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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Heaven: The SoF Railway Enthusiasts' Thread
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
DD: the locomotives were an adaptation of the EMD (General Motors) standard locos of the time, largely the GP9. The walkways would still have been full width, since that much width was allowed for the standard-gauge boxcars coming over on the ferry, but the height had to be reduced. Still quite a bit more than the passenger cars, as shown here The side skirting was unique, at least for North America, and I think anywhere.
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
Double-posting to add that the skirting may have been necessary to stiffen the frame, since the centre framing would have had to be reduced to allow sufficient space for the diesel, while reducing the overall height. They weren't going to design a whole new diesel for a small order!
And don't forget that the NF-110/210 design was a late entry. The first diesels were built to GM's metre-gauge standards, the same loading gauge as the passenger cars, to allow for use on the branch lines. But I think all of the G8's have been scrapped.
The 1200-hp NF110 1nd 210 were only used on the main line.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Some sad news for shipmates. I understand the Rev Peter Denny - Buckingham Great Central - died shortly after Christmas. This name may not mean anything to railway enthusiasts outside the UK or who are only interested in the full size and not the model version, but he was one of the ablest modellers of his generation, who both wrote and exhibited since the beginning of the fifties.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I haven't seen that name since I used to read the Railway Modeller as a teenager. His models were impressive (at least in print). That's one justification for large vicarages.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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daviddrinkell
Shipmate
# 8854
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Some sad news for shipmates. I understand the Rev Peter Denny - Buckingham Great Central - died shortly after Christmas. This name may not mean anything to railway enthusiasts outside the UK or who are only interested in the full size and not the model version, but he was one of the ablest modellers of his generation, who both wrote and exhibited since the beginning of the fifties.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) I remember reading about his layouts. Wonderful stuff!
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David
Posts: 1983 | From: St. John's, Newfoundland | Registered: Dec 2004
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geroff
Shipmate
# 3882
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Posted
Peter Denny was a real pioneer of model railways. He started out in 00 in 1945. Without people like him smaller scale model railways may not have got off the ground.
I am not sure whether he was Revd Peter then. But it goes to show how much time clergy had when they had single parishes and possibly staff...
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"The first principle in science is to invent something nice to look at and then decide what it can do." Rowland Emett 1906-1990
Posts: 1172 | From: Montgomeryshire, Wales | Registered: Jan 2003
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Mr. Spouse
Ship's Pedant
# 3353
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Posted
Here's a story from the Telegraph about a couple of familiar voices to anyone who has travelled by train in the UK (with short audio sketch):
Britain's most apologetic couple
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Try to have a thought of your own, thinking is so important. - Blackadder
Posts: 1814 | From: Here, there & everywhere | Registered: Sep 2002
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
There is a great poem by (the Christian) poet Steve Turner called "British Rail Regrets" - find it on
http://annedroid-annedroid.blogspot.com/2008_04_01_archive.html. (I hope the link works - I can't do hyperlinks).
By the way, the late Gerard Fiennes, the manager of BR Eastern Region who got sacked for telling the truth (but who kept our beloved East Suffolk line open), tells of a day in the late 1940s at Kings Cross station when everything was coming in an hour or more late, and the announcer going overtime with "We regret to announce" messages.
He went up into her eyrie, seized the microphone, and announced "We regret the late arrival of the at platform 1. This is due to managerial incompetence". He rushed back downstairs and mingled with the public to hear their reaction, hoping that they would be saying, "At last, the truth!" or something similar.
But there was no reaction at all.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Baptist Trainfan
I think this works better. I've used preview post and seems to anyway.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Of course, there was the Bristow cartoon.
Bristow arrives at the station on a beautiful spring morning to be confronted by a sign:
British Rail regrets the will be no trains due to lambs gambolling on the tracks.
[ 19. January 2010, 04:46: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
And there was a letter to the "Times" about ten years ago in which someone heard the announcement that trains would be delayed due to leaves on the line "and furthermore to those leaves still being attached to their trees".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Of course, there was the Bristow cartoon.
Bristow arrives at the station on a beautiful spring morning to be confronted by a sign:
British Rail regrets the will be no trains due to lambs gambolling on the tracks.
That could well be a real scenario. The problem is not the lambs while they are gambolling but what happens if the train hits them. I believe blood on the track is a problem.
I have been held up due to "Sheep on the line".
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Mr. Spouse
Ship's Pedant
# 3353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I have been held up due to "Sheep on the line".
I'll see your sheep and raise you a "cow on the line" ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
What irritates me most about the current apology messages are the attempts at making them personal. "I'm very sorry..." just doesn't work when you know it's a recording.
[ 19. January 2010, 08:37: Message edited by: Mr. Spouse ]
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Try to have a thought of your own, thinking is so important. - Blackadder
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Thst reminds me of three things.
1. Cash machines (ATMs) which say, "Please wait while we count your momey" - giving the impressions of dozens of Munchkins behind the slot licking their fingers as they count out wads of notes.
2. Radio 3 announcers who say, "As there is a short time before the next programme, I shall now play you some music", and then follow it with a recording of an entire symphony orchestra.
3. Buses that go past empty saying, "Sorry, not in service". If they were REALLY sorry, they'd stop and pick me up!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
Can I just say this thread is straying dangerously near general interest.
What happened to the discussion of coupling flanges on the Class IV tenders of the north-east division of the Ahoghill to Skibbereen line in 1954? eh? eh?
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Don't be silly. Everyone knows that was in 1956, not 1954.
PS Couplings are couplings and flanges are flanges but I hope they never meet.
[ 19. January 2010, 10:35: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
Can I just say this thread is straying dangerously near general interest.
What happened to the discussion of coupling flanges on the Class IV tenders of the north-east division of the Ahoghill to Skibbereen line in 1954? eh? eh?
I should be very wary of making comments of this sort ~ I am now seriously contemplating starting a discussion of the virtues of Grondana couplings (as used on the Welshpool and Llanfair) as opposed to the Norwegian 'Chopper' type (used by the Ffestiniog) or the Admiralty Pattern link and pin (various examples; the Sittingbourne and Kemsley comes to mind). It won't take much to set me going ... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
On the standard gauge, you could argue the virtues of 3-link, Buckeye and Instanter (with or without side-chains) ... not to mention the semi-permanent couplings in EMU and Freightliner sets ... and then there's Dellner ...
But are any of them flanged? That is the question.
[ 19. January 2010, 21:00: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Keep it coming ~ we'll soon scare off the sad types who are just 'generally interested'!
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Another curiosity is that on the GWR, followed by the Western region, the lower link on the coupling on the front of an engine was normally hung on a hook on the buffer beam, just next to the left (nearside) buffer. As far as I know, the other three railways did not provide this hook. It seems to have been more usual with them to put the lower link back over the upper one, and attach it to the hook.
Either way, I get the impression that it was regarded as slightly bad form just to let it dangle - a bit like not washing ones milk bottles before putting them out for collection.
But do any shipmates have actual technical knowledge on this important subject? And does anyone know whether BR Standards allocated to the Western Region had this extra hook?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mr. Spouse:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
I have been held up due to "Sheep on the line".
I'll see your sheep and raise you a "cow on the line"
What irritates me most about the current apology messages are the attempts at making them personal. "I'm very sorry..." just doesn't work when you know it's a recording.
And when I was traveling on the Alaska Railroad, I understood that the train would hit a moose on occasion.
Do I win?
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
On the museum line on which I used to drive, we quite often stirred up pheasants, particularly along the stretch near the sewage lagoon for some weird reason. But the silly things would run in front of the train (we were only doing 10 mph anyway) for as much as half a mile, before they would suddenly remember that they were birds and could fly away to the side of the track.
One time, I went onto the front platform of the diesel and counted 6 of them running in front of us - a rather peculiar form of herding, I guess.
Talk about bird brains!
But we never actually ran one down, ISTM.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Coupler nonsense!
The One True Coupler is the Janney Knuckle, fully automatic, provides ample space for the brake line and able to tolerate variations in installation.
It can handle mile-long trains with ease.
If necessary it may be fitted with an anti-climbing device for passenger work.
North American has used it since 1873 and it is standard for interchange, which means it is standard, period. No other coupler need apply.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by jedijudy:
And when I was traveling on the Alaska Railroad, I understood that the train would hit a moose on occasion.
Do I win?
on occasion nothing. it's called The Great Alaska Moose Gooser for a reason. a friend of mine who drives the thing was particular sad when he took out a mama bear last summer.
(and yes, I do watch you all, with some sort of freakish fascination that I probably need serious therapy for.)
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
Coupler nonsense!
The One True Coupler is the Janney Knuckle, fully automatic, provides ample space for the brake line and able to tolerate variations in installation.
It can handle mile-long trains with ease.
If necessary it may be fitted with an anti-climbing device for passenger work.
North American has used it since 1873 and it is standard for interchange, which means it is standard, period. No other coupler need apply.
Overkill for Welsh Narrow Gauge!
Saying that doesn't detract from the value of the coupler for serious load hauling.
That's an interesting point you raise, Enoch, and has set me wondering about coupling design in general. I have gone back to a class of book I don't usually bother with ~ books of photographs. These make it clear that GWR locos (post Churchward) were fitted with a screw-link coupler which was part of the drawhook. A picture of 9F 92220 (built at Swindon) shows the coupling just dangling (ie, not even tidied up onto the drawhook) which suggests that the answer to your question about Western Region BR Standards is probably, 'No'
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
North American narrow-gauge lines simply used a scaled-down version of the mainline Janney design. Same principles but not interchangeable. Though not a problem since the cars weren't interchangeable either.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
What about the D&RGW dual-gauge lines? ISTM that I recall trains actually hauled both kinds of cars across the flat land, on occasion.
And on The Rock, were there idler cars with a coupler of each size, one at each end?
In the PEI case, the two kinds of stock didn't matter, since it was known that the dual-gauge era was to be just a few years.
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
North American narrow-gauge lines simply used a scaled-down version of the mainline Janney design. Same principles but not interchangeable. Though not a problem since the cars weren't interchangeable either.
Now here is yet another example of my ignorance ~ I was not aware that North America had much in the way of narrow gauge. Logical that the Janney coupler should have been used; if it ain't broke, why fix it? Seen from that perspective, the variety of couplers used on British narrow gauge is completely illogical. I cited just three types, all of which use a centre buffer of some description. The Tal-y-llyn Railway (possibly the best-known British narrow gauge line) is different again. Uniquely (as I understand) for British (and possibly any) narrow gauge, they use side buffers and link couplings.
From what I have seen, variations on the link-and-pin theme seem to be the most common system in use on narrow gauge in this country. Lord Pontivillian tells me that the Grondana system (used by the W&L) is not used anywhere else in the UK, which seems extraordinary given the advantages that it has. It seems that we (as in, Gloucester Carriage & Wagon) built rolling stock for export with these couplers, but never used them ourselves. Daft, or what? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
What about the D&RGW dual-gauge lines? ISTM that I recall trains actually hauled both kinds of cars across the flat land, on occasion.
And on The Rock, were there idler cars with a coupler of each size, one at each end?
In the PEI case, the two kinds of stock didn't matter, since it was known that the dual-gauge era was to be just a few years.
Narrow Gauge lines with dual-gauge capability are a separate category. A narrow-gauge car usually can't be interchanged without changing the trucks, in which case the coupler can be changed too. This presumes that the draft gear can support standard-gauge loads.
In reply to Darllenwr, there were the Cape Gauge Newfoundland Railway and Prince Edward Island Railway in Canada, and a number of Three Foot roads in the US. The Denver & Rio Grande Western had the largest of these, in fact as Bree noted it built many of its lines in narrow-gauge first and then standardized them. This is connected with the fact that the Rio Grande was a mountain railroad meant to bridge the passes through the Rockies. However the Rio Grande always had a selection of pure narrow gauge lines, notably the line which became the Cumbres & Toltec Scenic RR and the Durango & Silverton Narrow Gauge RR. These lines were mineral haulers and were never standard gauged.
There is also the White Pass & Yukon RR, the other railroad in Alaska (also British Columbia and the Yukon Territory). It's now a tourist line but it runs trains over the White Pass up to Bennett Lake, the start of the Klondike Trail.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
Quite apart from questions of coupling compatability and strength, and drawbar height, surely one problem with running mixed-gauge trains comes with points (switches).
On plain line dual-gauge railways usually use two rails on one side and a common rail on the other, though on the DRGW I think the narrow-gauge sometimes went in the middle. (There is certainly a photo like that in Beebe & Clegg's "Narrow Gauge in the Rockies", though that may have been on the South Park or the Colorado Southern and I'm not going up into the loft to look at the book!)
But points are a different proposition, and usually tend to revert to using three rails as this needs fewer switch rails. That would slew the NG stock to one side or the other of the centreline of the SG stock - could cause problems.
However I do think that some mixed-gauge shunting (switching) did take place. And I think some shunting locos had two or even three sets of couplers!
In Portugal near Trofa a metre gauge line came from Povoa de Varzim to join the single-track main line north of Porto, stayed in between the rails for a bit and then swung off the other side to go on to Guimaraes. No points involved, though. Today the line from Povoa is closed but the line to Guimaraes has been relaid to standard gauge (actually broad gauge, because that's what is used in Portugal).
I believe that there were some triple-gauge stations in Sweden! Never seen them though I did see a dual-gauge one back in the early 70s.
NB I don't know if the Paris-Lisbon "Sud Express" still runs, but the bogies were changed from standard to broad at the French border. The same happens at the border between Romania and the Ukraine and (I think) between Russia and Mongolia.
[ 20. January 2010, 22:08: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Most UK standard gauge steam engines had screw link couplings. I think they were only given three link ones if they were not vacuum or Westinghouse fitted - which on most lines meant some shunting engines and a few very basic goods engines only.
I'm not aware of anywhere in the UK where it was normal in the modern era to operate mixed gauge trains. The GWR used to have many miles of dual gauge track, but I've a recollection there was a ban in later years on combining both gauges of stock in the same train or using one gauge's engine to pull a train in the other gauge.
Unless in the whole system, one used either four rails or kept the common rail on the same side and turned every engine and wagon to fit, I would have thought it was almost impossible to manage.
For passenger working, the common rail needs to be on the platform side at each station.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
only if you have full-height platforms. Most North American platforms were set low for cheapness and to allow for snowplow operation.
I think Montreal Central is the only Canadian station I have been in where the platforms are at car-floor height.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Even with lower height continental style platforms, I'd have thought there were problems about people getting on and off trains if there is another rail in the way, right where they are going to step down. There would have, at least to be a section of tramway style track so that the rail heads were flush with the ground.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Darllenwr:
quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
North American narrow-gauge lines simply used a scaled-down version of the mainline Janney design. Same principles but not interchangeable. Though not a problem since the cars weren't interchangeable either.
Now here is yet another example of my ignorance ~ I was not aware that North America had much in the way of narrow gauge. Logical that the Janney coupler should have been used; if it ain't broke, why fix it? Seen from that perspective, the variety of couplers used on British narrow gauge is completely illogical. I cited just three types, all of which use a centre buffer of some description. The Tal-y-llyn Railway (possibly the best-known British narrow gauge line) is different again. Uniquely (as I understand) for British (and possibly any) narrow gauge, they use side buffers and link couplings.
From what I have seen, variations on the link-and-pin theme seem to be the most common system in use on narrow gauge in this country. Lord Pontivillian tells me that the Grondana system (used by the W&L) is not used anywhere else in the UK, which seems extraordinary given the advantages that it has. It seems that we (as in, Gloucester Carriage & Wagon) built rolling stock for export with these couplers, but never used them ourselves. Daft, or what?
British narrow gauge systems were generally small and local, so they did not have to worry about interchange - as opposed to transhipment. In Ireland, on the 3' there was universal agreement on use of the Norwegian Chopper, but no-one bothered to standardize coupling centre heights.
In the USA several systems were contiguous. The one that sticks in my head, living in the Southwest is the Denver and Rio Grande, which linked p with the Silverton RR, and the Denver and Rio Grande Southern. Further west, if they had not have kept running out of money, the Nevada, California and Oregon and the Carson and Colorado might have been connected using a third rail over the Virginia and Truckee! If the N-C-O had gotten beyond Lakeview, OR, the Sumpter Valley planned to extend to Prineville, OR, to connect with the N-C-O which planned to pass through there on its way to the Columbia River at The Dalles.
The mileage of three foot gauge in the USA was quite considerable between about 1880 and 1915. Most were standardized in the 1910s and 20s, but some hung on quite remarkably late - the East Broad Top, the Denver and Rio Grande NG mainline from Antonito to Durango together with the Silverton and Farmington branches, the remnant of the old Carson and Colorado between Keeler and Laws, CA.
Moreover NG could crop up in some strange places - for example, one of the commuter serving Boston, MA was 3' gauge! However, it was a relatively early victim of bus competition (1934).
PD
[ 21. January 2010, 05:57: Message edited by: PD ]
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Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I wouldn't call the Rio Grande a "System", it all became part of the Denver & Rio Grande Western RR. In typical North American fashion local roads were taken over by a larger concern, or were used as "front" companies to get a charter and build the line, after which they would be merged into the main road corporation.
When I say interchange, I mean narrow gauge cars could not be simply rolled onto another road and eventually sent across the continent without modifying the trucks and the couplers. The presumption in North American is that any car is suitable for such interchange. That's the lifeblood of railroads here.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
The White Pass & Yukon was one of the early users of demountable containers, partly because of the gauge problem (plus the ocean being in the way!) There were all sorts of car ferries running on both coasts and in the Great Lakes, but there was no point in running narrow gauge cars onto a ferry if they couldn't be run off on to the tracks available at the other end.
In Newfoundland, they opted for changing the trucks on standard-gauge cars, because the clearances existed all the way to the paper mills at Grand Falls and Corner Brook, the only question then being the coupler size. I believe the NF110/210 locos actually had full-size Janneys.
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
It is probably most accurate to call the Denver and Rio Grande in its predominately narrow gauge days a "regional railroad" like the Newfoundland. The Marshall Pass and Tennessee Pass routes were both originally 3' gauge, so when you start adding up the various bits and pieces completed between between 1873 and 1889 when the D&RG started standard gauging its system in earnest, they must have laid close to 800 miles of three foot gauge railroad.
As late as 1960 they were operating 300 miles of three foot gauge railways, and with just the San Juan "mainline," Farmington and Silverton branches still open. IIRC,the Marshall Pass route closed as late as the early 1950s with the remnants being standard gauged.
Another "IIRC," the Denver and Rio Grande Western name originally belonged to a railroad in Utah, and was adopted by the D&RG after either its 1909 bankruptcy, or absorbing one the minor systems in the Denver area. The D&RG(W)'s corporate history is so convoluted that I have never really mastered it.
PD
[ 22. January 2010, 05:36: Message edited by: PD ]
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Aye, the Denver & Rio Grande Western name originally applied to the Utah Division, but the name was first used in 1909 after their first bankruptcy, and was used again after the 1921 bankruptcy. That company went into receivership in 1935 and emerged from bankruptcy in 1947, though they kept the name.
Bankruptcy was extremely common for most North American roads until 1980. 60% of American railroad mileage was bankrupt at one time or another, and this was before Penn Central. Benjamin Graham, Warren Buffett's mentor cut his teeth investing in railroad bonds. He had numerous words of sage advice on the subject in "The Intelligent Investor". He had a set of capitalization rules designed to filter out junk roads so he could focus on worthwhile bonds and consistently earned a good return doing so.
Also, bankruptcy lasting decades was not unusual for railroads before 1980. The New Haven Railroad was the most famous of these. It went bankrupt in 1935 and emerged in 1947. It was a short-haul road in New England and unusually dependent on passengers, so it was the first road to weaken in the 1950's. It went bust in 1961, was taken into Penn Central in 1968, and finally wound up in 1980
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Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
The Bishop's Castle Railway in Wales opened in 1865 without having being approved by the relevant Government inspector. It failed to make a profit, the money soon ran out and the line was never extended.
In January 1867 the railway went into receivership and never left it until it closed in 1935, over 69 years later.
Unlike the Rio Grande etc., it was only 9 miles long!
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
The London Chatham and Dover was in receivership for a time, but 69 years must be a record, not just for the railway sector, but for the whole of the Companies Register.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
With many American railroads often being built in what was effectively frontier lands, they were often under capitalized and financed construction cost over runs with borrowing. In many cases railroads were heavily indebted on opening day. As a result some lines had to be a run away successes almost from day one in order to avoid receivership. In many cases, they lost the race.
The Denver and Rio Grande, considering its high construction costs did well to stay out of bankruptcy as long as it did. It also had to deal with the costs of converting much of ts system from three foot gauge to standard gauge. However, it had the immense advantage of being fairly well capitalized, and of having heavy flows of mineral traffic almost from day one. This kept the wolf from the door until it became part of the Gould empire at a time when it was trying to create a coast to coast railroad.
This coast to coast strategy pushed the D&RG over the edge because it resulted in the D&RG advancing large sums for the construction of the Western Pacific. Although brilliantly surveyed (by a Scot, of course) the WP had some significant cost overruns, and was slow to attract enough traffic to make it pay. The Rio Grande was liable for a fair proportion of the debt, so it went bankrupt and evitably the WP went with it. However, the WP was far cheaper to work than the SP route over Donner due to its 1% ruling grade. Donner by contrast has long stretches of 2.5%. The WP eventually proved itself as a route for heavy oil, mineral, and general merchantize trains, as well as being the original route of the California Zephyr.
The D&RG restructured and survived quite well until the Depression when railroads far more prosperous than the D&RG were going over like nine-pins.
PD
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
The description of the D&RG as being well capitalized and having a heavy flow of traffic parallels the description of the Canadian Northern, which did well so long as it stuck to its Prairie empire, and then fell apart when the builders (Mackenzie and Mann) decided to compete with the Laurier government in building two complete transcontinental lines.
CNor's eastern extension was reasonably practical, apart from the Nova Scotian bits, the western one less so, while the NTR/GTP simply overloaded the market, albeit with a much better actual line.
But the Edwardian success potential was undermined by WW1 and the related cost increases, not to mention the popularisation of the automobile.
I've seen good arguments that, if the building of the railways had boomed a mere ten years later, about half of the Prairie branch lines would not have been built - but that's another story.
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
I have always had a soft spot for the Western Pacific. It's recent corporate history has been full of turnabouts and fun.
For our British visitors, the Western Pacific and the Southern Pacific parallel each other from Salt Lake City to San Francisco. This is the original western leg of the Transcontinental Railroad. As PD said, the SP goes over Donner Pass at a 2.5% grade and the place has snow sheds. Passengers trains were stranded in snow there as late as 1947. The WP was built much later in the early 1900's and had much better grades by going through Feather River Canyon.
The SP's main connection was the Union Pacfic and the WP relied on the Denver and Rio Grande Western and its connections, mainly the Rock Island, Chicago, Burlington & Quincy and the Missouri Pacific.
The UP and SP originally tried to merge in 1913. This was disallowed. In 1980 the UP purchased the Western Pacific and the SP's route was run down. However UP bought the Southern Pacific in 1998 as part of the mergers towards the Big Four. Traffic has been so heavy that both routes are in use and the SP line is being upgraded to take relief. Burlington Northern Santa Fe has trackage rights on both lines now as part of the merger deal to preserve competition.
Like many historic routes its part of the Cinderella story of revival in North American railroading.
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Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Shubenacadie
Shipmate
# 5796
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
NB I don't know if the Paris-Lisbon "Sud Express" still runs, but the bogies were changed from standard to broad at the French border. The same happens at the border between Romania and the Ukraine and (I think) between Russia and Mongolia.
According to last September's Thomas Cook European Timetable, and to seat61.com, there's still a train from Paris as far as Madrid. I think this and the other trains across the French-Spanish border are now all worked by Talgo stock with variable-gauge wheelsets (Wikipedia may have something on this). I seem to remember looking at a Cook's timetable in the 1980s which showed a Moscow-Madrid sleeping car, which must have changed gauge twice.
There are several places on the borders of the former Soviet Union where bogies are changed, both in Europe and in the Far East (as Baptist Trainfan says, the break of gauge on the trans-Mongolian railway is on the southern side of Mongolia, as the Mongolian railways were built under Soviet influence). At the two locations where I've experienced this, passengers remain on board while the carriages are lifted. On the Polish-Belarussian border, the couplings were also replaced; my diary of the trip says 'from screw to buckeye', and I see that if Wikipedia is to be believed, I was almost right (apologies to coupling enthusiasts if I wasn't quite).
There's also a Russian-gauge line that runs well into Poland. According to Wikipedia there are also now some variable-gauge installations on the eastern borders of Poland.
There are still a few places in Europe where transporter wagons are used to convey standard-gauge wagons on NG lines.
And to pick up another subject mentioned above, Cuba has (or used to have) two level crossings on a motorway. A few years ago I went on a railway enthusiasts' package holiday to Cuba and we even had a steam-hauled freight train doing runpasts for us across one -- Cuban motorways have very little road traffic!
SPK: Which of those routes does Amtrak's Chicago-Oakland service use?
Posts: 58 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
Acoording to Wiki, the California Zephyr under Amtrak runs thusly:
quote:
West of Salt Lake City, the route operates on the Western Pacific track (now part of the Union Pacific Railroad) to Wells, Nevada. From Wells to Winnemucca the CZ can operate on either the Western Pacific track or the Southern Pacific as directed by the modern owner of both tracks, the Union Pacific Railroad.[3] West of Winnemucca the modern California Zephyr follows the route of the former City of San Francisco on SP track.
Union Pacific has consolidated the former Central Pacific and Western Pacific lines as one route. The Central Pacific's line over Donner Pass is preferred for passenger trains as it has the heavier grade and is far more scenic. Heavy grades, mountain lakes, snowsheds, Donner Pass has it all. Passenger trains are far less grade averse than freights.
The Santa Fe went so far as to route most of its freights over the low-grade Belen Cutoff through Texas while most of its passenger trains used the original route through Raton Pass in Colorado. This was both more scenic and allowed connections to Denver at La Junta.
The Central Pacific was merged into the Southern Pacific, but the name persists as the route was separate and quite distinct from the rest of SP's operations, which arced from Seattle to San Francisco and then east to New Orleans.
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PD
Shipmate
# 12436
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Posted
The Tweesie which was partly dual gauge had a couple of switchers with "three-centre" couplers that could be moved to line up with both standard gauge and narrow gauge couplers. The East Broad Top's standard gauge switchers had both standard and narrow gauge couplers. Given the way in which the EBT's couplers were arranged their Switchers could only switch narrow gauge cars if facing (IIRC) North.
PD
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