|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Heaven: The SoF Railway Enthusiasts' Thread
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
Tweesie? Is this the "East Tennessee and Western North Carolina Railroad", perchance?
The problem with the EBT couplers sounds like when Tri-ang and Hornby model trains amalgamated in the 1960s. They made a goods truck and a horse box with different couplers at each end. But I'm sure 90% of the time they faced in the wrong direction, necessitating "crane shunting" by hand. You can't do that in real life (yes, I know about coal and ore tipplers, but that's different!)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Strangely Warmed
Apprentice
# 13188
|
Posted
quote:
I think Montreal Central is the only Canadian station I have been in where the platforms are at car-floor height.
Gare du Palais (Quebec City) also has high platforms.
Posts: 19 | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
|
Posted
Thank you. Didn't know that.
"You can't there from here" by train (I live in Moncton). Can't even get to the ferry at Levis by train any more.
Hence my comment about "stations I have been to"
[ 26. January 2010, 21:37: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]
--------------------
It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
Tweesie? Is this the "East Tennessee and Western North Carolina Railroad", perchance?
The problem with the EBT couplers sounds like when Tri-ang and Hornby model trains amalgamated in the 1960s. They made a goods truck and a horse box with different couplers at each end. But I'm sure 90% of the time they faced in the wrong direction, necessitating "crane shunting" by hand. You can't do that in real life (yes, I know about coal and ore tipplers, but that's different!)
Yes, the Tweetsie is the East Tennessee and Western NC.
The East Broad Top's standard gauge switchers had narrow gauge couplers on both ends, but they were to one side of the standard gauge couplers. IIRC to the right as you faced the the front of the loco and to the left at the rear, as the yard was three rail with (again IIRC) the common rail on the west side, and separate 3' and standard gauge rails on the east side. Because the couplers were fixed the switchers had to operate "smoke stack North" when switching narrow gauge cars, so the front and rear narrow gauge couplers aligned with the centre of the narrow gauge cars, which was a little to the west of centre for standard gauge cars. This wasn't too much of a problem as most mixed gauge operation was within the confines of Mount Union Yard.
PD
[ 28. January 2010, 00:31: Message edited by: PD ]
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
I hope it's not considered junior hosting to copy the following from the Northern (England) thread in Purgatory, but I didn't want to reply to it there and derail (almost literally) the debate.
Originally posted by PD:
quote:
Actually Manchester-Sheffield, via the Hope Valley, is in pretty good shape and has an half-hourly service. The present journey time from Man Pic to Sheffield is 52 minutes which is pretty similar to the Man Pic-Leeds via Huddersfield timing.
and I replied
quote:
52 minutes for not much more than 30 miles for either journey is lamentable though. The criminal closure of the (electrified) Woodhead route should be rectified asap.
PD said quote:
The old main road over Woodhead was 41 miles city-centre to city-centre. The two rail routes from Manchester to Sheffield were 41.75 miles (Woodhead), and 43.75 miles (Hope Valley line). Of the two Woodhead had the sharper curves and steeper gradients. The best Man Pic to Sheffield Vic time was 55 minutes. To reopen Woodhead would involve reactivating Sheffield Vic, a new two level Station at Nunnery Jct, an expensive North to West curve at the same location, or a time consuming reversal into Sheffield Midland. Couple that to the loss of easy connections to trains to Birmingham, Cardiff, Crewe, and the Potteries at Stockport and the case for reopening Woodhead just does not exist other than as part of a High Speed line based on a revival of the old Great Central mainline between London and Manhester - which I would be all in favour of.
However, the Hope Valley line could be improved with modern signalling, and the elimination of some pinch points such as the single lead junctions at Dore and Hazel Grove. Given that the Manchester-Sheffield service alternate between Liverpool to East Anglia, and Manchester Airport to Grimsby/Cleethorpes trains, electrification - other than as part of a massive regional wiring - would serve no useful purpose other than isolating the route from the rest of the system at the east end. That lack of an electrified connection at the east end was a contributory factor to Woodhead's demise.
PD
[ 30. January 2010, 14:31: Message edited by: PD ]
I bow to your greater knowledge of the rail systems in Sheffield and district (and the distances! I should have said 40 miles not 30).
Perhaps instead it would be better to electrify the Hope Valley Line, especially as there are plans to electrify the Midland main line from St Pancras to Sheffield, and (more immediately) from Manchester to Liverpool - albeit via Newton le Willows rather than Warrington which is the current route for transpennine trains.
Maybe this is relevant to the discussion in Purg: there will soon be virtually no main lines out of London unelectrified, while the major secondary routes like Manchester to Sheffield and Leeds still rely on noisy and polluting diesel units. So either the trains serving these will be cut back (as was the Orient Express) to a rump service, or extended at either end 'under the wires' which is a horrendous practice too often done (see how many trains on the ECML consist of DMUs).
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
|
Posted
Since we are on the subject, which railway lines would you like to see reopened/rebuilt and why?
I'll open the bidding with the stretch of the B&M (Brecon & Merthyr) between Caerffili and Machen. And, before anybody comments, I know that the stretch in question is nowhere near either Brecon or Merthyr ~ in spite of their name, most of the Railway's revenue came from the section of railway between Newport and Dowlais. In point of fact, the section from which the railway took its title was very nearly never built at all, but that's another story entirely.
My reason for wanting to see that piece of line rebuilt is that it would open up the possibility of travelling to Newport (and therefore to all points East) without having to go through Cardiff, a station that can be very busy. There would also be considerable commuter potential on the route from Caerffili to Newport. There has been talk (at a local level) of the line being reinstated, but talk is all it has been so far. Much of the route still exists as a freight-only route, serving Lower Machen Quarry, whilst the formation of the remainder is largely intact.
One can but hope ...
--------------------
If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
|
Posted
I'd settle for a resumption of the old Atlantic Limited route through Saint John, but that would depend on having some faint rationale about transit across Maine. The American border has become an absolute rat's nest of paranoia, so it ain't gonna happen.
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
I want restoration of service on the CP mainline out west.
Mr. Flaherty's Gravy Train will be nice if we can get it in Peterborough. Of course that is really just a cover for building the Pickering Airport.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
PD
Shipmate
# 12436
|
Posted
Trouble is that the UK is close to the point of running out of lines with the traffic density to be electrified in isolation. By the time they have done Paddington to Bristol/Cardiff and the Midland Mainline you are left with Edinburgh - Glasgow via Falkirk, and some add on electrifications such as Sheffield to Leeds via Doncaster, the Matlock branch, which would be relatively cheap to do. The next batch of electrification projects are going to be complex, and require some major restructuring of traffic patterns. Glasgow and Edinburgh to Aberdeen and Dyce probably has the best economic case, followed by North Trans-Pennine. The fly in the former ointment is whether or not there is an economic case for electrifying Stirling to Dundee via Perth. NTP will require some route restructuring, which may be unpopular, and a very benign financing regime to come to pass.
PD
[ 30. January 2010, 23:16: Message edited by: PD ]
--------------------
Roadkill on the Information Super Highway!
My Assorted Rantings - http://www.theoldhighchurchman.blogspot.com
Posts: 4431 | From: Between a Rock and a Hard Place | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
Might I point out two things. please?
1. Electrified lines are not "non-polluting" unless the electricity is generated by hydropower or a renewable source. (Some might add nuclear into that list - that depends on how you define "pollution"). Otherwise all they are doing is moving the pollution from the train to the power station.
Admittedly the latter is probably a more efficient source of power than on-board diesels, and electric trains may also be lighter and simpler (=less power required), on the other hand they need infrastructure which will create pollution as it is built.
2. On our line here in Ipswich (Great Eastern) many of our problems are due to catenary failure. Some of it - at present being replaced - was originally built by the LNER just post-War and for 1500 DC, a lot of the rest dates from around 1960. Some people here would prefer diesel traction, I suspect! (This also applies to the East Coast mainline where the electrification, though much newer, was done "on the cheap" and isn't as reliable as it should be, or so I understand).
[ 31. January 2010, 13:44: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Lines to be re-opened or lines that should never have been closed? Even if one accepts that the network was over-luxuriant in the 1950s (which I only half do, but can see the reasoning) and that nobody had ever tidied up a lot of inconveniences that did not make sense when there weren't lots of separate companies any more (which I do accept), there's quite a few glaring omissions from the current network.
Everyone has their own favorites but here's some which strike me as uncontroversial.
Uckfield to Lewes - obvious.
Bangor to Afon Wen - again obvious, but I suspect closed on the assumption that the line to Pwllheli wasn't going to survive either.
Stratford to the junction with the OWW east of Honeybourne - but not on from there to Cheltenham which probably shouldn't have been built in the first place.
Bodmin Road to Padstow - assumed to be two different lines.
Matlock to Buxton and Peak Forest - London-centric assumption that this was just a surplus line from London to Manchester rather than a link between the East Midlands and the North West; now sadly almost impossible to reinstate becasue of the objections there would be to putting a low bridge across a trunk road.
Edinburgh to Hawick - I hope that gets rebuilt, but I don't think there's much case now for the line on from there to Carlisle.
Pickering to Malton - again obvious.
Norton Fitzwarren to Bishops Lydeard with regular through running - track still in place, but resisted with excuse of an agreement with bus unions where the drivers affected must have all retired long ago.
Lines to be electrified - I put Bristol to Doncaster and Leeds ahead of a lot of the others, and also some solution - either high speed loco haulage or high speed electrodiesel to the distasteful sight of fuel guzzling diesel units running under wires with current in them.
If I was doing that I'd also extend Lichfield to Burton and reopen to passenger traffic the link there which is only a mile or two long and used for diversions etc.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
I take your point about electrical power producing pollution in its generation. However, it is possible for less-polluting sources to be used (as you point out), whereas a train which carries its (polluting) fuel and engines around with it is never going to be environmentally friendly. Also electric trains are cleaner (at point of use), quieter and quicker. And I hate diesels!
PD's point about stand-alone electrification schemes is important. At present, for example, North Transoennine runs from Liverpool to Scarborough (presumably because there aren't enough paths on the ECML to go to Newcastle, which would be much more useful for more people). Electrification of Liverpool-Manchester via Warrington (as well as the already-agreed L&M line), Manchester to Leeds and York, could both be justified by traffic density. But York to Scarborough wouldn't be justified on its own.
However, the alternatives would be a York-Scarborough diesel shuttle, or expensive dual-mode trains, or diesels running under the wires for the greater part of the journey.* Whereas in most of mainland Europe, the equivalent trunk routes would have been electrified years ago, and a comparable route to York-Scarborough would be unlikely to remain a diesel service.
It's a sad culture we've got ourselves into in this country. Why are we so behind compared to the French, Germans, Spanish and even the Italians? Don't even mention the Swiss.
*Or of course, as also happens in other countries, loco-hauled stock which can switch from diesel or even steam to electric when necessary.
[cross-posted: this is a reply to Baptist Trainfan)
[ 31. January 2010, 14:05: Message edited by: Angloid ]
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
Replying to Enoch:
Skipton to Colne (active pressure group working to reinstate this: it's a comparatively short stretch of line but a vital link between Yorkshire and East Lancashire)
The Burscough curves linking Southport-Wigan to Ormskirk-Preston: a serious proposal has been made but how soon if ever it might go ahead is the question.
The Liverpool -Edge Hill to Bootle line via Tue Brook and Walton: at present carries freight traffic to the docks but could also be a valuable urban commuter line. It would be a better use of resources than the proposed (but still clinging-on-for-life) Merseytram scheme.
Two Yorkshire towns which could be reconnected to the rail system are Otley and Ripon. I'm not sure how much infrastructure survives in either case, but if either of them were in the South East they would never have lost their trains.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
|
Posted
I don't think you can assume they would never have been closed if they were in the South East (outside London.)
The iconic missing 'South East' / South Midlands / East Anglia route is the Oxford-Cambridge and East-West related lines.
Some progress in the pipeline. Chiltern Railways, who are part-owned by the German railways and therefore seem to be able to actually get things done, are proposing to take over Oxford-Bicester and link to the line to Marylebone via High Wycombe. They have also built Aylesbury Vale Parkway, a first step towards reopening the line to Bletchley / Milton Keynes.
There's also the Milton Keynes platform that was supposed to take the Bedford-Bletchley lines.
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by FreeJack:
I don't think you can assume they would never have been closed if they were in the South East (outside London.)
You may be right. I wondered if that was a bit of unjustified northern prejudice on my part. Though I can't think of any towns of comparable size in the SE that have been completely removed from the rail network, as opposed to being deprived of useful connections. Wells of course is the southern counterpart of Ripon: a small cathedral city ten miles from the nearest station. But that's in the south-west, well away from London commuting distance.
--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Curiously, when I was doing my list, I very nearly included the missing bit of the Leeds Northern on from Harrogate through Ripon to Northallerton, but felt I didn't know enough about traffic demands in the area to comment. I would have thought Otley also makes good sense.
Round here, there's a long running argument as to why if Portishead now has heavy freight, it can't ahve a passenger service too, particularly as the line goes virtually through a motorway junction which would be an ideal site for a Park and Ride. I also think keepings a bus shelter like stub down to Clevedon would have made sense, and possibly the other way as far as Wells, even if keeping the rest of the circle might not have done.
There was a proposal in the sixties to turn the line from Oxford to Cambridge into part of an orbital freight route. BR built a very expensive fly over at Bletchley. When the passenger service did exist, it was slow, and like so many services in those days the connections were never much good. At Bedford, of course, it wasn't even the same station.
I don't know how much of the formation east or west of Sandy could be retrieved now.
There also used to be quite a good cross country link from Peterborough to Rugby and then Birmingham, which was quite fast.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
|
Posted
Putting back Otley’s railway link does indeed make good sense, but where would it go? The problem is that the formation was used to build the A660 main road (bypass) south of the town. You could perhaps put a line from the former junction at Arthington (on the Harrogate line) through Pool and to a station by the roundabout on the aforementioned road just south-east of the town. Alternatively you could build a shorter link to the electrified Ilkley branch to a site by the roundabout south-west of the town You’d be really stuck, though, if the aim was to have a station anywhere near where Otley station used to be.
There are similar problems, particularly at Ripon, if an attempt is made to put back the Harrogate-Ripon-Northallerton route. My former boss has been involved, since retiring, in trying to achieve just that! I agree with his friend the author Martin Bairstow who reckoned (see his 'Railways around Harrogate' books, one of which is co-written with my ex-boss) that if that route had stayed open it might have been wise to use the Ripon-Thirsk route rather than the Ripon-Northallerton bit.
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
I think there are a few lines in the southeast that should not have closed. (Finsbury Park) - Highgate-Alexandra Palace was going to be part of the Underground but the war intervened and did it close. The proposed arrangement would have been a timetabling nightmare but the Highgate-Ally Pally bit should not have been closed.
In the same area Palace Gates - Seven Sisters might have ben useful, though less so - I think it was really a Great Eastern attempt to muscle in on Great Northern territory. Both these lines were run down by BR into a most unattractive service (peak-hours only).
Of course there are lines which, when they were closed, were in places that seemed unlikely to attract traffic but, since then, have experienced a lot of development. One that comes to mind are the Buntingford branch which, had it survived, would undoubtedly have had a revival as at Braintree. Also the Hurn branch at Bournemouth and possibly the old "Corkscrew" line through Ringwood.
And what about Watford-Rickmansworth?
[ 01. February 2010, 10:35: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alaric the Goth
Shipmate
# 511
|
Posted
Another Yorkshire example is the Wetherby-Leeds route, which branched off the Leeds Selby/York line east of Crossgates. Loads of folk would be likely to commute to Leeds by train from Wetherby and intermediate stations were it still open. In fact I'd be very tempted to live in Wetherby myself if it were still rail-connected. Part of the route may indeed reopen, but only a couple of miles. Again the problem of subsequent building on the trackbed rears its ugly head.
Posts: 3322 | From: West Thriding | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
Some lines I'd like to see reopened:
Birmingham Snow Hill - Wolverhampton Low Level (in place of Midland Metro). A valuable diversionary route, as well as serving Black Country towns. Won't happen though, due to development on the site of Wolves LL and the aformentioned Metro.
Stourbridge Junction - Walsall via Dudley. Would be a key freight route if connected back into Bescot yard (whiuch would only require a few lengths of rail to be relaid), and Dudley is one of the largest towns in the country with no rail connection.
Kings Norton - Birmingham. Already a key freight and diversionary route, but it runs through some major Birmingham districts that would benefit greatly from improved transport links.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And what about Watford-Rickmansworth?
The lines are still there and electrified and in use. Mostly to move trains in and out of the Watford (Met) branch into the sidings at Rickmansworth. It is used in passenger service for a couple of these trains at about 5.45am and 12.45am at the start and end of passenger service for connections.
While changing at Moor Park might be irritating the overall frequency makes it bearable. I would guess that reinstating and extending the half-length bay platform (for steam train changeovers originally?) at Ricky would be necessary for a regular service to be convenient for signalling.
More use will be the proposed extension from Croxley to Watford High Street and Junction.
And the regular straight through trains from Chesham are an improvement too.
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
|
Posted
There was a passing reference to Pickering and Malton upthread.
In Canadian terms, this is just a reminder that we have no rail access to any Canadian airport. In the Toronto case, whether it is the pie-in-the-sky Pickering, or the present chaotic jumble at pearson or the old Malton which was usefully close to the city, there is no worthwhile public access that doesn't involve miles of driving around. For Montreal, Dorval has two main lines across the south end of the airport, but the terminals are miles away, and Mirabel is still basically nowhere. And so it goes across the country.
If you don't drive or use specially-expensive shuttle busses, you ain't gonna fly - which might be a good thing if you choose not to do it!
Not that passenger trains are particularly in evidence in Canada in the first place - that's SO 19th century, doncherknow?
Who said anything about energy or climate anyway?
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And what about Watford-Rickmansworth?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The lines are still there and electrified and in use.
I don't think we are talking about the same lines - I'm thinking of the LMS line from Watford High Street to Rickmansworth. This was ewlectrified under the LNWR "New Line" proposals and in fact the LMS bought some proper tube stock to run it. I'm not sure how long the electrification lasted but it closed in 1952.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
My apologies HB, but I was referring to a quite different Pickering and a quite different Malton. Malton is about half way between York and Scarborough on the East Coast of Yorkshire. A few miles outside it, a line used to turn left to go north to Whitby which is further up the coast. Pickering is on that line. At a place called Grosmont, another line comes in from the left which eventually after quite a lot of wandering goes to Middlesborough. That line is still there, but it means Whitby is only fairly easy to reach if you are in Leeds, York or Hull and haven't got a car, you've a long journey.
The section from Grosmont to Pickering is a particularly attractive preserved line, but Pickering is now a dead end.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
Actually, that was me going on about the Pickering (Ontario) Airport. Most town and county names in Ontario are named for the Old Sod, Toronto being an exception.
Canadian Pacific's Havelock Subdivision, the remnant of the old Ontario & Quebec Railway runs smack dab through the middle of the Pickering Airport lands.
The Hon. Jim Flaherty, MP for Whitby - Oshawa was all hot to trot last budget about spending money to reinstate passenger service on the Havelock Sub through north Durham to Peterborough under the auspices of GO Transit. Transit is not a federal responsibility, but airports are. The plans for the Pickering Airport clearly show a GO link. The one big change in Pickering Airport planning was that the 407 was built as a toll highway. The 407 was always going to be the Pickering Airport's main road access, so GO Train access would mollify opposition to relying on a toll road.
Dean Del Mastro, the MP for Peterborough has even had his staffers out making the rounds of community meetings trying to get support to reconnect the full Ontario & Quebec route from Peterborough to Ottawa. On the claim that the Grand Trunk route by the lake is full.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
|
Posted
I know that Pickering and Malton are deeply embedded in that upper-middle part of England, but, as SPK has pointed out, the names show up over here as well (the joys of Empire, however faded) and the association was irresistible.
You guys can talk endlessly about very minor lines being used with some intensity, and we can't get train service as much as once a day in most of the country. (One train each way, six days a week in the entire land mass east of Quebec City, and, I believe, only three days a week in the whole space between North Bay and Jasper)
And under the leadership of He Who Must Be Obeyed, there won't be anything much more, since the use of trains won't increase the demand for tar sands oil. Flaherty and the poodle from Peterborough haven't got a chance.
[ 01. February 2010, 23:51: Message edited by: Horseman Bree ]
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
But building the Pickering Airport surely will drive up oil demand. Which is what the Gravy Train is meant to catalyze. The fact that Peterborough may see a benefit is merely incidental.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
|
Posted
I'd love to see Bargoed and Merthyr Tydfil reconnected, as it would save me from an hour on the Bws ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
I would also like to see the line that crossed Crumlin viaduct reopened, though the chances of this happening equals zero....The Heads of The Valleys line also would be nice!
Swansea to Hereford, via Brecon, would be handy as one could then reopen the Mid Wales railway and have a direct(ish) route from South-North Wales. Extending the Gwili Railway North and South, in a major way, would provide a link between Carmarthen and Aberwyswyth, which would be good, but the Vale of Rheidol would need to find a new Station!
--------------------
The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
FreeJack
Shipmate
# 10612
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
And what about Watford-Rickmansworth?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The lines are still there and electrified and in use.
I don't think we are talking about the same lines - I'm thinking of the LMS line from Watford High Street to Rickmansworth. This was ewlectrified under the LNWR "New Line" proposals and in fact the LMS bought some proper tube stock to run it. I'm not sure how long the electrification lasted but it closed in 1952.
The old tracks are now a cycle path, except that you can't get to the old Rickmansworth station - I had forgotten that one ever existed.
The proposal I was talking about uses the Croxley Green branch of the same line. Potentially much more useful in the region. We don't really need two railways from Watford to Rickmansworth.
Croxleyrail!
Posts: 3588 | Registered: Oct 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
I can see very good Plaid reasons for rebuilding Carmarthen to Aber, but I don't think it ever paid even when rail was the only form of transport. I believe it took the executors of the major owner years of persuasion to get the GWR to take it over.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I can see very good Plaid reasons for rebuilding Carmarthen to Aber, but I don't think it ever paid even when rail was the only form of transport. I believe it took the executors of the major owner years of persuasion to get the GWR to take it over.
Aye, that figures. It hardly runs through densely populated areas and it is hard to see how its construction was ever justified (let alone paid for) in the first place. I am guessing that it was a mania period railway. If not, I really cannot imagine how it ever came to be proposed in the first place, never mind built. There can never have been any serious traffic, even in the heyday of railways in Wales.
Even so, it would be nice to see it re-opened. Like the line from Wrexham through Dolgellau to Barmouth. Though there might be issues with the Bala Lake Railway people, who have built their toy railway on the formation ... ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
|
Posted
One line that I forgot about is the section between Coryton and Tongwynlais....this would serve a practical purpose, I believe, for commuters into Cardiff, as well as giving the English another word to struggle with! ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
--------------------
The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Is that the line that never opened because the Taff Vale wouldn't allow coal trains to use the junction at the top end?
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
|
Posted
That's the one.
--------------------
If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
Sounds a bit like the Caledonian's Spireslack branch. It was completed and fully signalled but never opened as the Glasgow & South Western would have demanded running powers over it. (You'd have thought the CR would have known that from the outset!) It had 3 viaducts which I believe were used for bombing target practice in WW2.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lord Pontivillian
Shipmate
# 14308
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Is that the line that never opened because the Taff Vale wouldn't allow coal trains to use the junction at the top end?
The majority of the line did open, up as far as Rhydfelin halt. There was a viaduct leading to the junction with the Taff Vale, at Rhydfelin, but it was only used once, on opening day.
The Cardiff Railway were trying to copy the Barry Railway and failed. The best they managed was when Nantgarw Colliery opened next to their tracks.
--------------------
The Church in Wales is Ancient, Catholic and Deformed - Typo found in old catechism.
Posts: 665 | From: Horsham | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
|
Posted
The closest parallel I can think of in North America is when the Denver & Rio Grande and the Atchison, Topeka & Santa Fe had a "war" between armed work gangs over possession of Raton Pass and the Royal Gorge Route in Colorado. The Santa Fe got Raton Pass and became a transcontinental line, traditionally the longest in the US. The Rio Grande got the Royal Gorge Route and turned into a Colorado mineral hauler and bridge route.
--------------------
NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Pontivillian:
The Cardiff Railway were trying to copy the Barry Railway and failed. The best they managed was when Nantgarw Colliery opened next to their tracks.
For the benefit of those for whom this remark is just a little too obscure, the Barry Railway were unusual in South Wales in that they were the same company that owned the docks to which the trains ran. Previous to the Barry system opening, all the railway companies had run trains down to docks that were owned by other companies and therefore had to share their profits with the docks companies. Obviously, the Barry Railway and Docks Company kept all of its profits in house, a situation reflected in its dividends on Ordinary Shares which, IIRC were never less than 10% throughout its independant existence.
The Bute Docks Company (ie, Cardiff Docks) recognised that here was a business model that they could use ~ if they conveyed the coal on their own trains ... So they built a railway line from Heath Junction on the Rhymney Railway and attempted to tap into the Rhondda coal being transported down the Taff Vale Railway to Cardiff Docks at Rhydfelin by lifting the traffic from the Taff Vale. Naturally enough, the Taff Vale were not keen on this idea and managed to block any traffic leaving their system to enter the Cardiff Railway by a legal technicality (which I believe was down to careless drafting of the Cardiff Railway's Act of Parliament). Thus the Cardiff Railway's attempt to emulate the Barry Railway failed.
It was not the only example. The Alexandra and Newport Docks and Railway Company (also known as the Pontypridd, Caerphilly and Newport Railway) attempted something of a similar sort as did (IIRC) the Port Talbot Railway. The P,C&N were impressive if only for their spectacular cheek. They actually owned very little railway line, less rolling stock and no locomotives ~ they got other people to do everything for them. Which probably explains why the venture did not turn in the huge profits they were expecting.
As for the Port Talbot Railway ~ well, had you even heard of them before you read this post? Says it all, really.
--------------------
If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
|
Posted
For the sake of accuracy, Lord P. just stopped by my desk and pointed out that the Barry Railway dividends actually dropped to 6% at one point, but that there was hell to pay at the share-holders' meeting, whereafter dividends never again dropped below 9%.
So now we know. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
--------------------
If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
A propos an earlier post, according to the Wikipedia entry on the line from Carmarthen to Aber, the Manchester and Milford also included a section of line that never really opened, from Llanidloes to Llangurig, which was to have connected to the rest of the line with a line over Plynlimon - or more likely, under, but never did.
According to the entry, it received one train.
Which is even more remarkable than the two stations between Towcester and Olney, which received passenger trains for four months in 1892-3, although that line did continue to carry freight.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
Down here in Suffolk we have the erstwhile Mid-Suffolk railway's branch to Debenham - built (but not finished) in 1906 or thereabouts, a few goods trains did run but the line was never officially opened. Track was lifted by 1912.
Strangely, this branch has left one of the few tangible remains of the "Middy" in the shape of some bridge abuments a couple of miles north of Debenham on the road to Eye.
There has been a recreation of the railway on the site of Brockford station - well worth a visit and the only full-size steam railway in the county. (The East Anglian Railway Museum is just over the border in Essex).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Metapelagius
Shipmate
# 9453
|
Posted
The Manchester and Milford - a prize example of Victorian exuberant ambition that got no nearer to Milford Haven than Carmarthen, no nearer to Manchester than Penpontbren, with a large gap between the two blocked by the Welsh massif central...
Another short lived line that actually did get some use but is now long forgotten is the Great Chesterford and Newmarket Railway - effectively a 'Cambridge by-pass' branching off the Great Eastern main line . Opened in 1848, much of it closed in 1851 when an alternative line to Cambridge was completed - a more useful destination for passengers from Newmarket.
--------------------
Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.
Posts: 1032 | From: Hereabouts | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Another forgotten line in East Anglia is that what eventually became the M&GN originally ran from Fakenham into King's Lynn itself instead of to South Lynn.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
|
Posted
There are a number of American airports linked to central cities by rail. O'Hare and Midway Airports in Chicago are linked by the Chicago Transit Authority subway/elevated cars. San Francisco International is linked to downtown San Francisco through the BART system. Atlanta Airport is linked via the MARTA system. Philadelphia International Airport is linked via the SEPTA system. (I am sure that I am missing some, but all of these links have terminals within the airport, as opposed to a terminal requiring a bus/shuttle train connection, as is the case with JFK and the Airtrain in New York, which does not go directly to Manhattan.)
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
Airlink in Newark, NJ links Amtrak with Newark International Airport -- but why did they make the cars so tiny? At least JFK's Airlink did it right.
One of my favorites is getting to Washington's Reagan International via the Metro. It stops almost right in the terminal itself!
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
daviddrinkell
Shipmate
# 8854
|
Posted
Glasgow Prestwick - almost a time-warp from the 60s with very few flights - nevertheless has a railway station of its own.
--------------------
David
Posts: 1983 | From: St. John's, Newfoundland | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
|
Posted
Last night, too late for me to post, I got a letter from my aunt by email. She mentioned construction work on her trip to Pretoria. She also happened to mention it was for the Guatrain and I thought people on this thread might be interested.
Jengie
--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
Thanks Jengie. That's interesting.
Unlike the rest of the South African system, it appears to be standard gauge.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
LA Dave
Shipmate
# 1397
|
Posted
Amanda: Thanks for reminding us about the Metro line to Reagan National. Very convenient.
There is talk of extending the Green Line in Los Angeles to LAX. Unfortunately, when the line was built in the 1990s, it ended short of the airport, requiring a shuttle bus. That also was true of the Blue Line of the CTA, which was stopped a few miles short of O'Hare for years. I think that the Taxi lobby may have been behind that. It is a wonderful alternative to the Kennedy Expressway.
Posts: 981 | From: Take a guess | Registered: Sep 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
