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Source: (consider it) Thread: Heaven: The SoF Railway Enthusiasts' Thread
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

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Mmm, but that was all legal and above-board - which I suggest Enoch's jauntings weren't!

Mind you, I several times walked through Highgate Tunnel (Great Northern and Underground, but never used as such and closed since the early 1970s). And I nearly killed myself exploring the derelict Glasgow Botanic Gardens station, again in tunnel, in 1976. I was walking through it, in the dark, without a torch, and no-one knew where I was. At one point I tripped - if I'd fallen and broken my leg, the consequences aren't worth thinking about!

One point: is the network truly shut down on Christmas Day, or might one suddenly encounter an engineering train? Could be awkward!!!

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Enoch
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# 14322

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Your suspicions are correct. Nor did I pay anyone £15 + £2 for parking.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Darllenwr
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# 14520

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For those (I suspect few) who are taken by such things, there are a number of railway tunnels around these parts that can be explored without having to worry about passing trains. The Morlais tunnel (on the old LNWR Heads of the Valleys Railway) on the edge of Merthyr is, apparently, passable without any special precautions ~ I say 'apparently' because I met one of the locals whilst walking near the lower tunnel mouth who told me that he regularly used it as a short cut from the Pant area to where we were walking (near to Cefn Coed). Obviously, there are no trains around (line closed and lifted in 1964 ...)

Similarly, the Croespenmaen tunnel near Blackwood can be walked without concern. The line through that tunnel was closed more recently (around 1988). Other examples abound.

Sadly, the Blaenrhondda tunnel is, as far as I am aware, impassable. I believe the one end is blocked, possibly by a landslide. Perhaps somebody can fill in extra details?

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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!

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Enoch
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# 14322

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There's one on the Bristol to Bath cycle path which uses the former Midland route out to Mangotsfield, that you can ride through and is lit. There is also another on the cycle track along part of the old line from Yatton to Cheddar. It's just south of Winscombe.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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There's a good cycle tunnel on the C2C route from Plymouth to North Devon. It has a kink in the middle and a very uneven floor, so if you walk or cycle it you need bike lights or a torch. That's unless they've finally got around to lighting it permanently. It would ruin the atmosphere if they did. Going through that tunnel was a favourite family outing when the boys were young.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Garden Hermit
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# 109

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I'm just waiting to play with God's train set in the sky.

Love trains especially the ones that break down. Was on the first Gas Turbine on the Great Western which broke down at Swindon 1953 and had to be replaced by steam.

And travelling across Europe when suddenly the Conductor's comments are no longer translated into English because he doesn't know what 'cracked axle' is in English...although we all know what sounds like Kaput means.

I always travel First Class, - its the only way to travel whatever it costs.

Pax et Bonum

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Wesley J

Silly Shipmate
# 6075

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quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Spouse:
Changing the subject, did anyone see the repeat of the 1995 BBC Great Railway Journeys yesterday, where Victoria Wood travelled from Crewe along the Cumbrian Coast, through Scotland and back via Whitby, the NYMR and York? (available on iPlayer - in the UK - for the next week)

Interesting to see the last days of Regional Railways and the running down of the system and stations. I found the section on Carnforth particularly fascinating. She was discussing with a former extra in Brief Encounter how tourists would enjoy coming to the station if it could be revived. That was the year before the Carnforth Railway Station Trust was formed, which in turn led to the construction of the visitor centre and 'Brief Encounter' cafe, which I have visited several times and recommend most highly. [Cool]

Somewhat depressing as a film I found, but an interesting documentation as such, as you're saying. Thanks for the hint!

What was most disturbing however is that it seems they blew it up to 16:9 when the original was clearly filmed in 4:3, resulting in rather distorted images. [Ultra confused]

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Be it as it may: Wesley J will stay. --- Euthanasia, that sounds good. An alpine neutral neighbourhood. Then back to Britain, all dressed in wood. Things were gonna get worse. (John Cooper Clarke)

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PD
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# 12436

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Well, slightly nutty model railway activity was on the cards for New Year's Day! I spent the afternoon getting a start on the roadbed for the "G gauge" railway the missus is encouraging me to build in the garden. Most fun I have had in ages - especially when it comes to engineering considerations like where to relocate the muck to when you dig a cutting! Thankfully I have a couple of bridge approach embankments and abutments that will absorb the spoil.

My neck of the woods had a three-foot gauge line over the mountains to Jerome until the 1920s. I am wondering whether that might prove tobe sufficient prototype inspiration or whether my beloved Manx and Irish narrow gauge will get a look-in too.

PD

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
I always travel First Class, - its the only way to travel whatever it costs.

Due to the vagaries of ticketing on our beloved National Express East Anglia, first class sometimes works out cheaper than standard! But it's not very special, I'm afraid - you still have to pay for your coffee.

I once went to Brighton on the old Brighton Belle - now that was proper first class!

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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Well, slightly nutty model railway activity was on the cards for New Year's Day! I spent the afternoon getting a start on the roadbed for the "G gauge" railway the missus is encouraging me to build in the garden. Most fun I have had in ages - especially when it comes to engineering considerations like where to relocate the muck to when you dig a cutting! Thankfully I have a couple of bridge approach embankments and abutments that will absorb the spoil.

My neck of the woods had a three-foot gauge line over the mountains to Jerome until the 1920s. I am wondering whether that might prove tobe sufficient prototype inspiration or whether my beloved Manx and Irish narrow gauge will get a look-in too.

PD

Why not be eclectic, Father? Though it is slightly worrying that a bishop should be building a model railway: parish priests have the wonderful excuse that it's the only patch in their parish that they can control. Surely your diocese is not so lawless that you need to take refuge in such an activity? Though seriously, it seems like a great project and I hope it goes well.

I wish our garden was big enough (and the slugs smaller!).

[ 02. January 2010, 14:16: Message edited by: Angloid ]

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
PD
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# 12436

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I have never travelled first class in the UK, though I used to make an effort to bag a seat in the declassified first class section of the old DMUs if I was on a long cross country journey. e.g. Grimsby to Stoke on Trent via Lincoln and Derby. It must be my inner Lutheran coming out.

OTOH, I have taken the sleeping car in both the UK and the USA. Usually for pragmatic reasons - I did not want to loose a day going up to Scotland, or Los Angeles to Austin, TX is a long time to be in Coach.

PD

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Angloid
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I have - perhaps twice in 40 years - travelled 'weekend first', when for the payment of a (comparatively) small fee you are allowed to occupy one of the seats that the 'business community' monopolise Monday - Friday; usually a small proportion of these seats are out of bounds to all but those who pay the full fare. Alan Bennett writes of sitting in one of those seats and being told off by the conductor for 'not being proper First Class', which of course he would be the first to admit that he isn't. In that sense, despite being a first class dramatist and National Treasure.
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Mr. Spouse

Ship's Pedant
# 3353

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I have - perhaps twice in 40 years - travelled 'weekend first', when for the payment of a (comparatively) small fee you are allowed to occupy one of the seats that the 'business community' monopolise Monday - Friday; usually a small proportion of these seats are out of bounds to all but those who pay the full fare.

I think the proportion available as advance tickets is better now than it used to be, particularly on the West Coast line that I use most frequently. First isn't quite the good deal it used to be though, now that you can buy off-peak standard tickets on Virgin for half the return fare.

Dr Mrs Spouse and I travelled First only last week - Leamington Spa to Birmingham: £6.80 standard, £9 first. No refreshments on the 30 minute journey, but I did blag a free newspaper!

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Try to have a thought of your own, thinking is so important. - Blackadder

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PD
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# 12436

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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Well, slightly nutty model railway activity was on the cards for New Year's Day! I spent the afternoon getting a start on the roadbed for the "G gauge" railway the missus is encouraging me to build in the garden. Most fun I have had in ages - especially when it comes to engineering considerations like where to relocate the muck to when you dig a cutting! Thankfully I have a couple of bridge approach embankments and abutments that will absorb the spoil.

My neck of the woods had a three-foot gauge line over the mountains to Jerome until the 1920s. I am wondering whether that might prove tobe sufficient prototype inspiration or whether my beloved Manx and Irish narrow gauge will get a look-in too.

PD

Why not be eclectic, Father? Though it is slightly worrying that a bishop should be building a model railway: parish priests have the wonderful excuse that it's the only patch in their parish that they can control. Surely your diocese is not so lawless that you need to take refuge in such an activity? Though seriously, it seems like a great project and I hope it goes well.

I wish our garden was big enough (and the slugs smaller!).

For me building a model railway has something to do with stress levels, and a lot to do with the need to do something creative and my love of trains.

3' and metre gauge was used so extensively for secondary railways in Ireland, Europe and the USA that there is almost too much prototype material out there. Undoubtedly I'll freelance it, but there is bound to be a main prototype lurking in the background somewhere. The oft repeated line from garden railway publications is "X is based on Y that used to run on the West Clare Railway." A general principal of garden railways is that it should look right, not keep the rivet counters happy!

PD

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Angloid
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Fascinating series on BBC2 this week: Michael Portillo armed with a 150-year-old edition of Bradshaw's Railway Guide is crossing the north of England. He's getting a much better reception than he would have when he was a Tory politician... but then he seems like a different person. Much about how the railways have shaped Britain, its cities, and its way of life (for example fish and chips); much hopping off and on the execrable Pacer trains in tactful silence.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Albertus
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# 13356

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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by PD:
Well, slightly nutty model railway activity was on the cards for New Year's Day! I spent the afternoon getting a start on the roadbed for the "G gauge" railway the missus is encouraging me to build in the garden. Most fun I have had in ages - especially when it comes to engineering considerations like where to relocate the muck to when you dig a cutting! Thankfully I have a couple of bridge approach embankments and abutments that will absorb the spoil.

My neck of the woods had a three-foot gauge line over the mountains to Jerome until the 1920s. I am wondering whether that might prove tobe sufficient prototype inspiration or whether my beloved Manx and Irish narrow gauge will get a look-in too.

PD

Why not be eclectic, Father? Though it is slightly worrying that a bishop should be building a model railway: parish priests have the wonderful excuse that it's the only patch in their parish that they can control. Surely your diocese is not so lawless that you need to take refuge in such an activity? Though seriously, it seems like a great project and I hope it goes well.

I wish our garden was big enough (and the slugs smaller!).

For me building a model railway has something to do with stress levels, and a lot to do with the need to do something creative and my love of trains.

3' and metre gauge was used so extensively for secondary railways in Ireland, Europe and the USA that there is almost too much prototype material out there. Undoubtedly I'll freelance it, but there is bound to be a main prototype lurking in the background somewhere. The oft repeated line from garden railway publications is "X is based on Y that used to run on the West Clare Railway." A general principal of garden railways is that it should look right, not keep the rivet counters happy!

PD

Shipmates may like to see this recent photo of, I assume, PD, which i found online....


[Smile] A railway bishop

[ 06. January 2010, 12:32: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Alaric the Goth
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# 511

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I did go on the K&WVR, on December 31st. The Standard ‘4’ tank (80002) was working the ‘Mince Pie Specials’. It was a very cold day, but I still leaned out of the windows!

I paid a visit to the Fleece Inn in Haworth, which now does the most wonderful pub lunches as well as six ( [Yipee] IIRC) different Taylor’s beers.

I also paid a visit to the model railway shop which is along from Haworth station and succumbed to buying an LNER teak sleeping car.

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Angloid
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# 159

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quote:
Originally posted by Alaric the Goth:


I paid a visit to the Fleece Inn in Haworth,

I trust the name alludes to its comfort on a cold day, rather than the prices. [Biased]

Re the previous post, has there ever been a better feelgood movie than The Titfield Thunderbolt?

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Enoch
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# 14322

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Eric Treacy, the photographer, was a real railway bishop and died on Appleby station.

I'd like to have a 14XX that I could drive along the roads.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
I'd like to have a 14XX that I could drive along the roads.
Mmm, but I don't think it was a real one in "The Titfield Thunderbolt" [Disappointed]

And how would you steer it? It's like a guided busway in reverse!

[ 06. January 2010, 22:27: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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PD
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# 12436

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
I'd like to have a 14XX that I could drive along the roads.
Mmm, but I don't think it was a real one in "The Titfield Thunderbolt" [Disappointed]

And how would you steer it? It's like a guided busway in reverse!

The railway line to my home town was never intended to terminate there, and ended rather abruptly with a buffer stop right by the fence that separated the road from railway property. Anyway, a few times over the last 160 years some poor unfortunate on the branch train has misjudged his stopping distance and come to rest in the middle of the road. A ten years ago Railtrack installed a new buffer stop about a carriage length further up the line than the old one complete with all sorts of retarders in the hopes that the next one won't get as far as the fence and be easier to drag out!

PD

[ed. for silly typo]

[ 07. January 2010, 16:32: Message edited by: PD ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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Conversely, the late David Smith in his "Tales of the Glasgow & South Western Railway" told of a siding at a wayside station which had no buffer-stops. Over the years so many trains had over-run that they had established a nice set of grooves on which the shunter could place several wagons.

One day a driver was in a bit of a hurry when drawing trucks out of the siding, the wheels of the wagons at the back didn't mesh with the ends of the rails, and they ended up demolishing the side of the goods shed!

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PD
Shipmate
# 12436

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Sidings (spurs to the US contingent) often do not receive as much attention as they should. I remember being at Santon, Isle of Man about thirty years ago watching a train crew tentatively fishing a couple of ballast wagons out of a siding using a couple of flat wagons as their fishing rod. I was somewhat bemused by the whole operation, and, being nosy, I asked them what they were up to. They informed me that they were afraid that the weight of the locomotive would spread the track as the sleepers were rotten.

Thankfully almost all of the IMR has been relaid since then. The worst humiliation, for a railway that used to pride itself on some pretty smart running, was the 20mph speed limit temporarily imposed in the early 1980s. 25 years of minimal maintenance had finally caught up with the track! I remember the IMR's passenger trains running fairly quickly for a narrow gauge operation. 30-35mph was fairly common between Castletown and Port St Mary. This was quite a contrast for the rather ginger approach coming down Port Soderick bank into Douglas, where the handbrakes would be rubbing all the way. There was no continuous vacuum/air brake in use at the time as Manx Law did not require it!

PD

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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!

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Lord Pontivillian
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# 14308

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Conversely, the late David Smith in his "Tales of the Glasgow & South Western Railway" told of a siding at a wayside station which had no buffer-stops. Over the years so many trains had over-run that they had established a nice set of grooves on which the shunter could place several wagons.

One day a driver was in a bit of a hurry when drawing trucks out of the siding, the wheels of the wagons at the back didn't mesh with the ends of the rails, and they ended up demolishing the side of the goods shed!

There were several occasions when the Buffer-stops were not enough to stop trains on the Stourbridge town branch....the picture that I have seen is quite impressive, sadly I have no link to it as I cannot find it online.

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The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.

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Enoch
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# 14322

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Because the various narrow gauge lines in England and Wales were often light railways, we're not used to the idea of high speeds on them or their having big engines. But in South Africa, full sized engines pulled huge trains at express speeds on 3' 6" track.

I'd like to have a 14XX that I could drive along the roads.

If I'm not allowed to dream of that because of the steering problem, can anyone give me a Sentinel steam lorry or a Doble?

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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PD
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# 12436

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English narrow gauge railways tended to be small and local. The Lynton and Barnstaple was the longest - 19.5 miles - but geography and gauge militated against fast running.

Ireland got closer to the idea of regional narrow gauge networks with the County Donegal and the Lough Swilly Railways. The Donegal's trains certainly managed some decent speeds. I have seen the CDRJC Class 5 2-6-4T quoted as being capable of hauling a 230T train at an average of 35mph - which was respectable speed gven what secondary standard gauge lines in Ireland were doing at the time. No doubt the only occasion they got to do this was hauling the Hibernians or the Orangemen to 'Derry.

The Isle of Man Railway could manage some pretty fast running as they felt it necessary to impose a speed limit of 45mph - which suggests that the Beyer Peacock 2-4-0T were capable of more. I once clocked No.4 Loch at 37mph - not bad for a (then) 105 year old locomotive, with 45 inch drivers and no superheater.

However, the basic problem with British and Irish narrow gauge was that it never got mainline enough for all out speed and haulage to be a real issue. The three foot, metre and "Cape" Gauges all offer the possibility of heavy haulage and considerable speed. In the case of the 36" gauge White Pass and Yukon, they did a pretty credible job as a heavy mineral hauler in the 1960s and 1970s using modern diesel locomotives. They also had some pretty brutal looking Mikados - like the D&RGW narrow sections. The D&RGW K37 2-8-2s got their classification because their power output was 37,000lbs - roughly midway between a GWR 28xx and a BR Standard 9F. The biggest narrow gauge engines in Ireland were the 4-8-0 tender and 4-8-4T owned by the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway, which put out something over 21,000lbs of tractive effort. However, the trip to Burtonport was a slow one!

PD

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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Although not quite on the scale of the American operations being described, the Portuguese metre-gauge system out of Porto (Trindade) must have been quite impressive. I only knew it in diesel days, and now it's become a standard-gauge light rail system. But in its heyday it was a fairly intensively-worked commuter system, with large Henschel 4-6-4T locos pulling trains of bogie stock. They went around 1970 I think.

Very different from the bucolic Portuguese branch lines!

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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Sorry, 2-8-2Ts instead!
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3rdFooter
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# 9751

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Instead of '3rdFooter', I have taken to ending my post '3F'.

While not the original itention, I have associated myself with this locomotive

I feel quite pleased about this association. It seems appropriate for a christian and an ordinand.

3F

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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom

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balaam

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The 30th Jan Yorkshire meet will be including the National Railway museum.

Just so you know.

Talking of the Railway Museum, I preferred it when Locomotion was not in there, but on the platform at Darlington Station. Heritage should be out where the people have access, not shut away in museums, even if they are free.

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Mr Clingford
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Is it OK to mention the TV programme Top Gear? Last night BBC2 showed again their '1949 Race' with the Tornado. It was very enjoyable, especially the blackened Jeremy Clarkson shovelling coal. The locomotive was fantastic.

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daviddrinkell
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quote:
Originally posted by PD:
English narrow gauge railways tended to be small and local. The Lynton and Barnstaple was the longest - 19.5 miles - but geography and gauge militated against fast running.

Ireland got closer to the idea of regional narrow gauge networks with the County Donegal and the Lough Swilly Railways. The Donegal's trains certainly managed some decent speeds. I have seen the CDRJC Class 5 2-6-4T quoted as being capable of hauling a 230T train at an average of 35mph - which was respectable speed gven what secondary standard gauge lines in Ireland were doing at the time. No doubt the only occasion they got to do this was hauling the Hibernians or the Orangemen to 'Derry.

The Isle of Man Railway could manage some pretty fast running as they felt it necessary to impose a speed limit of 45mph - which suggests that the Beyer Peacock 2-4-0T were capable of more. I once clocked No.4 Loch at 37mph - not bad for a (then) 105 year old locomotive, with 45 inch drivers and no superheater.

However, the basic problem with British and Irish narrow gauge was that it never got mainline enough for all out speed and haulage to be a real issue. The three foot, metre and "Cape" Gauges all offer the possibility of heavy haulage and considerable speed. In the case of the 36" gauge White Pass and Yukon, they did a pretty credible job as a heavy mineral hauler in the 1960s and 1970s using modern diesel locomotives. They also had some pretty brutal looking Mikados - like the D&RGW narrow sections. The D&RGW K37 2-8-2s got their classification because their power output was 37,000lbs - roughly midway between a GWR 28xx and a BR Standard 9F. The biggest narrow gauge engines in Ireland were the 4-8-0 tender and 4-8-4T owned by the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway, which put out something over 21,000lbs of tractive effort. However, the trip to Burtonport was a slow one!

PD

What a shame that none of the Swilly monsters survived! (Or, indeed, the system iteslf).

With regard to length and speed, the Romney, Hythe and Dymchurch still puts up some respectable performances over its 15 mile length - and operates Pacifics and 4-8-2s. In Captain Howey's day, there were some dark tales to be told about demon driving. He once raced Sir Henry Seagrave, the world land-speed record holder, on parallel tracks from Romney to Hythe. There was less road traffic around then, of course, and fewer level crossings! He also had what was described as a motorised roller skate, upon which he once managed Hythe to Romney at an average speed of 60mph - which must have involved periods of over 70.

[ 11. January 2010, 17:10: Message edited by: daviddrinkell ]

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David

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3rdFooter
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# 9751

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Speed shouldn't be an issue with narrow gauge railways within reason, as the South African experience shows. Train stability should be handled more by camber than by width between the wheels. In some respects narrower guages should be better because the bogie will be lighter, so less nearly unsprung mass. (I know, only the wheels/axles are completely unsprung). Less energy bouncing the mass about means a faster train. [Yipee]

Thank Stevenson that Brunel didn't get his way with 7'. Although I thin the Indians used 5' in some places.

Am I going to get a GWR Hell call for this?

3F

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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom

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Enoch
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Although people may be more familiar with the 4F that the LMS adopted and built in bulk, there was also a 3F which was a tender engine numbered in the 43*** series, and a 2F that eventually ended up being renumbered in the 58*** series.

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3rdFooter
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Angloid wrote
quote:
Why not be eclectic, Father? Though it is slightly worrying that a bishop should be building a model railway: parish priests have the wonderful excuse that it's the only patch in their parish that they can control. Surely your diocese is not so lawless that you need to take refuge in such an activity? Though seriously, it seems like a great project and I hope it goes well.
Get your diocese or parish under control. Have one of these.

Here is the inside.

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3F - Shunter in the sidings of God's Kingdom

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
Angloid wrote
quote:
Why not be eclectic, Father? Though it is slightly worrying that a bishop should be building a model railway: parish priests have the wonderful excuse that it's the only patch in their parish that they can control. Surely your diocese is not so lawless that you need to take refuge in such an activity? Though seriously, it seems like a great project and I hope it goes well.
Get your diocese or parish under control. Have one of these.

Here is the inside.

Ooh, I do hope PD incorporates one into his layout. Though probably with High Church Protestant liturgical arrangements. [Biased]
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PD
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# 12436

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quote:
Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
Speed shouldn't be an issue with narrow gauge railways within reason, as the South African experience shows. Train stability should be handled more by camber than by width between the wheels. In some respects narrower guages should be better because the bogie will be lighter, so less nearly unsprung mass. (I know, only the wheels/axles are completely unsprung). Less energy bouncing the mass about means a faster train. [Yipee]

Thank Stevenson that Brunel didn't get his way with 7'. Although I thin the Indians used 5' in some places.

Am I going to get a GWR Hell call for this?

3F

The Russians use 5 foot gauge, which they appear to have gotten from the southern USA somehow. India uses 5'6" as do most mainlines in Spain and Portugal and parts of South America. The Irish use 5'3" as do parts of Australia.

The limit on camber is whether or not vehicles in a train that is stopped on a curve will fall over. There are stories of the 2' gauge Festiniog Railway overdoing the super elevation and having covered wagons overloaded with flour falling over when they stopped on curves. Certainly some of the old photographs from the 1870s show some significant super elevations.

With steam locomotives there are some mechanical limitations involved. With saturated steam, 250rpm was considered about the economical limit. After that coal and water consumption and maintenance costs would begin to go through the roof. With superheated steam, this rises to 300rpm. By the end of steam they were bilding locomotives that could run long mileages at 350rpm without too many ill effects. For example, an LNER A4s, GWR Castles, and Stanier Pacifics would all run long mileages at 85-100mph - or 350-400rpm. "Mallard" running at 125/6mph would have been running at 520 rpm. This is distinctly in the thrashing category.

Taking this into the narrow gauge world. The Cork, Blackrock and Passage Railway had some 2-4-2T with 54" driving wheels which would have been flyers on a suitable route. Mathematically speaking the saturated version should have been capable of sustaining speeds of 40-45 mph. If they had properly designed ports and passages, and superheating that rises to 50-55 mph without excessive coal and water consumption. At a theoretical 350-400 rpm that becomes 56-60mph. That is getting up towards the sort of speeds seen with 42" gauge steam in South Africa.

The Isle of Man Railway's Beyer Peacock engines, which are essentially an 1866 design. Moreover, they have some archaic refinements such as short travel valves and Allen Straight Link motion, which are not be an advantage when running flat out. However, they do have a very well designed "front end" - a fact that would tend to promote fast running. That said, the rumours of them hitting 60 mph on ambulance trains during TT week back in the 1930s, do seem exaggerated to me, as it pencils out to 450rpm. i.e. a performance equivelent to that of an A4 Pacific with modern valve gear, lubrication, kylchap cowl, superheating, and all the other refinements made between 1866 and 1935. However, I am quite prepared to accept 45-50mph absolutely flat out on good track with a light load as this would be comparable in mechanical terms to the performances put in by the saturated steam Aspinall "Atlantics" in the 1899 - which regularly ran atsppeds around 360-380 rpm on the Manchester-Liverpool forty minute expresses. However, with their bigger wheels they were running at 90-95mph.

PD

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Darllenwr
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# 14520

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quote:
Originally posted by 3rdFooter:
Speed shouldn't be an issue with narrow gauge railways within reason, as the South African experience shows. Train stability should be handled more by camber than by width between the wheels. In some respects narrower guages should be better because the bogie will be lighter, so less nearly unsprung mass. (I know, only the wheels/axles are completely unsprung). Less energy bouncing the mass about means a faster train. [Yipee]

Thank Stevenson that Brunel didn't get his way with 7'. Although I thin the Indians used 5' in some places.

Am I going to get a GWR Hell call for this?

3F

I fail to be convinced that the victory of Standard Gauge was not a Pyrrhic one in the end. A number of collisions in the early days demonstrated beyond doubt the greater stability of the Broad Gauge and safety in a collision. Broad Gauge trains were less liable to telescoping (where the buffers / couplings are overridden and one carriage slides inside the next) than their standard gauge equivalents and it is noteworthy that broad gauge trains tended to pull up with carriages in a straight line (the 'desirable condition', usually achieved these days by the use of buckeye couplings or similar) following a collision, where their standard gauge equivalents would be scattered into an untidy heap. Injuries were also significantly lower.

OK, so that is largely anecdotal evidence, but I think you would find that Engineers would sooner adopt a wider (rather than a narrower) gauge for high speed running, given the choice. In this context, consider the Japanese high-speed lines, which are built on standard gauge, whereas their original railway system was (is?) on a narrower gauge.

Narrow gauges come into their own where there are tight bends to be negotiated. Hence Brunel recommended the standard gauge for the Taff Vale Railway, a line whose route was always going to preclude high speeds, but which was also going to be highly curved. Brunel recognised that the broad gauge was not appropriate in this case, even though the Taff Vale would interconnect with his own South Wales Railway.

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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
3. The Kecskemet lines in Hungary - not a tramway but a NG railway, much of it running along the roadside. Again, due for closure any time soon though there are hopes to sell it as a preserved railway. When I saw it about 8 years ago it still had freight, I believe it is passenger-only now. Trains on this and most Hungarian NG lines consist of a diesel shunter and one carriage. The timetable is weird with trains running at about 4 am. Some years ago a part of the line was relaid so it could cross a motorway!
Sadly, this line (and another) closed on 12th December, leaving just one short narrow-guage line in Hungary run by MAV (the State Railways), although there are still a few forestry railways offering passenger services, especially during the summer, and also the Budapest Children's Railway.
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PD
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Narrow Gauge railways in a mainly standard gauge environment do not tend to fare well once road transport begins to become widely available, and the area's roads are improved. Even if freight traffic does not move completely to road transport, it is trucked to the nearest standard gauge railhead which eliminates the narrow to standard gauge transhipment costs. Transporter waggons - to carry standard gauge wagons on the narrow gauge - reduce, but do not eliminate transhipment costs.

PD

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Enoch
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On the news from Hungary, it's sad to hear about yet another example of something interesting coming to an end. I never managed to work out from Google earth whether the motorway crossing was on the level. I like to think that it might have been.


On transporter wagons, the Leek and Manifold had them. I don't remember it. There aren't many people around now who do. My late father knew it well and often talked about it. Unusually, in stead of the narrow gauge wagons being loaded onto standard gauge ones, standard gauge milk tanks were loaded onto narrow gauge wagons, that functioned therefore rather like trolleys. Stability wouldn't have been as alarming as it sounds as even by narrow gauge standards, speeds were very low.

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PD
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:


On transporter wagons, the Leek and Manifold had them. I don't remember it. There aren't many people around now who do. My late father knew it well and often talked about it. Unusually, in stead of the narrow gauge wagons being loaded onto standard gauge ones, standard gauge milk tanks were loaded onto narrow gauge wagons, that functioned therefore rather like trolleys. Stability wouldn't have been as alarming as it sounds as even by narrow gauge standards, speeds were very low.

The Leek and Manifold was the only UK example of narrow gauge transporter wagons on a common carrier railway. The stability issues with the technology usually limit them to around 15mph on 30" or 75cm gauge railways. They can go a little faster - 20mph - on metre gauge lines without stability becoming a headache. On the L & M the speed issue was a dead letter as it was built as a Light Railway which limited them to 15mph anyway.

PD

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Enoch
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I'm not sure how genuine the light railway speed obligations really were, or how rigidly they would have been enforced, bearing in mind that steam engines did not normally have speedometers. Also query whether at that period there was all that effective a method of policing speed on railways anyway. Having to stop frequently to pick up passengers by the railside, open and close gates or proceed across ungated roads at walking pace must have been a more effective restraint.

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Horseman Bree
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The Newfoundland Railway had change-of-gauge operation at the ferry terminal in Port-aux-Basques. Standard gauge cars arrived from the mainland and were remounted on 3' 6" bogies for movement on the 500-mile line. Sometime in the '70s, they decided to go to containers for as much of the traffic as possible, but the line was totally gone in the '80s, so that didn't help much.

The diesels were actually standard-gauge as well, running on 3'6" bogies.

All the passenger equipment, as well as all the freight cars that didn't go off the island were built to 3'6" profiles.

Both the PEI railway and the D&RGW ran a lot of dual gauge trackage, although on PEI this was only for a few years until everything was "standardised". The laying-out of rails, points and frogs for a wye (= triangle for turning around) was fascinating, since somewhere in all of it the third rail had to change sides.

But I doubt this would be practical for transfer to smaller gauges.

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It's Not That Simple

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PD
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# 12436

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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I'm not sure how genuine the light railway speed obligations really were, or how rigidly they would have been enforced, bearing in mind that steam engines did not normally have speedometers. Also query whether at that period there was all that effective a method of policing speed on railways anyway. Having to stop frequently to pick up passengers by the railside, open and close gates or proceed across ungated roads at walking pace must have been a more effective restraint.

Light Railway speeds were enforced largely on the honour system. That said, light railways were careful to publish timetables that conformed to a rate of progress compatable with the 25mph speed limit for standard gauge and the 15 mph speed limit for narrow gauge. For example, the Barton and Immingham Light Railway scheduled its trains between Goxhill and Immingham Dock at roughly 20mph.

PD

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daviddrinkell
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quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
The Newfoundland Railway....

All the passenger equipment, as well as all the freight cars that didn't go off the island were built to 3'6" profiles.

I didn't know that. There are bits and pieces preserved all over the island, including a diesel locomotive and two passenger cars by the Railway and Coastal Museum (the old station) here in St. John's. I'm going to nip out and have a look right now. I'd never noticed before that the loco might have been to a larger scale than the carriages.....

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Gee D
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# 13815

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At the newsagent in the big town (we’re still at the beach) I noticed a magazine called Garden Railways, directed towards larger gauge modellers. I can't recall the publisher, but it was something like Atlantic Publishing.

A very interesting line was constructed in NSW from the main western line, towards the western side of the Blue Mountains, travelling some 32 miles north to Newnes. Newnes was the site of shale mining, oil being extracted from the shale. Gradients of up to 1 in 25 were needed, with 5 chain curves, to negotiate the steep cliffs and descents to the floor of the Wolgan Valley. In about 24 miles, there is a drop of 2200 feet, without any spiral/corkscrew tunnels. No metric specifications are available, sorry. To ensure easy running onto the main line, standard gauge was used, but with Shay locomotives.

A good site is : http://www.infobluemountains.net.au/rail/upper/wolgan-1.htm, (I can’t do hyperlinks, I’m sorry) which has a paper by one of the engineers involved. It describes in detail the difficulties involved. The line was closed when the extraction of oil from shale became uneconomic. Although only 86 miles from Sydney, the location is desolate and extremely rugged.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
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The Link is coming up as an error notice, I'm afraid.

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Gee D
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# 13815

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Try this:

http://www.infobluemountains.net.au/rail/upper/wolgan-1.htm

A comma seems to have crept in to the earlier address. I can cope with Technology to do research, draft documents and so forth. More needs Dlet, 'otherwise engaged' for the evening, or my secretary. If this does not work, google in Newnes Railway, and the site is the top of the list. The Wikipedia site has very little information

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
________________________________________
I never managed to work out from Google earth whether the motorway crossing was on the level. I like to think that it might have been.
________________________________________

Sadly, it wasn't - the track was simply realigned through a new road junction.

For a fascinating video, taken last summer on what was clearly a railway festival day, go on to Youtube and search for: Bugaci kispöfögés 2009 (I can’t get the link to work, I’m afraid).
There is some fascinating "rolling stock" on display! Sadly, the service trains were nothing like so busy - there is a glimpse of one early in the video. The bit under the motorway is the section of track which is markedly better than the rest.

[ 17. January 2010, 08:19: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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