man anywhere, not even in the Railway Museum. I know that Middletown Press published a number of volumes of history of the railways on the island, but I understand that these have all been out of print for many years. Can anybody tell me where I could obtain anything on the history of any part of the Isle of Man railway systems?
In 1993 at Port Erin, I bought 'Isle of Man Railways - A Celebration' by Richard Kirkman and Peter van Zeller, which gives accounts of all the railways which are or were on the Island, including the Douglas Horse Tramway, the Steam Railway, the Electric Railway, the Snaefell Railway and many others, now defunct (such as the
Douglas Southern Electric Tramway and the Ramsey Pier Tramway). Only 100 pages, but it contains a lot of interesting stuff, and lots of pictures. It was published by Raven Books, Ravenglass, Cumbria and the ISBN number is 0 9521624 0 7.
[ 05. December 2009, 03:37: Message edited by: daviddrinkell ]
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David
Posts: 1983 | From: St. John's, Newfoundland | Registered: Dec 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Slight diversion on the last two posts, but I've a fairly clear recollection of seeing a set of photographs of a model of the IoM system. This would have been sometime in the sixties I think, and it may have been based in Manchester.
Obviously it did not replicate the entire island in 4mm scale, but it was built to the basic geography of the system as it then was. The main stations had the same layouts as their prototypes and all the key structures were modelled. Sadly, although I've seen the IoM now from land, sea and sky, I've never actually landed on it. But my memory of the model of the four platform station with imposing buildings has stuck, particularly in its contrast with the typical narrow gauge stations elsewhere in Britain.
From the photographs, it was an impressive model, and one wonders how long it survived and what happened to it. It stuck in the memory partly because of the quality, and partly because of the idea of a model of a self contained system, with its own branches etc. The only systems comparable in the British Isles were on the Isle of Wight or possibly the Donegal.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Almost certainly right, the person in charge seems to be Jim Lawton (scroll down) and the year was 1964, however there appears to be another attempt on the go right now.
Jengie
[ 05. December 2009, 13:12: Message edited by: Jengie Jon ]
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
I would have to say that I was quite taken aback by what we found at Douglas when we visited in 2007. Having seen some of Ivo Peters' footage of the IoMR dating from the 50's and 60's, I had a pretty fair idea of what Douglas station had been like. Seeing the butchered remains came as quite a shock.
Whilst we were there, my father, my son and myself discussed the predicament that the railway finds itself in. A volunteer preservation outfit of some sort is not really viable, given that the population of the island is clearly not large enough to supply all the voluntary labour that would be required, which means that volunteers would have to come from the mainland. It isn't the sort of thing you can easily do as a day trip ...
We also considered whether there was any possibility that parts of the railway system might be re-opened and concluded that the realistic answer was "No". Without a function as a freight carrier, there could be no justification for re-opening lines and it seemed to us that carriage of freight by rail was simply not going to happen. Mines traffic has ceased and, again, one cannot envisage that returning. Road transport is the 'in' thing these days and that seems unlikely to change in the short term. And tourism alone could never justify the capital expenditure that would be needed.
Which is sad, because it seemed to me that the Northern route had a lot to commend it scenically ~ I would have loved to be able to ride on the coastal stretch on the west of the island heading for Ramsey. I guess I will just have to dream.
Strangely, the Peel line just won't quite die. The trackbed is safeguarded, and once in a while the idea of relaying it comes up. The only major missing stucture is the bridge at the west end of St. John's. The bus service between Douglas and Peel is one of the most intensive on the island, so my hunch is that the passenger traffic is there, but would it be enough to justify the investment?
The Ramsey line, although highly scenic between St John's and Michael/Ballaugh, was really surplus to requirements after 1958. The MER's direct route up the coasttook the bulk of the Douglas-Ramsey traffic, and buses handled the Peel-Ramsey traffic once walking fell out of favour.
The Port Erin line was always the busiest, so it was logical to retain it. However, I suspect it would benefit from a clearer vision of what it is actually there to do. DTT alternates between treating it as a tourist attraction, and as an integral part of the Island's transportation system. On the whole it has to be said that it is primarily a tourist attraction, but it can (and does) have a public transit function. Ideally the railway would operate all year round. The diesels would take care of a limited winter passenger service - after all Tesco is right next to the station in Douglas - operating primarily from Port Erin, Port St Mary, and Castletown into Douglas, Steam would work the more intensive Easter to October tourist service.
To achieve this the railway needs to finish the rebuild of the railcars - the former CDRJC 19 and 20. (BTW, the diesel locomotives are unsuitable as they have no train heating equipment.) The management also needs to have about 21 carriages in good condition for peak season loadings.
Lastly, there needs to be a greater appreciation of the heritage side of the railway from the Department of Tourism and Transport. Douglas station was in poor shape the last time I saw it, and Port Erin, although substantially intact needed a repaint and a general tidy up. Also, when the opportunity arises, the management really does need to start undoing some of the damage at Douglas. A good start would be reinstating the old bothy - the grounded body of coach N41 - in front of the works. The installation of a platform fact along the new southern edge of the station would help tidy that side of the station up too. The removal of the canopies was really unfortunate. To have kept them would have made the loss of platform six and the old freight yard less visible. The old carriage shed was full of holes as long ago as 1979, so its removal, and the construction of a new one was probably inevitable. The resiting, whilst unfortunate, did allow the construction of a much needed central maintenance facility for the Island's buses.
On the other hand, when I have finished moaning, at least the railway is still open. There were times in the 60s and 70s when it looked as though the Isle of Man Railway would not make it.
A final not on volunteers. When the railway company was still in charge, volunteers were welcomed and given not safety related maintenance jobs to do. That source of extra help disappeared with Nationalization in 1978 and the subsequent unionisation of the work force.
PD
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
Something for you guys here - should you venture to Japan: "Hotels woo train spotters". ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
How does one book?
Perhaps in the lift the different floors are
1
O
S
HO
TT3
N
Z
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley J:
Something for you guys here - should you venture to Japan: "Hotels woo train spotters".
When I lived in Silver Spring, Maryland, my apartment overlooked a stretch of old Baltimore & Ohio track that carries CSX freight and Amtrak passenger traffic and that runs parallel to the Washington, DC Metro Red Line. I spent many a glorious afternoon trainspotting out on my balcony. I had no trouble sleeping either.
And as I previously mentioned, my apartment in Pittsburgh was in the old Pennsylvania Station and overlooked the bridge on which tracks crossed the Allegheny River and led into the station.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Perhaps in the lift the different floors are
1
O
S
HO
TT3
N
Z
Not in a British hotel. The middle floor would be 00. Mind you, if it was a posh boutique hotel, it would be EM or even Scalefour.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Wesley J
Silly Shipmate
# 6075
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Posted
I guess the rooms on the Z floor might be somewhat on the smallish side. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)
Posts: 7354 | From: The Isles of Silly | Registered: May 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Perhaps in the lift the different floors are
1
O
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HO
TT3
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Z
Not in a British hotel. The middle floor would be 00. Mind you, if it was a posh boutique hotel, it would be EM or even Scalefour.
You could have 16mm/foot narrow gauge at the top (using 32mm or 45mm gauge track) and T Gauge which is about half the size of Z at the other end!
(sorry, can't find a non-commercial link for T Gauge)
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
I guess the rooms on the Z floor might be somewhat on the smallish side.
Not necessarily. The rooms could all be the same size - which means you could get a complete town in the Z gauge room and only one chair in the Gauge 1 room. If rooms are all charged at the same rate, that would make the "per person" rate much cheaper in the Z gauge room.
But - would the guests book and check-in according to scale? And we all know that HO/OO stuff is cheaper than the smaller and bigger scales!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I was assuming this was a Japanese hotel.
In the UK there's the question whether P4, Scalefour ,EM and OO are different floors or different price levels on the same floor, with OO definitely the budget rooms without breakfast. Perhaps like various varieties of Presbyterians, the proprietor will have to conceal the existence of each other from the P4 and Scalefour guests.
But I was also assuming it's the views of the trains that are the different scales, not the sizes of the rooms.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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